Workers’ Rights

Lord Fox Excerpts

Thursday 23rd November 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I rejoice that the electronic ballot results have produced the leader of my own party. I recommend that trade unions look at ways to modernise—not just the way they ballot but the way they look at the economy. Ending the concept of labour flexibility in this country would be devastating, particularly to the sorts of investment I work on daily, including the celebration of over £20 billion of new capital committed to this country two days ago by a number of Korean companies. They are coming here because of our economic growth prospects and the flexibility of our labour markets, among other things. Trade unionists and all my colleagues opposite should remember that.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister is no stranger to hyperbole, but his description of the CPTPP issues around intellectual property contains several misapprehensions. Could he undertake to read, carefully, the debate in Hansard that accompanied that Bill’s Second Reading? There are serious concerns from the creative industries about the clauses on intellectual property.

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I will read Hansard on that debate. I seem to remember being there myself; I delegated the opening to one of our newest Members. We promised, during that debate, to have a full consultation on how artists’ rights are treated. It is extremely important that we get the balance right. Ultimately, it is about fairness and equity, and we stand four-square behind that, as I am sure the noble Lord will agree is right.

British Steel

Lord Fox Excerpts

Wednesday 8th November 2023 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, obviously the loss of any jobs, particularly in a sector as important as steel, is to be deplored. However, there are commercial necessities that we are all fully aware of. The activity that the Government took in Port Talbot shows very clearly the commitment that we have to supporting the transition from historic steel-making to something more modern. As far as the production of virgin steel is concerned, the noble Lord is absolutely right that it will be affected by the closure of the smelting plants, but we will still be able to import limited amounts of iron ore pellets, which can be put towards the other steel that we have already within this country to produce what is required.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, I welcome the Opposition spokesperson back to his Front Bench and thank the Minister for his answer. However, I do not think that he is grasping the point. Steel is vital to the economy, as the Answer said, but it is also vital to our strategic interest. At a time when we are talking about the need for secure supply chains, does the Minister recognise that this weakens the supply chain for our defence, aerospace and automotive industries?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

I completely understand the position of the noble Lord. During this transition period there is bound to be some effect. However, once the new systems are in place, there should be no change.

Post Office Compensation

Lord Fox Excerpts

Tuesday 19th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I thank the noble Earl for attending today to discuss yesterday’s important Statement in the other place concerning compensation for victims of the Post Office’s Horizon IT system failings.

What took place after the installation of Horizon accounting software started in the late 1990s has been referred to as one of the greatest scandals of modern times. The installation of the accounting software led to recorded shortfalls in cash at many branches. The truth is that, instead of questioning whether the software was working accurately, the Post Office instead believed that the shortfalls were caused by postmasters themselves, leading to dismissals, recovery of losses from the individuals concerned and, of course, in some cases criminal prosecutions.

The lives of decent, honest postmasters were ripped apart, with some cases resulting in prison sentences but, for all, a long and difficult wait for years to get justice. The consequences for some of those victims are just too awful to contemplate. The wait for resolution of compensation claims has only added to the intolerable burden so many have had to face.

We can all be grateful for the work done by Ministers and civil servants to make progress on this important matter, and I acknowledge the commitment and dedication of Members in both Houses continuing to work with victims through the Justice for Subpostmasters Alliance to sort this mess out.

We agree that there is logic in the proposals for compensation outlined in the Statement and welcome the clarification given in yesterday’s Statement by the Minister, Kevin Hollinrake. He acknowledged that 86 convictions have been overturned and that over £21 million has been paid out in compensation. However, due to the complexity of some claims, especially for personal damages, progress on full and final settlements has been slow. The proposal outlined is to offer a fixed sum of £600,00 for those who received an overturned conviction. Can the noble Earl tell us what specific methodology was used to arrive at this figure? Will he commit to publishing it for the sake of transparency?

I also seek clarification on a few factors. First, how many people does the noble Earl anticipate will take up this offer? What assurances can he give that the compensation being offered to those 86 individuals whose convictions have been overturned will be made up to a sufficient level? What can he say in response to the point that, if people go through the full scheme, the compensation will be much higher? I would be grateful if he addressed what he thinks the balance is between the figure of £600,000 and what others might expect to get. Importantly, what is the estimated timescale for compensation completion for those he considers eligible and not yet fully compensated? Finally, can the noble Earl explain why it has taken so long for evidence from key stakeholders—the Post Office, the Government and Fujitsu—to be presented to the public inquiry?

The Post Office is a national institution, but its reputation has been severely damaged by this scandal. I finally ask: what steps are being taken to ensure that this can never happen again?

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, I too thank the noble Earl for repeating this Statement. I recognise the good faith that the Under-Secretary of State in the Commons and the noble Earl have in trying to move this forward. As the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, said, this scandal is deeply shameful—one of the most deeply shameful incidents in public life, certainly in our lifetimes. It has involved lying, cover-up and deceit on an industrial scale and, to date, only the innocent have been punished.

Nevertheless, as I said, this announcement is a sincere attempt to inject some forward movement. As media reports have indicated, and as the noble Baroness set out, since the announcement, some of the victims will be freed from the need for an extensive claims assessment process through this offer. Others, some of the most egregiously harmed by this scandal, will rightly decline in anticipation of more appropriate compensation via a full assessment and, clearly, the Government have recognised this right, which is the right thing to do.

I sense and understand the Government’s frustration that only 86 out of an estimated 600 people who were damned by Horizon evidence have so far come through the process. Perhaps this new announcement will attract some people out, but I ask the Minister: what is plan B and what else are the Government going to do to try to inject further forward motion in this awful scandal? The process is grindingly slow and presents imposing challenges to people who have already been burned by their contact with the courts and the authorities. These are people who have been psychologically harmed by the system and now have to re-enter it to get recompense. Some element of psychological understanding has to go into coaxing these people to cross that line.

In the Commons, my honourable friend the Member for Tiverton and Honiton asked a very pertinent question regarding subpostmasters who were dismissed but not prosecuted. In his thoughtful answer, Kevin Hollinrake MP highlighted the complexity and difficulty of processing claims. This is the nub of the problem and why things are grindingly slow. It is complex and difficult, and things are taking so long. Already, people have died and more will die before they find justice. I understand that this announcement is driven by a desire to move things forward, but can the Minister please undertake to carry back to his department your Lordships’ frustration and plea for greater urgency and more energy to make this move forward?

I have a question, which perhaps the Minister can explain now or write to us. Do the victims in this process, which is complex, have to prove themselves innocent, or is the assessment the other way around? It seems to me much harder to prove innocence than to refute guilt. Perhaps one way of moving this forward is to change the bar that people have to clear in the assessment process, and make it clear to them that it has been lowered and made easier. Perhaps we are applying too rigorous a standard for people who were so unrigorously prosecuted in the first place.

The elephants in the room in this inquiry are the roles played by the Post Office and Fujitsu, as the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, said. Here, I think the Government have been found wanting. The Government moved on the issue of senior employee bonuses, for which they deserve some praise, but, seemingly unchastened by this overall story, the Post Office is still taking an obfuscatory stance with respect to providing evidence to the inquiry and moving things forward, and it continues to be allowed to do so. Secondly, can the Minister confirm that Fujitsu remains commercially untouched by this and continues to bid and win government contracts—and can he tell us why?

This is a welcome announcement, but it is one step and there is a long way to go, so please can the Minister, who I know is working with us in good faith, work with his colleagues to find new ways to speed it up and find resolution and at least some end to this sorry story?

[The Minister of State, Department for Business and Trade (The Earl of Minto) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank both noble Lords for their speeches, which were both very powerful and raised some extremely salient points on what I think everybody must agree is one of the most atrocious commercial situations that this country has experienced. Both the noble Baroness and the noble Lord are quite right: this is an extremely complicated situation and of course it goes back over a very long time now. Memories are fading and some of the financial data, which is critical to sorting out some of the issues, is not as fresh as it was and, of course, we have the terrible situation of individuals being not only prosecuted but jailed—and unfortunately some have even taken their own life, which is just beyond belief.

This is one of the very worst incidents in commercial history. When it comes to trying to support the victims wherever one possibly can, the Government are increasingly taking steps to not only get an appropriate amount of compensation into their hands but to encourage people to come forward, which seems to be one of the hardest things to do. For one reason or another, people who have been so badly affected by this situation are unwilling to come forward. The noble Lord, Lord Fox, made the extremely interesting point that it could be that proof of innocence is harder than proof of guilt, which of course is completely the wrong way round. I will certainly ask what the Government can do in relation to that, but this is an increasingly difficult situation to get to the bottom of.

Having said that, the offer of £600,000, free of any tax and with legal support if so required, for the individuals involved where their conviction has been overturned is a genuine attempt to make things much simpler and easier for those who find the whole process of going through the established claims procedure too challenging. This is an offer that is not conditional upon anything. My honourable friend Minister Hollinrake said “no ifs, no buts”—it is £600,000 tax free, and of course it is a full and final settlement. The clarity of it is absolutely simple. I hope that will appeal to certain people who may want to bring financial closure where possible. There is no doubt that it will not appeal to everybody. I am sure we have all read in the press this morning a number of stories of people who are talking about numbers which are considerably higher than this. It is right and proper that they should continue to press their case through the compensation channels that they have.

I will address some of the issues raised. I am afraid I cannot give a clear answer to every single one of them; some of them are extremely subjective and probably need a little more thought. I will certainly write where I have not addressed the issue.

The question of personal damages is a tricky one. The Government have already made interim payments of £21 million to 86 postmasters who have had their convictions overturned.

On how the £600,000 figure was reached, I am not absolutely clear. It is a huge step forward from what was available previously, but I will follow that up. From the point of view of the pecuniary amount, it is a significant amount of money. The offer that anybody who has already settled and who got less than £600,000 through the existing channels will be made good up to that figure is an honourable way of going about it. It is extremely important—I quite agree.

As to how many people will take it up, that again is a very difficult question to answer. As I am sure the noble Baroness knows, there are a number of these unfortunate individuals who have already employed lawyers and who are already into the process. I guess they have to be confident that the legal advice they receive will either allow them to pursue what they have started or take this offer. I am not certain that it is the Government’s role to get involved in that; I do not think that is the case. As far as the total amount goes, if everybody were to take it up, obviously that would be £600,000 per claimant, but my suspicion is that it will end up being a bit more than that.

As for the timescale, this offer is to make it simple and fast, for all sorts of reasons. As the noble Baroness said, this has been going on for an unacceptably long time. The attempt to make it transparent and simple is a genuine attempt to bring closure for as many people as possible.

The point about the Post Office, the Government and Fujitsu is very well made, and I will address that later, if I may.

Finally, on the point about it never, ever happening again, I do not think anybody would put their hand on their heart and say that something like this could never happen again, but one of the collateral benefits of a situation such as this is that it raises awareness. One has to go back a long time, but, as noble Lords may know, I was a retailer in my commercial life and the level of faith that one put in electronic point-of-sale equipment and the systems behind those front-facing things was, in the early days, at times ill-founded. One would think now that there are enough checks and balances within any form of automated stock control and management system that anything that does not look right would be flagged up—that is certainly my experience. I do not think that something as specific as what we have had to face through the Horizon scandal is likely nowadays with the advances in technology.

I will refer quickly to the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Fox. I am entirely with the noble Lord; this is a deeply shameful situation. I have stood here before and talked about the way that the Post Office runs itself; I do not think anybody can be in any doubt as to what I think some of its commercial failings have been. We have to look only at the extraordinary situation around the bonus payment, which has now been fully repaid; the chief executive has paid back more than he had to—slightly too little, too late, in my view, but at least it is an acceptance of failure. The Government are acutely aware of those issues.

As for damages through the courts, that is really a question for the courts. As I understand it, the legal advice that you get when you make a claim through the court—I referred to this earlier—is such that it is always an estimate. I imagine that, for some, it is absolutely obvious that they will continue to go through the courts, whereas for others that is not the case. The fact that the Government will make up the difference is certainly an honourable way to address that.

The question of those dismissed but not prosecuted is something that we need to address. I am again surprised, as I imagine are a lot of people, by the amount of people who have not applied and put their names forward. However, on the group litigation order, as of 15 September, 461 registration forms had been received and 32 full claims. Seven offers had been made and accepted. It shows that all these different opportunities are starting to gain some traction. It would be nice if we could get through them as quickly as possible.

I think that is probably it, apart from the elephants in the room—Fujitsu and the Post Office. The Government are keen to get this out the way and settled, before we see where we stand with Fujitsu. It is a core participant in the inquiry. It must now know what went wrong; well, it certainly did before we knew. Once the independent inquiry is complete, I am sure there will be a robust conversation with Fujitsu and, no doubt, its insurers.

I might finish on that. This has been a horrifying experience for a large number of people—well over 2,500—and the Government continue to do what we can.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

I want to pursue that point. The noble Earl said that people have been contacted. How have they been contacted? Is it a letter? Is it a phone call? Have you knocked on the door? Have you gone back again? We need to know what that contact is, because if people are not coming forward from that contact, then it has failed. People need to know that we accept that a great injustice has been done to them and we want to sort it out. The noble Earl may not be able to answer the point now, so will he write to me and to other noble Lords in the House to say what the method of contact is and what they are going to do when they have not got a response?

[Lord Fox (LD)]

Before the Minister answers that, it is important to bring home and build on the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner. A strategy to communicate with certain communities is different from a strategy to communicate with the mainstream community. It involves community leaders, different media and different things. Do the Government have a proper media communication strategy of the sort that was just mentioned that involves using community leaders as intermediaries for those people to give them the confidence to step forward?

I talked about the Post Office being obfuscatory. Among the things it was obfuscatory about were appalling racial slurs that were used to characterise those people. At the heart of this is a racial element, and we should not forget that. Many of the people who were punished may well have been singled out because of their classification within that process. I think the Government owe it to them to double down on this communication.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

I entirely agree. The Government really do owe it to them to double down on it and I will find out exactly what the situation is. I know that telephone calls, letters, victim meetings and all sorts of things are going on, and it is extremely important that we get to the bottom of it. I will write to noble Lords with the details and let them know exactly how we are proceeding.

Tata Steel: Port Talbot

Lord Fox Excerpts

Tuesday 19th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

Noble Lords will understand that there is deep concern about the loss of as many as 3,000 jobs in south Wales. It is important to remember that, for many communities, this is not happening for the first time. The areas of the country where steel making is still a significant industry are scarred by decisions made in the 1980s in the name of progress by Conservative politicians without any thought to the economic devastation or the need for alternative investment, and no understanding of the damage to community pride, sense of place and even long-term health of the people affected. Doing deals over the heads of local people and then presenting as a success an outcome that costs £0.5 billion of taxpayers’ money and 3,000 jobs, leaving us with only one blast furnace site in the UK and diminished capacity to make virgin steel, shows how arrogant, out of touch, lacking in strategy and blasé this Government have become.

There are some serious questions that the Government have so far failed to answer. First, why was this deal done behind the backs of the workforce and their representatives? Secondly, the electric arc furnace uses scrap steel, but this will not work for Trostre and Llanwern, so where will that steel come from in future? Will it come from India or Turkey? Thirdly, when will a grid connection for the arc furnace be provided? Fourthly, what specifically is the intention for the site? Fifthly, what is going to be done to support the workforce?

Green steel is something that we all support, including workers and trades unions, so the Government need to do much better in planning for transition because, if this mass job loss model becomes the norm, workforce and wider public support will vanish. Transition requires trust, detail, openness and the involvement of all interested parties, and the Government have failed Port Talbot. The most important question that the Government need to answer is simply this: do they accept that the ability to make virgin steel for our national security is strategically important and must be sustained? Will they guarantee that the UK will retain its ability to make virgin steel in future?

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for allowing us to debate this Statement. The noble Baroness from His Majesty’s loyal Opposition made some important points, and I associate myself with her remarks. I have some additional questions.

The agreement to fund the installation of new arc furnaces for steel making will have a positive effect on emissions, and that is good news. However, as the noble Baroness said, the package could mean as many as 3,000 job losses in the UK, and in one area of the UK. That is a terrible outcome.

Tata is reported as warning that there would be a

“transition period including potential deep restructuring”

at the plant. I am not sure that I understand what that means. Can the Minister please translate it for your Lordships’ House in real terms and real lives? Those jobs are being shed. What plans do the Government have to support those people and that local economy when the jobs go? What are the plans for retraining, for example? What are the realistic expectations for a concentration of new and different jobs in that area?

As we also heard, the electric arc furnaces deliver different grades and qualities of steel compared to what we get from a blast furnace site. What is the Government’s assessment as to how the new capacity in this country as a result of that will affect the profile of steel we need to import? To add to the point that the noble Baroness made, what is the assessment on resilience in this country as a result of this change?

The new coal mine in Whitehaven that was last year partially waved through by Michael Gove is also a factor here. West Cumbria Mining said that the coking coal that it would produce would be used for steel making in the UK and Europe. As the Minister knows, electric arcs do not use coke. Yesterday’s announcement removes at a stroke a large proportion of the domestic market for that mine, meaning that the mine will be almost solely for export only, which even further removes the legitimacy of that venture.

The Statement mentions that the British industry supercharger, aimed at assisting electricity prices and helping to make them competitive for energy-intensive industries, will be applied here. His Majesty’s Government responded to the consultation on this only on 5 September, so I suspect that this is its first outing. I really do not understand what it is, but it is cited in reports. Can the Minister please write to us outlining what it is and what it means? I saw the consultation on the British industry supercharger and the response to it, and it is cited as being applied here. How is it applied? What are the terms of that application and what does it mean in energy terms for this business? What other businesses are now in line to benefit from it—not least Scunthorpe, where the Chinese owners cited energy costs as the reason for their shutting down of its coking ovens?

I have a couple of other points. Tata expects to release land at Port Talbot for transfer or sale following the closure of the blast furnaces. This land presumably hosted high industrial activity for decades, so who will be responsible for the not inconsiderable costs of decontaminating and remediating this land before it becomes useful and valuable for anything else? Who will be stumping up these costs?

In conclusion, we have seen a number of government interventions, including the also Tata-owned Jaguar Land Rover, Nissan, BMW and perhaps, going forward, British Steel. It has been said by some that these are foreign investors who are masters at extracting subsidies. We understand that there is an international subsidy competition going on here, but how does the Minister respond to that charge? The Chancellor has said that he was not prepared to go toe to toe with the US and EU in the subsidy bidding war, but this looks like the Government reacting to things when they settle in their in-tray. A patchwork of deals is a poor substitute for a coherent industrial strategy. Where is His Majesty’s Government’s plan? What are the Government seeking to cause to happen, or should we expect further examples of sticking plaster activity?

[Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)]

My Lords—

[The Minister of State, Department for Business and Trade (Lord Johnson of Lainston) (Con)]

Apologies, my Lord. I think I have the opportunity now to respond to the two opening speeches and then I will answer questions one at a time, if I have the order correct.

I greatly appreciate the debate we have had so far over what I believe is a pretty sensational recovery of an extremely difficult situation. Noble Lords will be aware that these conversations around Port Talbot have been going on for many years—some say even more than a decade. Certainly, from my own experience in the private sector, I regarded the situation with a great degree of pessimism, to be frank, and I am surprised that the tone of the debate is not more positive. That does not negate the realities of saving the situation and the transformation that will result in the locality.

I will go through the points raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman. I am happy to answer them one by one because we have a strong and coherent policy response to each of the very important points raised. This is a very serious issue. We are not playing politics here; we are dealing with people’s lives and the important commitment of, I believe, all of us in this House to maintain steel production in Port Talbot and to guarantee a future for those communities. What we have ended up with is a powerful opportunity for this country to reshape its industrial base in terms of producing steel and reducing emissions. Noble Lords will be aware of the astonishing level of emissions that Port Talbot alone produces; I think it is 1% of our entire national output. If we are serious—and I think, collectively, we are—about reducing carbon emissions, to reduce one site that produces 1% of the emissions by 80%, which is what this outcome will produce, is significant for the collective challenge we are presented with.

I also find, if I may say so to noble Lords in this House and to the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, and the noble Lord, Lord Fox, that there is an opportunity to shift. This is a business case—so it is subjective and perfectly reasonable to raise it—for virgin steel, whereby we import the ore, at great cost to emissions and national resilience, and recycle the nine or 10 million-plus tonnes of scrap. This presents an opportunity to us, to Port Talbot, to the people of Wales and to the whole country to realign our steelmaking industry—to rightly make the most of this scrap steel, which otherwise is being exported to Turkey or the US to be recycled. We were losing out on an enormous opportunity to be part of the circular economy.

Let us look at the prima facie business case for what the Government have done, to work in partnership with Tata. I put on record my personal thanks to the leadership of Tata for the extraordinarily good tone of the negotiations that I know it engaged in. From my first meeting with the chairman of Tata a year ago—although I was not involved in these specific negotiations —there was a very clear signal that Tata felt it was important that it reflected its family ownership in terms of commitment to the community of Port Talbot and the United Kingdom. I hope all noble Lords will join me in expressing thanks for the intense amount of good will demonstrated.

The Government have been extremely brave and forward-footed in bringing forward a proposal that will enable us to transform this site, reduce our emissions and, through the transformation to the Celtic freeport projects and the work we shall do—the noble Lord, Lord Fox, rightly raised this—in releasing land that is currently either potentially contaminated or has risk around it, create up to 16,000 new jobs. The noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, is right to call back some of the policy decisions taken in the 1980s, when there probably was not enough sensitivity paid to the transformation process, which affects people but ultimately makes us safer. That is why the Government have been extremely aware of and sensitive to this crucial point that affects people’s lives. Working with Tata—again, a private enterprise—we have created, or are in the process of establishing, a £100 million fund specifically to look after the communities and the people affected. I am aware that specific task forces are being set up to ensure that the process can be properly handled.

There is a reasonable case to be made by noble Lords, although I do necessarily agree with it, about the process by which this announcement was made, but I am sure all noble Lords who have been involved in sensitive and complex commercial negotiations will be aware that the specific terms cannot be entirely public. It was quite right that we got to a good decision, rather than one jeopardised by too much general community discussion. However, as the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, will know well, as will her colleagues on the Front Bench, these discussions have been going on for a very long time. Indeed, the announcement of electric arc furnaces at Port Talbot really should have brought great relief to many people, because the worry in the air was that a far more jeopardous decision would be made.

This gives us an enormous opportunity to restructure our industry and reduce our emissions, which is a core commitment of all sides of this House and this Government. It gives us an opportunity to reinvent a huge site with great potential, creating tens of thousands of jobs. I have tried to take a much more positive view of what is a wonderful partnership between the Government, private enterprise and the community that will safeguard thousands of jobs, when the risk of losing those jobs was so significant.

I am aware that both the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, and the noble Lord, Lord Fox, asked me specific questions, which I am sure other noble Lords would like answers to. If the noble Baroness will allow me, I will just cover those points I did not cover in my main speech. There is an issue over virgin steel. The noble Lord, Lord Fox, suggested that we guarantee always to have a capacity for virgin steel.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

I did not say that; I just asked what the assessment was.

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I apologise. The noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, asked whether we would guarantee to make virgin steel strategically important. It is not my place at this Dispatch Box to make such industrial guarantees. However—again, I am happy to take advice from experts—the arc furnaces being installed at Port Talbot are far more sophisticated, I am told, than current arc furnaces in scale, sophistication and the quality of the steel they can produce. They will produce, even on the current plans, steel very close to the quality that we require for all our steel needs.

Think of the automotive sector. Port Talbot provides half of all sheet metal for the automotive sector in the UK. That can still be provided. Think of railway track. That, I am told, can still be provided using these processes. We will be importing the necessary steel to produce cans and other specific steel that requires virgin steel, but we believe that over time—this is where the technical debate comes into play—we can produce the same quality of steel that is hoped for to enable us to ensure that we have resilience in that area.

I was asked about the supply of green energy. I assume that linked to that is a question about connectivity and pace of change. We are in discussions with National Grid, Tata and other agencies to ensure that can be done as soon as practically possible. The process that has led up to this very celebratory announcement has been going on for some time and there has been a great deal of planning. I do not have a specific date but the assumption is that everything will go on track in terms of the supply of green energy, grid connectivity, the decommissioning of the blast furnaces and the introduction of the electric arc furnaces.

I believe there was a question about support for the workforce, which I hope I have covered. In his comments the noble Lord, Lord Fox, raised the situation of the Whitehaven mine. There was never an indication by Tata that it was going to use the coking product from that mine, so I cannot answer further than to say that that was never in the expected plan, whatever the outcome was. I am happy to look further into the export possibilities of the mine, but I do not think that is necessarily relevant today.

The British industry supercharger is a follow-on policy to support energy-intensive industries and make sure that they can compete. I am happy to write to the noble Lord on the specific number of companies that qualify. It is not a huge number; it is quite a specific number of heavy energy users that we are supporting to make sure that they can compete on an international scale. I think all noble Lords would agree that it is very important that we continue to provide that type of support.

I have two final points. I have covered the decontamination point briefly; one of the very important elements of the decision-making around this process was why we could not simply sell the site to a third party. I asked that question myself. The reality is that there are so many complexities around the site, including decontamination and the liabilities that the Government would have had to undertake, that this is genuinely the most effective way to retain as efficient a support level from the Government as possible—not to oversubsidise or oversupport—while at the same time ensuring that the company is viable and can be successful. I mean this in a heartfelt and sincere way. We can deal with the significant issues that those sites present, and at the same time it will have the knock-on effect of using the land for the amazing regenerative opportunities of the Celtic port plan.

On my last point, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Fox, for raising some of the great successes over the last few months. I have been proud to be part of the department that has delivered these successes, such as the announcement a few months ago of the Tata gigafactory, one of the largest buildings ever to be built in the history of this country, maybe even the largest, and one of the biggest investments ever in the car industry; the announcement that Stellantis are going to build Fiats, Peugeots and Citroëns in Ellesmere Port after significant consideration of whether or not it wanted to base their production facilities in the UK; and the announcement last week that BMW is going to—again, after significant consideration—build its electric Minis in this country. Further announcements from companies such as Nissan on its capacity to build cars will ensure that this country has a strong industrial base.

I am very proud of what we have managed to achieve. They are true public/private partnerships. We are asked whether we have a strategy. The strategy is: we want a strong industrial base in this country and, if I may say so, we are delivering it.

Employers: Fire and Rehire Tactics

Lord Fox Excerpts

Thursday 14th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

Throughout the course of this Parliament, commitments have been made around the manifesto commitments on employment given by the party on this side of the House. Over the last Parliament, six Private Members’ Bills have been brought through to enhance and protect workers’ rights. As I said, we are trying to strike the balance between workers’ protection and employers’ flexibility.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, in answer to my noble friend’s question about P&O Ferries, the Minister rightly characterised its behaviour as an illegal act. However, P&O Ferries is now economically active and out there, doing what it always did. Will the Minister undertake to do an analysis of the turnover and profit of P&O Ferries now versus the sanctions it received? If those sanctions prove to have been insufficient, as I believe they will, will the Minister undertake to increase them to prevent a repeat of that disgraceful activity?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

My understanding is that the P&O case is still under consideration with the insolvency authorities, so I cannot comment further on it. Further consultation is going on, taking account of this case and specifically the difference between dismissal and redundancy. That will also be in the code of practice. P&O has received censure. It continues to operate within the laws of the United Kingdom and should be allowed to continue to do so.

Small and Medium-sized Enterprises: Interest Rates

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Wednesday 13th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

I entirely agree with my noble friend about the very good news about the economy. The EIS and SEIS schemes, along with VCT, have been enormously popular and successful, with over £40 billion being invested since their inception in 1994. We are assured by the Chancellor that the Government are committed to their renewal. We absolutely recognise the need for investors and companies, so that investment continues without interruption going forward. My noble friend will understand that I cannot give exact timings today, but the details will be provided by His Majesty’s Treasury ahead of the renewal date. On the European clauses, I ask your Lordships to understand that the Chancellor will have in mind that any renewal is for UK business only and no longer for the wider European audience.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, on 17 July the Financial Times reported that the Prime Minister was convening a new business advisory council, bringing together senior bosses to shape government policy. The paper lists

“AstraZeneca, NatWest, BAE Systems, SSE, Google DeepMind, J Sainsbury, Vodafone, GSK, Aviva, Shell, Sage, Taylor Wimpey, Diageo and Barclays”.

That does not leave much room for the SMEs to get their message across, but it does typify the big business approach taken by this Government. Will the Minister confirm who is on this council, whether it has met yet, and how he expects small and medium-sized businesses to be able to catch the Prime Minister’s ear in such company?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

The noble Lord makes a very good point. Those are some of the largest international companies in the world, and I am sure that they will provide the Prime Minister with some extremely helpful advice. Having said that, as we all know, in this country the vast majority of businesses are small and medium-sized enterprises. In my role, I communicate with them almost constantly, both individuals and representative bodies. The value they have to add to these sorts of fora should not be underestimated. They are an extremely valuable and successful part of our economy.

Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill

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Consideration of Commons amendments
Monday 11th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Garnier (Con)]

My Lords, I had the privilege of being a member of the noble Lord’s committee. I agreed with what he had to say then, and I agree with what he has just said now.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, in his opening dispatch the Minister praised those involved for the way in which the Bill has been modified and changed. The noble Lord, Lord Agnew, needs to take a lot of credit for how that modification has gone ahead, and the work that he has done and will have to continue to do in his role overseeing the Government’s response to this. I will not repeat anything that has already been said, other than to say that I agree.

The reason we are concerned about this issue is that the Government will rightfully say that they know who the names are in these trusts, but the issue we are talking about is the publication. It has been the role of civil society and journalists to uncover problems, and that has been very important in issues around this. If the Government can demonstrate that their commitment to enforcement, getting behind these trusts and exposing people who are using them to avoid issues is fully funded and fully backed by them, our relying on civil society—which we have had to do to date—would be less of an issue. That is why we support the quest by the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, on this, and will support him as he seeks to make sure that further steps are appropriate and that enforcement is at the heart of what we seek to achieve here.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

My Lords, I start by thanking the Minister for the broader tidying up of the amendments in this group and by reflecting on the time, over several months, that we have been discussing these important issues. We must keep our eye on the scale of the issues that we are dealing with; they are immense, and they cost this country billions of pounds. We have a great deal to do to repair the UK’s reputation in the world, and I hope that we involved in this debate will all have our eyes on that prize.

I am pleased to say that we have seen some positive changes achieved through the passage of this Bill and a genuine appetite for change, as we experienced with our conversation with Companies House. We are going through an immense cultural change in the management of these affairs. As we know, it is the biggest shake-up for 170 years. I also pay tribute to everyone in the Chamber, and those who are not here today, for their diligence in the work that they have done, and to my colleagues in the other place, Dame Margaret Hodge and Seema Malhotra in particular. Months and months of work have gone into getting us to this place.

I am very grateful for the explanation that the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, gave. There is real recognition that there will be an ongoing need to scrutinise. I think we all accept the commitments in good faith, but we need to make it clear to Ministers and their officials that the interest is very live and that there will be close scrutiny as these matters roll up. Compromise has been reached on this—I accept that that is the reason we will not be taking the amendment to a vote—but we add our support to the ongoing scrutiny that will need to take place.

I also pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, for his persistence in this and his unique position having had experience in government, which has informed the approach he has taken and the concern that I think many would agree he has rightly raised. We are where we are—he has decided to accept the reassurances—but we also have an insight into those elephant traps that he referred to. I also reference the comments of my noble friend Lord Eatwell on the explicit need for vigilance.

With those comments, and thanking everyone for the spirit of compromise, I reassure everyone that we will look closely at this, and we very much hope that the measures being brought in today will be sufficient. We will look to those delegated powers that have been built in to make sure that, if change is necessary, it will indeed be made.

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[Lord Hope of Craighead (CB)]

My Lords, I am greatly assisted by the correction made by the noble Lord, Lord Faulks; I had great difficulty in understanding the amendment on first reading. Now that he has corrected it, I would like to say from the point of view of a Scots lawyer that there is nothing startling in the proposition that is made. We in Scotland are quite used to the normal routine that law enforcement agencies are not liable in costs for the proceedings that have been taken, probably for the reasons that the noble Lord has clearly expressed.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, we have benefited from two extremely detailed and learned speeches proposing Motions E1 and H1. On Motion E1, I am exercised by the idea that there is an opportunity cost in checking whether you are preventing or causing fraud. That seems to be a strange discussion. The analogy made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Garnier, with HSE and health and safety, is a good one: yes, it is a cost to make sure that you are doing something safely but it is a much wider benefit. The notion that 95% to 98% of the business community should be allowed not to consider their impact on fraud because that would get in the way of their growth is strange, because that growth would then be predicated on very shaky circumstances. I am not persuaded by the counterarguments, but I have been persuaded strongly by the noble and learned Lord.

Similarly, on the Motion from the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, causing agencies to be too tentative and restricted in how they go about prosecuting people is an important issue. It is clear from what we have heard from the outside world that this gets in the way of prosecutions. It also causes the prosecuting authorities to go for low-hanging fruit—that is, easier propositions—and avoid harder and often more severe prosecutions. That is a chilling effect which we should be worrying about when we look at this issue.

These two important amendments have been trimmed in the light of the rejection of the last set by the House of Commons. Noble Lords and Baronesses on these Benches will be happy to support them, if and when they are moved to a vote.

Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership

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Thursday 20th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, the nature of the CPTPP is that the countries that are trading with each other have to police the new trade that results from that agreement. Can the Minister tell your Lordships how the Government will set up the process of monitoring and ensuring that the trade we have with this new group is truly free?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

The whole idea of the CPTPP deal is precisely to do with free trade and fair trade. That will be very closely monitored within the group. The benefit to our importers and exporters will be considerable, particularly around some of the rules of origin. We will now be in a position to accept goods coming in from these 11 countries, bring them into our supply chains and then export thereafter. The benefits are significant and, in the meantime, fair trade will be monitored, as it always would be.

Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill

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3rd reading
Tuesday 4th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Vaux of Harrowden (CB)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for these amendments. As he said, I described at Report the loophole in the register of overseas entities that allows people to hide the true ownership of UK properties through nominee arrangements. As the Minister described, he tabled Amendment 9, as he undertook to do, which effectively closes that loophole. I am not sure what conclusion to take from the fact that my original 11-line amendment has turned into one that runs to three pages—it presumably says something about my amendment drafting skills—but I am most grateful.

The other amendments that the Minister tabled relate to the register of persons with significant control. These new amendments tighten the rules and will improve the ability to identify PSCs. In particular, I welcome the requirement for the information to be filed on a centrally held register, rather than locally held registers managed by the companies themselves. The requirement to explain why a company is exempt from the PSC requirements is also an important improvement.

I was slightly confused as to what happens if a company has become aware that it has a PSC but the PSC has not yet confirmed their status or information. Amendment 20 appears to deal with that situation; it requires the company to notify the registrar if it knows, or has cause to believe, that a person has become a registrable person but has not yet had confirmation. However, that seems to conflict with the explanatory statement to Amendment 17:

“This means that a company will only need to notify the registrar of a person with significant control if the person has confirmed their status and information about them”.


Amendment 20 says that the registrar must be notified of an unconfirmed PSC but Amendment 17, or at least the explanatory statement to it, seems to say exactly the opposite. Can the Minister please explain which is right and how the two work together? More importantly, can he reassure me that a PSC will not be able to avoid being notified to the registrar simply by failing to confirm their status or information.

I put on record that, while I welcome and support the amendments, I do not believe that they deal with the problem of nominee shareholders not having to declare themselves as such. The new amendments are not an alternative to the amendment that the House passed on Report that required shareholders to state whether or not they are acting as a nominee, and if so who for. I hope that the Government will continue to consider that amendment and look at it favourably in the other place, or at the very least meet with me and others to see whether we can find a workable compromise. It should not be possible for bad actors to hide behind nominees, and there should be consequences for those who act as nominees to conceal such bad actors.

I am extremely grateful to the Minister and his officials for their helpful and constructive engagement throughout this process; they have been extremely generous with their time. In particular, I thank them for having addressed a number of issues, including the one we have just talked about, throughout the progress of the Bill. The level of engagement from all Ministers involved has been exemplary—if only all Bills were managed so constructively. I also thank all noble Lords who have been so generous in their support of the various amendments that I have proposed. When the Bill started in this House, it was generally seen to be a good Bill, and I think that it emerges from this House in even better shape.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, there are times when your Lordships’ House is confronted with so many Third Reading amendments that it can be somewhat irksome, but this is not one of those occasions. This is a useful and helpful response from the Minister and his team to the debate we had on Report, and for that I thank them.

I reinforce the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, that these amendments do not replace those that we passed on Report, which I similarly hope the Minister and his team will continue to consider as we go forward.

Transparency of ownership and the registration of overseas entities are important to this. The point we have made on a number of occasions about keeping the whole Bill under review and looking at how it works once it becomes an Act will be vital. It is clear that we cannot second-guess all the reactions we will get out there, so having the fluidity and agility to deal with that will be important.

Although it is slightly confusing, I will offer my thanks and congratulations at this point, so that I do not do so twice. First, I congratulate the Ministers on getting legislative consent so smoothly. For many of the Bills that I have been working on of late, legislative consent never seems to come. However, unlike many of those Bills, this is one where all the House agreed on its objectives, so all we were discussing were the ways in which we could achieve those objectives. In that regard, I thank the Ministers for the great amount of time and effort they have devoted to listening to, and having meetings with, Members across your Lordships’ House and for seeking ways of accommodating our helpful suggestions. Particular thanks are due to the noble Lords, Lord Johnson and Lord Sharpe, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Bellamy, as well as the noble Lord, Lord Goldsmith, and the noble Earl, Lord Minto, who made appearances in Grand Committee.

Similarly, the whole Bill team, and organisations such as Companies House, have given up a lot of their time to speak with us, so thanks should be given to them. There have been many contributions from the Cross Benches and the Benches opposite. I will not single out anyone for praise, except to say that it has been a great pleasure working with everyone on the Bill; I felt that we were all pulling in the same direction.

I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, and the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, for their camaraderie on the Bill. I thank my noble friends Lady Bowles, Lady Kramer, Lord Clement-Jones, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, Lord Thomas of Gresford and Lord Oates on our Benches. Finally, thanks go to Sarah Pughe in our Whips Office, who has kept us all in order.

Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill

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Report stage
Tuesday 20th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I apologise for my croakiness; the hay fever is definitely winning. I join others in welcoming, in these government amendments, that we have seen significant change since Committee. It is worth highlighting a couple of comments from the Minister’s introduction. He said that the aim of the Bill to drive dirty money out of the UK; I hope we can all agree that that is essential. He also said that we had seen so many people abusing our open system; I think we have to acknowledge that we invited those people in, and that that is the situation we created. We are now trying to fix it.

In that light, I very much welcome the fact that the Minister said that we need to see how these changes bed in before going significantly further. I want to make sure that we acknowledge, and see on the record, the fact that the Government have acknowledged that this is not enough, and that a lot more will need to be done, in what is, after all, as described by UK Finance,

“the fraud capital of the world”.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, there are political Bills, where the House divides on political issues and argues among itself, and there are Bills of practical importance, when the House can come together and pull in the same direction. We will not all agree about everything, but the motives behind what we are proposing have been similar. In this case, it is about helping to clear up and clean up a bad situation, and to do so in the best possible way. The Minister and his colleagues, the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Bellamy, must be congratulated on their openness and their listening ears. They have not just listened but acted on what they heard, and we should all be grateful that we have moved in this direction.

I am pleased that I can agree with the noble Lords, Lord Leigh of Hurley and Lord Agnew, in their characterisation of these changes, which are important. I think the change to the mission of Companies House is absolutely fundamental. It is vital that it is there, and it then plays to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, about the culture change, as well as, I think, giving the flexibility and understanding that—again, as the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, said—this is going to be a mobile struggle that we have to move forward.

This group of amendments is followed by other groups which are other examples of where listening has turned into positive changes. From these Benches, we are really pleased that we are moving in this direction, and are grateful that we have done that. As we have heard, the Bill is improving as a result. So we are very supportive of these measures, and continue to be supportive of the other measures that we will hear about later.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

My Lords, I add my thanks to the Ministers for their regular updates, and the access we have had to their officials. The ability to meet the team from Companies House was particularly helpful and instructive. I too believe that we have a better Bill before us.

Having said that, we must not forget the scale and severity of the consequences of actions of bad actors, particularly the exposure of the public to fraud, nor the victims, who have suffered so appallingly over many years. As we know, the Ukraine war has brought all these issues to a head, necessitating a swift response. I thank everyone involved for responding positively to some of the many proposals that we have put forward.

I will refer particularly to Amendment 2, with regard to the fourth objective. It would be wrong of me not to mention the fact that the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, as has been mentioned, was very forceful in his views that the objective surely must be to prevent unlawful activities rather than to minimise them, as was the earlier wording. I also welcome the change to the third objective, and the increase in the ability of the registrar to strike off companies and take swift action. Again, I think that running through this is the emphasis on the ability to act quickly with clarity.

I acknowledge the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, which would bring in a framework of intervention criteria to assist the registrar, and particularly Amendment 57, which recognises the sheer scale of the task ahead of Companies House and seeks full, regular scrutiny. I want to put on record our concern about the sheer scale of the task ahead of Companies House and make it plain that we must communicate to everyone involved that there is a fallback position and that it can come back if the resources are not adequate for the job it has in hand. The scale of change it has to go through, from being a receiver of information to a proactive partner, is quite significant.

I again thank the Ministers involved for their openness and for having moved on a number of our suggestions.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

My Lords, the amendments in this group relate to the new director disqualification sanctions measure introduced in Committee. This measure created a completely new type of sanction in the Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Act 2018 called director disqualification sanctions. It will be unlawful for a designated person subject to this new measure to act as a director of a company. I welcome the support this measure received from this House in Committee.

Government Amendments 5 to 11 address some technical drafting concerns raised by Northern Ireland officials. The amendments clarify that the definition of a

“person who is subject to director disqualification sanctions”

encompasses disqualification for the purposes of the Company Directors Disqualification Act 1986, which applies in England, Wales and Scotland, and the Company Directors Disqualification (Northern Ireland) Order 2002, which applies in Northern Ireland. This does not alter the legal consequences of the measure but simply clarifies that the definition relates to both Great Britain and Northern Ireland legislation.

The amendments also make clear that the Department for the Economy in Northern Ireland will now be required to maintain information about individuals subject to the new director disqualification sanction in the department’s register of disqualified directors. This mirrors the requirement for the Secretary of State to update the UK-wide director disqualification register, ensuring consistency between GB and NI legislation.

Lastly, these amendments clarify when a designated person, or a person acting on the instructions of a designated person, is responsible for the debts of a company. The current drafting does not address the liability of a third party who acts on the instructions of a designated person. These amendments therefore specify the circumstances in which a third party acting under instructions from a designated person may be liable and clarifies the defences that may relieve the designated person or the third party from personal liability.

The amendments mean that a person will not be responsible for debts incurred when they could not reasonably have known they were subject to director disqualification sanctions. And a third party who acts on instructions that were given by a person who they did not know was subject to director disqualification sanctions, or who they reasonably believed was acting under the authority of a licence, will similarly not be responsible. As a package, these amendments improve the coherence of the new director disqualification sanctions measure.

Government Amendments 52 and 53 amend Clause 101 of the Bill, which inserts new Section 1132A into the Companies Act 2006. Government Amendment 83 inserts into the Bill after Clause 169 a new clause which amends Section 39 of the Economic Crime (Transparency and Enforcement) Act 2022. Both new sections allow the Secretary of State to make regulations which confer power on the registrar to impose a financial penalty on a person if satisfied, beyond reasonable doubt, that the person has engaged in conduct amounting to an offence. These amendments align the drafting with the drafting of Clause 202 of this Bill, which inserts new Section 17A into the Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Act 2018. These amendments mean that regulations must provide that no financial penalty may be imposed on a person in respect of whom criminal proceedings are ongoing, or if a person has been convicted of an offence. At the moment, it is the other way around, so criminal proceedings cannot be continued once a penalty is imposed. This is clearly unhelpful, as without amendment, prosecutors’ discretion to prosecute could be infringed upon.

Government Amendment 50 relates to the setting of Companies House fees. It will allow the Secretary of State to take into account additional costs incurred, or likely to be incurred, in relation to the new disqualified directors sanction which the Bill is introducing. Specifically, this amendment will ensure the costs of delivering the licensing function for this sanction can be covered by Companies House fees. Without this amendment, the costs of this licensing regime would fall on the taxpayer. We have made great strides through this legislation to require those that benefit from incorporated status to contribute towards maintaining the integrity of the register and a healthy business environment. It therefore seems reasonable for this to extend to the funding of the licensing regime that enables sanctioned directors to remain compliant and continue lawfully to carry out certain activities within the limitations set out in the licence.

I hope noble Lords will support these amendments. I beg to move.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, again this is a group of amendments with which we can thoroughly agree, which is a nice position to be in. Government Amendments 5 to 11 speak for themselves in the sense of tidying up the situation in Northern Ireland. The one amendment that is worth dwelling on a little bit is government Amendment 50, which gets to the point around resources and having sufficient resources for Companies House to be able to do what it needs to do.

There is a certain irony that, if the Companies House team is successful, there will be fewer companies on the register. So one of the things they will need to consider about fees is that they will be reducing the number of companies or the amount of income that will come per company. One of the issues in setting them is that, if estimates of 5% of companies being fraudulent are right, there will be 5% fewer companies paying the annual renewal. Some people, and some organisations, put that number much higher, so I suggest that the Government think about the success that Companies House will hopefully have in order to set a fee that does not become self-defeating if it removes companies.

The more companies the team removes from the register, the less money Companies House receives in annual renewal. That is the point I am making. I am assuming that this number will come quite soon after this Bill becomes an Act, and it would be useful for the Minister to update us on when we think the secondary legislation will come, because, clearly, Companies House and others will rely on this money for planning ahead. I am assuming the money goes to Companies House and not the Treasury, but perhaps the Minister could confirm that.

If the Minister could say a little around the operation of Amendment 50, that would be helpful—so that I understand it even if everybody else already does. He could say a little about how much money and how changeable it will be in the event that more money is needed to support the drive to remove criminality from our companies. I think that everything else is broadly very welcome.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, we agree with all the amendments in this group. This group is all government amendments which make minor changes to ensure that penalties align with previous legislation, that they are taken into account when setting fees and that penalties do not stop criminal proceedings, as the noble Lord explained introducing the amendments.

I take the point the noble Lord, Lord Fox, made about Amendment 50. I presume fees can be updated as the situation evolves regarding the number of companies on the register. Nevertheless, we support this group of amendments and look forward to the Minister’s response to the questions asked by the noble Lord, Lord Fox.

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[Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)]

My Lords, I support Amendments 16 and 17 from the noble Lord, Lord Vaux. I shall also speak to my Amendment 19.

I do not want to repeat everything that the noble Lord has said, but I received a letter from my noble friend the Minister yesterday on this subject that included the subheading, “Transparency over shareholders and nominees”, and one of the arguments that the Government are making is that this could cause a significant cost to the economy. We have just heard from the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, that that is, frankly, a fantasy; if the average number of shareholders per company is two—perhaps the Minister could confirm that, but it is certainly my instinctive understanding—then what is the cost?

In any case, that should be put against the cost to the economy of the fraud and economic crime that is happening at the moment at an increasing rate. We have endlessly reminded ourselves that 40% of all crime in this country is now economic crime. I know from my time in government that the loss to fraud in government alone each year—this is the bottom-end estimate by the NAO—is £30 billion, and a lot of that is facilitated through the holes in the Companies House structure. I urge the Minister to think hard about this because it is a great opportunity, at minimal cost to the economy or to business, to make a substantial change.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

I shall speak to Amendment 16, to which I have added my name, and I support the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, in his clear outline as to why this is an elegant solution. It is so because it would push the onus on to the supplier of the service and make them decide whether to lie or tell the truth. A lie detector, in a sense, for dishonest actors is a very good way of exposing this practice. It is not unreasonable to know who is behind a company; in fact, it is perfectly reasonable that we should.

Amendment 17 from the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, also contains an important point: at what point does the cut-off come? It will be interesting to hear what the Minister has to say about the continuum between 25% and 5%. The Government have chosen 25%, which is a very large number when you think about it. The numbers breakdown given by the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, is clear that it would not mean that a huge number of people had to be identified, even if his suggestion of 5% was adopted by the Government.

If the noble Lord chooses to move Amendment 16 then it is safe to say that we on these Benches will support it, and we will wait to hear what the Minister has to say on other matters.

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[Lord Fox (LD)]

I have nothing to add.

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I thank my noble friend Lord Leigh and the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, for their comments. It is absolutely right that we have this brief discussion about this point. Just to reaffirm, the intention of the amendment is not to suppress information or increase opacity. It is to give the opportunity to be discretionary in terms of what is published and what is not published. Section 468 of the Companies Act provides us with the power only to prescribe the format that small and micro entity accounts are received in but not to differentiate between what is received and what is included on the public register. The first point, therefore, is that it just gives flexibility, which, I think, noble Lords will agree is sensible.

The second point is that we have received a number of representations from small and micro-entities that are naturally concerned about the publishing of information that relates specifically to their own wealth. There is concern that they may be open to a higher degree of fraud and that they will receive undue commercial pressures as a result of, say, a landlord being able to see what their turnover is and so adjusting their rent upwards accordingly, and so on. The point is that I am speculating.

If noble Lords will allow me to say so, the intention of this amendment is to allow us the flexibility to consult broadly with all stakeholders—I listed clearly that these include credit lenders, enforcement agencies, small businesses, micro-entities and others—in order to work out what the right level of information is. It may be all of it, but this amendment certainly gives the Secretary of State, in some situations and for some specific cases, an opportunity not to publish this information, although it will still be retained by Companies House. That flexibility is absolutely right; it is right that this House allows the Secretary of State that level of flexibility. It is also right that this House will no doubt engage in a meaningful and useful debate on levels of transparency, but at least we now have flexibility.

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[Lord Leigh of Hurley (Con)]

Although my noble friend the Minister has described me in very flattering terms today, for which I am grateful, I will not add to the flattery, as his noble kinsman is no longer sitting next to me. I just want to add a note of caution, because it is on the record in Amendment 93 from my noble friend Lord Agnew, on the possibility of HMRC taking AML to be of equal priority to tax collecting, essentially. I declare an interest as chairman of the Finance Bill Sub-Committee of the Economic Affairs Committee that investigated R&D tax credits, which led to HMRC’s accounts being qualified given the level of uncertainty. I just want to put it on the record that we all want HMRC to focus on tax collection, with fraud focused on in other areas.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

The Minister will be blushing with the fulsome praise that he has received. I think he described it as a significant package of improvements and as major steps. The noble Lord, Lord Agnew, went further and described them as revolutionary changes. The Minister can be sure that he has hit an important nail very firmly on the head with this set of amendments. I think we all believe that this makes the Bill a much better Bill, and for that, we are very pleased.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I rise just to add our support for the amendments. I emphasise the concern that has been raised in Amendment 93 from the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, in terms of recognising the significant function that HMRC has. I listened to the noble Lord, Lord Leigh, with interest. I think there is some issue with looking at the two functions equally and making sure there is no conflict between them.