Water Bill

Baroness Northover Excerpts

Tuesday 11th February 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for her amendment. We agree with her that it is important for the necessary information to go to the relevant people and for the relevant groups to be consulted in the way that she says. I emphasise that we are here retaining all the powers that are already in place; this is just about not having to publish in local newspapers. I will just go through that: I think she has picked up on the key points anyway.

We consider that the requirement for the internal drainage boards and the Environment Agency to advertise a range of notices, procedures and orders in newspapers is inflexible, out of date—given the range of media now available—and often wasteful of public funds. We are therefore introducing more flexibility to the advertising arrangements. This is in line with recent legislation, such as the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009 and the Flood and Water Management Act 2010, which allows relevant authorities to publish documents without being prescriptive in how they do so.

Internal drainage boards have complained that advertising in local newspapers can be costly and that, in some areas, it does not represent best value for money in reaching out to the relevant communities. We also understand that some local newspapers may not be widely distributed in rural communities, or in some cases may no longer be published. Our changes will allow for both a wider and a more targeted distribution of notices. This could mean, for example, distribution through the use of electronic means, parish notice boards or, in the way that she indicated, school notice boards and so on, while retaining a fair, open and inclusive process.

The Environment Agency and IDBs will still have a requirement to publish notices and bring these notices to the attention of the people who will be affected by the changes; I hope that is the reassurance that the noble Baroness needs. We are, however, keen to take full advantage of the extensive local knowledge and experience of internal drainage boards and the Environment Agency by enabling them to reach out to the communities affected by any changes in the most cost-effective way.

Therefore, I can assure my noble friend that we are not telling internal drainage boards and the Environment Agency not to use local newspapers. If they consider this to be a cost-effective way of getting their information out, they may still do so, as well as making use of other media. We agree that local people should be consulted in the way that my noble friend suggests. I hope that I have reassured my noble friend and that she will be content to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville]

I thank the Minister for her comments. I welcome the increased flexibility on advertising that she detailed and accept completely that, if the internal drainage boards are the bodies that decide how to advertise the alterations, then I should be happy with that. It seems that a wider and targeted approach is going to come forward, so I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

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[Lord Grantchester (Lab)]

As my noble friend Lord Whitty said in relation to an earlier amendment, it is vital that there is clarity on aspects of the scheme, especially on defining the scheme concerning the inclusions and exclusions of property and responsibilities or liabilities around flood risk.

There appears to be a lack of clarity as regards the situation concerning owners of river banks and whether they are responsible upon the withdrawal of the Environment Agency from funding many aspects of flood prevention and the consequential third-party losses. The amendment seems to assume that the responsibilities of the Environment Agency will be reduced, as well as the funding. While there may be recognition that owners should be responsible for their own situations, it is nevertheless recognised that covering third-party losses could be severely onerous to riparian owners. This amendment seeks to limit their liability. Nevertheless, a limit to their liability begs the question of who would then take it on.

Even at this late hour, perhaps I may tempt the Minister. As regards limiting the liability of riparian owners, could they claim that a flood was an act of God? Is the Minister able to pass judgment on such things? However, this serious situation needs clarity, as landowners, farmers and even boating sports clubs could find themselves in severe difficulty alongside more affluent band H properties.

[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, far be it from me to judge upon acts of God or even the implications of the Equality Act.

I thank the noble Earl for his amendment, which I will address at a little length, as I think he would probably like to hear my comments. He speaks of instances where the Environment Agency might decide to withdraw from maintaining some flood management assets and suggests that this could create a challenging situation for landowners, residents and others affected. He will probably know that we are discussing those concerns with the Country Land and Business Association, to which he referred, and that my honourable friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State met it on 23 January.

We share the noble Earl’s wish to reduce the possibility of litigation, which is an aspect that is implied by some of the concerns expressed by the noble Earl. That is why we are promoting the asset maintenance protocol published by the Environment Agency. We strongly believe that developing partnerships and working arrangements between local parties to guarantee future maintenance is the best way to prevent problems arising that could lead to claims of liability.

The Environment Agency and other authorities maintain many thousands of flood defence assets. The situation to which the noble Earl refers is not one which is affected by this Bill. He is picking up instances where the Environment Agency may decide that it is no longer going to support certain flood defences and the responsibility for that would fall to others. So I would separate this issue from the Bill, as the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, sort of did.

The Environment Agency is looking to withdraw maintenance of some of these assets where maintenance is no longer economically justifiable or where the work may not have a high enough priority for central government funding over the longer term. Examples of such assets are embankments in rural areas that protect grazing land or small flow control structures such as gates or penstocks.

Understanding these concerns, the Environment Agency has published, and recently updated, a protocol explaining the processes it will follow. The agency is committed to bringing together landowners and other affected parties to make sure that they are clear on their respective roles and responsibilities and that they understand the range of options that may be available to them for future management of the assets and their likely costs, benefits and impacts. This may include options for continued maintenance of assets by local groups and options involving less or no maintenance. The agency will then work with all the interested parties to help them reach agreement on how the parties involved will take forward maintenance of the asset in the future. It is possible, for example, for the landowner on whose land a defence is situated to enter into an agreement to secure contributions from his neighbours towards the costs of maintenance and repairs.

We understand the noble Earl’s concerns about whether these agreements will be possible. However, it is important to remember that third parties are also expected to play their part. If third parties refuse to make reasonable contributions for the maintenance of a flood defence asset that is protecting their property, they could diminish the success of any future claims against the landowner.

The noble Earl has suggested regulations should be drawn up to set out what actions a landowner should take in order to meet any claims of liability. This would not be the simple clarification that the noble Earl might have been expecting. Such regulations would need to cover many types of assets, the type of location, as well as a list of all possible activities that might be appropriate for their maintenance. The regulations would need to address the range of impacts of flooding, ranging from a garden becoming waterlogged to flooding of many buildings and possible loss of life. Most importantly, the regulations would need to address such complications as a flood asset being owned by one or more landowners or a number of different beneficiaries of different means. Such regulations would be complex and, to be proportionate, would need to have an element of subjectivity to what a landowner would be required to do to avoid liability.

For that reason, we do not believe that such regulations could give significantly more certainty than the current case law. We firmly believe that use of the Environment Agency’s protocol gives all the parties involved a chance to ensure an outcome that reflects the particular situation and circumstances of each individual case, while avoiding the need for litigation between landowners. For these reasons I encourage the noble Earl to withdraw his amendment.

[The Earl of Lytton]

My Lords, at this hour of the night it is not my intention to press the amendment; as I said at the outset, it is a probing one. I am grateful to the Minister for her explanation. I am aware of the ongoing discussions and I appreciate that this matter sort of sits outside the Bill. I suppose that if I have a hook to hang it on, it is the situation where somebody might be protected by such works and finds they are no longer protected and unable to get full cover insurance. They then go looking for the next deep pocket in order to press a claim, so the geometry of the circumstances might change.

However, it is right that the matter should be discussed by the industries concerned. I would hope that the protocol would at least give some protection in the sense that, if one had done something in accordance with the protocol that was agreed between the parties, that would be a reasonable defence in law. However, I do not think that I can ask the noble Baroness to go into that sort of detail. I would like to reserve my position in case it is necessary for me to come back to this at a later stage of the Bill but, in the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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This amendment provides the opportunity to address that issue, which has two concerns; namely, the environment in which people live and the rights of people to be treated equally. I beg to move.

[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for raising an issue which is clearly of no small importance to any community affected. Section 101A relates to a “Further duty to provide sewers” to relieve environmental and amenity issues caused by inadequate sewerage. This section applies to “premises” and “buildings” and the amendment seeks to change that to make the duty apply to structures which may not currently be considered buildings for the purposes of this duty.

In the case of Traveller sites, such as the one she referred to at Chesterton Fen near Cambridge, when considering an appeal in respect of a decision not to provide a sewer under Section 101A, the Environment Agency will look at the case for each individual caravan on the basis of its size, permanence and degree of physical attachment to the land. To vary the definition in this section would potentially have far-ranging and unintended consequences. We feel that the best route is to meet my noble friends to discuss their concerns further. On that basis, I hope that she will be prepared to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Humphreys]

I thank my noble friend for her reply. Given the degree of reassurance she has given me, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.