Arrangement of Business

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Thursday 18th January 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, before we move on to the main business, I want to raise an issue which should concern all Members of the House. When we have timed debates, frankly, Members on all sides of the House are speaking too long and going over their speaking limit. That results in other Members not getting a chance to reply, particularly the Front Benches, or sometimes with take-note Motions the Member who moved the Motion. I certainly want to hear the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, and the noble Lord, Lord Trees, at the end of their debates today. It is discourteous to other colleagues to go over your time, particularly in a timed debate.

I noticed that on today’s Order Paper the first debate is limited to six minutes for Back-Benchers. That is quite a lot of time. For the third debate, it is seven minutes. Respectfully, if you cannot make your point in six or seven minutes then maybe you should reflect on how you present yourself to the House. It is wrong that we do this.

We have another issue in that we now have persistent in-the-gap speakers. Speaking in the gap should be used very sparingly when you have not managed to get in. Persistent in-the-gap speakers can be found on all Benches, and I suggest that noble Lords who do it stop doing so.

[The Lord Privy Seal (Lord True) (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord makes a very fair point. I spent nearly 30 years in local government in a council chamber where you were not allowed to speak for more than five minutes, and I think I managed to get my case over sometimes. It shows full respect to other Peers to respect those limits, although I know that sometimes the limits are quite short. If I may say so, it is also true at Question Time, where there are not time limits, that sometimes questions and answers are too long. We have discussed this before and we on this side strive to be briefer. I have noticed that there is now quite a wide tendency to read questions, either from pieces of paper or even smartphones. The normal guide is 130 words a minute, so if speeches or questions are written out then there really is no excuse for them to last longer than they need to. I agree with the noble Lord that it does not show full respect to other Members. I am grateful for what he said; I agree with him and I am sure that the House listened carefully to him.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

I endorse the comments of the Leader of the House about Question Time. I have always said that the clue is in the title: it is Question Time.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

My Lords, I suggest that the Whips could be a bit more assertive when people go over time, because often they sit there while the time goes on and the rest of the House is getting agitated, but they do not intervene. Please can they intervene rather more?

Business of the House

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Tuesday 12th December 2023 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Privy Seal (Lord True) (Con)]

My Lords, we now come to three repeats of Urgent Questions asked in the other place. It may be opportune for me to draw your Lordships’ attention to paragraph 6.11 of our Companion as to procedures on such Questions. It is a matter for the usual channels whether the initial response or statement is repeated; obviously, it is available in the Hansard of the other place if the repeat comes on a following day.

The important thing is that these are Questions, not Statements. If I may say so, I have noticed one or two recent experiences where there have been quite prolix interventions, not only from the other side but from the Government Benches behind me. It is to the advantage of the House if we can get as many interventions as possible from noble Lords—for example, nine or 10—in the 10 minutes allowed for these Urgent Question repeats. In a recent instance, only five Peers got in. This business is under Question procedure, not Statement procedure.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I fully endorse the comments of the Leader of the House. These are called Urgent Questions—the clue is in the title.

Business of the House

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Wednesday 6th December 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, many thousands of statutory instruments are tabled in draft every year under every Government. It is not usual to make a Statement in Parliament on rescheduling statutory instruments. In relation to these draft regulations— I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving me notice on the subject about which he was concerned—the department had carried out a call for evidence to inform a review of existing non-financial reporting. This high- lighted strong support from both UK business and investors for existing company reporting to be simplified and streamlined. The Government therefore decided that it would be better to consider the reporting measures contained in the draft regulations alongside wider reforms to deliver a more targeted and effective corporate reporting framework. I know that the noble Lord is a great enthusiast for laying regulations on business, which does, in fact, destroy jobs in the end, but there is a wider review going on. I hope that the noble Lord will accept that explanation.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, getting back to the Motion before us, can I just confirm that this was agreed by the usual channels? I am very happy that it was. The process has been used before with very similar legislation. I am grateful to the Leader of the House for setting out how the process will work next week. This Bill will put money in people’s pockets. We support it and I hope that we can agree the Motion.

[Lord True (Con)]

I am very grateful for that.

Levelling-up and Regeneration Bill

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 3rd May 2023 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

312B: After Clause 123, insert the following new Clause—
“Chief Planning OfficersThe Secretary of State must publish guidance for local authorities on the appointment of Chief Planning Officers.”Member's explanatory statement
This is to probe the role of Chief Planning Officers.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, it is good to be back doing local government matters again and I promise not to raise leasehold issues. I start with some declarations. I am a vice-president of the Local Government Association, chair of the Heart of Medway Housing Association and non-executive director of MHS Homes Ltd. I noticed that the Government Chief Whip came in and it reminded me of the dreaded Housing and Planning Act that we debated for many weeks and months some time ago. I thought of my dear friend Lord Beecham, who is retired from the House.

--- Later in debate ---

To conclude, I hope I have said enough to enable the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, to withdraw Amendment 312B in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, and for the other amendments in this group not to be moved as they are reached.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who spoke. The noble Lord, Lord Foster of Bath, made an important point about insufficient numbers of planners in local authorities. A few years ago, I was a member of Lewisham Council, and we had that problem day in, day out—you saw that with residents. But a shortage of planning officers was not a problem when I was a member of Southwark Council in the 1980s, so something has happened, and the Government have to address that.

The noble Earl made a point about having increased the planning of things, and that is true, but more needs to be done because there is a huge problem here. We are sitting here again, debating another Bill containing bits about planning. I have lost count of how many planning Bills we have had in the 13 years I have been a Member of this House. One after another comes along, and we seem to debate similar issues and problems, but we are not dealing with the problem.

The noble Lord, Lord Lansley, made us aware of similar problems in the Cambridgeshire area. His point about getting resource from the developers, but it not being connected to a development, should be looked at: you could bring extra resource into departments that way, enabling more planners to be recruited. So the Government should look at that, as one way to enable more resource to be brought in.

I am so pleased that my noble friend Lady Twycross made an intervention—she is the deputy mayor for fire and resilience in London, and she is hugely experienced in this area. It was good to hear her contribution. Although it was good to hear that the Government are doing certain things on resilience, there are bigger issues: local resilience forums and how they operate and work with government need to be looked at. People such as my noble friend, who has worked on that in London for many years with the Mayor of London and government, certainly should be listened to on those issues. With that, I withdraw Amendment 312B.

Amendment 312B withdrawn.

Levelling-up and Regeneration Bill

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 27th February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I rise briefly in this debate to support Amendment 69 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Shipley. When I was listening, I read it and I am actually quite surprised by what the Government are doing—the disapplication of the duty of allocate seats to political groups. It seems perverse to me that the Government would do this. We are going to bring in these county combined authorities, whereby we bring people together across large areas who were not engaged, were not involved—and we want people to participate in this. Where would you be if you were trying to join one of these county authorities and you thought, “Hang on here, I am from one political group and we control this council, but all the other councils are controlled by my political opponents. I can join here, but then I will be taken off all the committees.” Why would you do that? It just seems perverse. I would be really interested to see how the Government can justify this when the Minister responds.

I really do think that the Government need to go away and think about that. It seems only fair to me that, if you are going to bring a combined authority together and you have elected politicians in all those authorities that come together, if they are from different groups, they should have representation on the Executive. I cannot see why you would want to take them off. Surely, you would want to hear their views. They are from different parts. I know there are proposals for a combined authority covering Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire. I used to work up there, and that is a huge area. The thought that one group could be excluded from that because they were not of the same political group—the larger group there—is just perverse. I do not understand why the Government would suggest that and want to do that. I am really looking forward to the Minister’s response to justify this. I hope that, maybe, he may agree to take it back to the department and suggest that they have overstepped the mark and that it should be removed at Report.

[The Earl of Lytton (CB)]

My Lords, as this is the first time I have spoken at this stage of the Bill, I remind noble Lords of my various interests and activities. I am a chartered surveyor, a vice-president of the National Association of Local Councils, and a member of the Country Land and Business Association. Probably none of them really clashes with what I am about to say. However, I do have fundamental concerns about these CCAs. How is this extra tier going to be funded or how will it generate its own income, in whole or in part? Will they truly meet what the Minister referred to as the transparency and accountability test that he set in the previous group? Will those standards always be routed in democratic accountability and the norms and conduct to be expected thereby, or something else?

I relate to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, about ever-greater centralism in the Bill generally. That is a disturbing trend, especially when this whole levelling-up Bill, if you like, was gazetted as something that was going be better for communities. I see the thing drawing away from everything I understand community to be, and recognised it as, when I was president of NALC. This seems to be moving in the opposite direction.

The lack of clarity and specificity, presented as a freedom of CCAs to organise and manage their own affairs to some extent, is another area which is not clear from the Bill. The real acid test is whether this will result in citizen confidence in what we are doing. It cannot be otherwise. This is not something we can do from the top down, saying, “Oh well, they’ll like it, won’t they?” This has to be rooted in confidence in communities and among the citizenry generally.

Specifically, on this clause, the associate members are a special area of what I see as potential democratic dilution. Voting or not, these associates will have position and influence in debate and the processes going on. Let us not get too hung up about precisely whether they will be voting, because they will obviously have a lot of important functions notwithstanding. But who might they be? One can think of all sorts of worthy individuals representing important sectors of the community, but what about a property developer? What about a telecoms or construction company executive, who might have a particular interest in being involved in a particular area, or an investor linked to a sovereign wealth fund? The list goes on. What about a pressure group? The real question is: do these pass the test of citizen credibility when looked at from that area, bearing in mind that this is a body that is going to add another tier to the process we have all become familiar with and, to some extent, used to?

Could the noble Earl give us some reassurance as to who these associates might be? There has to be some overarching principle that sits behind their appointment and the functions they are able to deal with. If not, we would be signing some sort of operational blank cheque to these bodies. I hope he will be able to provide me with an answer to that point, which concerns me very much.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, when I spoke earlier, I should have referred to my interest as a vice-president of the Local Government Association. I apologise to the Committee for that.

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD)]

My Lords, before I turn to Amendment 71, I place on record a very personal—and it is not just mine—support for what the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, said a few minutes ago about the vital importance of allowing tiers of local government to decide for themselves how they want to organise their decision-making processes. That is fundamental.

In terms of one of those tiers of local governance, we have already heard throughout the course of today’s deliberation frequent reference to the importance and the role of district councils. That is what Amendment 71 is about. I noticed that, during the deliberations on a number of groups, concern has been raised about quite how district councils are going to fit in to the new structures that are being proposed. Indeed, the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, said—I counted it—on five separate occasions during her last contribution, “It’s all very complicated” or “It’s all incredibly complicated”. I say to her that my Amendment 71 provides a solution which brings enormous simplicity to the whole issue.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Howe (Con)]

I sense that this is a matter that we will come back to at a later stage of the Bill. I do not think I can add anything to what I have already said on this subject.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

I will just come back to one point. I was a bit puzzled by the Minister’s response to Amendment 69 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Shipley. The Government are taking the power in the Bill to disapply the duty to allocate seats on the basis of political proportionality in the combined authority; they are disapplying that power. The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, was seeking to remove that provision so that, if a party had a third or a quarter of the seats, it would expect something similar on the Executive. When the Minister answered the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, he gave an answer that seemed to agree with what he was suggesting while justifying the position of the Government. It seemed perverse.

I know that there are to be proposals for a Nottinghamshire/Derbyshire combined authority. At the moment Derbyshire County Council and Nottinghamshire County Council are controlled by the Conservatives, and Derby City Council is led by the Conservatives. The only Labour council is Nottingham City Council. On the basis set out in the Bill, the three Conservative councils could get together, gang up on the Labour council and throw it out of the committee structure. That surely cannot be right. Why would a minority council join something if it could be ganged up on and removed from the executive? It would not; we want to bring people together. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, is trying to ensure that this problem could not happen. I do not follow the Minister’s arguments, which were in support of the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, but were used to say that we cannot have the amendment.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, perhaps I could help the Minister at this point by simply suggesting that we add this to the agenda of our meeting, which gets longer and longer as we speak. It is a very important issue, to which we should add the issue of whether the calculation of political proportionality applies to the membership of the CCA—those who are there—or the bodies that each of those members represents, on behalf of which they have been nominated to attend the CCA. You might get a different answer depending on which it is. To avoid a lengthy evening and discussion at cross purposes, perhaps the Minister will agree that we can talk about it around the table; it might be easier.

Tributes

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Tuesday 20th December 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I start where the Leader of the House finished: I join him in thanking all the staff of the House and wishing everybody a very merry Christmas and a happy new year.

I am always conscious when I come into this House that there are people here before I arrive, such as the security staff and cleaners. They are here as I walk out the door in the evening as well, as I say goodbye to them. We thank all the staff for all the work they do. We also thank all the staff who work for Members here, and those staff in the usual channels and Whips’ Offices. I also thank the contracted staff: the people who work for Royal Mail and give us our postal services, and all of the contractors based here as well. Thank you all so much.

As the Leader said, the dedication and service of the House was on its finest display during the period of national mourning and the lying-in-state of her late Majesty, with our doorkeepers and Black Rod on television at key points throughout those two weeks. We thank them very much for their service then, as we do for all their service throughout the year.

Philippa Tudor retired in October with clerkly precision, exactly 40 years after her start date. She held several key roles in the administration, including positions on the management board as finance and HR director and, for the last 10 years, as Clerk of Committees. Philippa blazed a trail for others: until more recently, she was one of a few senior women in the administration. She led by example and broke new ground, and was the first woman to sit at the Table of the House.

Philippa was committed to improving the House as a place of work for everyone in it. As HR director, she steered the House to Investors in People accreditation for the first time. As Clerk of Committees, she will be missed by her staff team, whose well-being she was visibly committed to. Never was this more needed than during the pandemic, when she was able to oversee the innovative delivery of committee services without compromising colleagues’ health at any stage. She was a distinguished finance director, leading the finance team through a period of significant change.

Away from her career in the Lords, Philippa also held a senior role in the Scotland Office as the head of its parliamentary constitutional division, where she played a leading part in establishing the basis of the working relationship between the UK and Scottish Governments in operating the devolution settlements in the early 2000s. Outside work, she has for many years been a volunteer for the charity Facial Palsy UK, running its London support group and supporting those affected by the various forms of facial palsy. Since retiring, Philippa has volunteered at Pecan, a south London charity providing support to people in need, such as the long-term unemployed. Philippa is a talented and passionate historian, having just published an excellent book on Mrs Gustav Holst.

Elma Refuerzo started in the House of Lords in September 2000 and retired in September 2022. She was a valued member of staff, working for 20 years as an early housekeeper, cleaning high-profile areas of the House including the Chamber, the Lord Speaker’s Office, the Robing Room and the Norman Porch area. Elma retired to spend more time with her daughter and mother in the Philippines.

Lesley Linchis retired from House of Lords Hansard in March, after working here for 21 years. Her first encounter with Hansard was in the early 1980s, when she worked in the Commons as a freelance typist, having answered an advertisement in the Evening Standard asking for people who were prepared to work unusual hours. She then joined the Commons Hansard team officially, taking on various reporting roles before moving to the House of Lords in 2001, where she worked as a reporter and, finally, a managing editor. Her long career was marked by a combination of hard work and arcane film knowledge.

Janet Anderson started in August 2008 and retired in March 2022. She was a valued member of the early housekeeping team and worked for 16 years in the House cleaning its high-profile areas and outbuildings, including the Robing Room, the upper Chamber galleries, the Royal Gallery and the Lord Speaker’s offices. Janet was a hairdresser for many years and has now retired to spend time with her husband and children.

Karen Stokes started in the Palace of Westminster as a security officer in 2002, where she soon became known for her politeness and professionalism to everyone she met. After retiring as a security officer in 2016, she joined Black Rod’s department as a doorkeeper that year. She was able to transfer a lot of her skills and knowledge of the building from her previous role. She was a loyal and knowledgeable member of the team, respected by all who knew and worked with her. She will always be remembered for her infectious laugh, which could often be heard in the other place. Karen retired from Black Rod’s department in April and is currently working in the banqueting department.

Michael Stevenson started in the House of Lords in March 1986 as a second chef, and eventually became head chef. He was a well-liked member of the catering team and was always seen as supportive and a mentor to junior chefs. Kind and professional, Michael then had a second career in the House of Lords, moving across to property and office services in the Department of Facilities in 2013 as a facilities manager. Michael thrived in this role and took on management of the housekeeping team, among other duties. He was passionate about protecting the heritage of the Palace and took huge pride in the work of the housekeeping team, in particular preparing for the State Opening of Parliament.

One of Michael’s lasting achievements was to gain support and funding for the House of Lords heritage cleaning team—the first of its kind. It has become indispensable in providing specialist cleaning services to both Houses; it recently provided them in Westminster Hall for her late Majesty’s lying-in-state. Michael worked with many Members and staff across the House for many years. He was well thought of by all those who worked with him. Michael retired on 5 June 2022, looking to spend more time with his two children and watching Formula 1 and football, and to move out of London for a quieter life.

In conclusion, I wish all Members of the House a very Merry Christmas.

[Lord Newby (LD)]

My Lords, I join the noble Lord, Lord True, in thanking all the staff for their very considerable efforts on behalf of us all over what has been an unusual but certainly demanding year. Obviously, the work that was done in the aftermath of the death of the Queen by staff in your Lordships’ House was most impressive. I think all noble Lords really saw our staff at their best during that stressful period. I join the Leader in thanking the staff in the Government Whips’ Office for helping to make the usual channels work so smoothly, and indeed my staff, who try to make me work more smoothly also, with variable degrees of success.

Mark Simpson recently retired after a distinguished and varied career spanning 30 years. During this time, he built up an extraordinary depth of knowledge of Parliament and its proceedings, which he used to improve understanding among the public and colleagues alike. Mark had a number of roles, but it was his 20 years handling inquiries from the public in the Information Office, later the Communications Office, where he made his most telling and lasting contribution.

The inquiry service was one of the founding teams when the Information Office was created. At its inception the service comprised little more than a basic phone line, but over the ensuing years Mark steadily transformed it into one that its many customers rely on and value today. Although the inquiry service was primarily intended to serve the needs of the public, Mark’s reputation for being the fount of all knowledge on your Lordships’ House meant that his expertise has been regularly in demand from staff and Peers alike. He also developed an unrivalled knowledge of the nooks and crannies of the Palace of Westminster itself. His idiosyncratic, entertaining and fact-filled Friday afternoon tours for new joiners became the stuff of legend. Perhaps there is a retirement job for him here but, in any event, we wish him a long and happy retirement.

Frances Grey worked for the House for over 20 years, quickly developing an expertise in information compliance, and was instrumental in preparing the House for new information access legislation, such as the Freedom of Information Act, environmental regulations, GDPR and the Data Protection Act. Initially a team of one, as information compliance demands increased, she became the head of information compliance and data protection officer for the House. She has been the House’s lead on all information compliance-related work and provided authoritative advice to no fewer than six Clerks of the Parliaments. For many staff, Frances was a constant figure of advice and assurance, a model of discretion, tact and good sense, and always ready to provide constructive and practical advice, balancing the needs of the House with the public interest and transparency.

Barry Whitcombe had been with House of Lords Facilities for 16 years. After five years, he was made senior attendant. Barry was a well-liked member of the team and is missed by all his colleagues. He will, however, now have more time to devote to his great enthusiasms: following Saracens rugby team and travelling with his family.

Julie Darlington’s contribution to the House of Lords has spanned 14 years. She helped establish the learning and organisation development team, before promotion to the role of pensions manager for all staff of the House of Lords Administration. In this role, she promoted the pension scheme to great effect and personally delivered the extremely challenging move into the Principal Civil Service Pension Scheme. Over the years, scores of people at every level in the organisation have benefited from her patient and empathetic explanation of their pension entitlement.

Richard Blake had a long career with the Ministry of Defence before joining the House of Lords in 2018 as director of the Parliamentary Procurement and Commercial Service. He had a unique perspective and a way of sharing his views with both humour and steel, the latter particularly when it came to compliance with regulations, for which we are extremely grateful. During his time in Parliament, arguably his greatest achievement was his invaluable work at the beginning of the Covid pandemic, leading the mammoth procurement at pace which enabled the virtual Parliament to operate in a compliant manner. He was also able to exercise the benefits that came from being head of procurement. Having a sweet tooth, he took a particular interest in all things food, especially cakes and pastries, and would try to be part of any form of cake-testing exercise. Richard is an ardent fan of rugby, real ales and red wine and a devoted father to two daughters. He was a respected leader and mentor to many in your Lordships’ House. We wish him and all other retiring staff the very best in their retirement.

Arrangement of Business

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Tuesday 15th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord opposite, whom I have great respect and affection for, is an extremely experienced parliamentarian. Perhaps this is one reason why he seeks every opportunity to intervene, even when it is not necessarily our custom. I say to him and the noble Viscount, who has taken a close interest in this matter, that the Government are presenting—I have just asked your Lordships to give a First Reading to it, which they very kindly have—a Bill which constitutes the measure which gives effect to the purport of the King’s Message. That is a Bill put before your Lordships’ House. The other place must speak for itself on what procedures it will use.

The Bill will be available online. It will be in the Printed Paper Office and Royal Gallery later today. An announcement will be put on the annunciator when the Bill is published. Given the interest in the Bill, it is being expedited. A speakers’ list will be open on the Government Whips’ Office website and will be kept open until 4 pm on Friday. As it is a Bill before your Lordships’ House, it is open to any noble Lord to put whatever amendment may be within scope of the Bill. However, I urge your Lordships to take notice of the Message which His Majesty was graciously pleased to send us.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, from these Benches and as part of the usual channels, I was very happy to agree the process outlined by the Leader of the House and Deputy Chief Whip and hope that we get on with this now.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, before we conclude this debate, can I follow my noble friend’s comments? If the text of the Bill is as we think it is, that will be fine. However, in this Motion it says “including” Her Royal Highness and the Earl of Wessex. I welcome that, but what is the position of Prince Andrew and Prince Harry, who no longer have a role in royal duties? Can they be or have they been removed, or will they be standing in for His Majesty even though they do not do royal duties? I hope we will get an answer to that.

Arrangement of Business

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Thursday 8th September 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, it is my understanding that in the other place the Prime Minister is leading a debate on the energy crisis and her proposals. As it is a debate and not a Statement, can the Government give some thought and hold discussions in the usual channels to arrange for a debate in government time in this House to discuss this most pressing issue?

As Opposition Chief Whip, I congratulate the noble Baroness on her appointment as Government Chief Whip. She is both a popular and a highly effective Member of your Lordships’ House. I look forward to working with her again.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Ashton of Hyde, for his service as Government Chief Whip. I always enjoyed working with him; he was kind, courteous and straight in all our dealings. I always enjoyed our conversations that took place many times during the day and even sometimes into the night.

[The Lord Privy Seal (Lord True) (Con)]

My Lords, if I might—unusually—respond on a usual channels question, I should like to thank the noble Lord for his kind words about my noble friend Lord Ashton, which are widely shared, and about my noble friend Lady Williams. I think this poor old man will often need a helping hand to stop him stumbling and I cannot think of a securer colleague than the noble Baroness.

As for the fundamentally important question that the noble Lord poses, which perhaps goes a little wider than the energy question, my right honourable friend the Prime Minister indicated yesterday a set of what she considers the urgent requirements for the country. They may well eventuate in provisions being laid before Parliament, which it would be my duty to make sure your Lordships’ House has the opportunity to discuss. I fully take his point about the nature of the debate in the other place meaning that I am not standing here repeating a Statement on energy. This is a question of fundamental importance, and I can give an undertaking that we will take it away and have those discussions in the usual channels to see how we can accommodate your Lordships’ House.

House of Lords: Remote Participation and Hybrid Sittings

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Thursday 20th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, this has been an excellent and necessary debate. I congratulate all noble Lords who have spoken today. I thank my noble friend Lady Taylor of Bolton and the whole of the Constitution Committee for their excellent report; it was timely, clear, knowledgeable, evidence-based and forward-looking. It really helps our debate as we look forward to returning to some form of the House that we knew before.

I pay tribute to my noble friend Lady McIntosh of Hudnall, who clearly demonstrated that she is no one’s understudy. She has done excellent work for us as a member of the House of Lords Commission and as a Deputy Speaker. Perhaps she would be tempted to join the Opposition Front Bench; she would be warmly welcomed. I join her in paying tribute to my noble friend Lady Smith of Basildon, the Leader of the Opposition, who undertakes her role effectively and is respected on all sides of the House. She cannot be here today due to a family event.

I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, that while there have been strong views expressed on all sides of the House, we would all benefit from listening to positions we might not agree with. We need to ensure that when we move forward, we create the House that we and the country need. We must be honest with ourselves and take the House forward on that basis.

As other noble Lords have done, I pay tribute to all the staff of the House. They have always stepped up and delivered magnificently in every department. I pay tribute also to the police, who have kept us safe during this time. The team that created the virtual House, and then the hybrid House, deserves our praise. We have managed to keep Parliament working in the most challenging circumstances. PeerHub is a fantastic success and its application has proved to be a great advantage since we first went into lockdown in March 2020. We should look at these things carefully.

I contrast that with what is going on in the other place. I remember seeing what became known as the Rees-Mogg conga, with Members of Parliament wandering along all through the Palace. That did not look particularly good, nor did the compromise whereby Whips could vote for hundreds of Members by walking through the Lobbies. I note that, through the electoral integrity Bill, the Government are going to ensure that people cannot cast lots of proxy votes for our citizens—but it is okay to do that in the other place. I think PeerHub is the solution until it is safe to do otherwise. We should retain PeerHub for voting by moving to a position, when it is safe to do so, that Peers should be present on the estate to vote. I accept that entirely but we should not be crushing into Lobbies any time soon. We need to look at those things carefully.

I am so pleased that, generally, this House is more collegiate, more sensible and more pragmatic in its approach to dealing with the challenges of the Covid-19 pandemic. The noble Earl, Lord Howe, expressed the desire to return the House to sitting in Parliament as soon as practical, and I agree with him on that point. My only caveat is that we must take those decisions only when it is medically and professionally agreed that it is safe to do so.

I have huge respect for the noble Lord, Lord Cormack. He is my friend and I always enjoy our conversations outside the House, but I hope he does not press his Motion to a vote today. The debate today is the start of our discussion about returning to a more normal House. In that sense, his Motion is useful but I do not think he would be wise to divide the House. If he did, I would vote against it and I do not want to do that, but I hope he will not.

I confess to the House that, before March 2020, I had never heard of MS Teams or Zoom. I had no idea what their functions were. I had never spoken to anybody on a computer by using a camera to see them. I now use this technology most days; I have even managed to arrange a few meetings myself. I had a sense of achievement when I actually shared my screen recently and made a presentation—it still makes me feel good. I have enjoyed and agreed with many of the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, who I do not believe is in his place. My only concern is that we have a clear road map for the points he raised. We have to make sure that we get that staging point right.

We have, as a House, continued to deliver on our important work and Members should be congratulated on doing that. I have personally been delighted to speak to children and young people; the work of the education centre still goes on and it has been a real privilege to do that. There has undoubtedly been an impact on scrutiny by your Lordships, and I mean no criticism of anyone in saying that. We have done well to come as far as we have in such a short space of time, but the Government must keep at the forefront of their minds their obligation to Parliament and to our democracy, and Ministers’ specific obligations under the Ministerial Code. There can be no reason for neglecting this: it may be awkward, but it ensures the Executive are properly scrutinised by Parliament.

I agreed with all the comments made by the noble Lords, Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth and Lord Haselhurst. As I said before, we should be governed by data, not dates. That is the right approach and I very much support it as the way forward. Again, I agreed entirely with the contribution by the noble Lord, Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate: we must have respect for our fellow Members on all Benches as we return to a more normal House. The pace of change should not disadvantage any Member or particular groups of Members.

The Chamber chat on MS Teams is used by the Front Benches, the people on the Woolsack and the clerks. I think that should stay; it is much better than bits of paper flying around the House or people speaking to each other by the Throne or at the Bar of the House. I hope there is agreement that it should stay.

My noble friend Lady Quin and the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler of Enfield, made the powerful point that all the organisations outside this House are looking at how they are going to work in future. The House must do that as well.

The point about Ministers coming to the House and respecting the Ministerial Code is very important. I sometimes get irritated when we have off-the-record briefings to various newspapers; I read them on a Saturday or Sunday and think, “Oh, it’s nice that I found it out there”. Legislation and statutory instruments are not always clear. I have found myself saying, “I’m actually not sure what the Government’s position is on any particular regulations”. If I do not know, then how are citizens outside going to know? We should have things mentioned here clearly and accurately for all to understand.

The replies to Written Questions are not always of an acceptable standard. If a department finds itself struggling then more resources should be identified. I entirely accept that the Department of Health in particular had a huge number of questions, but I must say that I was not happy when we got a general three-page note covering hundreds of questions. That was not the way to do it at all. We need to ensure that responses from Ministers in this House to Parliamentary Questions are of a proper standard and what we expect, otherwise it is disrespectful to the House and to Parliament.

There have been challenges along the way but generally I think the House has responded well. Yes, we have lost spontaneity. I have not been able to have conversations with Ministers to make points to them in Committee; we need to go back to that as soon as possible. There have been problems with the numbers of people who have wanted to speak. I agree that being allowed one minute to speak in a debate is not an effective way to proceed. I am always open to discussions about how we can improve that because it is not a good way of working.

In conclusion, what has been achieved is outstanding and deserves our thanks from the whole House to everyone involved. We need to change again, moving safely and carefully to a physical House only when it is safe to do so. Innovations should be looked at carefully and some should be retained, but our constitutional role as a revising Chamber in our bicameral Parliament must be reasserted and enhanced in the road map to our physical House returning. We must ensure that that is done properly in future.

As a member of the Opposition, I have been involved in many defeats of the Government—I have defeated them a few times myself from this Dispatch Box—and it is my job to do that. I do not accept that that is not the right thing to do. What we have lost, more importantly, is the conversation in the Prince’s Chamber, the meeting in the Minister’s office, the engagement with the campaigners and the interaction with the Civil Service that lead to a government concession because you have made your point. As we all know, a government concession is better because you do not then have the problem of it being overturned at the other end and going through ping-pong. I very much want to ensure that that happens as well.

I disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Farmer, that voting is some sort of rebellion by the Opposition. Sorry; sometimes it is our job, if all else fails, to divide the House and even to defeat it. Sometimes the Government are right but sometimes they get it wrong, and then it is our job to ask the other place to think again. I know that is in the context that the other House is elected, and at the end of the day it will get his way, but still it is our job to do that and I will continue do it, again and again if necessary.

As I said, this has been a good-quality debate. Clearly there is lots that we agree on. I hope the Leader of the House, the party leaders and the Commission will take this debate away and look carefully at what we agree on and what we can move forward on quickly and effectively, while ensuring that we do so only on the basis of data, science and safety, not just dates.

Civil Procedure (Amendment No. 4) (Coronavirus) Rules 2020

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd September 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, first, I draw the attention of the House to my relevant interest as a vice-president of the Local Government Association. It is worth making clear right at the start: there is no blanket ban. There is nothing here suggesting that people who commit anti-social behaviour, domestic violence or other illegal activity cannot be evicted today—absolutely nothing. It is important to recognise that this SI is about no-fault evictions: you have decent, hard-working people whose only crime is the fact that they have not been able to work since March in the entertainment industry or the hospitality industry and they do not have the money to pay their rent. I want judges to have discretion to consider the impact of Covid-19 on renters and/or their dependants.

I have several questions for the noble Earl. Some points have been raised across the House, but I am sure that, in the time he has, the noble Earl cannot answer all the points put to him, so I should like a commitment from him to write to me and other noble Lords on the points raised.

The first is on lockdowns. If lockdown conditions are resumed for England and Wales, will the evictions ban be put back in place? As regards local lockdowns, will the noble Earl confirm that bailiffs will not be able to perform evictions where there are restrictions on members of other households entering your home?

The second is on benefits. It is a fact that rent payments cannot be covered by benefits, and the caps on housing benefit and local housing allowance limit the amount you can have to pay your rent. Can we temporarily lift the caps and increase benefits to cover average rents? This will immediately ensure that thousands are not up for eviction and will help landlords and tenants alike.

Thirdly, it is clear that we need to get money into the hands of renters and landlords to help rent debt and avoid homelessness. I welcome what the Government have done, but the scale of the economic shock and the effect on jobs and incomes is now huge—so, sadly, it is not enough. Renters cannot pay to landlords what they have not got. Many landlords have been accommodating, but of course, as money gets tighter, more landlords will get more anxious about their own situation and more eviction notices will be issued, leaving homelessness as the only option for renters. So does the noble Earl agree that the Government must step in to stop this increase in homelessness and introduce a system of grants and benefit increases to stop thousands of renters being made homeless?

The fourth point is on data. Will the Government commit to collecting and publishing data on Section 21 notices served, and how often different grounds of eviction are used? The fifth is on discretion for judges. Landlords and tenants have been asked to provide information on Covid-19, but the judge cannot use that information to pause or change the terms of an eviction under Section 21 or Section 8, ground 8. Can this be changed? Will the Government bring forward emergency legislation to give judges discretionary powers to take Covid-19 into account?

The final point is on discrimination. The Government’s guidance published last Thursday states:

“In some circumstances, it may be possible to prevent the eviction if you feel the landlord has discriminated against you based on who you are”.


Can the Minister confirm that it is possible to stop an eviction under Section 21 if the landlord is seeking it based on the tenant’s gender, disability or other protected characteristics?

In conclusion, as I said earlier, the noble Earl cannot give a commitment on all the issues raised here, but I hope that he can respond to us all in writing. For me, this is about decent, law-abiding people whose only crime is that they cannot pay their rent because of the pandemic.