(11 years ago)
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Baroness Afshar
To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in the light of the recent elections in Iran, what steps they are taking to facilitate closer commercial and educational ties with that country.
Baroness Afshar (CB)
My Lords, I am grateful for this opportunity to speak about the country where I was born, and I thank noble Lords who are participating in this debate and speaking. I would like to raise a few points before the negotiations between the countries start again, in the hope that they might be used as relevant points by the negotiators.
Negotiations between Iran and the six powers in Geneva seem to have been very optimistically received. The noble Baroness, Lady Ashton, the EU’s top foreign policy official, has described them as “substantive and forward-looking”. Iran’s top nuclear negotiator, Mohammad Javad Zarif, has spoken of the possibility of achieving a satisfactory outcome in the next six months. I add my voice to those of the educationalists and economists in the UK who have also welcomed this rapprochement. The UK in general, and the education sector in particular, would benefit from the easing of sanctions. This could be a win-win for all concerned, provided that there is understanding and appreciation of the difficulties on the way.
Education is one of the most effective means of building long-term trust among nations and individuals. It is hardly surprising that it is Ayatollah Rouhani, a graduate of Glasgow Caledonian University, who started the negotiations and secured a level of agreement from the spiritual leader of Iran. Students make a significant contribution economically, academically and intellectually, in terms of building understanding across divides that sometimes prove difficult to cross otherwise.
However, there is a real problem in the banking system as it stands and as it has operated in the decades since the imposition of sanctions. It has been a serious impediment. Students who have been offered places—who are more than willing to pay the fees and health taxes that might be imposed in the future and have the money ready—cannot find a bank in the UK willing to open an account for them. I know of students who have lived in Canada for more than 10 years but who, because they are Iranian, cannot even transmit money from Canada to the UK to start discussions. That seems to result in universities saying that their hands are tied because they cannot proceed with the processes. The University of Sheffield, for example, has been working in Iran and has offices there offering scholarships to Iranian students with exceptional academic potential. Many Iranians, particularly women, have such potential aplenty.
The difficulty is not only that the students cannot open accounts; a further problem is when those students who are already in this country and have accounts here go on fieldwork trips and come back, they find that they have to reopen the same accounts and provide the same information all over again. In the case of one of my students, who made two field trips, this had to be done twice.
These kinds of obstacles make students less willing to apply to British universities. The measures are highly counterproductive and the Government should come to the rescue of these students because, as we all know, most if not all British universities are heavily dependent on foreign student fees in order to bridge the gap created by the cuts. Last year, banking restrictions also resulted in Iran abandoning its conversion rate for foreign students, which gave favourable rates to students studying abroad, particularly in the UK. Now, it is much more expensive for Iranian students to raise the same fees in Iran.
Banking restrictions have also resulted in very serious medical problems in Iran because pharmaceutical companies cannot import the necessary ingredients for producing medication at affordable prices. This has resulted in the deaths of hundreds of people. Political prisoners have even written an open letter asking for the lifting of sanctions. They point out what I have pointed out in the House before: namely, that sanctions only make the rich richer and the poor poorer. It is not the rich who suffer from the sanctions—they get their medication, they come abroad for treatment—but those who are living in Iran. The situation is dire, which is another reason that Iranians are extremely keen to enter negotiations and for them to be successful.
The prospect of detente has already resulted in the freeing of a number of political prisoners: 11 were freed a month ago. They included Nasrin Sotoudeh, the campaigning human rights lawyer and winner of the European Parliament’s 2012 Sakharov Prize for Freedom of Thought, and the reformist politician Mohsen Aminzadeh. A week later, on the eve of President Rouhani’s visit to the USA, 80 more political prisoners were freed, some of whom had been jailed after the mass protests triggered by the fraud- tainted re-election of former President Ahmadinejad in 2009. Last week, more political prisoners were pardoned. The hope is that this process will continue and accelerate.
A rapprochement would be extremely beneficial to the UK. The Iranian economy has not died during this period. In fact, many projects have been set up, including mining, construction, chemical production, car manufacturing and packaging, and are thriving. But the sanctions have resulted in trade relations moving towards Russia and the East, rather than the West. In 2010 China became Iran’s largest trading partner. In 2011 trade between Dubai and Iran was valued at $13.6 billion. Last year Iran’s largest car maker agreed to send 10,000 cars per annum to Russia.
To circumvent the banking restriction, trading partners use hawala, a system of exchanging money without the money ever leaving the country. It is a system completely dependent on trust, in which the bank uses a country that trades favourably with both trading partners. The current favourite is Japan. The Iranian bank leaves money in a bank in Iran and Japan uses its debts to Iran to provide money in any currency to a trading partner on the other side. So trade has continued; it has not diminished. This could be a profit that the UK is missing.
I shall end by mentioning nuclear power and chemical weapons. I am no expert in these matters, but the facts that the Iranians are offering to keep only two nuclear programmes in Natanz and argue that they have no chemical weapons are worth considering. Iran was attacked with chemical weapons. The havoc that caused means that no Iranian would allow them to be used against anyone, not even their enemy.
Lord Lamont of Lerwick (Con)
My Lords, I refer to my entry in the Register of Members’ Interests. I am the unpaid chairman of the British Iranian Chamber of Commerce and some years ago I was a director of companies that did business with Iran. I assure the Committee that I have no direct commercial or financial interests in Iran, although I work for a company whose main shareholder has interests in Iran.
For the avoidance of doubt, I will say that I absolutely condemn the abuses of human rights in Iran and recognise the concern over them. Only this week, Dr Shaheed, the UN monitor of human rights in Iran, highlighted and condemned the continued detention of human rights activists, journalists and the leaders of the green movement. However, as the noble Baroness, Lady Afshar said, 500 Iranian intellectuals wrote an open letter. Eighty of them were or had been in prison. They said that the election of President Rouhani had produced a significant change in the climate, that things were changing and that they felt the offer Rouhani had made ought to be responded to by the West. That was the way they put it.
I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Afshar, on initiating this debate. I entirely agree with what she said about cultural exchanges. I am also involved in the Iran Heritage Foundation, which exists to do precisely what she described. For example, it was involved in helping set up two major exhibitions in the British Museum and in taking the scroll of Cyrus back to Iran. The Foreign Office advised that it would be stolen by the Iranians, but we went ahead and did it, and it was returned on time and generated a lot of good will.
I believe that the election of President Rouhani was a significant event to which we should pay great attention. In that election, the economic needs of Iran and foreign policy became one issue. People were very dissatisfied with the state of the Iranian economy and wanted relations with the West to improve.
Despite Prime Minister Netanyahu saying that it is the same old thing with a smile, I do not believe for one minute that President Rouhani could have said the sort of things he said with eloquence in the television debates without meaning them and without intending to try to bring change to Iran. His spoke about the use of social media and greater freedom for individuals, and just 48 hours ago made a speech about freedom in universities. Above all in his comments, he spoke about transparency in the nuclear programme.
There are some people who say that sanctions have brought this about, and therefore that we should continue with them, not relax them. That would be a huge error. People wanted change, but polls show that there is considerable public support for the nuclear programme and that people blame the absence of medicines—something that was highlighted by the UN human rights monitor at the UN this week—on sanctions and foreign powers.
Israel has made it quite clear that it does not want an agreement between the West and Iran. I suspect that it would prefer a country which is beyond the pale. It does not want a large country in the Middle East that has normal or near-normal relations with the United States. Other Gulf states have voiced their anxiety, and although they are our good friends—they invest here, they lend us money—I hope that people will realise that they, too, have their own domestic political reasons for promoting the image of Iran as a threat to them, and that religious prejudice is not always in one direction only. I do not believe that Iran has any territorial designs on any country; I do believe that it has its own security concerns.
People often try to read the mind of Mr Khamenei. I think you need to know only one thing about Mr Khamenei. Before he became the Supreme Leader he was President for two terms. During that entire time he was a president at war—a war in which 500,000 people either lost their lives or were seriously wounded. People do not recognise that Iran is, militarily, a very weak country. I think it was General Petraeus who pointed out the other day that the entire air force of Iran could probably be wiped out in 24 hours by that of the UAE, although we continue to sell arms to the UAE for reasons I sometimes find difficult to understand.
Is a deal possible? There are a number of points that need to be considered. First, obviously, we need the maximum transparency and rigorous inspection. The additional protocol has to be signed by Iran, meaning that inspectors can request to go anywhere in the country. Then there is the big issue of the timescale. The Iranians want a quick deal. They talk of six months. Of course, they want quick relief from sanctions. However, quick relief from sanctions does not mean that there could not be an extended period, perhaps lasting five years or so, in which the suspension of sanctions was conditional or dependent on Iran continuing to honour the undertakings that it made with regard to its nuclear programme.
Then you have the issue of the size of Iran’s enrichment programme. The Israelis say that it should be dismantled completely. I think it is clear that that is unacceptable to the Iranians. I do not pretend to have any nuclear expertise but I have spent quite a bit of time talking to people who have. I believe that by taking measures to deal with capacity, output and the type of centrifuges involved, it would be possible to define the breakout period. The breakout period is what concerns Israel: that is, the time it would take to break out from a civilian programme to manufacture a weapon. That period has to be long enough so that the West can identify and respond to it. I believe that that could be identified.
I do not believe that Iran will accept that there should be an end to all enrichment in that country. That would be very difficult for it to accept politically, and very difficult for it to justify after all the suffering from sanctions and all the billions that have been spent on it. However, its programme should be related to what its need for nuclear electricity is likely to be. We threw away opportunities in the past: in 2003 and 2005. Even the Israeli Defence Minister said yesterday that he believed Iran was genuine in wanting a deal. Israel may be opposed to it, but he said that Iran was genuine in that belief and aspiration. I hope that we will not repeat the mistakes we made when President Khatami was in power.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)
Just before the noble Baroness gets to her feet, I would like to remind all speakers that this is a time-limited debate. When the Clock shows seven minutes, remarks should be concluded.
Baroness Williams of Crosby (LD)
My Lords, I very much agree with what has already been said by the noble Baroness, Lady Afshar, and I congratulate her on calling this timely debate. I also strongly support what was said by my noble friend Lord Lamont, who was absolutely right in suggesting that it is perfectly possible to now open negotiations with Iran on a serious basis. I add only one thing to what he said about that, which is that Iran has already suggested that it could move away from the 20% refinement figure across the front, where it started moving in that direction, and back to the 5% which is compatible with civilian uses of nuclear power. That should be carefully tested, investigated and discussed so that we can find out how much credence there is in what has already been said.
The only other point that I will make is that it is difficult to look at a country like Iran and not recognise that it has profound reasons to be frightened of being attacked. We tend to forget in this country that the Iran-Iraq war brought, as my noble friend said, 500,000 casualties. That is a rather modest figure; my understanding is that it was probably more like 800,000, of which the larger proportion was Iranian casualties. Why? Because only Iraq used chemical weapons; Iran never resorted to them. Iraq used both sarin and mustard gas, which are long-standing and extremely agonising forms of chemical weaponry. It can fairly be said that there is not a single country in the world, not even Syria, which has suffered as much from the use of chemical weapons as Iran. Despite that, Iran has never attempted to build up chemical weapons. Compared to the huge reserves of 10,000 tonnes that we know Syria has, the core of the matter is that Iran has never moved in that direction. It has repeatedly said that it regards chemical weapons as totally unacceptable.
On a more general note, I understand that up until now, the United Nations has not sent an invitation to Iran to take part in the Geneva II negotiations which are likely to happen later this year or, at the very latest, early next spring. I find that puzzling given that Iran is the second-greatest regional power in the whole area, and also given that it is seen as an ally by Syria. Assad has not said himself that he will go to any Geneva II negotiations, but there is surely reason to believe that if his closest ally, Iran, is there, he is much more likely to go than if it is not there. Perhaps my noble friend Lady Warsi will tell us something about the prospects for Geneva II including Iran as one of the countries sitting round the table. It is vital because, like it or not, Iran is seen by the whole of the Shia group of Muslims throughout the world as being the lead country. Therefore, its non-presence would almost certainly undermine the value of those negotiations.
I will say two other things before turning to one or two practical ideas that could be used to create a much closer and mutually constructive relationship with Iran. I fully share what has already been said by the noble Baroness, Lady Afshar, and the noble Lord, Lord Lamont, on the subject of issues that can be taken up and used in this respect. The first thing I will say is that there is a colossal misunderstanding about Iran in the West. I will take just one example, as a woman Member of the House of Lords. It is widely believed in large parts of the United States that Iran is rather like Saudi Arabia: that women walk around fully veiled, are not allowed to drive cars, have no education and are deeply and profoundly suppressed. Not so. Some 55% of undergraduates in Iran at the present time are women, and there are large numbers of women at the very top of both the legal and medical professions.
I completely share what was said by both previous speakers about human rights. We absolutely need to insist that Iran lives up to the highest standards of human rights and that it releases more—indeed, ultimately all—its prisoners who have not been tried. It is vital that we better understand that this great civilisation is not the same as some of the excesses that one sees in other countries. Incidentally, the widely held belief that Iran is Arab is also completely misleading. The fact that it is multifaceted in religious terms is an important point to make. There are still active members of the Zoroastrian community in Iran, which is an ancient civilisation.
Practically, what can we do? I suggest that there are three areas where we could create much better relations with Iran without damaging in any way the serious considerations that have to be brought to bear on such things as nuclear weapons and so forth. First, the noble Baroness, Lady Afshar, mentioned the possibility of much closer relations with universities. My noble friend Lord Phillips of Sudbury recently went to the University of Isfahan, which is a very famous and ancient university, and also to the University of Tehran. In both cases he was told very strongly that they would welcome a much closer relationship with a matching United Kingdom university. They did not specify which ones, but they made it clear that they would be wide open to such proposals.
There is another serious issue which involves the universities. That is, as some noble Lords in the Room already know, that there is a very serious incidence of drug-related tuberculosis in Zahedan, in the south-eastern part of Iran. I will spell it for Hansard. I am not sure I have pronounced it right. The important point is that drug-related TB is not a respecter of borders. It crosses them very happily. We know from our own experience of drug-related tuberculosis among some migrants to Britain how crucial it is to try to deal with this at the source. Iran comes second only to India in the incidence of drug-related TB. We have in Britain university departments that are highly instructed about and knowledgeable about drug-related TB. This is, again, an obvious win-win example of what can be done.
Secondly—and I now look firmly at the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Ripon and Leeds, who will be surprised that I address him—I strongly believe that a group of religious leaders from Britain would be very welcome in Iran and would do a great deal to bridge the gap between us and this strange country, which is rather like the Holy Roman Empire, in that it is at once both a religious and a political entity. I have always been puzzled why the great advantage that the Church of England has in this respect, as a state-based religion, could not be used to create much closer relations with Iran.
My final point is very important. We have in this Room—I invited him as a guest—Professor Lightfoot, who is the leader of the co-ordinating organisation of international research into disease surveillance. He has set up, all over the world, networks of people looking at surveillance of a disease and how it moves across the world. He has just been approached by Iran, Armenia, Georgia, and other countries with a view to setting up a regional network. I can think of nothing better—less objectionable, politically speaking—than to set up such a—
Baroness Williams of Crosby
I will be finished in a moment. There could be nothing better than to set up an international network of this kind and to support Iran’s being part of it. I commend the idea to the Minister.
The Lord Bishop of Ripon and Leeds
My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Afshar, for initiating this debate and for introducing it so comprehensively. I am aware, through contacts, of Iranian students in Leeds and of some of the difficulties of which noble Lords have been speaking in terms of their education and the way that that has developed, and of the struggle to keep them at Leeds University.
Like others, I have been heartened by the change of political rhetoric following the elections in Iran, and share the high expectations that a more pragmatic stance from Tehran will see progress made on a range of issues, not least the nuclear issues. In view of the speed of recent diplomatic developments and the ambitious timetable set at this month’s talks in Geneva—the six to nine months to which a number of noble Lords have already referred—it would be helpful to have some idea from the Minister as to what she understands to be the end game. What would a normalisation of relations look like? What might be the trade-offs that each party might be required to make? That seems to be at the heart of the question that the noble Baroness has put before us today.
I will take up the references that have been made to issues of human rights in Iran. I want to see progress on the nuclear issue, but I am conscious that in any trade-off we could see a weakening of the Government’s commitment to secure progress on other fronts, particularly that of human rights. Iran appears to be preparing a receptive response to inquiries from international oil and gas companies, in the expectation of the lifting of EU sanctions. That may well be right, and it may well be the direction in which we ought to go. However, it seems premature until we have more in the way of assurances and evidence that human rights will be more respected in Iran than they have been.
I am not yet convinced that a change in Iran’s human rights agenda will come with the Rouhani presidency, because critical decisions continue to be made by the Supreme National Security Council. This remains populated by a cohort of people who spent much of their careers in the military and security services. I listened hard to the arguments, both in this debate and earlier, that Iran has no regional ambitions, and about its place in the funding of rejectionist Palestinian entities. I am not yet convinced by these arguments. For me, there needs to be much clearer evidence of a new Iranian policy in the whole area, as well as new developments at home.
Has the Minister seen any change in the vulnerability experienced by religious and ethnic minorities in Iran, whether by Kurds in Iranian Kurdistan and in Iran, or by people of minority religions? From my own contacts with Iranians in Leeds, particularly those who have fled from Iran, I know that they certainly remain highly on edge as to exactly what the future will hold, for their families back in Iran as well as for themselves.
I am also concerned about the continued fate of the members of the Iranian resistance at Camp Ashraf and the misnamed Camp Liberty in Iraq. What evidence is there of any concern from the Iranian Government for those refugees? Whatever we make of responsibility for last month’s massacre at Camp Ashraf, what are the Government doing to provide for the safety and security of the women, men and children in those camps, whether by means of UN forces or otherwise?
I was grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, for her challenge on the relationships between the Christian churches here—perhaps the Church of England in particular—and Iranian religious leaders. I will take that back and see how we can develop some of those relationships. I absolutely agree with her that it is in discussions, and in deepening religious as well as academic and educational links, that we shall come to understand one another better. We would then be able to move in the sorts of directions that we have been talking about this afternoon.
I hope that the Government will give us a clearer idea of their strategy for balancing the range of competing concerns, so that we can make progress on the nuclear issue without losing sight of the wider picture. I look forward to developments as the discussions go on, especially in our concern for the upholding of human rights.
Lord Hylton (CB)
My Lords, I join in the thanks already expressed to the noble Baroness, Lady Afshar, for this debate. I start from the fact that the United States has had no diplomatic relations with Iran since 1979. This has moved me to argue for political détente. I will continue to do so, and I welcome of course the first small steps that Her Majesty’s Government have taken in this direction; for example, by exchanging non-resident chargés d’affaires and by the conversation between our Foreign Secretary and his Iranian counterpart in New York.
I hope that relations will continue to be improved step by step. There are two rather obvious reasons for doing so, the first being external and the other internal. Iran is in a position to be extremely helpful in other countries, particularly Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and Afghanistan. That is why, and as other speakers have mentioned, I would like to see Iran taking part at whatever level can be agreed in the second Geneva conference on Syria. I agree strongly with the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Crosby, on that.
The internal reason is that Iran is a diverse country, by no means monolithic. It contains Azeris, Kurds, Arabs and Balochis—to name only a few of the subgroups. Politically, there are hardline and more moderate clerics, just as there are Revolutionary Guards and pretty extreme politicians. The new president and his Government are somewhat different from the previous Administration. It is therefore important to give as much encouragement as possible to those who hold reasonable views and who care for the common good of the whole population. This has, we know, been much damaged by sanctions, a depreciating currency and rising prices. It is in our interest that the present Government should not be marginalised by their opponents.
Iran has some 75 million people and is therefore of a similar size to Egypt, recognised as the largest Arab country. The noble Baroness, Lady Afshar, is therefore quite right to ask for closer education links. My late mother’s cousin, Nancy Lambton, was for many years professor of Persian at London University. She and others created links which should be developed.
On commerce and trade, Iran could become an important market for our goods, services and expertise. Iranians whom I met just a few years ago in Isfahan were keen supporters of our football teams. We therefore have some goodwill on which to build. I acknowledge of course that major trade links may have to wait until progress has been made on the nuclear issue. I look forward to the Government’s thoughts on the possible means for achieving improved relations and greater détente—some of which, again, were outlined by the noble Baroness, Lady Williams.
Lord Triesman (Lab)
My Lords, this debate is happening at an important moment. I share President Obama’s assessment, echoed by my noble friend Lady Ashton on behalf of the EU, that President Hassan Rouhani is indeed reaching out. The recent exchanges on the nuclear programme, the exchanges of letters and the interface with our own Foreign Secretary are hopeful signs, but so far they are only signs. I therefore join others in thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Afshar, for hitting such a helpful moment to have this debate.
Anyone who knows the Iranian people or who has visited the country will be impressed by the energy and intellectual curiosity, particularly of young Iranians. Anyone who has ever taught Iranian students, as I have had the good fortune to do, will know exactly what I mean, and the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, made key points about the role of women in higher education which I wholly endorse. Iranians are inquiring, modern and hungry to engage with others; they are protective of their country, although that does not mean that they embrace theocratic rule or want to live in a social order resembling a caliphate—that is not true about them. Some are very brave. They faced repression, even if there are now limited changes.
It makes great sense to look at the two outward-facing windows that this debate suggests we look at which offer perhaps the best opportunities to build, for ordinary people, on the process of reaching out. Commercial links have understandably been impacted by economic sanctions. Sanctions were and, in my view, are essential until there is compliance with all United Nations decisions. They have had an impact and have had a much better effect than the alternative forms of intervention which some have advocated. It is easy to understand that the Iranians want them eased. The country is struggling under the current sanctions, not least because of the two-thirds decline in its oil exports, which account for some 50% of government expenditure.
The noble Lord, Lord Lamont, put the case about the economy very strongly, and I can only echo him. In exchange for diplomatic concessions, there is already promising talk about easing sanctions imposed by the UN and the West. Starting from such a low point, almost any commercial link is bound to be an improvement. On 19 October, the United States released $12 billion-worth of sanctions and the EU released $35 billion-worth of sanctions. These are good steps. I know of business opportunities, including some for Iranian state pension providers, many of whose beneficiaries are British. Opportunity is there, so there will be progress, but only if there is progress in the other areas that concern us, not least uranium enrichment and security for the missions of countries, including ours, that have suffered in the recent past. We do not yet know with certainty that this progress is sustainable, and I will return to the strategic judgment we have to make. It should be the core issue of this debate that we look at this issue, and ask the same fundamental questions as the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Ripon and Leeds. I share his call for clarity.
Education links are invaluable for the future. They reach a new generation of Iranians whom we need to reach. UNESCO tells us that almost 99% of Iranians aged between 15 and 24 are literate and, as a percentage, as many people go to tertiary education as in this country. Support for educational and cultural exchanges between our two countries will form stronger bonds and more mutual comprehension. We have promoted this through the British Council and Chevening scholarships.
Other countries have also recognised the problems in this arena. UNESCO reported interventions—I will not go though all the kinds of courses because of the time—from Germany, France, the Czech Republic, Malaysia, Korea and the United States, and I am sure there are a great many others. Aside from the Chevening scholarships, I am aware of initiatives taken by a number of British universities. There are scholarships at Cambridge, East Anglia, Westminster and Nottingham, and the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, kindly reminded us of a longer and deeper historic link with the universities as well.
All this is positive, but it does not address the key strategic issue. I know how hard negotiating with Iran can be as I conducted the negotiations for the release of our sailors and marines who were seized in the Persian Gulf by the Revolutionary Guard. Everyone is entitled to look for signs of hope—we would feel hopeless if we did not do that—but we will all weigh the changes in top personnel, even if we do not yet know much about them, and the positive words, which are to be welcomed and given weight, while we recognise that the intention of diplomats who utter them is that they should be given weight. The art is to be optimistic, but not to put unsustainable weight on pronouncements or on preliminary stages of a dialogue. These are processes where cautious advance is critical, working out with consummate care what is to be given in exchange for real changes, and for nothing less.
I ask noble Lords not to misunderstand my point. I want hope and positive advance no less than anybody else. I do not want to miss any window of opportunity, but I know that no sophisticated nation or alliance builds a credible foreign policy on the basis of hope alone. It is built in calibrated steps by all parties. It is circumspect and usually involves turning around a huge tanker that is loaded with history, poor experiences and disappointments. To do so as fast as the evidence suggests is, of course, right, but it has to be as fast as the evidence suggests.
I hope that when we hear in a few moments from the noble Baroness, Lady Warsi, what the Government’s current assessment is, the lessons to take away will be that we must move in a timely way; that we should not be star-struck with hope without proof of good intention; and that we should have carefully designed milestones by which to measure proposals. That is the approach I would advocate, and I do not believe that it moves an inch against the direction of doing so with a hopeful spirit.
The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con)
My Lords, I start by thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Afshar, for calling this incredibly timely debate. It is particularly timely because nuclear talks with Iran resumed last week in Geneva, and for the first time in a decade we are seeing serious exchanges between the E3+3 and Iran on the nuclear issue. On the bilateral side, we have agreed with Iran that we will both appoint non-resident chargé d’affaires, which marks a first step towards improving diplomatic relations. As my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary said on 8 October:
“It is clear that the new President and Ministers in Iran are presenting themselves and their country in a more positive way”.—[Official Report, Commons, 8/10/13; col. 27.]
That is, of course, welcome. However, the noble Lord, Lord Triesman, is right to say that we must advance cautiously. So far, the contact has been thus. On 5 August 2013 the Prime Minister wrote to President Rouhani, and on 23 September the Foreign Secretary met the Iranian Foreign Minister, Mohammad Zarif, in the margins of the UN General Assembly in New York. He spoke to him again on 7 October. The FCO’s political director met the Iranian deputy foreign Minister on 25 September, and again in Geneva on 16 October. However, we remain concerned about a number of Iran’s policies, including regional activity, particularly in Syria, and human rights. We want to see a change in actions, not just a change in words, from Iran.
Iran’s nuclear programme remains our overarching priority. Iran has thus far failed to reassure the international community that its nuclear programme is for purely peaceful purposes and it is therefore right at this stage that the UN and the EU have imposed sanctions on Iran. Given the current sanctions regime, the British Government do not encourage trade with Iran and do not support companies who wish to export to Iran or have a presence within the country. However, trade does continue in humanitarian goods such as medicine and foodstuffs, which are exempt from sanctions.
Lord Lamont of Lerwick
Has the noble Baroness noticed the report of the UN monitor of human rights who specifically said that the relief from sanctions for medicines and humanitarian purposes for poorer people in Iran is ineffective because the banking sanctions remain?
Baroness Warsi
I take the point made by my noble friend. So far as the UK is concerned, we have tried to issue export licenses for these products as a priority, but I understand the challenges that are presented by the banking sanctions. I shall certainly take back the comments that have been made in the debate today, including those referring to CORDS, the organisation that is in attendance here. It is the ambition of the UK Government to resolve the impasse in the nuclear issue peacefully. We therefore hope that President Rouhani’s Government will engage constructively and reach a negotiated settlement with the international community.
I can assure noble Lords, and specifically in response to the comments made by my noble friend Lord Lamont, that we have been open with Iran. We have said clearly that reaching a comprehensive agreement on the nuclear issue would mean the normalisation of political and economic relations with the international community and the end of all nuclear sanctions. Iran’s nuclear programme would be treated in the same manner as that of any other non-nuclear weapon state party to the non-proliferation treaty. A solution to the nuclear problem would mean that normal commercial ties with Iran could resume. It is therefore in all our interests for this matter to be resolved and for us to proceed to the next stage. The E3+3 accepts and respects Iran’s right to use nuclear energy for peaceful purposes. But this remains impossible if Iran continues to expand its nuclear programme in violation of UN Security Council resolutions and multiple resolutions of the IAEA Board of Governors.
Iran’s recent activities go far beyond what is required for a civil nuclear programme. Iran needs to take concrete steps to address international concerns and comply with international resolutions. We therefore welcome the more positive approach taken by the Iranian Government in nuclear talks between Iran and the E3+3 in Geneva last week. Foreign Minister Zarif presented a basis for negotiations and for the first time diplomats have begun more substantive discussions with Iran on issues of concern. We hope that negotiations will lead soon to some tangible results. There is a great deal of hard work ahead and further talks will take place on 7 and 8 November in Geneva. It is important that we maintain the positive momentum of the negotiations while at all times keeping a clear focus on Iran’s continuing efforts to develop its nuclear programme.
The noble Lord, Lord Hylton, and other noble Lords raised the issue of educational ties. We deeply regret that one implication of the lack of progress on the nuclear issue and a consequence of the closure of our embassy in Tehran has been to make it harder for Iranians to apply for visas to travel here as students, and for other visas. While there has been a noticeable drop in the number of students applying for visas, the UK remains committed to fostering educational links and has issued nearly 1,500 student visas via our diplomatic missions in Istanbul and Abu Dhabi. We also continue to run the Chevening Scholarships programme for Iranian students. This scheme is part-funded by the Foreign Office and will enable six outstanding scholars from Iran to study a one-year postgraduate course at a university in the UK.
The British Council suspended operations in Iran in 2009 but, noting President Rouhani’s positive comments regarding engagement with the international community, is now looking again at strengthening cultural and educational links between the UK and Iran. In the mean time, the British Council has supported English language teacher training through the development of digital resources and face-to-face training events outside Iran.
Baroness Williams of Crosby
I apologise for interrupting the Minister and thank her for giving way. Just before we move away from the visa issue, will she consider looking at visas specifically for scientific and medical purposes? I mentioned drug-resistant TB. There is a great deal of expertise in this country and in Iran. That is the kind of area where perhaps a more generous approach can be made.
Baroness Warsi
I will certainly look at that specific issue, and will continue to press for the overall normalisation of relations, which will impact positively on all visa applications.
In May this year, the British Council also hosted a meeting across the Persian Gulf in Dubai, which brought together senior non-governmental stakeholders from the Iranian education sector to discuss language and education in Iran. Such dialogues are continuing; for instance, with a round-table discussion next month, which will explore the role of cultural relations in developing UK-Iran engagement.
The noble Baroness, Lady Afshar, and my noble friend Lord Lamont spoke about banking restrictions. It is regrettable that a number of banks have taken the position that they have. It is not the intention of sanctions for that to have happened. The impact of sanctions on student bank accounts has been as a result of some banks imposing their own restrictions in addition to the sanctions. The FCO has held some initial discussions with the Treasury on how to resolve this issue, and these discussions are currently ongoing.
As my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary has said, progress in our bilateral relationship with Iran must be on a step-by-step and reciprocal basis. We are open to more direct contact and further improvements in our relationship. It is with this in mind that we are appointing the chargés d’affaires, who will be tasked with rebuilding our relations and dialogue on many issues.
My noble friend Lady Williams is right: one issue where Iran can, and must, play a constructive role is Syria. The new Iranian Government have said that they want to see a peaceful solution to the Syrian conflict. No decision has been made on Iran’s participation in Geneva II. We call on President Rouhani’s Government to match their words with actions and publicly endorse the G8-backed Geneva communiqué, which calls for a negotiation between the Assad regime and the Opposition on a new transitional authority for Syria. Iran has so far failed to endorse that communiqué. Iran’s actions must not prolong the conflict and must not contravene UN Security Council Resolution 1747. However, by supporting the Syrian regime with weapons and financial assistance, unfortunately Iran’s actions continue to do that at this stage.
Finally, as this Committee is well aware, the human rights situation in Iran continues to be a matter of serious concern. We regularly receive reports of serious violations by the Iranian regime against its own citizens and have condemned these. While I accept the comments of my noble friend Lady Williams, Iran does differ in many positive ways on the issue of human rights, women’s rights in particular, but there are still challenges. Women continue to suffer discrimination under Iranian law with a draft Islamic penal code continuing to legitimise disparity between the sexes. We saw a further erosion of women’s rights in Iran in August 2012—
Lord Lamont of Lerwick
I entirely accept what my noble friend is saying, but does she make the same representations equally unequivocally to Saudi Arabia?
Baroness Warsi
I am not the Minister with responsibility for Saudi Arabia, but I can assure my noble friend that when I last met with the Saudi Justice Minister I was incredibly forthright and frank in the discussions on the issue of women’s rights in Saudi Arabia.
We have made many public statements about women’s rights in Iran, too. The death penalty remains to be used excessively, and Iran has one of the world’s highest per capita execution rates. Discrimination and persecution of religious and ethnic minorities continues, as does torture and intimidation. I would be supportive of anything that the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Ripon and Leeds could encourage the Church of England to do to help foster understanding.
The noble Baroness, Lady Afshar, noted some positive moves, including the release of Nasrin Sotoudeh. This is, of course, a welcome step, but more needs to be done to ensure all Iranians enjoy the rights and freedoms to which they are entitled. I can assure the right reverend Prelate that the issue of human rights concerns is as important to us as nuclear concerns. We have designated more than 80 Iranians responsible for human rights violations under EU sanctions and have helped to establish a UN special rapporteur on Iran human rights. We supported Iran-focused human rights resolutions at this year’s UN General Assembly. In relation to Mujahideen-e Khalq and Camp Ashraf, we have called for a timely Iraqi investigation and for those responsible for these terrible attacks to be held to account. I have answered questions on these matters on many occasions before the House.
In conclusion, we sincerely hope that the marked change in Iran’s public statements is accompanied by concrete actions on issues of concern, not least the adoption of a viable approach to nuclear negotiations. If it is, the UK stands ready to work with Iran. We do not underestimate the difficulties ahead, but must take full advantage of any opportunities. If Iran matches its words with genuine steps to address the concerns that have been outlined in today’s debate, the Government believe that there is a rare and significant opportunity for progress to be made, and for our commercial and educational links to be strengthened as a result. This can only be to the benefit of Iran, Britain and the rest of the international community.