Energy Bill [HL]

Lord Grantchester Excerpts

Monday 24th January 2011 Grand Committee

[Baroness Parminter]

I support my noble friend Lady Maddock in her amendments, which seek to extend the reach of the Bill to those who live under short-term residential leases. While the Bill will ensure that the majority of those in the private rented sector will benefit from the Green Deal, about 1.5 million properties with long residential leases are outside the scope of this Bill. Many of those leases require the permission of the landlords for home energy improvements. In some cases, there may be an absolute prohibition on such improvements. I am aware of a leaseholder who is looking to make a home energy improvement of fitting a new gas boiler, but because that requires an external flue he is unable to get his landlord’s consent.

I accept that there are issues around long residential leases. I am also very much aware—and I am grateful—that the department is aware of those issues, but I hope that the department might use the period of the proposed review of the private rented sector to look closely at the issue of long residential leases and at how we might extend the Green Deal to the 1.5 million people who at present have long residential leases and are currently excluded from the benefits of the Green Deal.

[Lord Grantchester]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Maddock, for bringing forward her amendments. I echo her opening words on the private rented sector, as we on this side of the House have also received considerable approaches from organisations that want us to look diligently at that sector. We take encouragement that the Government are now looking at those issues. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Maddock, we think that several such properties could be adequately improved at no great cost. We have also received a lot of submissions asking that we look carefully at this issue.

We also thank the noble Baroness for bringing the attention of the Committee to the issues around the Housing Act. On this side, we initially thought that all eventualities would be covered, so we thank her for drawing our attention to that. Along with the noble Baroness, we would wish, in so far as is possible, for all housing, including rural housing, to be brought within the ambit of the Bill. Will the Minister confirm that other types of housing, including in the mining industry, will be covered under the provisions?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Lord Marland)]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Maddock, for moving Amendment 20E. She comes with a great wealth of knowledge of this sector, which is always much appreciated. In particular, her opening remarks welcomed some of the action that we are taking in this sector.

On the issue raised by my noble friend Lady Parminter, I should like to pick up the issue of the review at a later amendment.

I am glad to see that the Minister, my colleague Mr Gregory Barker, who will be taking this matter through the other place, has come to see how it is done properly here in the Upper Chamber. He will learn a lot from being here.

Amendments 20E to 20K all seek to amend Clause 35 by expanding the range of tenancy types and dwellings covered by the provisions in the Bill relating to the domestic private rented sector. Clause 35 lays the foundations for the provisions in the private rented sector by clearly defining what we mean by “domestic private rented property” and “non-domestic private rented property” in England and Wales for the purposes of this Bill. The domestic private rented sector is currently defined by the two most common types of tenancy arrangements in the sector: assured tenancies and regulated tenancies. We want to capture the largest range of private rented sector properties; we do not want to unintentionally exclude properties. I will now consider them in turn.

Amendments 20G and 20J would apply to accommodation provided for agricultural workers under either an assured agricultural occupancy, as defined in the Housing Act 1988, or a protected occupancy, as defined by the Rent (Agriculture) Act 1976. Those will be included in the definition; they do not need to be referred to specifically. I hope that that deals with the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Maddock.

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Moved by

[Lord Grantchester]

20AAA: Clause 39, page 25, line 16, at end insert—
“( ) Provision falling within subsection (1) may also include the power to carry out improvement works in default of the landlord, recovering all reasonable costs necessary for undertaking the work.”

[Lord Grantchester]

I apologise for the delay; the groupings are a little confusing. I am reminded during these debates of the words of the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, who said that we were entering a very complex area. One comes to the Grand Committee thinking that one understands everything, but as the debate moves forward one is often prompted to think that we are questioning at cross-purposes. On other occasions, one thinks that one knows all about it when a question is suddenly asked that makes one think, “Have I really understood it?”. In proposing Amendment 20AAA, I wonder whether I have really understood it because I am confused as to why this amendment is not also grouped with Amendment 20AA, but there are quite a few areas in which that amendment could have had an effect. The amendment is rather simple, but it touches on three serious areas which we have already debated and which I shall pick up on as I go through my remarks.

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[Baroness Noakes]

My Lords, I certainly do not want to delay the Committee beyond its natural span, but perhaps I could just ask the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, how the possibility of local authorities carrying out improvement works and charging for them fits with the scheme of this Bill, which contains a requirement to carry out the relevant efficiency improvements financed either by the Green Deal or by the energy company obligation. I do not understand how another party in the form of the local authority can do something that should be dealt with by either the Green Deal or by the energy company obligation. It seems unfair at the very least, if we are talking about a group of tenants where one is holding out, for the landlord to be stuck with the cost for a whole building or block in circumstances where, for the rest, there would be a Green Deal. I do not understand how this amendment fits with the scheme, which is that the relevant energy efficiency improvements are Green Deal or energy company obligation-funded. They are not funded in any other way.

[Lord Grantchester]

I thank the noble Baroness for seeking that extra clarification. In this clause we are assuming that in a situation where a tenant is holding out against the wishes of every other tenant in a block, he would be required to undertake the improvements as part of the Green Deal. The costs arising would not land on the local authority. The tenant that was proving to be the roadblock would be entered under the Green Deal and would make payments under that deal. I think that this provision is set out in Clause 37.

[Lord Teverson]

My Lords, I admit that I do not understand this amendment. I do not understand what it does. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, for his explanation, but I do not see how it relates to multiple tenancies. I apologise and will leave it at that.

[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, I am very grateful to noble Lords for their amendments to Clause 39. Amendment 20AAA would give local authorities the power to carry out improvement works if the landlord defaults, and to recover all reasonable costs for undertaking work. We are not convinced that it is appropriate to grant such powers. Local authorities already have the power under the Housing Act 2004 to carry out works and recover costs in cases where there is an immediate and serious threat to health and safety. We are not convinced that any further power is appropriate or proportionate.

I will address the point about a tenant dissenting. Sitting tenants will not be forced to take on a Green Deal, and secondary legislation will set out how this affects landlords' obligations under any PRS regulations. I hope that the noble Lord will be happy to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord Grantchester]

I am of course grateful for the questions on this matter, especially from the noble Lord, Lord Teverson. Perhaps later we will sit down and put our heads together. It could benefit all of us to read today's proceedings twice or three times to understand the different angles from which everyone has approached this. What I was referring to here, and perhaps did not explain clearly, is a situation where one tenant in a block of flats is holding out and the landlord does not go ahead because he does not have the full agreement of that tenant. I remember the point of the noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith, who asked: if there is no consent, where are we? The point of the amendment was to get over that hurdle and enable a local authority to step in if a landlord cannot carry on because one tenant refuses to make the improvements. However, at this time of the evening, and in view of all the debate that we have had, I suggest that we will all benefit from sitting down and thinking through where we are on the Bill. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 20AAA withdrawn.