Baroness Northover
Main Page: Baroness Northover (Liberal Democrat - Life peer)Energy Bill [HL]
Baroness Northover Excerpts(13 years, 3 months ago)
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Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, we have discussed before the issue of skills and whether there will be enough people with the skills required to undertake the Green Deal. Amendment 20DZA would require the Government to report to Parliament before any orders or regulations were made to state where we are on the issue of skills and, in particular, on introducing Green Deal apprenticeships. When we discussed this issue, there was wide agreement on the need to ensure that the workforce has the skills available. At the weekend, the Minister for Skills made an interesting statement that recognised the need to appreciate and value skills in manufacturing and engineering. Clearly, if we are to reach the desired level of Green Deal take-up, we will need significantly to upgrade skills in engineering as well as in science and technology.
I recommend to the Minister the Aldersgate Group’s report, Mind the Gap: Skills for the transition to a low carbon economy, which was published in November 2009. The group is a high-level coalition of businesses, environmental groups, individuals who have been involved in employment and trade unions, all of whom are keen to ensure that we capitalise on the number of jobs that can be made available through environmental work. The group believes that high environmental standards could ensure that we are an international leader in the field. The report—the outcome of a project chaired by former TUC president John Edmonds—is, I found, very helpful. Its key point is that, whatever the speed of our transition to a low-carbon economy, we need to fix the skills shortage in those areas. We are not talking about a completely new skills set so we do not need to build up new skills from scratch, but we certainly need training courses and further work to enhance the current skills set.
The biggest problem identified in the Aldersgate Group report is that, because the debate on the workforce skills has moved on so quickly, people at various levels in engineering and manufacturing in the UK—including at the highest management levels—have not really understood the implications of the degree of change that needs to be made. If we are to meet the significant challenges that we want the Green Deal to overcome, we must ensure that the skills are available. Companies will need to understand the nature of the change and explain the required skills to the workforce.
A number of recommendations in the Aldersgate Group report and in other reports—including some from the Government—deal with very similar issues. What is clear from all the reports that I have looked at is that business needs certainty from Government if it is to invest in skills and equipment. The Government have the responsibility to work alongside industry and those involved in training to ensure that we have the right kind of training programmes at the right time, with the right level of skills and the right kind of skills.
These are significant issues that the Government need to address. All that we ask today is that the Government take this away, look at the level of change that is required and ensure that there are Green Deal apprenticeships in place so that we have the take-up, which will initially come through owner-occupiers—we will come later to the issue of the delays that are currently envisaged in the private rented sector. We need to ensure that we have the necessary number of people who are fully trained to undertake the jobs required.
Amendment 20DZA is a probing amendment. I will be interested in the response from the Minister, but we may want to return to the issue, as we feel that it is crucial to the success of the Green Deal.
Baroness Northover
My Lords, the Green Deal will require a trained workforce to install measures in a safe, competent and professional manner. This will be assured by a new Green Deal quality mark and accreditation framework. The noble Baroness is right that this is going to be an area for jobs growth, and the Aldersgate Group is right to highlight that. It is estimated that, as a result of the Green Deal, 100,000 jobs will be created by 2015 and 270,000 by 2025. Business does indeed need certainty, and this Bill is part of providing that certainty and the way forward.
As the noble Baroness will know, this Government have previously pledged to increase the number of apprenticeships available across all sectors. It is a promising sign that the insulation industry has already launched a pilot apprenticeship scheme, which it hopes to expand over the next year in anticipation of the Green Deal. We welcome this development and we will work with the industry to promote the use of apprentices where possible. We will be speaking further with ministerial counterparts in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills about this matter and we will continue to liaise with them over this.
However, we feel that Amendment 20DZA as drafted may interfere with the degree of flexibility necessary to tailor the Green Deal training to the needs of the sector and may risk forcing training opportunities down an inappropriate route. We understand the purposes behind the amendment. On that basis, I hope that noble Lords will be happy that the amendment be withdrawn.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment 20DZA withdrawn.
Clause 33 agreed.
After Clause 33
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, we are getting to the complexities and challenges of the Green Deal. We had early indications this afternoon of the problems in the private rented sector; they are not solely in that sector, but they mushroom in significant ways so far as it is concerned. The important statistic that the noble Lord, Lord Best, brought in identifies the challenges before us. As the noble Lord, Lord Deben, argued on the previous amendment, it is no doubt important that we get as much information across as we can both to landlords and to tenants. This is a major public information task, and we should make sure that this legislation enhances and creates the opportunities for the spread of as much information as possible. Of course, as my noble friend Lord O’Neill identified, there will be groups who are difficult to reach and for whom the relevance will be limited; that is where a significant challenge is represented by this legislation. We want the Minister’s assurance that he appreciates how important it is that the legislation be as enhancing as it can be on the need to distribute information so far as possible, and that we succeed in bringing the nation on board with regard to the objectives, benefits and significance for society. We have a whole range of private interests that are massively diverse, so we should recognise the challenge that the Government face.
Baroness Northover
My Lords, it is vital as a thread running through this debate that we ensure that this deal has as wide an impact as possible, and we welcome the input that noble Lords are putting into how that is to be achieved.
The nature of the review, as my noble friend Lord Marland has indicated, will be discussed in a bit more detail shortly. I would note to the noble Lord, Lord O’Neill, in terms of hurdles to tenants, that this is one of the reasons we want to give local authorities the power if needed to require improvements in the worst accommodation. When my noble friend Lord Teverson said that he had to declare an interest, I was hoping that it was not that he was a landlord of the type mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord O’Neill; it was reassuring that he was of the type mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Best.
I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, for tabling this amendment, which would require that the review investigates the willingness of tenants to take on Green Deal repayments. We understand the intent behind this proposal. As she herself said, the golden rule should mean that tenants’ bills should not go up as a result of the Green Deal because of the energy savings they will be making. I see her slightly dissenting. That is part of the way this has been structured but we are well aware of the points that have been made in previous debates on that.
Baroness Noakes
Perhaps I can clarify the golden rule. The issue is that tenants have different time horizons so a tenant might be looking at a one or two-year time horizon for their tenancy, which is quite different from the time horizon of looking out over a 25-year period of an occupancy or long-term tenancy. That may well create difficulties in the rented sector because tenants analyse things differently. The point I was trying to make was that the golden rule does not help to give a guide to rational decision-making for tenants.
Baroness Northover
I understand what the noble Baroness is saying. These are all areas which the department is looking at. However, I point out that the Bill already ensures that sitting tenants must give their express consent before a Green Deal can be taken out, so if a tenant feels that it is to their detriment, they have the right to refuse. Similarly, landlords must make clear to new tenants if a Green Deal is attached to a rental property before they sign a contract.
Given that these consumer safeguards are already in place, and bearing in mind what the noble Baroness is saying, I hope that at this stage she feels able to withdraw her amendment.
Lord Teverson
I ask the Minister what happens when we have a change of tenancy and the golden rule is met by the first tenant whose energy use is quite high, so it works, but the new tenant is a lower energy user. They may be a smaller family or a smaller household or have a different preference as to how they spend their money. The golden rule that was met by the first tenant might not be met by the second and yet, because there is such a competition for rented accommodation, you will possibly get a position where the incoming tenant, although warned, will just say yes anyway.
I wonder if the Minister could remind us—or me—if there is an opportunity for the Green Deal to be renegotiated at that point or does the higher electricity rate stay the same all the way through? This may be important in terms of this change and whether subsequent families could be put into energy poverty.
Baroness Noakes
Perhaps I may clarify the aspect of the review that I was probing. While the consent of the individual tenant to a Green Deal may be required, the point of making sure that this is covered in the review is that if there was widespread tenant apathy or unwillingness to get involved because of the issues that I have raised, there would be little point in going ahead with a regulatory approach, which is what Chapter 4 allows the Government to do. I also suggested that the tenant environment should be properly assessed before we go down the regulatory route. That is why I tabled the amendment.
Baroness Northover
I hear what my noble friend says. We will debate the review in more detail. My noble friend Lord Marland has indicated that, in addition to the areas that are listed in connection with the review, there is the possibility that it will consider other things. It may be that the department should give some thought to this area.
I will respond to my noble friend Lord Teverson. I am concentrating on DfID, justice, et cetera. I am pretty sure that in this situation, should a tenant decide that they want to take a holiday from opting into the Green Deal, that would be possible. I remember being briefed on that. That may fit the situation that the noble Lord spoke about in which a tenant decides that it is not in their interest that the Green Deal is pushed down the track and that they do not want to repay the charge. I will make absolutely sure that I am right about that.
I am briefed that one cannot renegotiate the charge, but one can have a repayment holiday. Therefore, should the tenant decide in that instance that that is what they want to do, that would be possible. It does not mean that the money does not have to be paid back. However, it may not have to be paid back by that particular tenant at that time. It has also been pointed out to me that there will be a Green Deal ombudsman who will provide some protection. I hope that that will reassure noble Lords.
Lord Davies of Oldham
The Minister is doing her best in what we all appreciate is a very difficult area. We all understand that the tenant’s response is optional. We discussed this in the previous sitting of the Committee. We cannot have a situation where a tenant exercises an absolute veto, because one person might operate a veto on 400 fellow tenants, all of whom agreed to the change. We all recognise that there is no veto. However, there is an issue about a tenant's consent and subsequent payments. The Minister is leading us down some strange paths. Are we saying that the holiday could last for the whole period of their tenancy, however long that might be? Who makes the judgment on the right to opt out of an agreement that admittedly may have preceded their arrival in the tenancy? How do they exercise the opt-out, for how long, in which circumstances and who is the adjudicator?
Lord Deben
My Lords, I do not think we ought to take it quite as simply as that. One of the things we learned from the Warm Homes operation—which I had the privilege of introducing—was that many people live, as far as their heating is concerned, to the level that they can afford. If their house becomes better insulated, what happens is not that they have a lower bill: they merely warm the house better than they were able to do before. In other words, this is not as simple a mathematical equation as one might think.
I am worried about the concept of a sort of holiday. If someone enters a tenancy where the agreement has been made already, they will know the terms of the tenancy: it will be part of what they are offered. It does not seem possible that anyone can have a holiday in those circumstances, because that is what they joined in the first place. I realise that we have chosen to concentrate on people at the bottom end, with perhaps little choice in the tenancy they have. I very much agree with the comments made about some landlords. However, in my experience of having had a lot of landlords in my former constituency, a good number were decent. In those circumstances all I am suggesting is that when people enter into an agreement, they know what the situation is, and there certainly should not be a holiday.
The only circumstance seems to be the first one, where people are actually able to control the heating bills. If you have better insulation, you can decide whether you are going to continue with the amount of heating you had before—in other words the price you had before—but get more benefit from it because the house is better insulated. Alternately, you may decide—and many people do—that you would prefer to get even warmer. I am sure people who have gone canvassing know that there are certain houses where you bang on the door and cannot stop yourself stepping back from the wave of heat that hits you. It is not always true that we are sensible about our heating. The fact is that these things are within the control of the tenant, and I find it difficult to understand why we are going down this line. Tenants have a good deal here, paid for by the state, and it is absolutely right; but do not let ourselves get into a position in which we find that tenants are able to turn up the heat and then ask for a holiday because it does not work out as they thought it would.
Baroness Northover
Before I get dispatched back to DfID, justice, and all the other areas I am supposed to be covering, I think I had better pull myself back and make sure that the whole area is reported on in due course. As I mentioned before, we will be looking at this review in a bit more detail in a later grouping, and no doubt my noble friend Lord Marland will be able to put everybody—including me—absolutely straight as to what the situation is. I very much welcome the noble Lord, Lord Davies, trying to stop me going down roads I should not go down, and I very much welcome the noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith, explaining with such clarity how the golden rule works so that it should indeed be to everybody’s benefit and so that, I hope, we will not find ourselves in difficult situations.
Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan
I would like to ask the noble Baroness one further question. What will happen in the short tenancy housing market if landlords start increasing the rent on the basis that the house is now better insulated as a consequence of the Green Deal? That would mean that subsequent tenants would be paying twice—once for the improved property, and secondly for the improvement. Is there an ombudsperson who is going to take care of that?
Baroness Northover
I will resist the temptation to speculate about areas that I may be less than well briefed on. If the noble Lord wishes to bring that up again when my much better briefed noble friend Lord Marland is dealing with a suitable amendment, I would welcome that he does that. ECO will target households and presumably subsidise poorer ones. However, before I get myself into any more of a complicated mess, I invite the noble Baroness, having led me down various alleys, to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Noakes
My Lords, I am happy to withdraw the amendment. I think that we have opened up a number of interesting areas in the debate on my small amendment. I cannot pretend that the Minister has answered all the points to the satisfaction of the Committee. I feel sure that, in one way or another, we will return to this topic when we reach Report stage; but, for the time being, I beg leave to withdraw.
Lord Teverson
I apologise for having asked the Minister a not particularly helpful question earlier. I want only to make a brief point that relates to this issue, and I should declare that I am a member of a local authority. I welcome the fact that local authorities are being brought back into the frame as well as the recognition that there will be implications at a time of financial stringency but, as the noble Baroness has said, local authorities will want to become involved in this area, and it is really important that they are. However, there is a slight irony here in that I am concerned that sometimes local authorities are unable to control building regulations sufficiently to minimise the amount of work that has to be done on these sorts of deals. If buildings are constructed to the specifications set out in the building regulations when they are first built, the problems might not be as great as they are now. The enforcement of building regulations and standards of insulation is a lesson because where in the past money has been saved in these areas, that has not had a good effect in terms of housing and energy performance standards for the future. I make the point, but it is not necessarily completely relevant to this amendment.
Baroness Northover
I thank the noble Baroness for her straightforward amendment and acknowledge her concern about the funding of any additional burdens on local authorities. I can assure noble Lords that should we require local authorities to carry out any new duties, we will make a full assessment of the costs of such actions and how they might be appropriately funded. We are already committed to ensuring that new burdens on local authorities are properly funded to avoid pressure on council tax. With this explanation and assurance, I hope that the noble Baroness will be content to withdraw her amendment.
Lord Teverson
My Lords, I admit that I do not understand this amendment. I do not understand what it does. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, for his explanation, but I do not see how it relates to multiple tenancies. I apologise and will leave it at that.
Baroness Northover
My Lords, I am very grateful to noble Lords for their amendments to Clause 39. Amendment 20AAA would give local authorities the power to carry out improvement works if the landlord defaults, and to recover all reasonable costs for undertaking work. We are not convinced that it is appropriate to grant such powers. Local authorities already have the power under the Housing Act 2004 to carry out works and recover costs in cases where there is an immediate and serious threat to health and safety. We are not convinced that any further power is appropriate or proportionate.
I will address the point about a tenant dissenting. Sitting tenants will not be forced to take on a Green Deal, and secondary legislation will set out how this affects landlords' obligations under any PRS regulations. I hope that the noble Lord will be happy to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Grantchester
I am of course grateful for the questions on this matter, especially from the noble Lord, Lord Teverson. Perhaps later we will sit down and put our heads together. It could benefit all of us to read today's proceedings twice or three times to understand the different angles from which everyone has approached this. What I was referring to here, and perhaps did not explain clearly, is a situation where one tenant in a block of flats is holding out and the landlord does not go ahead because he does not have the full agreement of that tenant. I remember the point of the noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith, who asked: if there is no consent, where are we? The point of the amendment was to get over that hurdle and enable a local authority to step in if a landlord cannot carry on because one tenant refuses to make the improvements. However, at this time of the evening, and in view of all the debate that we have had, I suggest that we will all benefit from sitting down and thinking through where we are on the Bill. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Northover
My Lords, this may be a convenient moment for the Committee to adjourn until Wednesday at 3.45 pm.
