Agriculture Bill

Debate between Lord Grantchester and Baroness Northover

Committee stage & Committee: 7th sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 7th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 28th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Northover (LD) [V]]

Clearly, there are major risks with Henry VIII clauses, and we have more of them in this Bill. My noble friend Lord Thomas reminded us of the roots of the term, and that the tools were once weaker than those used by the Government today. Statutory instruments are unamendable and almost never voted down. These clauses use secondary legislation to amend primary legislation. We are getting more and more instances of their use.

The House of Lords Select Committee on the Constitution has been very critical of this. As the committee put it:

“A distinguishing feature of the Brexit bills was the extent of the delegated powers they contained. Many were skeleton bills, providing broad powers to ministers to create new policy regimes and public bodies for the UK after Brexit with little or no detail as to what policy would be implemented or the nature of institutions which would be created.”


The University of Bristol Law School has noted:

“It seems that the desire to ‘take back control’ from the EU has morphed into an altogether more sinister desire on the part of the Government to minimise scrutiny of its policy choices.”


The noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, to whom other noble Lords have referred, has called for such clauses to be

“confined to the dustbin of history”.

He is surely right.

There was huge concern about this when the predecessor Bill was published in 2018. There have been improvements, but they are insufficient. It is still not clear what the policy will be in the coming years, with so many “may”s and so few “must”s in this Bill. All noble Lords who have lasted this long in the proceedings on the Bill to contribute to this group have expressed concern. The Minister is probably relieved that some stood aside, but I expect they would have said similar things. However, even that would not have tested the patience of the Minister, who richly deserves a summer holiday back in the English countryside. But he will have much to think about.

Despite the changes from the 2018 Agriculture Bill, the Delegated Powers Committee remains concerned, and these amendments reflect that. These amendments also reflect the NFU’s concern. Nothing is certain for British agriculture at the moment, and these powers need to be clarified and curtailed. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

[Lord Grantchester]

I am grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Carrington and Lord Greaves, and others for tabling Amendment 295 to Clause 47, “Regulations”, under Part 8, “General and Final Provisions”, and Amendment 298 to Clause 50, “Power to make consequential etc provision”. They are correct to look at every opportunity the Government may feel they need to extend their powers on what is essentially a framework Bill without a lot of detail.

The amendments made me check the 13th report of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee of your Lordships’ House. The committee’s oversight of each piece of primary legislation is always cogent and thoughtful. In consequence, any criticism is always considered and answered carefully by the Government. On rereading the report, I am slightly surprised that the Delegated Powers Committee did not flag up these clauses’ ability to make amendments to primary legislation by secondary orders. The House has usually argued that unless there are very good reasons for doing so, changes to primary legislation should come only from a new Bill.

I have now reread the clauses very carefully and wonder whether this provision was not flagged because the relevant subsections do not actually confer a delegated power to modify primary legislation but contain a provision that already modifies primary legislation, retained EU legislation or subordinate legislation; that is, something that is already delegated and clarifies how other powers may be used. I would welcome the Minister’s explanation.

I do not wish to prolong proceedings but, together with my noble friend Lady Jones of Whitchurch, I echo the remarks of other noble Lords in appreciating the uniformly consistent and fulsome answers that the Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady Bloomfield, and the whole Bill team have provided to all our inquiries. All responses have been comprehensive and expressed constructively in all our deliberations. The praise given by your Lordships is well deserved for the patience shown towards us. I have always found the ministerial answers most helpful.

After a very long Committee stage, I just add that I have not found the Committee essentially negative towards the Bill; rather, my impression is that as the Committee has proceeded with its inquiries, the ambitions contained in the Bill have become better appreciated.

Agriculture and Food Industry

Debate between Lord Grantchester and Baroness Northover

Thursday 24th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Plumb for calling this important debate, not least because it enables us to emphasise the huge contribution that our farmers and those in our food industry make to the economy. I feel immensely privileged to be answering the noble Lord. This is my opportunity to tell him that, when I was young, I recall my father, a tenant farmer, speaking in awed and hushed terms of the noble Lord when he was vice-president, then president, of the NFU. My parents felt that here was a true champion of what they were doing. They felt valued as they sought to make a living out of difficult hill-top land, the fertile valleys being occupied by a golf course, which my father longed to plough up. They worked against the odds in food production in dairy, beef, sheep and arable, training me and my siblings as expert sheep-dogs, bale movers and—I address this to the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford —straw burners. The noble Lord, Lord Plumb, said that farming is not for the faint-hearted; he is so right. I also know how important the agricultural industry is to our own food security and what we can contribute, given the huge global need that my noble friend Lady Parminter and others pointed to.

The UK agri-food chain, from the farm to the retailer to the caterer, is estimated to be worth £97 billion. Our world-class food and drink manufacturing and retail sectors supply consumers both in the United Kingdom and abroad. The food supply chain employs some 3.7 million people. Food and drink is the country’s largest manufacturing sector, contributing £24 billion to the economy and employing 370,000 people. British food and drink has an excellent reputation for its high standards and rigorous traceability, as well as the strong environmental and animal welfare standards that are valued by consumers across the world.

We have a rising UK and global population, and demand for British produce is increasing. At the same time, for the types of food that we can produce in this country, we import 31% of what we eat. Consumers care increasingly about the origin of their food, thus offering the chance for UK producers to increase their share of the domestic market. We want to provide the right conditions for UK producers to take advantage of these opportunities now, in the face of increasingly fierce international competition.

Both the agriculture and food sectors have their challenges. Our rate of agricultural productivity growth has lagged in recent decades relative to some of our key competitors such as the USA, Denmark, Ireland and the Netherlands. Various noble Lords referred to this. We therefore need to increase our rate of agricultural productivity but, as my noble friends Lord Selborne and Lady Parminter emphasised, we need to ensure that we do it sustainably, to ensure that we can go on competing in the global market.

My noble friend Lord Plumb is absolutely right about the need for research to underpin agriculture. After all, it was in the United Kingdom that the agricultural revolution started, which transformed agriculture in Britain and around the world. That combines now have eight computers demonstrates the complete variance from my father’s battered old combine. Only his engineering skills kept it going and, when it was finally sold, it was bought by a collector. It is right that science and research must underpin the agriculture industry. As my noble friend Lord Selborne emphasised, this is the key. That is why we have brought forward the agri-tech strategy, which was mentioned by many noble Lords.

However, as my noble friend Lord Selborne and the noble Lord, Lord Curry, pointed out, we cannot be complacent. The strategy was launched to support the agri-food sector, providing the UK food and farming industry with opportunities to increase productivity, grow the economy and give UK businesses a competitive edge both here and overseas. The Government are investing £160 million through the strategy, as noble Lords have noted, in projects that will, for example, establish centres of agricultural innovation. The strategy also calls for a joined-up, industry-led approach to improving skills in the agri-tech sector. My noble friend Lord Selborne emphasised the importance of linking this to farming practices. My right honourable friend the Prime Minister announced funding of £18 million from government and industry for 15 agri-tech catalyst projects on 21 July so that they can become commercially viable.

We have a long record of innovation in farming in this country. However, in recent decades, as I mentioned, our productivity has not grown as fast as that of some of our competitors. The strategy is designed to help tackle this by supporting the transfer of innovation to the farm. There is huge potential from breakthroughs in areas such as plant and animal breeding and in the application of technologies such as the satellite imaging mentioned by my noble friend Lord Plumb in terms of their effect on agriculture—my father would have been stunned to hear my noble friend say the things he did. The aim of the agri-tech strategy is to ensure that we make the most of these opportunities. The noble Lord, Lord Trees, rightly emphasised that animal health is relevant in this area. I am sure that he knows, but I would point out to him that the new catalyst projects announced on Monday 21 July included one for technology automatically to monitor pigs for early detection of health and welfare issues.

Many issues came up that show the need for a research base in agriculture. The noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, and my noble friend Lord Ridley mentioned GM. At an Environmental Council last month, there was overwhelming support for the proposal that will allow member states and the devolved Administrations more choice on whether to cultivate GM crops. The next stage is to agree this proposal with the European Parliament, and these negotiations could conclude later this year or next year. If adopted, it will be a few years before GM crops are grown commercially in the United Kingdom but, earlier this month, an EFRA Committee report on food security recognised the benefits of GM technology and supported the UK’s efforts to make the approval process operate more effectively.

My noble friend the Duke of Montrose asked a very specific question on sheep carcasses. I can let him know that the EU Commission is looking into this, but that is at a very early stage, and we note what he says. My noble friend Lord Marlesford mentioned herbicide-resistant black grass in wheat. We recognise that this is a serious issue, and we will look carefully at this problem.

British food and drink is known the world over for its quality, and our food and drink industry is a success story both at home and internationally. Since 2010, we have seen exports increase by £1.2 billion to reach an impressive £18.9 billion in 2013. Increasing exports provide an excellent opportunity for the sector to grow even further as well as to become more resilient and more profitable. With surging global population growth and demand for western products increasing worldwide, there has never been a better time to pursue food and drink export opportunities. That is why I can assure noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, that promoting food and drink exports is a key government priority. To help grasp these opportunities, Defra and UKTI launched the UK food and drink export action plan. This details the Government’s commitment to champion UK food and drink overseas, break down trade barriers and open up new international markets for our produce.

Last year, the United Kingdom exported food and drink to the value of £18.9 billion, as I mentioned. There is room to increase this even further, particularly in emerging markets. The export action plan outlines an ambitious target, jointly agreed by government and industry, to add £500 million to the UK economy by helping 1,000 UK food and drink companies with their international growth up until October 2015. The plan also details government and industry’s commitment to work together to champion UK food and drink overseas, open up new markets, overcome barriers to trade and simplify and improve support and trade procedures for exporters.

Back home in the UK, both agriculture and food manufacturing face another challenge: the skills gap. Various noble Lords referred to this. This affects innovation and profitability. The Food and Drink Federation anticipates that 137,000 new employees are required in food manufacturing by 2017 to meet its ambition to grow sustainably by 20% by 2020, and 45,000 of these will be needed in management roles and professional jobs. The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, mentioned apprenticeships. The Government are supporting the food industry’s work on creating a number of career pathways for young people. These include the BIS-led reforms to ensure that apprenticeships are even more rigorous and responsive to employers’ needs and the development of the UK’s first food engineering degree at Sheffield Hallam University.

The future agricultural workforce is a vital part of meeting the challenge of global food security. We are currently addressing a number of the findings of the Future of Farming Review, which industry and Government worked on together, to look strategically at the opportunities and barriers encountered by those making a career in farming.

My noble friend Lord Caithness mentioned various challenges, including poor pay and poor prices. They are clearly important factors. He will be pleased to know that we held a beef industry summit on 1 July, bringing together all parties in the supply chain to discuss the fall in beef prices. My noble friend Lord Marlesford mentioned milk prices. There were record milk prices in 2013, and they have remained high in 2014. When I hear about various variables, it takes me back to my father’s view of why he needed a mixed farm, not only for the preservation of the soil, but because he never knew which bit of it might be profitable at any time. Sheep would be losing money, arable would be neutral, but a third area—let us say beef—might be making a little. He never knew which it would be and which would be losing.

My noble friend Lord Caithness also mentioned seasonal agricultural workers. We understand the concerns over the availability of seasonal workers. We have established an industry-government working group bringing together growers, labour providers and relevant government departments. We are pleased that Jobcentre Plus has shared its experience in helping with temporary recruitment in the relevant industries and it is now working with the agricultural sector. It is worth bearing in mind that, on average, UK farmers enjoy higher incomes than others in the EU but we fully realise that that varies by sector. Seeing the variability plays an important role in recruitment into the industry.

My noble friend Lord Plumb is right to emphasise the importance of colleges and to note the encouraging increase in competition for places, which indicates the health of the industry. As part of CAP reform, we are developing a new rural development programme and have dedicated £140 million to farming growth and productivity, with particular attention to how to support new entrants and those developing their businesses in the early years, to pick up on a point that the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria made. He also asked more generally about the CAP, as did the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, who emphasised the importance of the EU market and its influence in other markets. He is, of course, absolutely right about that. I remind him, as my noble friend Lady Warsi so often does, that the Prime Minister has made it very clear that he does not intend to leave the EU.

Our approach to implementing the new CAP in England is aimed at minimising the burdens on farmers while delivering value for taxpayers and improving our natural environment. Within a smaller overall EU budget, English farmers will benefit from £15 billion of funds over the next CAP period and we will invest at least £3.5 billion in rural development schemes. A bigger share of the rural development budget will be spent on the environment than ever before—87% compared with 83%. I point out to my noble friend Lord Caithness that we aim to have an IT system that is simple, affordable and effective, but assistance will be provided for those who genuinely cannot or do not get online, ensuring that farmers and their advisers have access to the guidance they need. What he said rather rang true.

We should acknowledge that agriculture’s contribution to our economy is not just about production. Significant economic and social benefits are provided directly to local economies and communities. We heard some wonderful examples from my noble friend Lady Bakewell, on farmers’ markets. It was lovely to have that as a contribution to the debate. My noble friend Lady Scott made the important point that the Government need to do much more to educate people about food and where it comes from as part of the wider context. She will probably know that Defra sponsors Open Farm Sunday, which is held every June and sees more than 200,000 people go to farms to see where food comes from. Natural England has set up educational access agreements with farmers, which help them host educational farming visits. Quite a lot of work is going on but I am sure that more could be done and I know that children enjoy that immensely.

As I have indicated, agricultural and food industries are not without challenges. Noble Lords will be aware of the increasing demands on our land. Defra has helped to fund a project by the University of Cambridge—a sustainability leaders’ platform—which clearly outlines the calls on land, including those from food, fuel and housing. The Government are currently discussing how policies that can have an impact on land interact so that the best outcome is achieved. My noble friend Lady Miller of Chilthorne Domer spoke passionately about the need for us to steward our soils. She is absolutely right. We fully recognise the importance of soil and its essential role, including in food production, carbon storage and flood protection. The ambition expressed in the Natural Environment White Paper was that all soils should be managed sustainably by 2030. New national standards to limit erosion, protect soil organic matter and maintain soil cover will be in place from 2015. I hope my noble friend is reassured by that.

On Monday 21 July, Peter Bonfield’s report, A Plan for Public Procurement, was published. My noble friend Lady Parminter referred to what she found within that and what she wished might have been in it. In the report, my right honourable friend Elizabeth Truss, the Secretary of State for Defra, stated that the plan will create £400 million of new business opportunities for the British food industry. From 2017 all of central government will commit to buying fresh, locally sourced, seasonal food so that all food that can be bought locally will be.

My noble friend Lady Parminter spoke about the Green Food Project. The noble Lord, Lord Curry, and my noble friend Lord Ridley also spoke about this in a strategic context. We are committed to supporting growth and increased competiveness in the food and farming industry. We are working in partnership with industry to focus on priority areas for action, including through the areas I already outlined. We want a healthy and resilient farming industry that contributes to our food security. I assure noble Lords that we have looked at how this also serves to enhance the environment and reconcile any tensions there might be within that. The research and technology we are investing in will also, we hope, help contribute to that.

There are various other things that I might need to reply to in a letter, I am afraid, given the time.

[Lord Grantchester]

Since the Recess is approaching, could the noble Baroness say anything about the Elliott review?

[Baroness Northover]

Yes, we are considering Professor Elliott’s interim recommendations and will respond to his final report, which will be published shortly. I am sure that the noble Lord will enjoy reading it as he lies on the beach somewhere or other. The professor’s interim report recognises that UK consumers have access to some of the safest food in the world. This record must not be undermined by criminals. We should pride ourselves on our record in this area, built upon the work of a number of Governments successively. I am sure that we will all look forward to debating the report when it comes out in its final form in due course.

This has been a wide-ranging and thoughtful debate, reflecting the huge expertise among its participants. We fully share noble Lords’ sense of the key importance of British agriculture, both for own food security and for our potential contribution worldwide. That is why we support the range of research, investment and other areas that we do.

Public Bodies (Abolition of Food from Britain) Order 2014

Debate between Lord Grantchester and Baroness Northover

Wednesday 9th July 2014 Grand Committee

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

My Lords, I welcome this opportunity to introduce the Public Bodies (Abolition of Food from Britain) Order 2014. First of all let me explain why the Government have proposed to abolish the public body, Food from Britain. The rationale for this is quite straightforward and I can assure noble Lords that I am not actually abolishing all food from Britain, which might be a little more controversial than this order.

The Government have made a commitment to reduce the number of unnecessary public bodies. In July 2010, my right honourable friend the then Secretary of State for Defra announced proposals to reform a number of departmental public bodies. These included Food from Britain, which—if I can use inverted commas throughout—was set up under the Agricultural Marketing Act 1983. It operated between 1983 and 2009, focusing mainly on the promotion of UK food and drink exports. In 2008, the Food from Britain Council took the decision that the body should be administratively wound down, following a reduction in its grant in aid by the previous Administration. Food from Britain ceased its activities in March 2009. All the staff were made redundant and the body vacated its former offices in 2009. However, Food from Britain was not formally abolished at that time.

Although the legislation which provides for Food from Britain remains in force, the Government continue to have a legal obligation to publish annual reports and accounts. Despite having no activity to report, the cost of preparing and publishing the reports is in the region of £3,000 a year. Formal abolition of Food from Britain will eliminate this unnecessary cost. The Public Bodies Act 2011 provides the legislative mechanism for the Government to carry out reform of public bodies. Food from Britain is listed in Schedule 1 to that Act. This enables the Minister to lay an order under that Act to abolish it. This order, when made, will dissolve Food from Britain in law by repealing the legislation which first established it.

In accordance with the requirements of the Public Bodies Act, a UK-wide consultation was carried out in the autumn of last year. Having carefully considered the consultation responses, it is now proposed to repeal the legislation which provides for Food from Britain by an order under the Public Bodies Act. Ministers in the devolved Administrations have given their consent to the abolition of Food from Britain, as required under the Act. As Food from Britain is effectively defunct, its abolition will have no impact on jobs. However, it will remove an unnecessary public body from the legislative framework and will reduce costs to the taxpayer. Abolition of Food from Britain is a legal tidying-up exercise, but I can assure noble Lords that the Government are firmly committed to strengthening the UK food and drink industry.

The agri food and drink sector is already the UK’s largest manufacturing sector, supporting 3.6 million jobs and adding £97.1 billion to the economy. British food and drink is known throughout the world for having the highest standards of quality, safety and traceability. By increasing food and drink exports, the sector can grow further. My honourable friends the Defra Ministers have made it a priority to promote British food and drink at key international trade shows, and negotiate to remove trade barriers and open up new markets overseas. In 2013, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State at Defra, Owen Paterson, visited China on two occasions to support UK produce and to negotiate market access. Last week, he was in the USA to discuss the opportunities the EU-US Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership offers for our producers and exporters. My honourable friend the Farming and Food Minister George Eustice also visited the Gulfood trade fair in Dubai, in February, to promote UK food and drink. In 2013 Defra opened 112 new overseas markets for animals and animal products, increasing exports outside the EU by £179 million to £1.35 billion. Some 54 new markets have been opened in 2014.

UK Trade and Investment provides both potential and active food and drink exporters with a range of advice and assistance to help them take advantage of new markets, including providing funding to attend international trade fairs; organising international “meet the buyer” events; running GREAT week events in priority markets worldwide; and offering a range of seminars and advice.

In October 2013 Defra and UK Trade and Investment launched the UK Food and Drink—International Action Plan at the Anuga trade event in Cologne, the world’s largest food and drink fair. The plan sets out how the Government are working closely together with the industry to promote trade, break down barriers, open up new markets and champion what is great about British food and drink. The export action plan outlines, among other goals, an ambitious target jointly agreed by the Government and industry to add £500 million to the UK economy though assisting 1,000 UK food and drink companies with their international growth by October 2015. That is a 400% increase in support for the sector.

I hope that it has been helpful to give this explanation about the rationale for the abolition of the body entitled Food from Britain and the continuing support that the Government are giving to the food and drink sector. I commend this order to the Committee.

[Lord Grantchester (Lab)]

My Lords, I remember Food from Britain very well. It appeared just before the introduction of milk quotas and has not quite been able to outlast quotas over the last 25 years. I declare my farming interest in a dairy farm.

I thank the Minister for her introduction and explanation of the order before the Committee. I am very happy to support the order to abolish the organisation Food from Britain. However, it is interesting to put it alongside the quota regime in its timing and duration. Agriculture has an almost universally recognised leadership as an industry for its productivity and efficiency improvements since the Second World War. Farmers are very good at producing, especially when working with science. However, they are somewhat less good at marketing their produce. Food from Britain represents one of the many and continuing ventures into marketing assistance.

As ever thus, as a non-departmental public body Food from Britain was brought to a close by the withdrawal of funding. Can the Minister say whether these organisations ought to have sunset clauses included in their set-up legislation to complete the administrative processes. However, it seems rather extravagant that the Ministry should agree with its order to pay £3,000 a year for a nil return from a defunct organisation.

The Explanatory Memorandum is excellent in explaining the tidying-up operation regarding pensions and the transfer of functions to other bodies. The legacy of Food from Britain is a good one. UK Trade and Investment, together with the Food and Drink Exporters Association, have collaborated to produce the UK Food and Drink—International Action Plan—although the Food and Drink Federation contends in its consultation submission that it was only the desire to tidy up administratively that led to this progress. Once again, sunset clauses would be a catalyst for improvement. The local and regional food marketing organisations also do an excellent job in these times of localism and evolution to local people and local funding.

Regarding the explanations in the memorandum concerning the protected food name scheme, I will ask the Minister one or two questions. Can she clarify Defra’s role under the scheme? Is it devolved? If it has a presence within Defra, is that as a proactive support to companies, regions or organisations in their plans for recognition, or as a certifying body to organisations in their applications for recognition at EU level—or, indeed, something else? Finally, the Explanatory Memorandum underlines that the legal ownership right to the name “Food from Britain” and the domain name, foodfrombritain.com, remain with Defra. That this is retained may signify that Defra recognises that it still has some value. Ministers may well have used the name Food from Britain in championing British food at international trade shows. Does Defra have any plans for the name, Food from Britain? Has it considered licensing the name for a fee or for a length of time, or even considered selling it? Does it intend to add value to UK food by the use of this name in any way?

While agriculture still needs marketing improvements, I am content that Defra has made the case for the abolition of Food from Britain. In conjunction with the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, I am happy that the abolition of Food from Britain will make a small contribution to improving the exercise of public functions.

Water Bill

Debate between Lord Grantchester and Baroness Northover

Monday 31st March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grantchester]

My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendment 90CE, which is grouped with these amendments. I was slightly confused as to whether the Government were putting their name to our amendment, because I noticed that we have a little “g” in front of our Amendment 90CE. But I will take that as a misprint and that I must still convince the Government of the merit of the case.

The amendment would put in place regulations that would add clarity to set the date of commencement for Flood Re. It would also create a database of properties at risk of flooding and indicate whether the property is covered by the flood scheme. The amendment will insist that the database must be set up before Flood Re starts, as that would be logically helpful.

I begin by welcoming the Government’s helpful concession, particularly in Amendment 90B, which sets out regulations to allow insurers to provide information to policyholders in the scheme. We are glad that the Government have listened and acted on our concerns expressed in Committee with the introduction of their amendment, but we still feel that it does not go far enough. Delivering information to those already in the scheme—that is, policyholders—is helpful as far as it goes. Although it is important that insurance companies are well equipped and able to deliver information to policyholders in relation to the flood scheme and how they can protect their properties adequately, we believe that the database proposed by our amendment would be a lot more useful, primarily for potential homeowners but also for mortgage lenders. It has become much more difficult of late for people to get mortgages and it is even more difficult to get a mortgage if the mortgage lender is at all concerned about damage from flooding. As such, information should be provided to homebuyers at the start of their journey of finding a home rather than further along the process, after they have agreed with the vendor on a purchase or when they are at the stage of consulting mortgage companies after engaging solicitors. The database must be accessible to everyone and allow them to check whether a property for sale or rent is covered by the scheme and highlight its risk to flooding. This would prevent the all too recognisable reality experienced by people in the recent flooding whereby home owners were blindsided by their properties flooding and then found themselves caught when their insurance companies reassessed their policy terms. The database would also avoid the scenario whereby a home owner may believe that they are covered by Flood Re when in reality they are not.

It is a very straightforward amendment, which brings the whole subject of the database and properties into the public domain. It would add transparency and clarity to the scheme. At present, with the complicated nature of the scheme, especially in terms of eligibility, we should do all that we can to assist those potentially affected by the scheme by making them all the more aware of where they stand with regard to flood insurance on the property that they are inquiring about, not just once they become policyholders. We have already heard today of the complexities behind the scheme as regards leaseholders, as well as the exclusions for small businesses and other aspects.

[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, for tabling Amendment 90CE, which proposes a publicly searchable database of flood risk. I am desolate that I must disappoint him as we cannot accept the amendment even though it does have a little “g” in front of it. Nevertheless, we agree with the intention behind the amendment that households that are ceded to Flood Re should be made aware of their flood risk. Knowing about flood risk is essential to helping affected households to manage their flood risk effectively, both in the short and long term. That is why we have recently published a note entitled Homebuyers and Their Flood Risk, in which we have explained the information currently available to prospective homebuyers.

It is a well established principle of the conveyancing process that the onus is on the buyer of a property to conduct their own searches and investigations into the potential risks to that property. In England, the Environment Agency provides a freely accessible resource of flood risk information for any area. Anyone may use this service to identify whether their post code is at risk of flooding from rivers, the sea or surface water. Similar resources are available to households in other parts of the UK. Should a household wish to identify flood risks specific to their property, commissioning a flood risk survey from a suitably experienced professional would identify the ways in which water can enter a property and what measures could be taken to prevent or limit possible damage. We believe that requiring Flood Re to help insurers guide their customers to information about flood risk and how to manage it will add significantly to public awareness of flood risk. That is why I moved Amendment 90B and I thank the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, for his welcome of it. I hope therefore that noble Lords are willing to accept the government amendments in this group and that the noble Lord will be content not to move his amendment.

Water Bill

Debate between Lord Grantchester and Baroness Northover

Tuesday 25th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, we all agree that bad debt in this sector must be tackled effectively. However, we believe that the best ways to do this are through the sector-led voluntary approach to information-sharing and by Ofwat getting the regulatory penalties and incentives right.

While we strongly support the aim of the amendment, we cannot agree that it is necessary because, as noble Lords will be aware—the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, made reference to this—very similar provision already exists in primary legislation. Without anything changing in the Bill before us, the power exists for the Government to bring forward regulations to require landlords to provide water companies with details of their tenants. This could happen if it seemed appropriate.

However, after consulting widely with all those who would be affected by this measure, we decided that a voluntary approach would be more suitable than imposing those regulations. Landlords felt that it would not be fair to penalise them financially for the debts of others. Having looked carefully at all the evidence, we took the view that there was much more that the water sector could do to address the issue, and there is evidence that some companies are already doing it. It is important that we make decisions based on the evidence; and the evidence showed us that good practice in tackling bad debt is not applied consistently across the water sector.

On earlier amendments on affordability, the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, and others suggested that water companies’ hands were perhaps tied on bad debt. Several companies have excellent performance in the recovery of bad debt—there are many things that they can do—but many others do not. Water companies can, and many already do, use the courts to pursue debtors. However, too many companies still fail to use all the debt collection tools at their disposal and we want improvements in performance in this area.

By way of illustration, perhaps I might give noble Lords some examples of what we identify as good practice. Yorkshire Water is an outstanding example of good work on bad debt. It partners with Experian’s credit account information-sharing service. Yorkshire Water assesses all new customers’ credit histories, which enables it to tailor services to each individual, supporting those in financial difficulty and providing sanctions for those who avoid payment. Another effective scheme is the arrears allowance scheme run by United Utilities, which supports 8,300 customers. For the first six months, the company matches customers’ repayments pound for pound; then the company matches every £1 paid with a £2 allowance until arrears are cleared.

However, at the moment, by no means all companies use these approaches. We wish to see such approaches become much more widespread, and the regulator wants to promote this, too. The methodology for the current price review places a much stronger focus on the responsibility of the company to collect its debts.

The sector as a whole is now starting to respond to this challenge. It is working with landlords’ organisations to establish a new voluntary scheme. Soon, it will launch a database that enables landlords to provide tenant information voluntarily. Crucially, this scheme is supported by the industry through Water UK and the main landlords’ organisations. We wish to give this new system a chance to work and we hope that noble Lords opposite will do so, too.

Ofwat decides which costs may be recovered through the price review; it is absolutely central to what it does. It is clear that Ofwat is using the current price review process to bear down on the costs of bad debt, which is clearly very important. The regulator has been very clear to companies about how bad debt is viewed. Companies must demonstrate high performance in debt collection. They are obliged to show that any increase in bad debt is genuinely beyond their control.

I shall refer to a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, again in relation to the earlier group of amendments on affordability—the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, may have referred to it just now as well. The noble Lord suggested that bad debt was mostly in the private rented sector. There is no evidence that bad debt is disproportionately in the private sector; nor does provision in the Flood and Water Management Act, which the noble Lord wishes to see implemented, focus on private rented properties. It would make all landlords, both private sector and social landlords, financially liable for their tenants’ debts. We may have misheard or misunderstood the noble Lord, but we wanted to put that clarification on the record in case that that was how the noble Lords opposite viewed the situation.

Intervention in the setting and recovery of charges is a job for the independent economic regulator. Ofwat has all the tools necessary to enable it to do this job, and it is absolutely right that it is allowed to do so independently. Although we share the view of the noble Lord opposite that those who seek to avoid paying for the water provided when they can pay should not push those costs on to others, I hope that he will accept that progress is being made in the way that I have described and will therefore be content to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Grantchester]

I thank the Minister for her comments. We were perhaps talking at cross purposes on the amount of bad debt in the private rented sector. The point here is that local authorities and housing associations are much keener on water companies chasing up tenants and therefore reveal to them the details of those tenants far more readily than do landlords in the private rented sector. That could explain the preponderance of bad debt in the private rented sector.

Nevertheless, I contend that the voluntary approach is simply not working fast enough. It is evident that things are going on in this respect—I pay tribute to what is being done—but I am concerned that not all companies are working as assiduously as they could to reduce this problem.

Given that provision already exists in primary legislation, I urge the Government to press forward a little more keenly than they appear to be doing. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Water Bill

Debate between Lord Grantchester and Baroness Northover

Tuesday 11th February 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grantchester (Lab)]

My Lords, the amendment would set up a review of recent outcomes of planning policy in terms of flood risk for new developments. It has received widespread support around the Committee.

The noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, has already highlighted how the market will change following recent events. In view of the terrible situation that has resulted from recent weather events in Somerset and the Thames Valley, which may well trigger a wide-ranging review of flood risk policy, it makes sense to ask why there has been more building on low-lying and flood risk areas in the past four years, even allowing for the guidance to which the Minister has already referred today. There has been plenty of notice since 2007 that not all property in areas that might be developed would be eligible for flood insurance. Recent floods have highlighted that there may be errors in the guidance. Nor have successful protection measures been achieved.

Why has planning allowed development to take place against a background of increased perception of flooding potential following the floods in 2007 and in 2012? As the Government, the Environment Agency and planning authorities—indeed, the whole country—will be reassessing flood defences and expenditure, a review of where we are now would make eminent sense.

I was struck by the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, on the cumulative development effect, which would be worth of the attention of the Environment Agency. The amendment has also prompted some interesting suggestions from my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours, so it is worthy of further assessment by the Government.

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

My Lords, we strongly support the intention behind this amendment. The importance of managing the impact of flooding has been brought into very sharp focus recently, and my noble friend has made a cogent case for ensuring that all those involved, whether builders, local councils, inspectors or national organisations, are fulfilling what is required of them in terms of capacity and performance in reducing flood risk.

My noble friends Lord Shipley and Lady Parminter made the case for a review of planning policy delivery. Planning policy for flooding is set out in the National Planning Policy Framework. The framework was published by the Department for Communities and Local Government in March 2012 following extensive public consultation and is supported by practice guidance. It sets strict tests to protect people and property from flooding, which all local councils must follow. We have been very clear that where these tests are not met, new development should not be allowed.

The framework states that councils should plan the location of new development to avoid areas of flood risk where possible. Only if no sites are available in areas of lower risk of flooding can local councils even begin to consider whether to allow development in areas where there is a higher risk. For logical reasons, this is known in planning terminology as the sequential test. Where the sequential test has shown that it is not possible, consistent with wider sustainability objectives, to locate in an area with a lower risk of flooding, then—depending on the flood risk—a second stringent test must be met before a development can go ahead. This is called the exception test, which provides a very strong safeguard. To pass the exception test, you must show that the development provides wider benefits to the community that outweigh the flood risk and that it will be safe for its lifetime without increasing flood risk elsewhere—which was another point that noble Lords flagged up. Where possible, the development will reduce flood risk overall, such as through new flood defences. If there is a risk of flooding, a planning application has to be supported by a site-specific flood risk assessment. This is important because, where there is a risk of flooding, councils should give the go-ahead to new development only where, following the sequential and, if required, the exception tests, it can be demonstrated that what is to be built is flood resilient and resistant, and, as necessary, includes safe access and escape routes. Quite simply, in terms of flood risk, if there are better sites for developments, or developments demonstrated to be necessary are not made safe, they should not be permitted.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Northover]

As I said in my response, we are putting the onus on home owners to seek the information—and I have indicated where that can be acquired—rather than to receive the information, as the noble Lord suggests. I appreciate that this may not be quite as strong as he would wish, but nevertheless there are a number of different sources for this information and a number of ways in which property owners, when they are ceded to Flood Re, will be informed as to their status. If they make a claim they will obviously be informed that that is the case. Therefore there are a number of ways in which they will receive information, even if it is not quite as comprehensive as the noble Lord might wish.

[Lord Grantchester]

My Lords, I recognise the noble Baroness’s comments in welcoming many of my remarks. She maintains that there is a system in place concerning flood risk data, and I do not for a minute doubt that she is correct about that. While I am reassured, nevertheless I am concerned that people should be able to undertake their own research without the cost of expensive searches. My noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours has further argued that case. I suggest that those expensive searches may well occur further along the process of a purchase. Nevertheless, people these days are very much concerned that they are able to undertake easily, quickly and readily their own research. I will consider further what the noble Baroness said, but meanwhile I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Water Bill

Debate between Lord Grantchester and Baroness Northover

Tuesday 11th February 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grantchester (Lab)]

As my noble friend Lord Whitty said in relation to an earlier amendment, it is vital that there is clarity on aspects of the scheme, especially on defining the scheme concerning the inclusions and exclusions of property and responsibilities or liabilities around flood risk.

There appears to be a lack of clarity as regards the situation concerning owners of river banks and whether they are responsible upon the withdrawal of the Environment Agency from funding many aspects of flood prevention and the consequential third-party losses. The amendment seems to assume that the responsibilities of the Environment Agency will be reduced, as well as the funding. While there may be recognition that owners should be responsible for their own situations, it is nevertheless recognised that covering third-party losses could be severely onerous to riparian owners. This amendment seeks to limit their liability. Nevertheless, a limit to their liability begs the question of who would then take it on.

Even at this late hour, perhaps I may tempt the Minister. As regards limiting the liability of riparian owners, could they claim that a flood was an act of God? Is the Minister able to pass judgment on such things? However, this serious situation needs clarity, as landowners, farmers and even boating sports clubs could find themselves in severe difficulty alongside more affluent band H properties.

[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, far be it from me to judge upon acts of God or even the implications of the Equality Act.

I thank the noble Earl for his amendment, which I will address at a little length, as I think he would probably like to hear my comments. He speaks of instances where the Environment Agency might decide to withdraw from maintaining some flood management assets and suggests that this could create a challenging situation for landowners, residents and others affected. He will probably know that we are discussing those concerns with the Country Land and Business Association, to which he referred, and that my honourable friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State met it on 23 January.

We share the noble Earl’s wish to reduce the possibility of litigation, which is an aspect that is implied by some of the concerns expressed by the noble Earl. That is why we are promoting the asset maintenance protocol published by the Environment Agency. We strongly believe that developing partnerships and working arrangements between local parties to guarantee future maintenance is the best way to prevent problems arising that could lead to claims of liability.

The Environment Agency and other authorities maintain many thousands of flood defence assets. The situation to which the noble Earl refers is not one which is affected by this Bill. He is picking up instances where the Environment Agency may decide that it is no longer going to support certain flood defences and the responsibility for that would fall to others. So I would separate this issue from the Bill, as the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, sort of did.

The Environment Agency is looking to withdraw maintenance of some of these assets where maintenance is no longer economically justifiable or where the work may not have a high enough priority for central government funding over the longer term. Examples of such assets are embankments in rural areas that protect grazing land or small flow control structures such as gates or penstocks.

Understanding these concerns, the Environment Agency has published, and recently updated, a protocol explaining the processes it will follow. The agency is committed to bringing together landowners and other affected parties to make sure that they are clear on their respective roles and responsibilities and that they understand the range of options that may be available to them for future management of the assets and their likely costs, benefits and impacts. This may include options for continued maintenance of assets by local groups and options involving less or no maintenance. The agency will then work with all the interested parties to help them reach agreement on how the parties involved will take forward maintenance of the asset in the future. It is possible, for example, for the landowner on whose land a defence is situated to enter into an agreement to secure contributions from his neighbours towards the costs of maintenance and repairs.

We understand the noble Earl’s concerns about whether these agreements will be possible. However, it is important to remember that third parties are also expected to play their part. If third parties refuse to make reasonable contributions for the maintenance of a flood defence asset that is protecting their property, they could diminish the success of any future claims against the landowner.

The noble Earl has suggested regulations should be drawn up to set out what actions a landowner should take in order to meet any claims of liability. This would not be the simple clarification that the noble Earl might have been expecting. Such regulations would need to cover many types of assets, the type of location, as well as a list of all possible activities that might be appropriate for their maintenance. The regulations would need to address the range of impacts of flooding, ranging from a garden becoming waterlogged to flooding of many buildings and possible loss of life. Most importantly, the regulations would need to address such complications as a flood asset being owned by one or more landowners or a number of different beneficiaries of different means. Such regulations would be complex and, to be proportionate, would need to have an element of subjectivity to what a landowner would be required to do to avoid liability.

For that reason, we do not believe that such regulations could give significantly more certainty than the current case law. We firmly believe that use of the Environment Agency’s protocol gives all the parties involved a chance to ensure an outcome that reflects the particular situation and circumstances of each individual case, while avoiding the need for litigation between landowners. For these reasons I encourage the noble Earl to withdraw his amendment.

Water Bill

Debate between Lord Grantchester and Baroness Northover

Tuesday 4th February 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grantchester (Lab)]

My Lords, this amendment would ensure that the Consumer Council for Water would have to be consulted by the water and sewerage undertakers when they drew up their draft charging schemes. The importance of this is that it would allow the CCW to play a role from an early stage and provide the ability for it to flag problems then, before the relevant bills start arriving on customers’ doorsteps and further problems occur.

One example where the Consumer Council for Water had previously challenged a charging plan concerned some companies’ plans to restrict half-yearly payment options for those on direct debit payments. Some customers prefer to pay in that way, as it better enables them to manage their money. The elderly, in particular, may want to retain that option, so it is important that attempts by those companies to stop it were successfully challenged by CCWater. That is just the kind of circumstance that the amendment is designed to pre-empt.

That gives rise to a whole series of problems surrounding direct debits and whether there should be any extra charge for non-direct debit payments, which can be disguised as a discount for direct debits. That may become part of the Consumer Rights Bill, shortly to come before your Lordships’ House. Another example of the benefit that the amendment would create was provided when CCWater negotiated with companies not to backdate charges if a company was at fault for initial error that resulted in substantial backdated charges. That can be as simple as misreading of a water meter by the water company’s employees. It is clear that in such an environment it is always useful, and sometimes essential, for CCWater to have such a say before charging schemes are finalised. It ties in with other steps that we hope to take to protect consumers during the passage of the Bill, such as providing for collective redress where a number of consumers have been subject to detriment.

The amendment is short and simple. I therefore hope that the Minister will find that it makes sense to include it in the Bill. I beg to move.

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, has already highlighted the important work being done by the Consumer Council for Water, a view with which we very much concur. As he laid out, the purpose of his amendment is to require water and sewerage undertakers to consult the Consumer Council for Water on their draft charges schemes. That is clearly a reasonable objective. I therefore confirm that the Consumer Council for Water is in fact already routinely consulted by water companies on their charging schemes. That is in addition to the important work that CCWater undertakes to ensure that the consumer voice is heard during the price review process.

The noble Lord is right to say that the protection of consumers is essential, and never more so than in a sector with monopoly characteristics, such as water and the sewerage sector. CCWater plays a vital role in working with the water companies to ensure that their charges schemes do not have unintended consequences for hard-pressed customers, and we want that to continue.

I am therefore very happy to be able to reiterate the assurances already given in another place that the charging guidance produced by the Government will ensure that consumer groups such as CCWater continue to be properly consulted on company charges schemes in future. CCWater has identified its three top priorities in relation to the Bill. The third of those is that the charging guidance,

“should reflect that CCWater should be consulted by each company on its charges scheme and any changes to it before they are implemented”.

Once more, I confirm that the charging guidance produced by the Government will ensure that CCWater continues to be consulted on charges schemes. With that reassurance, I hope that the noble Lord will be content to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Grantchester]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister for that assurance. The provision should indeed, as a minimum, be included as statutory guidance. That is very well accepted by the Consumer Council for Water. However, we have received briefing from it that it is particularly keen that that should be written into the Bill. We will consult further and reflect on the Minister’s words but, in the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Legislative Reform (Constitution of Veterinary Surgeons Preliminary Investigation and Disciplinary Committees) Order 2013

Debate between Lord Grantchester and Baroness Northover

Thursday 10th January 2013 Grand Committee

[Lord Grantchester]

I thank the Minister for her explanation of the order before the Committee, ably supported by the noble Countess, Lady Mar, and the noble Baroness, Lady Byford. I will not detain the Committee long as this is a non-contentious updating of regulation in line with modern practice. In the other place, it was taken without debate as there was no dissent following the excellent second report of the House of Commons Regulatory Reform Committee. The report explains with great clarity the problem with the constitution of the disciplinary committees of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons as defined by the Veterinary Surgeons Act 1966, and sets out the proposed solution made under the Legislative and Regulatory Reform Act 2006 by ensuring that the same group of people in the veterinary profession is not responsible for setting the rules as well as investigating complaints and adjudication. It also introduces formally lay persons on to both the preliminary investigation committee and the disciplinary committee. In your Lordships’ House, the ninth report of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee cleared the order, satisfied that it meets the tests set out in the 2006 Act. The committee was also content with Defra’s proposal that the affirmative procedure should apply. From these Benches, I am happy to add our agreement to the order.

In assessing the order, notwithstanding the necessary updating of compliance, I wonder if there is evidence of problems that have arisen from the existing procedures. In my conversations with the royal college, I am grateful to Anthony Roberts who sent me the details of an appeal to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council against the judgment made exactly on the grounds that this order seeks to remedy; namely, that the profession’s disciplinary procedures were inherently unfair and against the Human Rights Act. This appeal in December 2011 was dismissed by the Privy Council, which noted that the royal college had gone to elaborate efforts to separate the membership and work of the committees that produce guidance, investigate complaints and pass judgment. It also noted that the RCVS had made strenuous efforts to ensure that its disciplinary procedures were fair and in accordance with human rights legislation. In addition, the Privy Council recognised that the veterinary profession’s regulatory framework was indeed constrained by the Veterinary Surgeons Act 1966, and the council therefore supported,

“statutory reform so as to enable members of the disciplinary committees to be chosen from outside the Council”.

This view from the Privy Council lends significant weight to the case for the legislative reform order before us.

I am also grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Trees, for his guidance on the situation. We look forward to his maiden speech tomorrow. He described this order as the most important reform of the profession since the 1966 Act. It is a discreet reform that is in the best interests of the public and the veterinary profession. It includes lay persons among the committee’s membership, thereby balancing public and professional interests.

I should like to tempt the Minister to comment further. The only sanction that the disciplinary committee has is to remove or suspend a veterinary surgeon from the register. This is a draconian power that disallows a vet from going about his or her business. When I commented on this to the noble Lord, Lord Trees, he said that the royal college has introduced further reforms to ensure that it remains at the forefront of regulatory best practice. The royal college has been able to widen its sanction measures by dealing compassionately with veterinary surgeons with health or mental health issues. I wonder whether further measures could be introduced, such as the power to fine or even to suspend penalties, although some may argue against this. Can the noble Baroness say whether other powers have been considered by her department, and what view she has in this regard? I know that the royal college has initiated a performance protocol which aims to allow the college to manage proportionately any justified concerns about professional performance and to launch a new code of professional conduct.

It is encouraging to see that the royal college is constantly seeking ways to improve and I commend it on its activities. Last November, it introduced its first-rate regulator initiative. Among the areas that the college has been reviewing is the regulation of veterinary nurses who are not subject to statutory regulation. Indeed, the title “veterinary nurse” is not protected. I understand that as long ago as 2007, the college introduced a non-statutory register for veterinary nurses under by-laws made under the royal charter. Mindful of the increasing role of veterinary nurses in practice teams and public expectations about professional accountability, what are the department’s views in this respect? In its discussion with the college, has the department come to a conclusion on how statutory regulations may be introduced, and to what timetable?

These further questions must not allow us to refrain from making progress today. I agree that the order before us must be passed to bring forward the necessary reforms, and I look forward to their implementation.

[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, I thank my noble friends Lady Mar and Lady Byford, and the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, for their fulsome support for this measure, and I wish that that was the case for all the departments that I cover. This is really refreshing, especially for my first SI for Defra.

The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, flagged up a couple of areas which I shall seek to address. As he will know, the Veterinary Surgeons Act 1966 regulates the profession of veterinary surgeons. We are aware that the college has been working to develop proposals for a framework for the statutory regulation of veterinary nurses, but these have not yet been presented to Defra for consideration.

In October last year, a project was launched that will see joint input from Defra officials and representatives from the veterinary profession and other para-professional industries to review how “minor acts of veterinary surgery” undertaken by non-veterinarians should be controlled in the future. Our general approach is that we would like to see a more effective but proportionate—echoing the word used by the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester—risk-based approach to this. We will look for a non-regulatory solution wherever possible and look forward to further discussions on this.

I was also asked about the fact that the only sanctions available to the college are those of removal or suspension and whether other powers are being considered. These could not be brought in using a legislative reform order, but we welcome what the college has done in terms of the health protocol. I have taken note of what the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, said, and given that I have been given various other pieces of information on this, I shall be happy to discuss the detail with him later. As he has said, we do not want to slow down the passing of this order.

I want also to echo what the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, said about the noble Lord, Lord Trees. I enormously appreciate the fact that he came to see me to express his support for this order, pointing out that he would have liked to have spoken in the debate but could not do so because he will be making his maiden speech in the debate tomorrow, which we look forward to hearing.

I thank all noble Lords for their support for this order and I will follow up on anything that has not been dealt with. In the mean time, I commend the order to the Committee.

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Grantchester and Baroness Northover

Wednesday 2nd March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grantchester]

With the permission of my noble friend Lord Whitty, I shall move his amendment. I pay tribute to him for his clear leadership on consumer interests. He has laid out in his amendment a very clear way forward regarding smart meters. I could not do justice to the exposition that he would have made far more adeptly than me. However, there is an important element that we should debate tonight and on which we should question the Minister on the way forward.

As we all know, there is considerable anxiety and resistance from consumers, arising by and large from misunderstandings over the operation of smart meters. However, smart meters offer the opportunity to reduce inaccurate bills to consumers, as well as to lower their costs. We had a full debate in Committee and wish to build on the positive discussions and proposals being considered with the Energy Retail Association and Energy UK, especially with regard to the code of practice. I know the Minister is also keen to bring in the benefits of smart meters in a constructive manner. He spoke in Committee of his dialogue with the energy companies, without saying exactly what he would do on this matter. This amendment would allow him to construct a good way forward. I beg to move.

[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, Amendment 157 draws attention to the need to ensure that the smart meter installation visit promotes consumer confidence and protects customers. We have already proposed to require suppliers to develop a code of practice governing the installation process and to ensure that the installation is not used for unwelcome sales activities.

Since the prospectus was published, suppliers have made good progress in drafting a code, with input from consumer groups and others. The smart metering programme has made it clear that the code will not be voluntary. We will shortly set out our detailed decisions in this area as part of the government response to the consultation. We have all the necessary powers to put the code in place, backed up by a licence obligation, under Section 88(3)(g) of the Energy Act 2008 as it now stands.

Amendment 158 in this group would require the Government to consult on a strategy to deliver the intended benefits of smart meters to consumers and to report on progress. Therefore, I assure your Lordships that the Government are clear that they are accountable for the successful delivery of the programme and its benefits. Indeed, this recognition was behind our recent decision that DECC would take direct responsibility for the next phase of the programme. We made this clear in announcing that decision in December, and it includes accountability for ensuring delivery of benefits.

However, provision in primary legislation is not required. Indeed, this provision would cut across the things that the Government are already doing to achieve the intent behind these amendments. The Government are already consulting on our strategy to achieve the benefits sought for the programme. As many of your Lordships will know, the Government published a prospectus in the summer last year containing a wide range of proposals for consultation. These proposals covered the policy design for the implementation of smart metering, including a wide range of proposals for the technical, commercial and regulatory arrangements required to deliver the benefits.

This has already been a very full and detailed consultation, with several hundred pages of published consultation documents. The prospectus was supported by two full impact assessments setting out clearly the benefits that we seek. We will shortly publish the conclusions of this process, which will confirm the Government’s strategy and plans. It would therefore be unnecessary to reconsult on this strategy and it would cast doubt on our conclusions to do so.

It is important to say that there will need to be further work to develop the benefits management arrangements and, crucially, the consumer engagement strategy. If necessary, we will bring forward proposals for changed or additional measures using the Secretary of State’s powers. It is also important that we have strong programme management arrangements, and that the measurement and reporting of benefits is robust and rigorous. We will set out how this will be taken forward. All these matters will be specifically addressed as the programme is taken forward by the Government.

I hope that the noble Lord will be able to assure his noble friend that much of what he is seeking is already in train and that his amendments would cut across that. I am sure that that is not what his noble friend intended. On that basis, I hope that the noble Lord will be willing to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord Grantchester]

I thank the Minister for her fulsome acknowledgement and exposition of where we are with smart meters and of everything that is going on within her department with regard to the industry. I shall certainly reassure my noble friend and he will enjoy the most fulsome remarks that she has just expounded. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Grantchester and Baroness Northover

Wednesday 2nd March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grantchester]

My Lords, these amendments to Clause 7 seek to strengthen the framework for ensuring the quality of Green Deal improvements and products, and address a number of points made in Committee. Amendment 17 provides that Green Deal improvements must meet standards set out in the code of practice, and that if the Government decide to use the power to create a list of products that meet the standard, this can be administered and updated frequently. Amendment 19 makes provision for a testing methodology and certification process for products. Amendment 20 is simply a repositioning of text which was previously contained in Clause 7(3)(a), and makes clear that the code of practice is issued under the authorisation scheme in the framework regulations.

In Committee, we had a full discussion on the challenge between the need for certainty of standards and codes, and their drafting and interpretation to the complexity in the housing stock. Although there was a recognition that certain standards of work, of procedures to follow, and of improvements in products should be consistent in the provision of the Green Deal, there was a recognition that flexibility would be required to meet varying properties with differing levels of energy efficiency. The Committee reconciled the differing approaches by expressing a wish for a guarantee of quality to be recognised, so that there would be consistency of outcomes that would provide a greater level of confidence, vitally required to produce the maximum uptake of the Green Deal. The Minister and his team have listened to what has been said on this. These amendments, as proposed by the Minister, meet the Committee’s concerns, and I am grateful that the Government have come forward with them on Report.

[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their contributions to this debate, and particularly the Opposition Front Bench for their welcome of the government amendments. The Government believe that the approach of my noble friend Lord Teverson could be permitted under these amendments, though I recognise that an ombudsman is not specifically mentioned. There has been quite a debate about how specific you should be, and on the pluses and minuses of that within this, which is a tension within the Bill as a whole. How do you ensure that you have got customer protection and standards, and how do you make sure that does not then become too prescriptive and restrictive? As the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, mentioned, there has been wide consultation with many of those who operate in this area, and I can assure him that, in terms of addressing these areas, the Government will continue to do that. Their experience of the problems that have arisen in the past will be very useful in terms of feeding in to ensure that the work taken forward addresses those kinds of problems.

The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, mentioned carbon monoxide monitors, and primary and secondary products like this do come under what we are discussing here. She recognises that my noble friend Lord Marland gave a very sympathetic hearing to the very important point that she made at an earlier stage. Again, that is something that comes within this.

The noble Lord, Lord Deben, is right about the difficulties of having a specific list and the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, also referred to that. It is extremely important that the Bill is not out of date by the time it is finally concluded in the other place. We have to be extremely careful about lists. There is a balance between trying to ensure that what happens is not too specific and that we have a high standard, but that we are stimulating innovation and not stifling it, as noble Lords said.

In the light of those assurances about what we seek to do, I trust that noble Lords will accept the government amendments. Although we fully understand where the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, is coming from with regard to the ombudsman, we hope that at this stage he will be willing to withdraw his amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, government Amendments 67, 68, 91 and 92 give the Secretary of State the power to expand the range of tenancy types that are within the definition of “domestic private rented property” in Clause 35. They also clarify that the Secretary of State is able to consider non-PRS properties in the review if he considers it appropriate to do so.

We committed to considering the amendments of my noble friend Lord Teverson and the noble Baroness, Lady Maddock, from Grand Committee on the definition of this type of property. After that consideration, we now propose these government amendments. These amendments also make it clear that the Secretary of State’s review of the PRS might include a review of the energy efficiency of other types of property if he or she considers it appropriate.

Amendment 67A would amend the definition with the intention of not excluding social housing from the PRS provisions within the Bill. After an extensive debate in Committee, we agreed that we want to see the social housing sector continuing to improve its energy efficiency performance. That sentiment still stands and the Government are actively engaging with the sector to ensure that this is the case under the Green Deal. However, we feel that in the context of the PRS provisions, which are all about targeting the worst performing housing sector, regulating social housing is not necessary at this stage.

In addition, the PRS and social housing sector are governed by very different frameworks. While the PRS includes a large number of landlords, each with a small number of properties, the social housing sector contains considerably fewer landlords each with hundreds or thousands of properties. These social landlords have been subject to previous requirements to invest in the energy efficiency of their stock. However, we want to encourage the social housing sector to continue to drive up standards across its stock and will be keeping a careful watch on the sector’s uptake of the Green Deal. With that explanation, I hope that noble Lords opposite will be content to withdraw Amendment 67A, and that the House as a whole will be willing to accept government Amendments 67, 68, 91 and 92. I beg to move.

[Lord Grantchester]

I have listened to the noble Baroness’s comments on the government amendments which enable the Government to extend a review of energy efficiency to the social rented housing sector and provide a flexible instrument for expanding the definition of “private rented sector” in the Bill to cover other types of property. We are most grateful to the noble Baroness for her explanation. In the light of these concessions and the conversations that we have had with the department on this subject, we no longer feel that it is necessary to move our own amendment on the future of social rented housing as it is clear that this type of housing is intended to fall within these provisions. As I say, I am very grateful to the noble Baroness for her explanation.

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Grantchester and Baroness Northover

Monday 31st January 2011 Grand Committee

[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, I should like to start by countering comments made by the noble Lord, Lord O’Neill, during a previous discussion. Far from feeling that I have drawn the short straw as the Whip, the opposite is the case. Not only is my noble friend Lord Marland taking the particularly complicated areas but—far more importantly—this is such an easy Bill. It is a Bill on which we are agreed across the Committee, so it is a great delight. Our purpose here is to refine how best to achieve the Bill’s objectives. That may not have been the noble Lord’s experience in the past, but if he watches me through these proceedings, he will notice how happy I am.

Amendment 33ZA provides that sufficient information must be disclosed to enable those involved in the Green Deal to decide what measures are appropriate for a property. However, Clause 70 is not intended to make data available for this purpose. If someone was considering how to improve a building’s energy efficiency, they would commission an EPC, which would include recommended measures to improve the energy efficiency of the building and form the basis of advice by a qualified Green Deal adviser on the most appropriate measures for the property.

The Green Deal adviser would calculate exactly how much money would need to be borrowed and the number and amount of repayments et cetera. This is all part of the discussion that a householder will need to have with the Green Deal adviser as part of the potential transaction. We do not consider it necessary or appropriate to stipulate this level of detail in legislation.

Amendment 33CA provides that, where a property is to be sold or rented out, the seller, prospective landlord or their agent must provide an EPC free of charge to a prospective buyer or tenant, the EPC should be no more than a year old and the person providing it must not believe that it is inaccurate. It has been a statutory requirement under existing regulations since October 2008 that an EPC is made available free of charge to a prospective buyer or tenant when a property is put on the market by the seller or prospective landlord. In the case of domestic sales, there is a duty on the agent to be satisfied that an EPC has been commissioned before marketing a property. A similar duty will be extended to agents in respect of domestic rentals and non-domestic transactions later this year.

As for the accuracy of EPCs, which is what the noble Lord is flagging up, I assure noble Lords that, under existing regulations, a duty of care is placed on the energy assessor to carry out energy assessments with reasonable skill and care. The only change that this amendment would introduce would be to provide that EPCs must be less than a year old. At present, an EPC can be up to 10 years old. In deciding on an appropriate validity period, we need to strike a balance between ensuring that an EPC contains up-to-date information and not requiring sellers or prospective landlords to incur unnecessary costs. In future, where improvement works are funded through the Green Deal, there will be an obligation to produce an updated EPC to capture the impact of the work on the energy efficiency of the property. While there will not be such an obligation where Green Deal finance was not used, it would be sensible for them to obtain an updated EPC that reflected the impact of any other work, because it will benefit them when seeking to sell or rent out the property. However, it is unnecessary to introduce a statutory obligation in such circumstances. I hope that noble Lords have found my explanation reassuring and will withdraw their amendment.

[Lord Grantchester]

I thank the noble Baroness for her understanding and for clarifying the situation regarding our two amendments. However, I may puzzle her for one second further—although she has been very clear in explaining the situation. If the information were to be inaccurate, would the costs then be passed on to the new owner or tenant? How would that situation be challenged?

[Baroness Northover]

As I mentioned, under existing regulations the duty of care placed on people in terms of producing the EPC could be relevant in this kind of circumstance. I will seek further clarification. Clearly, if somebody has already done work, that should assist. It is also the case that the energy assessor would be liable if the EPC was inaccurate.

[Lord Grantchester]

The noble Baroness is entirely correct. I thank her for bringing further light to the subject. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Grantchester and Baroness Northover

Wednesday 26th January 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Grantchester]

In moving the amendment, I shall speak also to Amendment 21E. Amendment 21D is a simple amendment for the Minister to consider. By inserting the words “or third party” we recognise that tenants may act together. The “third party” could include an agent acting for a group of tenants. We wish to clarify that that would be covered in the Bill.

In Amendment 21E, we are similarly considering appeals against sanctions. In an earlier instance relating to tenants, we on this side intimated strongly that the overuse of regulations should preclude regulations regarding appeals against sanctions. Just as we feel strongly that tenants should understand exactly what they may or may not do as a result of the Bill, we would wish landlords to understand exactly what they may or may not do if sanctions were to be levied against them. I beg to move.

[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords for the amendments proposed to Clause 42. Amendment 21D is not necessary, because I can clarify that a third party—a local residents’ association or similar body, for example—would be able to support tenants and take actions on their behalf, if the tenant so wished. However, I thank the noble Lord for raising this issue; we will consider it in more detail and, if necessary, return to it in secondary legislation.

Amendment 21E would remove the power which enables any new energy efficiency regulations to set out clearly the judicial procedures to be followed when a tenant applies to a court or tribunal for a ruling against a landlord. We believe that this existing requirement is essential to provide clarity in these circumstances, and we can assure the noble Lord that this is normal practice.

Given those explanations and assurances, I hope the noble Lord will be content to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Grantchester]

I thank the noble Baroness for her clarification and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Grantchester and Baroness Northover

Monday 24th January 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Teverson]

My Lords, I admit that I do not understand this amendment. I do not understand what it does. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, for his explanation, but I do not see how it relates to multiple tenancies. I apologise and will leave it at that.

[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, I am very grateful to noble Lords for their amendments to Clause 39. Amendment 20AAA would give local authorities the power to carry out improvement works if the landlord defaults, and to recover all reasonable costs for undertaking work. We are not convinced that it is appropriate to grant such powers. Local authorities already have the power under the Housing Act 2004 to carry out works and recover costs in cases where there is an immediate and serious threat to health and safety. We are not convinced that any further power is appropriate or proportionate.

I will address the point about a tenant dissenting. Sitting tenants will not be forced to take on a Green Deal, and secondary legislation will set out how this affects landlords' obligations under any PRS regulations. I hope that the noble Lord will be happy to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord Grantchester]

I am of course grateful for the questions on this matter, especially from the noble Lord, Lord Teverson. Perhaps later we will sit down and put our heads together. It could benefit all of us to read today's proceedings twice or three times to understand the different angles from which everyone has approached this. What I was referring to here, and perhaps did not explain clearly, is a situation where one tenant in a block of flats is holding out and the landlord does not go ahead because he does not have the full agreement of that tenant. I remember the point of the noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith, who asked: if there is no consent, where are we? The point of the amendment was to get over that hurdle and enable a local authority to step in if a landlord cannot carry on because one tenant refuses to make the improvements. However, at this time of the evening, and in view of all the debate that we have had, I suggest that we will all benefit from sitting down and thinking through where we are on the Bill. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Grantchester and Baroness Northover

Wednesday 19th January 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Grantchester]

My Lords, we are very encouraged that the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, is looking more widely than the simplistic interpretation of the Green Deal to make the greatest benefits available. We share his reflections on how local authorities can utilise their wide influence in the housing market to achieve added benefits.

As my noble friend Lord Whitty said, we were anxious when we looked at the drafting of the new clause that we should not overcomplicate the situation, because local authorities are involved in so many different facets of the local market, either as landlords, with other landlords or, under the wording of the new clause, acting as an agent for the building improver. We are concerned that that role needs to be clearly thought through: how they are working and interfacing with the different participants in the plan. For example, they may, through a housing association or through their managing agents, take on side or even employ an assessor in their area. That would put them straight in as a participant in the whole complex matrix of these arrangements.

However, we largely go along with the thrust of the noble Lord, Lord Teverson. Yes, we see that an added impact may be needed to bring the greatest benefits. To be fair, local authorities will be thinking how they can help their residents along the Green Deal plan to bring the greatest benefits to their communities. Under subsection (3) of the new clause they may be able themselves as landlord to offer rebates or think about incentives, but we think that if they are achieving added benefits by economies of scale, that may well be sufficient to provide incentives that will encourage a greater take-up of the Green Deal. We support the thrust of the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, and we would like the Minister to take it away to think about it, or tell us today what role she envisages in the matrix of the participants in the Green Deal that local authorities could be encouraged to take up.

[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, this group of amendments addresses the role of local authorities in relation to the Green Deal. We are very grateful to noble Lords for laying the amendments. We want and expect local authorities to exploit the opportunities that the Green Deal presents to them and to their residents. As the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, says, local authorities are indeed natural allies in this—as are housing associations, as the noble Lords, Lord Moynihan, Lord Dixon-Smith and Lord Whitty, observed.

I shall speak to Amendment 12 first. Section 2 of the Local Government Act 2000 already provides local authorities with a power to take any steps which they consider are likely to promote or improve the economic, social or environmental well-being of their local community. Local authorities are empowered to undertake a wide range of activities for the benefit of their local area and to improve the quality of life of local residents, businesses and those who commute to or visit the area. So certainly this could include local energy efficiency initiatives.

Moreover, the Green Deal will provide strong natural incentives and varied opportunities for councils to engage with and deliver it, in particular, the incentive of attracting new and additional sources of finance into their local areas to benefit local residents. Councils may, for example, choose to become Green Deal providers themselves operating on a commercial basis. Others may want to form partnerships with Green Deal providers working with them to ensure the widest possible availability and take-up of offers in their community. As trusted local brokers with knowledge of their housing stock, local authorities will be attractive partners for Green Deal providers. They will therefore be in a good position to negotiate advantageous programmes for their residents—for example, to deliver economies of scale and incentives, as the noble Lords, Lord Teverson and Lord Whitty, noted.

Many local authorities are currently working with the energy companies and others to deliver the community energy saving programme, which specifically targets whole-house, community-wide delivery of energy efficiency measures. We are carrying out a formal evaluation of this programme, which will complete in March of this year. That will therefore feed in. Anecdotal evidence to date suggests that CESP is delivering projects ranging from 100 to 1,200 properties, and because of this is achieving significant economies of scale. This experience is informing and will continue to inform the development of the Green Deal.

As the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, notes, a number of local authorities already use council tax rebates as incentives. British Gas has worked with around 70 councils to offer a rebate on council tax bills for households who take up their CERT cavity wall or loft insulation offers. The rebate is funded by British Gas, although in some instances the council also match-fund. Local authorities will also often contribute resources for marketing, such as council-branded leaflets. Rebates, which are limited to one per household, vary from £50 up to £125 depending on the council involved. However, I note the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, on CERT and fuel poverty.

We fully expect local authorities to build on this experience and work with Green Deal providers and others to deliver schemes to whole communities. We are working closely with local authorities to understand and develop the roles that they might play in delivering and promoting the Green Deal and how to disseminate good practice, including thinking about how best to enable and incentivise such methods in delivering the Green Deal

Moving on to Amendment 31, the well-being power in the Local Government Act 2000 could already enable local authorities to propose, plan and deliver energy efficiency measures and programmes for their communities, and we will explore this further with CLG Ministers. Indeed, many councils already have a strong track record in delivering in this area, working in partnership with energy companies and others. As I have noted, the Green Deal will further incentivise this, and we are aware of a number of councils which are already considering how they might deliver the Green Deal. The noble Baroness, Lady Maddock, has a long track record in this area, and I note her concern to ensure that the take-up of this scheme is as wide as possible, building on the work of the Home Energy Conservation Act.

This Government fully support local residents in having a strong influence over their local council. I note that that principle underpins this amendment. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government has brought forward the Localism Bill to provide councils and local residents with a greater ability to deliver local priorities without necessarily having Whitehall direction on what they must do or how they should deliver locally. For example, the general power of competence proposed in the Localism Bill is based on a fundamental assumption that local authorities should be free to act in the interests of their local communities, except where restricted by statutory limitations or restrictions. We believe that freeing local councils to act and working to create the right incentives is the way to ensure that local authorities and local residents take up the opportunities presented by the Green Deal and the future energy company obligation.

While we are sympathetic to these proposals in terms of local government involvement in the Green Deal, incentives to use the Green Deal, and encouraging take-up, all of which are extremely important, we hope that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment. But I hope that noble Lords will be reassured by our continuing exploration of the role of local authorities in this area and by our recognition of how important they are in this regard, and how best to encourage take-up of this scheme.

[Lord Grantchester]

My Lords, we are continually told that we are not in normal times at the moment. What confidence does the noble Baroness have that local authorities, under the present budgetary controls, will take up the empowerment clauses about which she has just told us?

[Baroness Northover]

As the noble Lord will have noted, obviously there are economies of scale when local authorities are dealing with this. Therefore, there is the incentive in that of being able to provide for local residents a better deal if they access these funds and we expect that they would see this as the route to go down. All these areas will, of course, be looked at carefully to try to ensure that the Green Deal is as effective as possible, which is what we all, in any party, even in these tight financial circumstances, wish to see.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Grantchester]

Perhaps we may be indulgent for a few minutes more. We looked at Clause 9 to see how it fits with Clauses 10 and 11 in referring the confirmation of plan, and how this applies in England, Wales and Scotland and in updating information. I speak only to Clause 9; the point is echoed in Clauses 10 and 11. Together with my noble friend Lord Whitty, our antennae prick up when under Clause 9(3)(c) appears the imposition of a requirement to pay a fee. That is replicated in a similar fashion. Perhaps the Minister could clarify why there is a fee, the level to which he thinks a fee may be appropriate and who will be liable to pay that fee under this clause.

[Baroness Northover]

I am informed that mention is made of this simply for administrative purposes. Your Lordships will note that Clause 9 provides that framework regulations may allow a fee to be imposed. No doubt that is simply an enabling thing, but if I am wrong about it I shall come back and clarify.

[Lord Grantchester]

I thank the Minister—that is most helpful. It has opened up the possibility of a dialogue so that we can understand better.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Grantchester]

Perhaps I may ask the indulgence of the Committee yet again, rather than introduce a specific amendment. I want to pick up the principle as outlined in Clause 12. It has a crossover into Clause 13. It relates to our discussion of the disclosure of a Green Deal plan in connection with the sale or letting out. I well understand the clause and go along with the thrust of it. Previously in Committee, we identified that there could well be an energy plan put forward on a property in respect of which the Green Deal plan is a subset. We wonder whether it would make sense for the Minister and his team to go away and think about whether, if an energy plan attaches to a property, it may be attached to a Green Deal plan such that there is clarity on the property that passes from one occupant to the next. That seems sensible to us. If under energy conservation a landlord, tenant or bill payer may undertake a wider energy plan of which an element of the Green Deal may not apply, it would make sense if that could attach to the disclosures under Clause 12.

[Baroness Northover]

I thank the noble Lord for raising that. This relates specifically to a Green Deal plan. I am sure that anyone selling a property in the circumstances that he mentioned may want to emphasise the additional work that has been done. This relates specifically to the Green Deal in trying to ensure that there is transparency and clarity for anyone buying a property or anyone taking up a tenancy on a property. It places an obligation on sellers, landlords and licensors of properties to disclose the existence of a Green Deal plan. It is fairly specific, with the intention that there is the clarity and transparency that the Opposition and the Government are keen to see.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Grantchester]

I support my noble friend in his Amendment 18 and his proposal regarding early repayment penalties under Amendment 19. My noble friend and other noble Lords spoke strongly about this issue when it was discussed earlier. The Minister replied that, if this provision was taken out, it could lead to an awkward situation in which it would be open for different people to charge different levels of fees. Perhaps the Minister could take this away. If she could propose that no penalty fees would be levied in this situation under the Bill, that would sort the problem out and not leave it to the providers to decide. If it is not covered, there would be a disparity in the fees and penalties that could be levied.

[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, Clause 30 allows regulations to be made that set out when and how a bill payer’s liability to make Green Deal repayments can be cancelled or suspended. Amendment 18 would prevent the regulations from making provision for a procedure to be followed for securing such suspension or cancellation of the repayments. Noble Lords have made the point about this being proportionate and not abused.

An example of when the bill payer’s liability might be cancelled is where the bill payer had chosen to make full early repayment of the Green Deal finance arrangement. In such an eventuality, there may be a need to include an administration fee. I will turn to why that might be in a minute. As discussed earlier, such a fee would be calculated in line with the rules of the Consumer Credit Act for the domestic Green Deal and in line with the regulations that we propose to set out in secondary legislation for the business Green Deal. This clause also gives us the flexibility to introduce a payment suspension mechanism for the bill payer in appropriate circumstances.

The legislation permits an administration fee to be requested for the arrangement of payment suspension. This is essential to balance the needs of the property owner to have flexibility while minimising the loss that the provider of finance might incur. The details of this—for example, when such a fee might be requested and the level of such a fee—will be subject to consultation later this year.

Amendment 19 would remove the ability to set out in regulations what should be payable in the event of early repayment of the Green Deal being required, including how any fee should be calculated. The effect of this amendment would be to prevent the regulations setting out the rules on early repayment from being set out in Green Deal plans.

The domestic Green Deal is subject to the early repayment rules set out in the Consumer Credit Act, which prevents consumers from being charged unreasonable fees when they repay early. However, business Green Deal providers are not subject to any existing regulations on early repayment fees. This amendment would remove the ability for the Government to set out regulations limiting the fees that can be charged when a business is required to repay the Green Deal early.

Early repayment fees are an important protection for the investor providing the finance. They have invested their money expecting a particular rate of return over a particular period. Being able to claim some compensation when an early repayment is made is an important element to keep the cost of finance low. This practice is not uncommon in the mortgage market.

However, we do not want Green Deal providers to charge disproportionate fees when early repayment is required, so the ability to set out some rules around this in secondary legislation is important. There is a danger that these amendments could remove that protection, which I think is far from the intention of the mover of the amendment. I hope that noble Lords will be reassured by my explanation and, on that basis, that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Grantchester and Baroness Northover

Monday 17th January 2011 Grand Committee

[Baroness Northover]

I am asking that Amendment 1D be withdrawn and that Amendment 2AA, when we come to it, is accepted, and that the objection to the clause standing part is rejected and the clause accepted.

[Lord Grantchester]

I thank the noble Baroness for her words. I have a sense that she is going to take away Amendments 1D and 2A and think about them. I wonder whether it matters that they may or may not duplicate provisions but I shall leave that with her. We can now move on to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin. I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 1D.