Football Governance Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Hayward and Baroness Twycross

Committee stage
Monday 16th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

My Lords, before I respond to the points that have been raised, I want to respond to the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Addington, in the previous group, in relation to the regulator’s guidance. I can confirm that the regulator’s guidance will be published. Clause 12(5) of the Bill states:

“The IFR must publish any guidance”.


I also want to clarify a point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, because I am concerned that if I let it lie then, at a later date, somebody may suggest that it was accepted. It was that only seven clubs had been met with. I stress to your Lordships’ House that this Bill is the culmination of almost five years’ work which started in 2019. Officials have had extensive regular engagement with key stakeholders, including with the clubs which will be subject to the regulation. All clubs have had a number of formal opportunities to share their views, particularly as part of the fan-led review and the football governance White Paper. Over this five-year period, DCMS has had hundreds of meetings with clubs, leagues, fan groups and other stakeholders. No club that has requested a meeting has not had one. I hope that clarifies that point.

[Lord Hayward (Con)]

While I understand the Minister citing a series of meetings that have taken place over a number of years, we are now talking about a Bill which has been introduced by this Government with changes from the previous Bill. Some of those changes have already been debated, and some have not. Surely, it behoves the Secretary of State and any Minister within a Government to have slightly more than a half-hour conversation with seven members of the Premier League when we know that they are going to be the most affected clubs in terms of cost burdens.

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

The noble Lord and I may need to agree to disagree on the level and extent of the consultation. The culmination of consultations between officials and the various meetings that have taken place constitute very sound consultation. I was concerned that it might appear to your Lordships and to people externally that only seven clubs had been met during the whole course of the design of a new regulator, which I think all noble Lords would agree would be highly unusual and undesirable. I may return to that point; noble Lords may raise it again in Committee. I look forward to further discussion of what constitutes consultation.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Markham, for his Amendment 124, which creates a mechanism for the regulator to delegate its function to the competition organisers. I understand that some noble Lords believe that the regulator should act as an overseeing body, only acting through the leagues and only stepping in once the leagues have failed to address a problem or, in some instances, not wishing the regulator to exist at all. Without wanting to disappoint noble Lords, including the noble Lords, Lord Maude of Horsham and Lord Hayward, the noble Baroness, Lady Brady, and others who support this amendment, I am afraid that the model of regulation is not one that we are proposing and nor is it the model that the previous Government proposed. Notwithstanding the points that have been raised repeatedly, this is now this Government’s Bill and we are very proud to bring it before your Lordships.

The fan-led review laid bare the issues with industry self-regulation, and this is an amendment where it is important for your Lordships’ Committee to reflect on the fact that football has had ample opportunity to get this right. We are legislating only because the leagues do not have the incentives and governance structures to address these problems adequately.

I agree with the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Goddard of Stockport, that this amendment could be argued to represent a bear trap. I also agree with a number of points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Sentamu. As has been demonstrated, compliance with current competition organiser rules has not proved an effective way of ensuring sustainability of the game. That is precisely why a new bespoke regulator is required, with the powers, incentives and agility to act where competition organisers are unable to.

However, I want to reassure the noble Lord that the regulatory system is already designed in such a way that the regulator should not need to intervene if the required standards are already being met. If clubs are meeting their threshold requirements naturally—for example, through their compliance with the industry’s existing rules—then the regulator will not need to apply discretionary licence conditions. There is also the more formal

“Commitments in lieu of … discretionary licence conditions”


mechanism, where leagues will be given an opportunity to address specific identified financial problems so that the regulator does not need to attach a licence condition.

Beyond this, however, we do not believe that the regulator should delegate functions to the leagues—there would be a significant issue of accountability. In a case where a function was delegated and serious failings happened, accountability would then be hard to ascertain. We also do not think that a power for the Secretary of State to direct the regulator would be appropriate. Not only could that constitute undue political influence on the regulator but it would also open the door to continuous lobbying by competition organisers for regulation to be delegated to them. What is more, the amendment would allow the Secretary of State to give this direction and for regulation to be delegated back to the industry without any prior parliamentary scrutiny.

On the points raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Brady, about the FA’s willingness to take on delegated functions, my department continues to have discussions with all stakeholders, including the FA, on a range of issues. It is encouraging that there is willingness in the industry to tackle the problems of financial sustainability. However, as the fan-led review clearly showed, the industry has not proved able to take forward the reforms needed at this time due to the governance and constitutional arrangements in place, as well as lacking the expertise required to deliver the regime we have been discussing. An independent body free of industry influence is needed; now is not the time to delegate functions. However, as with all aspects of the Bill, the Government will keep under review the effectiveness of the regime to deliver regulation. For these reasons, I am unable to accept the amendment, and I hope the noble Lord will withdraw it.

Football Governance Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Hayward and Baroness Twycross

Committee stage
Monday 9th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

My understanding is that the amendment would prevent money going from club to club. The model is around distribution between leagues or competitions, as the noble Lord suggests. There is already a situation in which the Premier League recognises that some financial redistribution is needed. I refer the noble Lord to previous discussions about why the regulator and financial redistribution of some type are required within the football pyramid.

Amendments 126 and 130 relate to the regulator being able to state in its rules any further information that is required to accompany the application for a provisional licence or the strategic business plan. The regulator will be independent, and it will be the expert. We need to give it the flexibility to implement its regime as it considers appropriate. This includes being able to request additional information in a club’s application if necessary to satisfy itself that the club will meet the test for a provisional operating licence. This will be set out up front in the rules, so clubs will always know in advance what is required of them when submitting an application or a strategic business plan. For the reasons I have set out, I am unable to accept the noble Lords’ amendments, and I hope they will not press them.

[Lord Hayward (Con)]

My Lords, I find the Minister’s answer interesting, but I will start by making a comment in relation to my noble friend—I do address him as my noble friend—Lord Addington’s remarks regarding regulation. The concerns we have on these Benches are in relation not to regulation per se but to regulatory creep and regulatory definition. The first few clauses in the Bill in one form or another either cover inadequately or do not cover the question of regulation.

My first amendments related to sustainability and the breadth of that comment. The Minister has just made her observations in relation to “targeted”, “prioritised” and “proportionate”. We are trying to establish precisely what the regulator can operate to, more clearly than we have in the Bill as it stands. It is not clear, and the net result is, as we know and as has been observed by any number of Members across this House, that we watch regulators use regulatory creep one after another after another.

The Minister used the words “proportionate” and “targeted”. Is the regulator going to have exactly the same interpretation of “proportionate” or “targeted” as the Minister? No. By definition there are no minds alike, and therefore they will be different. In this set of amendments we are trying to find out precisely how the regulator should operate. Without that clarity, the Bill gives the regulator what I regard, and I think many people on this side of the Committee particularly regard, as undue breadth of self-interpretation. The noble Lord, Lord Pannick, referred to the Premier League and the payments that are made. I agree with parts of the comments that he made, but we have here a unique operation whereby the Premier League makes payments to other clubs in other divisions and to those facing threats of relegation so that the whole system does not fail.

The noble Lord, Lord Goddard, identified the banking crisis. Under those circumstances, Governments worldwide intervened in all sorts of ways in all sorts of businesses. That is not comparable with trying to regulate a sport, and a highly successful sport as it is. What is significant and interesting is that although the Premier League passes money downwards, the Championship does not. It receives money and could easily pass money down, but fails to do so. Therefore, one is looking at a complicated position in terms of regulation and the impact it will have, in a way that has been eloquently identified in a number of contributions from the noble Baroness, Lady Brady, from her understanding, unique in this Chamber, of the operation of both the Championship and the Premier League.

I will continue to seek clarity, as I am sure others will, on what is intended behind the work of the regulator. That is what we are here to do, and we should do it step by step as we look at each clause and subsection. Having made those comments and noted what the Minister said, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Football Governance Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Hayward and Baroness Twycross

Committee stage
Monday 9th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

I suggest that noble Lords might discuss this at further length with the shadow regulator. As noble Lords will be aware, they have made themselves available and I am sure that, as the Bill progresses, they would be happy to have further conversations.

I turn to Amendment 120 from the noble Lord, Lord Markham. As I touched on earlier, the annual report is a vital mechanism for the regulator to be held to account. I therefore understand the desire to ensure that this report is comprehensive and covers the necessary detail. It will be in the power of the Secretary of State to specify any required contents, which are not, as Amendment 120 would ask for, all listed in the Bill. This is so that a much more adaptive approach can be taken, year by year, and so as to not constrain the issues that should be covered in the report.

With regard to Amendment 121, I reassure the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay, that the annual report will be laid before Parliament so that it can be scrutinised. If it is not, the regulator will be in breach of its statutory obligations; therefore, the intent of this amendment is already achieved.

Moving on to Amendment 122 from my noble friend Lord Bassam of Brighton, I thank him for raising this issue and am sympathetic to his viewpoint. Women’s football was discussed in the previous group of amendments and, as I outlined, the Government support the recommendation of the independent review of women’s football, published in July 2023. It set out that the women’s game should be given the opportunity to self-regulate, rather than moving immediately to independent statutory regulation. We appreciate, however, that this situation may change and that women’s football might need to be brought into scope down the line to safeguard its future.

As is clarified in the Explanatory Notes, the Secretary of State will already keep under ongoing review whether it is appropriate to amend the specified competitions. Clause 2(5) already requires the Secretary of State to carry out a formal assessment, including consultation, before doing this and to publish and lay its results before Parliament. The assessment can be triggered at any point so if any change in circumstance occurs, the Secretary of State is able to react. We therefore think that the principle of this amendment is already catered for and do not believe it is right for a clause with a specified timeline to be added to the Bill.

The Government recognise the intent behind Amendment 328 from the noble Lord, Lord Ranger of Northwood. It is vital that the regulator is transparent about the burden that its regulatory activities may have on clubs and competition organisers so that it can be held accountable. From the start, we have been clear that we wish to establish a regulator for football that will take a proportionate approach to regulation. We do not wish to introduce a regulator that will impose onerous and burdensome requirements on the clubs. That is why the regulator will have a statutory requirement when exercising its functions to have regard to the desirability of avoiding impacts on features such as competitiveness and investability. We expect that the impact of the regulator on the market, including on regulated clubs and the leagues, will be reviewed in both the “state of the game” report and the regulator’s annual report.

I reiterate: the Secretary of State and Parliament will be able to scrutinise these reports. We believe that this ongoing accountability is more appropriate than a one-time review by the Secretary of State six months after the Act has passed. It would not be fair or indeed helpful to evaluate the regulator’s performance or impacts after just six months of a brand new regime. For the reasons I have set out, I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Hayward (Con)]

I withdraw the amendment.

Football Governance Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Hayward and Baroness Twycross

Committee stage
Wednesday 4th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

No, it cannot.

[Lord Hayward (Con)]

Before the Minister sits down, perhaps I could make a comment. The Minister has been very helpful in offering meetings to discuss a whole range of issues that arise, which we greatly appreciate, and to write beforehand. On one thing which she touched on—I will obviously have to read Hansard very carefully to check, because she moved on fairly quickly—was why companies legislation was not acceptable for the Bill. I just register that I would like when we meet to discuss this more fully. She referred to Companies Act legislation being very lengthy, but I am not clear on why, if it is acceptable in general Companies Act legislation, it is not acceptable here. We can discuss that, but I just wanted to register it at this point so that when we meet, it is a subject for conversation.

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

I am happy to go into more detail on that point when I meet the noble Lord and I will ask my officials to contact him to set up a meeting.

Football Governance Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Hayward and Baroness Twycross

Committee stage
Wednesday 4th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Jackson of Peterborough and Lord Markham, for these amendments. Before I go through them and respond to the debate, I stress that I will make sure that all letters that have been sent to Members in the course of the Bill so far are placed in the Library as soon as possible, if that has not already taken place.

Ensuring that there are appropriate financial processes and limits in place for the regulator is extremely important, and I welcome this opportunity to discuss the matter in more detail. Amendment 50, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Jackson of Peterborough, would entirely remove the ability of the Secretary of State to provide the regulator with financial assistance where appropriate. The Government acknowledge that the intent behind this amendment is to ensure that the regulator provides value for money for football fans, Parliament and the wider football industry. The regulator will be levy funded, and its regulatory principles include using its resources in the most efficient, expedient and economic way—this is what we expect.

The noble Lord, Lord Hayward, asked about costs to smaller clubs. It will be for the regulator to determine the methodology for the levy. However, the Bill requires it to take into consideration the financial resources of a club and the league a club plays in when determining how to distribute the levy charge across clubs. This should ensure a proportionate levy, where no club, big or small, will be asked to pay more than what is fair and affordable. I appreciate, however, that the noble Lord has not yet been satisfied by my response to this, and I look forward to discussing it with him in further detail when we meet.

[Lord Hayward (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for the offer to meet. Can I clarify that her implication is that all clubs in a division will be charged the same fee? I am not absolutely clear from what she said whether there will be a varied fee for different clubs in the same division, and this is not clear in the impact assessment either.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

It is for each league a club plays in, but, as the noble Baroness, Lady Brady, made clear, there would be differences between the resources available to each club within a league. It is intended to make sure that each club has a proportionate levy placed on it, as well as taking into account which league a club might be playing in. So it is intended to be proportionate overall but also proportionate to the resources of an individual club.

The regulator’s budgets will be approved annually, and it will produce an annual report that will be laid before Parliament. However, on the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Addington, exceptional and unforeseen adverse events may mean that it is necessary for the Secretary of State to provide financial assistance to the regulator. Paragraph 36 of Schedule 2 allows for this when considered appropriate. It also allows for the Secretary of State to cover any shortfall during the period between establishing the regulator and the levy being fully in effect—that was noted during the debate.

The noble Lord, Lord Jackson, asked how much the independent football regulator will cost and questioned whether the taxpayer would have to pay. To answer his question fully, I stress again that the regulator will be levy funded. However, there will be a period before clubs are licensed, and before the levy can be charged, when the Secretary of State will provide funding. These initial costs can all be recouped by the Exchequer once the regulator’s levy is up and running. We cannot know the exact cost of the regulator until the legislation has been passed and the organisational design has been finalised by the chair and the board. The noble Baroness, Lady Brady, noted that some of the additional potential purposes that noble Lords have discussed in relation to the regulator could scale up or scale down some of those costs, so it is not possible to have an exact figure at this stage.

On a power allowing the Secretary of State to cover any shortfall, there is an equivalent power for the Secretary of State to provide financial assistance to, for example, the Small Business Commissioner in the Enterprise Act 2016. Entirely removing the ability of the Secretary of State to provide this financial assistance could mean that the regulator is unable to continue to operate and fulfil its objectives, which would have significant knock-on impacts on the game.

On Amendment 171, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Markham, it is important that clubs have appropriate non-financial resources in place. This will ensure that clubs are able to make good decisions about running the club, as well as meet relevant rules and regulations and report their finances accurately. The regulator will be able to attach discretionary licence conditions relating to non-financial resources in three areas: risk management, financial reporting and internal controls—and only in these three business-critical areas.

The term “internal controls” is explained in the Explanatory Notes. It refers to the system of policies and processes that a club has that allow it to operate in an effective, orderly and efficient manner. This includes controls to ensure complete, accurate reporting, compliance with rules and regulations, and financial management.

To confirm the assumption of the noble Lord, Lord Birt, on the matter of not duplicating with regard to audit, we would assume that existing audits would be used as part of this process.

These are all areas crucial to ensuring financial sustainability, and that is exactly why the regulator needs to be able to attach discretionary licence conditions relating to these areas to ensure that clubs do in fact have appropriate non-financial resources. It would not be appropriate to limit the regulator unnecessarily here to internal financial controls only. The regulator can attach licence conditions only if they advance one or more of its operational objectives. I reassure noble Lords that the regulator will not have free rein here; financial sustainability will still be at the heart of any licence conditions.

Finally, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Markham, for his Amendment 253. The Government completely agree that the regulator should not be able to borrow money. That is why it is already prevented from doing so in paragraph 35(2) of Schedule 2. There is no need for this restriction to be duplicated elsewhere in the Bill. Additionally, the regulator would currently use penalty receipts to fund litigation costs. The noble Lord’s amendment would prevent this. It would mean that litigation costs would have to be passed on to all clubs through the levy, as opposed—

[Lord Hayward (Con)]

Sorry, I was just waiting for the Minister to conclude her paragraph. Can I just ask her to clarify the intervention made by the noble Lord, Lord Mann? He said—I am paraphrasing and am happy if he corrects my phraseology—quite clearly to the Committee that figures have been given to clubs as to what they were likely to pay. Is that correct, or is the noble Baroness, Lady Brady, correct, having been present at all the meetings with the Ministers, that no figures have been given to any clubs?

[Lord Mann (Lab)]

Figures have been given by the Premier League to clubs and clubs have been happy to cite those figures.

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

To respond to that point, my understanding of what my noble friend Lord Mann said was that it related to the Premier League giving information to the clubs, rather than explicit information being given by the Government.

[Lord Hayward (Con)]

In which case, can the noble Lord, Lord Mann, provide the Committee with the details of the figures and the dates when they were provided?

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

I am not sure whether it is my responsibility as a Minister to ensure that that happens.

Football Governance Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Hayward and Baroness Twycross

Committee stage
Monday 2nd December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

The noble Baroness raises a particular concern. I am not suggesting by any means that people will not need time to get used to and understand the burdens or costs on smaller clubs but, as I felt I had outlined, I hope that, with enough clarity, the licence conditions—that includes the costs placed on clubs— will vary depending on their unique circumstances. I am sure we will have further opportunities to discuss that as we go forward. Hopefully we can give your Lordships’ Committee and the clubs some reassurance on that point.

[Lord Hayward (Con)]

To follow up on the Minister’s comments and the observations made by the noble Baroness, Lady Brady, given the detail that is included in the impact assessment on every other category of cost and benefit, and even though I find some of the calculations dubious, to say the least, at the next sitting of this Committee can we have a clearer indication of the likely proportionate costs which will fall on clubs at different levels in the pyramid, rather than some broad, general observation that it will be proportionate?

Football Governance Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Hayward and Baroness Twycross

Committee stage
Wednesday 27th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hayward (Con)]

May I just seek clarification? She has covered a very wide-ranging debate as quickly and reasonably as possible, and I have no criticism of the manner in which she has done that. The key debate has been around the word “sustainability”. I think that, earlier in her reply, she said that it was defined at some point. The powers to operate are in Clause 1 and there is no definition in Clause 2. If she has given clarification at some point, I will check it in Hansard, but I am seeking clarification as to whether there is, within the Bill, “sustainability”. For that purpose, the powers identified in Clause 1 do not define it, and looking under key definitions in Clause 2, it does not appear to be there, either.

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

I draw the noble Lord’s attention, and other noble Lords’ attention, to the first line on page 2. Even if it does not have the word “definition”, it is quite clearly a definition. It says:

“For the purposes of this section, English football is sustainable if it … continues to serve the interests of fans of regulated clubs, and … continues to contribute to the economic or social well-being of the local communities with which regulated clubs are associated”.