Tata Steel: Port Talbot

Lord Fox Excerpts

Tuesday 19th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

Noble Lords will understand that there is deep concern about the loss of as many as 3,000 jobs in south Wales. It is important to remember that, for many communities, this is not happening for the first time. The areas of the country where steel making is still a significant industry are scarred by decisions made in the 1980s in the name of progress by Conservative politicians without any thought to the economic devastation or the need for alternative investment, and no understanding of the damage to community pride, sense of place and even long-term health of the people affected. Doing deals over the heads of local people and then presenting as a success an outcome that costs £0.5 billion of taxpayers’ money and 3,000 jobs, leaving us with only one blast furnace site in the UK and diminished capacity to make virgin steel, shows how arrogant, out of touch, lacking in strategy and blasé this Government have become.

There are some serious questions that the Government have so far failed to answer. First, why was this deal done behind the backs of the workforce and their representatives? Secondly, the electric arc furnace uses scrap steel, but this will not work for Trostre and Llanwern, so where will that steel come from in future? Will it come from India or Turkey? Thirdly, when will a grid connection for the arc furnace be provided? Fourthly, what specifically is the intention for the site? Fifthly, what is going to be done to support the workforce?

Green steel is something that we all support, including workers and trades unions, so the Government need to do much better in planning for transition because, if this mass job loss model becomes the norm, workforce and wider public support will vanish. Transition requires trust, detail, openness and the involvement of all interested parties, and the Government have failed Port Talbot. The most important question that the Government need to answer is simply this: do they accept that the ability to make virgin steel for our national security is strategically important and must be sustained? Will they guarantee that the UK will retain its ability to make virgin steel in future?

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for allowing us to debate this Statement. The noble Baroness from His Majesty’s loyal Opposition made some important points, and I associate myself with her remarks. I have some additional questions.

The agreement to fund the installation of new arc furnaces for steel making will have a positive effect on emissions, and that is good news. However, as the noble Baroness said, the package could mean as many as 3,000 job losses in the UK, and in one area of the UK. That is a terrible outcome.

Tata is reported as warning that there would be a

“transition period including potential deep restructuring”

at the plant. I am not sure that I understand what that means. Can the Minister please translate it for your Lordships’ House in real terms and real lives? Those jobs are being shed. What plans do the Government have to support those people and that local economy when the jobs go? What are the plans for retraining, for example? What are the realistic expectations for a concentration of new and different jobs in that area?

As we also heard, the electric arc furnaces deliver different grades and qualities of steel compared to what we get from a blast furnace site. What is the Government’s assessment as to how the new capacity in this country as a result of that will affect the profile of steel we need to import? To add to the point that the noble Baroness made, what is the assessment on resilience in this country as a result of this change?

The new coal mine in Whitehaven that was last year partially waved through by Michael Gove is also a factor here. West Cumbria Mining said that the coking coal that it would produce would be used for steel making in the UK and Europe. As the Minister knows, electric arcs do not use coke. Yesterday’s announcement removes at a stroke a large proportion of the domestic market for that mine, meaning that the mine will be almost solely for export only, which even further removes the legitimacy of that venture.

The Statement mentions that the British industry supercharger, aimed at assisting electricity prices and helping to make them competitive for energy-intensive industries, will be applied here. His Majesty’s Government responded to the consultation on this only on 5 September, so I suspect that this is its first outing. I really do not understand what it is, but it is cited in reports. Can the Minister please write to us outlining what it is and what it means? I saw the consultation on the British industry supercharger and the response to it, and it is cited as being applied here. How is it applied? What are the terms of that application and what does it mean in energy terms for this business? What other businesses are now in line to benefit from it—not least Scunthorpe, where the Chinese owners cited energy costs as the reason for their shutting down of its coking ovens?

I have a couple of other points. Tata expects to release land at Port Talbot for transfer or sale following the closure of the blast furnaces. This land presumably hosted high industrial activity for decades, so who will be responsible for the not inconsiderable costs of decontaminating and remediating this land before it becomes useful and valuable for anything else? Who will be stumping up these costs?

In conclusion, we have seen a number of government interventions, including the also Tata-owned Jaguar Land Rover, Nissan, BMW and perhaps, going forward, British Steel. It has been said by some that these are foreign investors who are masters at extracting subsidies. We understand that there is an international subsidy competition going on here, but how does the Minister respond to that charge? The Chancellor has said that he was not prepared to go toe to toe with the US and EU in the subsidy bidding war, but this looks like the Government reacting to things when they settle in their in-tray. A patchwork of deals is a poor substitute for a coherent industrial strategy. Where is His Majesty’s Government’s plan? What are the Government seeking to cause to happen, or should we expect further examples of sticking plaster activity?

[Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)]

My Lords—

[The Minister of State, Department for Business and Trade (Lord Johnson of Lainston) (Con)]

Apologies, my Lord. I think I have the opportunity now to respond to the two opening speeches and then I will answer questions one at a time, if I have the order correct.

I greatly appreciate the debate we have had so far over what I believe is a pretty sensational recovery of an extremely difficult situation. Noble Lords will be aware that these conversations around Port Talbot have been going on for many years—some say even more than a decade. Certainly, from my own experience in the private sector, I regarded the situation with a great degree of pessimism, to be frank, and I am surprised that the tone of the debate is not more positive. That does not negate the realities of saving the situation and the transformation that will result in the locality.

I will go through the points raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman. I am happy to answer them one by one because we have a strong and coherent policy response to each of the very important points raised. This is a very serious issue. We are not playing politics here; we are dealing with people’s lives and the important commitment of, I believe, all of us in this House to maintain steel production in Port Talbot and to guarantee a future for those communities. What we have ended up with is a powerful opportunity for this country to reshape its industrial base in terms of producing steel and reducing emissions. Noble Lords will be aware of the astonishing level of emissions that Port Talbot alone produces; I think it is 1% of our entire national output. If we are serious—and I think, collectively, we are—about reducing carbon emissions, to reduce one site that produces 1% of the emissions by 80%, which is what this outcome will produce, is significant for the collective challenge we are presented with.

I also find, if I may say so to noble Lords in this House and to the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, and the noble Lord, Lord Fox, that there is an opportunity to shift. This is a business case—so it is subjective and perfectly reasonable to raise it—for virgin steel, whereby we import the ore, at great cost to emissions and national resilience, and recycle the nine or 10 million-plus tonnes of scrap. This presents an opportunity to us, to Port Talbot, to the people of Wales and to the whole country to realign our steelmaking industry—to rightly make the most of this scrap steel, which otherwise is being exported to Turkey or the US to be recycled. We were losing out on an enormous opportunity to be part of the circular economy.

Let us look at the prima facie business case for what the Government have done, to work in partnership with Tata. I put on record my personal thanks to the leadership of Tata for the extraordinarily good tone of the negotiations that I know it engaged in. From my first meeting with the chairman of Tata a year ago—although I was not involved in these specific negotiations —there was a very clear signal that Tata felt it was important that it reflected its family ownership in terms of commitment to the community of Port Talbot and the United Kingdom. I hope all noble Lords will join me in expressing thanks for the intense amount of good will demonstrated.

The Government have been extremely brave and forward-footed in bringing forward a proposal that will enable us to transform this site, reduce our emissions and, through the transformation to the Celtic freeport projects and the work we shall do—the noble Lord, Lord Fox, rightly raised this—in releasing land that is currently either potentially contaminated or has risk around it, create up to 16,000 new jobs. The noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, is right to call back some of the policy decisions taken in the 1980s, when there probably was not enough sensitivity paid to the transformation process, which affects people but ultimately makes us safer. That is why the Government have been extremely aware of and sensitive to this crucial point that affects people’s lives. Working with Tata—again, a private enterprise—we have created, or are in the process of establishing, a £100 million fund specifically to look after the communities and the people affected. I am aware that specific task forces are being set up to ensure that the process can be properly handled.

There is a reasonable case to be made by noble Lords, although I do necessarily agree with it, about the process by which this announcement was made, but I am sure all noble Lords who have been involved in sensitive and complex commercial negotiations will be aware that the specific terms cannot be entirely public. It was quite right that we got to a good decision, rather than one jeopardised by too much general community discussion. However, as the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, will know well, as will her colleagues on the Front Bench, these discussions have been going on for a very long time. Indeed, the announcement of electric arc furnaces at Port Talbot really should have brought great relief to many people, because the worry in the air was that a far more jeopardous decision would be made.

This gives us an enormous opportunity to restructure our industry and reduce our emissions, which is a core commitment of all sides of this House and this Government. It gives us an opportunity to reinvent a huge site with great potential, creating tens of thousands of jobs. I have tried to take a much more positive view of what is a wonderful partnership between the Government, private enterprise and the community that will safeguard thousands of jobs, when the risk of losing those jobs was so significant.

I am aware that both the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, and the noble Lord, Lord Fox, asked me specific questions, which I am sure other noble Lords would like answers to. If the noble Baroness will allow me, I will just cover those points I did not cover in my main speech. There is an issue over virgin steel. The noble Lord, Lord Fox, suggested that we guarantee always to have a capacity for virgin steel.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

I did not say that; I just asked what the assessment was.

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I apologise. The noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, asked whether we would guarantee to make virgin steel strategically important. It is not my place at this Dispatch Box to make such industrial guarantees. However—again, I am happy to take advice from experts—the arc furnaces being installed at Port Talbot are far more sophisticated, I am told, than current arc furnaces in scale, sophistication and the quality of the steel they can produce. They will produce, even on the current plans, steel very close to the quality that we require for all our steel needs.

Think of the automotive sector. Port Talbot provides half of all sheet metal for the automotive sector in the UK. That can still be provided. Think of railway track. That, I am told, can still be provided using these processes. We will be importing the necessary steel to produce cans and other specific steel that requires virgin steel, but we believe that over time—this is where the technical debate comes into play—we can produce the same quality of steel that is hoped for to enable us to ensure that we have resilience in that area.

I was asked about the supply of green energy. I assume that linked to that is a question about connectivity and pace of change. We are in discussions with National Grid, Tata and other agencies to ensure that can be done as soon as practically possible. The process that has led up to this very celebratory announcement has been going on for some time and there has been a great deal of planning. I do not have a specific date but the assumption is that everything will go on track in terms of the supply of green energy, grid connectivity, the decommissioning of the blast furnaces and the introduction of the electric arc furnaces.

I believe there was a question about support for the workforce, which I hope I have covered. In his comments the noble Lord, Lord Fox, raised the situation of the Whitehaven mine. There was never an indication by Tata that it was going to use the coking product from that mine, so I cannot answer further than to say that that was never in the expected plan, whatever the outcome was. I am happy to look further into the export possibilities of the mine, but I do not think that is necessarily relevant today.

The British industry supercharger is a follow-on policy to support energy-intensive industries and make sure that they can compete. I am happy to write to the noble Lord on the specific number of companies that qualify. It is not a huge number; it is quite a specific number of heavy energy users that we are supporting to make sure that they can compete on an international scale. I think all noble Lords would agree that it is very important that we continue to provide that type of support.

I have two final points. I have covered the decontamination point briefly; one of the very important elements of the decision-making around this process was why we could not simply sell the site to a third party. I asked that question myself. The reality is that there are so many complexities around the site, including decontamination and the liabilities that the Government would have had to undertake, that this is genuinely the most effective way to retain as efficient a support level from the Government as possible—not to oversubsidise or oversupport—while at the same time ensuring that the company is viable and can be successful. I mean this in a heartfelt and sincere way. We can deal with the significant issues that those sites present, and at the same time it will have the knock-on effect of using the land for the amazing regenerative opportunities of the Celtic port plan.

On my last point, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Fox, for raising some of the great successes over the last few months. I have been proud to be part of the department that has delivered these successes, such as the announcement a few months ago of the Tata gigafactory, one of the largest buildings ever to be built in the history of this country, maybe even the largest, and one of the biggest investments ever in the car industry; the announcement that Stellantis are going to build Fiats, Peugeots and Citroëns in Ellesmere Port after significant consideration of whether or not it wanted to base their production facilities in the UK; and the announcement last week that BMW is going to—again, after significant consideration—build its electric Minis in this country. Further announcements from companies such as Nissan on its capacity to build cars will ensure that this country has a strong industrial base.

I am very proud of what we have managed to achieve. They are true public/private partnerships. We are asked whether we have a strategy. The strategy is: we want a strong industrial base in this country and, if I may say so, we are delivering it.

Employers: Fire and Rehire Tactics

Lord Fox Excerpts

Thursday 14th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

Throughout the course of this Parliament, commitments have been made around the manifesto commitments on employment given by the party on this side of the House. Over the last Parliament, six Private Members’ Bills have been brought through to enhance and protect workers’ rights. As I said, we are trying to strike the balance between workers’ protection and employers’ flexibility.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, in answer to my noble friend’s question about P&O Ferries, the Minister rightly characterised its behaviour as an illegal act. However, P&O Ferries is now economically active and out there, doing what it always did. Will the Minister undertake to do an analysis of the turnover and profit of P&O Ferries now versus the sanctions it received? If those sanctions prove to have been insufficient, as I believe they will, will the Minister undertake to increase them to prevent a repeat of that disgraceful activity?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

My understanding is that the P&O case is still under consideration with the insolvency authorities, so I cannot comment further on it. Further consultation is going on, taking account of this case and specifically the difference between dismissal and redundancy. That will also be in the code of practice. P&O has received censure. It continues to operate within the laws of the United Kingdom and should be allowed to continue to do so.

Small and Medium-sized Enterprises: Interest Rates

Lord Fox Excerpts

Wednesday 13th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

I entirely agree with my noble friend about the very good news about the economy. The EIS and SEIS schemes, along with VCT, have been enormously popular and successful, with over £40 billion being invested since their inception in 1994. We are assured by the Chancellor that the Government are committed to their renewal. We absolutely recognise the need for investors and companies, so that investment continues without interruption going forward. My noble friend will understand that I cannot give exact timings today, but the details will be provided by His Majesty’s Treasury ahead of the renewal date. On the European clauses, I ask your Lordships to understand that the Chancellor will have in mind that any renewal is for UK business only and no longer for the wider European audience.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, on 17 July the Financial Times reported that the Prime Minister was convening a new business advisory council, bringing together senior bosses to shape government policy. The paper lists

“AstraZeneca, NatWest, BAE Systems, SSE, Google DeepMind, J Sainsbury, Vodafone, GSK, Aviva, Shell, Sage, Taylor Wimpey, Diageo and Barclays”.

That does not leave much room for the SMEs to get their message across, but it does typify the big business approach taken by this Government. Will the Minister confirm who is on this council, whether it has met yet, and how he expects small and medium-sized businesses to be able to catch the Prime Minister’s ear in such company?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

The noble Lord makes a very good point. Those are some of the largest international companies in the world, and I am sure that they will provide the Prime Minister with some extremely helpful advice. Having said that, as we all know, in this country the vast majority of businesses are small and medium-sized enterprises. In my role, I communicate with them almost constantly, both individuals and representative bodies. The value they have to add to these sorts of fora should not be underestimated. They are an extremely valuable and successful part of our economy.

Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill

Lord Fox Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments
Monday 11th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Garnier (Con)]

My Lords, I had the privilege of being a member of the noble Lord’s committee. I agreed with what he had to say then, and I agree with what he has just said now.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, in his opening dispatch the Minister praised those involved for the way in which the Bill has been modified and changed. The noble Lord, Lord Agnew, needs to take a lot of credit for how that modification has gone ahead, and the work that he has done and will have to continue to do in his role overseeing the Government’s response to this. I will not repeat anything that has already been said, other than to say that I agree.

The reason we are concerned about this issue is that the Government will rightfully say that they know who the names are in these trusts, but the issue we are talking about is the publication. It has been the role of civil society and journalists to uncover problems, and that has been very important in issues around this. If the Government can demonstrate that their commitment to enforcement, getting behind these trusts and exposing people who are using them to avoid issues is fully funded and fully backed by them, our relying on civil society—which we have had to do to date—would be less of an issue. That is why we support the quest by the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, on this, and will support him as he seeks to make sure that further steps are appropriate and that enforcement is at the heart of what we seek to achieve here.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

My Lords, I start by thanking the Minister for the broader tidying up of the amendments in this group and by reflecting on the time, over several months, that we have been discussing these important issues. We must keep our eye on the scale of the issues that we are dealing with; they are immense, and they cost this country billions of pounds. We have a great deal to do to repair the UK’s reputation in the world, and I hope that we involved in this debate will all have our eyes on that prize.

I am pleased to say that we have seen some positive changes achieved through the passage of this Bill and a genuine appetite for change, as we experienced with our conversation with Companies House. We are going through an immense cultural change in the management of these affairs. As we know, it is the biggest shake-up for 170 years. I also pay tribute to everyone in the Chamber, and those who are not here today, for their diligence in the work that they have done, and to my colleagues in the other place, Dame Margaret Hodge and Seema Malhotra in particular. Months and months of work have gone into getting us to this place.

I am very grateful for the explanation that the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, gave. There is real recognition that there will be an ongoing need to scrutinise. I think we all accept the commitments in good faith, but we need to make it clear to Ministers and their officials that the interest is very live and that there will be close scrutiny as these matters roll up. Compromise has been reached on this—I accept that that is the reason we will not be taking the amendment to a vote—but we add our support to the ongoing scrutiny that will need to take place.

I also pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, for his persistence in this and his unique position having had experience in government, which has informed the approach he has taken and the concern that I think many would agree he has rightly raised. We are where we are—he has decided to accept the reassurances—but we also have an insight into those elephant traps that he referred to. I also reference the comments of my noble friend Lord Eatwell on the explicit need for vigilance.

With those comments, and thanking everyone for the spirit of compromise, I reassure everyone that we will look closely at this, and we very much hope that the measures being brought in today will be sufficient. We will look to those delegated powers that have been built in to make sure that, if change is necessary, it will indeed be made.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hope of Craighead (CB)]

My Lords, I am greatly assisted by the correction made by the noble Lord, Lord Faulks; I had great difficulty in understanding the amendment on first reading. Now that he has corrected it, I would like to say from the point of view of a Scots lawyer that there is nothing startling in the proposition that is made. We in Scotland are quite used to the normal routine that law enforcement agencies are not liable in costs for the proceedings that have been taken, probably for the reasons that the noble Lord has clearly expressed.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, we have benefited from two extremely detailed and learned speeches proposing Motions E1 and H1. On Motion E1, I am exercised by the idea that there is an opportunity cost in checking whether you are preventing or causing fraud. That seems to be a strange discussion. The analogy made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Garnier, with HSE and health and safety, is a good one: yes, it is a cost to make sure that you are doing something safely but it is a much wider benefit. The notion that 95% to 98% of the business community should be allowed not to consider their impact on fraud because that would get in the way of their growth is strange, because that growth would then be predicated on very shaky circumstances. I am not persuaded by the counterarguments, but I have been persuaded strongly by the noble and learned Lord.

Similarly, on the Motion from the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, causing agencies to be too tentative and restricted in how they go about prosecuting people is an important issue. It is clear from what we have heard from the outside world that this gets in the way of prosecutions. It also causes the prosecuting authorities to go for low-hanging fruit—that is, easier propositions—and avoid harder and often more severe prosecutions. That is a chilling effect which we should be worrying about when we look at this issue.

These two important amendments have been trimmed in the light of the rejection of the last set by the House of Commons. Noble Lords and Baronesses on these Benches will be happy to support them, if and when they are moved to a vote.

Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership

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Thursday 20th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, the nature of the CPTPP is that the countries that are trading with each other have to police the new trade that results from that agreement. Can the Minister tell your Lordships how the Government will set up the process of monitoring and ensuring that the trade we have with this new group is truly free?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

The whole idea of the CPTPP deal is precisely to do with free trade and fair trade. That will be very closely monitored within the group. The benefit to our importers and exporters will be considerable, particularly around some of the rules of origin. We will now be in a position to accept goods coming in from these 11 countries, bring them into our supply chains and then export thereafter. The benefits are significant and, in the meantime, fair trade will be monitored, as it always would be.

Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill

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3rd reading
Tuesday 4th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Vaux of Harrowden (CB)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for these amendments. As he said, I described at Report the loophole in the register of overseas entities that allows people to hide the true ownership of UK properties through nominee arrangements. As the Minister described, he tabled Amendment 9, as he undertook to do, which effectively closes that loophole. I am not sure what conclusion to take from the fact that my original 11-line amendment has turned into one that runs to three pages—it presumably says something about my amendment drafting skills—but I am most grateful.

The other amendments that the Minister tabled relate to the register of persons with significant control. These new amendments tighten the rules and will improve the ability to identify PSCs. In particular, I welcome the requirement for the information to be filed on a centrally held register, rather than locally held registers managed by the companies themselves. The requirement to explain why a company is exempt from the PSC requirements is also an important improvement.

I was slightly confused as to what happens if a company has become aware that it has a PSC but the PSC has not yet confirmed their status or information. Amendment 20 appears to deal with that situation; it requires the company to notify the registrar if it knows, or has cause to believe, that a person has become a registrable person but has not yet had confirmation. However, that seems to conflict with the explanatory statement to Amendment 17:

“This means that a company will only need to notify the registrar of a person with significant control if the person has confirmed their status and information about them”.


Amendment 20 says that the registrar must be notified of an unconfirmed PSC but Amendment 17, or at least the explanatory statement to it, seems to say exactly the opposite. Can the Minister please explain which is right and how the two work together? More importantly, can he reassure me that a PSC will not be able to avoid being notified to the registrar simply by failing to confirm their status or information.

I put on record that, while I welcome and support the amendments, I do not believe that they deal with the problem of nominee shareholders not having to declare themselves as such. The new amendments are not an alternative to the amendment that the House passed on Report that required shareholders to state whether or not they are acting as a nominee, and if so who for. I hope that the Government will continue to consider that amendment and look at it favourably in the other place, or at the very least meet with me and others to see whether we can find a workable compromise. It should not be possible for bad actors to hide behind nominees, and there should be consequences for those who act as nominees to conceal such bad actors.

I am extremely grateful to the Minister and his officials for their helpful and constructive engagement throughout this process; they have been extremely generous with their time. In particular, I thank them for having addressed a number of issues, including the one we have just talked about, throughout the progress of the Bill. The level of engagement from all Ministers involved has been exemplary—if only all Bills were managed so constructively. I also thank all noble Lords who have been so generous in their support of the various amendments that I have proposed. When the Bill started in this House, it was generally seen to be a good Bill, and I think that it emerges from this House in even better shape.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, there are times when your Lordships’ House is confronted with so many Third Reading amendments that it can be somewhat irksome, but this is not one of those occasions. This is a useful and helpful response from the Minister and his team to the debate we had on Report, and for that I thank them.

I reinforce the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, that these amendments do not replace those that we passed on Report, which I similarly hope the Minister and his team will continue to consider as we go forward.

Transparency of ownership and the registration of overseas entities are important to this. The point we have made on a number of occasions about keeping the whole Bill under review and looking at how it works once it becomes an Act will be vital. It is clear that we cannot second-guess all the reactions we will get out there, so having the fluidity and agility to deal with that will be important.

Although it is slightly confusing, I will offer my thanks and congratulations at this point, so that I do not do so twice. First, I congratulate the Ministers on getting legislative consent so smoothly. For many of the Bills that I have been working on of late, legislative consent never seems to come. However, unlike many of those Bills, this is one where all the House agreed on its objectives, so all we were discussing were the ways in which we could achieve those objectives. In that regard, I thank the Ministers for the great amount of time and effort they have devoted to listening to, and having meetings with, Members across your Lordships’ House and for seeking ways of accommodating our helpful suggestions. Particular thanks are due to the noble Lords, Lord Johnson and Lord Sharpe, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Bellamy, as well as the noble Lord, Lord Goldsmith, and the noble Earl, Lord Minto, who made appearances in Grand Committee.

Similarly, the whole Bill team, and organisations such as Companies House, have given up a lot of their time to speak with us, so thanks should be given to them. There have been many contributions from the Cross Benches and the Benches opposite. I will not single out anyone for praise, except to say that it has been a great pleasure working with everyone on the Bill; I felt that we were all pulling in the same direction.

I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, and the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, for their camaraderie on the Bill. I thank my noble friends Lady Bowles, Lady Kramer, Lord Clement-Jones, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, Lord Thomas of Gresford and Lord Oates on our Benches. Finally, thanks go to Sarah Pughe in our Whips Office, who has kept us all in order.

Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill

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Report stage
Tuesday 20th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I apologise for my croakiness; the hay fever is definitely winning. I join others in welcoming, in these government amendments, that we have seen significant change since Committee. It is worth highlighting a couple of comments from the Minister’s introduction. He said that the aim of the Bill to drive dirty money out of the UK; I hope we can all agree that that is essential. He also said that we had seen so many people abusing our open system; I think we have to acknowledge that we invited those people in, and that that is the situation we created. We are now trying to fix it.

In that light, I very much welcome the fact that the Minister said that we need to see how these changes bed in before going significantly further. I want to make sure that we acknowledge, and see on the record, the fact that the Government have acknowledged that this is not enough, and that a lot more will need to be done, in what is, after all, as described by UK Finance,

“the fraud capital of the world”.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, there are political Bills, where the House divides on political issues and argues among itself, and there are Bills of practical importance, when the House can come together and pull in the same direction. We will not all agree about everything, but the motives behind what we are proposing have been similar. In this case, it is about helping to clear up and clean up a bad situation, and to do so in the best possible way. The Minister and his colleagues, the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Bellamy, must be congratulated on their openness and their listening ears. They have not just listened but acted on what they heard, and we should all be grateful that we have moved in this direction.

I am pleased that I can agree with the noble Lords, Lord Leigh of Hurley and Lord Agnew, in their characterisation of these changes, which are important. I think the change to the mission of Companies House is absolutely fundamental. It is vital that it is there, and it then plays to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, about the culture change, as well as, I think, giving the flexibility and understanding that—again, as the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, said—this is going to be a mobile struggle that we have to move forward.

This group of amendments is followed by other groups which are other examples of where listening has turned into positive changes. From these Benches, we are really pleased that we are moving in this direction, and are grateful that we have done that. As we have heard, the Bill is improving as a result. So we are very supportive of these measures, and continue to be supportive of the other measures that we will hear about later.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

My Lords, I add my thanks to the Ministers for their regular updates, and the access we have had to their officials. The ability to meet the team from Companies House was particularly helpful and instructive. I too believe that we have a better Bill before us.

Having said that, we must not forget the scale and severity of the consequences of actions of bad actors, particularly the exposure of the public to fraud, nor the victims, who have suffered so appallingly over many years. As we know, the Ukraine war has brought all these issues to a head, necessitating a swift response. I thank everyone involved for responding positively to some of the many proposals that we have put forward.

I will refer particularly to Amendment 2, with regard to the fourth objective. It would be wrong of me not to mention the fact that the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, as has been mentioned, was very forceful in his views that the objective surely must be to prevent unlawful activities rather than to minimise them, as was the earlier wording. I also welcome the change to the third objective, and the increase in the ability of the registrar to strike off companies and take swift action. Again, I think that running through this is the emphasis on the ability to act quickly with clarity.

I acknowledge the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, which would bring in a framework of intervention criteria to assist the registrar, and particularly Amendment 57, which recognises the sheer scale of the task ahead of Companies House and seeks full, regular scrutiny. I want to put on record our concern about the sheer scale of the task ahead of Companies House and make it plain that we must communicate to everyone involved that there is a fallback position and that it can come back if the resources are not adequate for the job it has in hand. The scale of change it has to go through, from being a receiver of information to a proactive partner, is quite significant.

I again thank the Ministers involved for their openness and for having moved on a number of our suggestions.

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[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

My Lords, the amendments in this group relate to the new director disqualification sanctions measure introduced in Committee. This measure created a completely new type of sanction in the Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Act 2018 called director disqualification sanctions. It will be unlawful for a designated person subject to this new measure to act as a director of a company. I welcome the support this measure received from this House in Committee.

Government Amendments 5 to 11 address some technical drafting concerns raised by Northern Ireland officials. The amendments clarify that the definition of a

“person who is subject to director disqualification sanctions”

encompasses disqualification for the purposes of the Company Directors Disqualification Act 1986, which applies in England, Wales and Scotland, and the Company Directors Disqualification (Northern Ireland) Order 2002, which applies in Northern Ireland. This does not alter the legal consequences of the measure but simply clarifies that the definition relates to both Great Britain and Northern Ireland legislation.

The amendments also make clear that the Department for the Economy in Northern Ireland will now be required to maintain information about individuals subject to the new director disqualification sanction in the department’s register of disqualified directors. This mirrors the requirement for the Secretary of State to update the UK-wide director disqualification register, ensuring consistency between GB and NI legislation.

Lastly, these amendments clarify when a designated person, or a person acting on the instructions of a designated person, is responsible for the debts of a company. The current drafting does not address the liability of a third party who acts on the instructions of a designated person. These amendments therefore specify the circumstances in which a third party acting under instructions from a designated person may be liable and clarifies the defences that may relieve the designated person or the third party from personal liability.

The amendments mean that a person will not be responsible for debts incurred when they could not reasonably have known they were subject to director disqualification sanctions. And a third party who acts on instructions that were given by a person who they did not know was subject to director disqualification sanctions, or who they reasonably believed was acting under the authority of a licence, will similarly not be responsible. As a package, these amendments improve the coherence of the new director disqualification sanctions measure.

Government Amendments 52 and 53 amend Clause 101 of the Bill, which inserts new Section 1132A into the Companies Act 2006. Government Amendment 83 inserts into the Bill after Clause 169 a new clause which amends Section 39 of the Economic Crime (Transparency and Enforcement) Act 2022. Both new sections allow the Secretary of State to make regulations which confer power on the registrar to impose a financial penalty on a person if satisfied, beyond reasonable doubt, that the person has engaged in conduct amounting to an offence. These amendments align the drafting with the drafting of Clause 202 of this Bill, which inserts new Section 17A into the Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Act 2018. These amendments mean that regulations must provide that no financial penalty may be imposed on a person in respect of whom criminal proceedings are ongoing, or if a person has been convicted of an offence. At the moment, it is the other way around, so criminal proceedings cannot be continued once a penalty is imposed. This is clearly unhelpful, as without amendment, prosecutors’ discretion to prosecute could be infringed upon.

Government Amendment 50 relates to the setting of Companies House fees. It will allow the Secretary of State to take into account additional costs incurred, or likely to be incurred, in relation to the new disqualified directors sanction which the Bill is introducing. Specifically, this amendment will ensure the costs of delivering the licensing function for this sanction can be covered by Companies House fees. Without this amendment, the costs of this licensing regime would fall on the taxpayer. We have made great strides through this legislation to require those that benefit from incorporated status to contribute towards maintaining the integrity of the register and a healthy business environment. It therefore seems reasonable for this to extend to the funding of the licensing regime that enables sanctioned directors to remain compliant and continue lawfully to carry out certain activities within the limitations set out in the licence.

I hope noble Lords will support these amendments. I beg to move.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, again this is a group of amendments with which we can thoroughly agree, which is a nice position to be in. Government Amendments 5 to 11 speak for themselves in the sense of tidying up the situation in Northern Ireland. The one amendment that is worth dwelling on a little bit is government Amendment 50, which gets to the point around resources and having sufficient resources for Companies House to be able to do what it needs to do.

There is a certain irony that, if the Companies House team is successful, there will be fewer companies on the register. So one of the things they will need to consider about fees is that they will be reducing the number of companies or the amount of income that will come per company. One of the issues in setting them is that, if estimates of 5% of companies being fraudulent are right, there will be 5% fewer companies paying the annual renewal. Some people, and some organisations, put that number much higher, so I suggest that the Government think about the success that Companies House will hopefully have in order to set a fee that does not become self-defeating if it removes companies.

The more companies the team removes from the register, the less money Companies House receives in annual renewal. That is the point I am making. I am assuming that this number will come quite soon after this Bill becomes an Act, and it would be useful for the Minister to update us on when we think the secondary legislation will come, because, clearly, Companies House and others will rely on this money for planning ahead. I am assuming the money goes to Companies House and not the Treasury, but perhaps the Minister could confirm that.

If the Minister could say a little around the operation of Amendment 50, that would be helpful—so that I understand it even if everybody else already does. He could say a little about how much money and how changeable it will be in the event that more money is needed to support the drive to remove criminality from our companies. I think that everything else is broadly very welcome.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, we agree with all the amendments in this group. This group is all government amendments which make minor changes to ensure that penalties align with previous legislation, that they are taken into account when setting fees and that penalties do not stop criminal proceedings, as the noble Lord explained introducing the amendments.

I take the point the noble Lord, Lord Fox, made about Amendment 50. I presume fees can be updated as the situation evolves regarding the number of companies on the register. Nevertheless, we support this group of amendments and look forward to the Minister’s response to the questions asked by the noble Lord, Lord Fox.

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[Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)]

My Lords, I support Amendments 16 and 17 from the noble Lord, Lord Vaux. I shall also speak to my Amendment 19.

I do not want to repeat everything that the noble Lord has said, but I received a letter from my noble friend the Minister yesterday on this subject that included the subheading, “Transparency over shareholders and nominees”, and one of the arguments that the Government are making is that this could cause a significant cost to the economy. We have just heard from the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, that that is, frankly, a fantasy; if the average number of shareholders per company is two—perhaps the Minister could confirm that, but it is certainly my instinctive understanding—then what is the cost?

In any case, that should be put against the cost to the economy of the fraud and economic crime that is happening at the moment at an increasing rate. We have endlessly reminded ourselves that 40% of all crime in this country is now economic crime. I know from my time in government that the loss to fraud in government alone each year—this is the bottom-end estimate by the NAO—is £30 billion, and a lot of that is facilitated through the holes in the Companies House structure. I urge the Minister to think hard about this because it is a great opportunity, at minimal cost to the economy or to business, to make a substantial change.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

I shall speak to Amendment 16, to which I have added my name, and I support the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, in his clear outline as to why this is an elegant solution. It is so because it would push the onus on to the supplier of the service and make them decide whether to lie or tell the truth. A lie detector, in a sense, for dishonest actors is a very good way of exposing this practice. It is not unreasonable to know who is behind a company; in fact, it is perfectly reasonable that we should.

Amendment 17 from the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, also contains an important point: at what point does the cut-off come? It will be interesting to hear what the Minister has to say about the continuum between 25% and 5%. The Government have chosen 25%, which is a very large number when you think about it. The numbers breakdown given by the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, is clear that it would not mean that a huge number of people had to be identified, even if his suggestion of 5% was adopted by the Government.

If the noble Lord chooses to move Amendment 16 then it is safe to say that we on these Benches will support it, and we will wait to hear what the Minister has to say on other matters.

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[Lord Fox (LD)]

I have nothing to add.

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I thank my noble friend Lord Leigh and the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, for their comments. It is absolutely right that we have this brief discussion about this point. Just to reaffirm, the intention of the amendment is not to suppress information or increase opacity. It is to give the opportunity to be discretionary in terms of what is published and what is not published. Section 468 of the Companies Act provides us with the power only to prescribe the format that small and micro entity accounts are received in but not to differentiate between what is received and what is included on the public register. The first point, therefore, is that it just gives flexibility, which, I think, noble Lords will agree is sensible.

The second point is that we have received a number of representations from small and micro-entities that are naturally concerned about the publishing of information that relates specifically to their own wealth. There is concern that they may be open to a higher degree of fraud and that they will receive undue commercial pressures as a result of, say, a landlord being able to see what their turnover is and so adjusting their rent upwards accordingly, and so on. The point is that I am speculating.

If noble Lords will allow me to say so, the intention of this amendment is to allow us the flexibility to consult broadly with all stakeholders—I listed clearly that these include credit lenders, enforcement agencies, small businesses, micro-entities and others—in order to work out what the right level of information is. It may be all of it, but this amendment certainly gives the Secretary of State, in some situations and for some specific cases, an opportunity not to publish this information, although it will still be retained by Companies House. That flexibility is absolutely right; it is right that this House allows the Secretary of State that level of flexibility. It is also right that this House will no doubt engage in a meaningful and useful debate on levels of transparency, but at least we now have flexibility.

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[Lord Leigh of Hurley (Con)]

Although my noble friend the Minister has described me in very flattering terms today, for which I am grateful, I will not add to the flattery, as his noble kinsman is no longer sitting next to me. I just want to add a note of caution, because it is on the record in Amendment 93 from my noble friend Lord Agnew, on the possibility of HMRC taking AML to be of equal priority to tax collecting, essentially. I declare an interest as chairman of the Finance Bill Sub-Committee of the Economic Affairs Committee that investigated R&D tax credits, which led to HMRC’s accounts being qualified given the level of uncertainty. I just want to put it on the record that we all want HMRC to focus on tax collection, with fraud focused on in other areas.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

The Minister will be blushing with the fulsome praise that he has received. I think he described it as a significant package of improvements and as major steps. The noble Lord, Lord Agnew, went further and described them as revolutionary changes. The Minister can be sure that he has hit an important nail very firmly on the head with this set of amendments. I think we all believe that this makes the Bill a much better Bill, and for that, we are very pleased.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I rise just to add our support for the amendments. I emphasise the concern that has been raised in Amendment 93 from the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, in terms of recognising the significant function that HMRC has. I listened to the noble Lord, Lord Leigh, with interest. I think there is some issue with looking at the two functions equally and making sure there is no conflict between them.

Industrial Strategy

Lord Fox Excerpts

Tuesday 20th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for his comments and his question: indeed, I will. On the specific question of investment, the Government, along with Rolls-Royce, have invested over £300 million in small modular reactors. On inward investment—again, I agree that a massive amount of inward investment is always required—we have arrangements with the UAE, bringing in £5.9 billion, and Qatar, for £10 billion. We know about the Nissan/Envision billion-pound investment up in the north and Ford has put in nearly £400 million recently as well.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, Make UK, the manufacturing organisation—it represents most of the countries’ manufacturers—issued an authoritative report on industrial strategy. Some 99% of respondents said that they believed that the UK should have an industrial strategy—which indicates that they do not think that the UK has one now. Will the Minister acknowledge that the very people who are going to deliver what he talks about have not heard what he thinks he has told them?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I understand exactly the point that is being made. Communication is critical to any successful enterprise, and there is no doubt that the change from a unified industrial strategy to one that is more targeted and focused is, at times, not the easiest message to get across. However, I believe that the five growth sectors for which the specific strategies have been written will be very effective.

Carer’s Leave Bill

Lord Fox Excerpts

Friday 19th May 2023 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Fox]

That the Bill do now pass.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, this is a very worthy Bill and one that I am glad to see through to its final reading. We know that caring can take many guises, and providing unpaid care for a family member, friend, neighbour or dependant is a reality for many millions of people across the UK and is something that almost everyone will experience either directly or indirectly through their lives.

New findings from Carers UK and the University of Sheffield released earlier this month show that unpaid carers in England and Wales now contribute a staggering £445 million to the economy of England and Wales every day—that is £162 billion per year of voluntary work and the equivalent of a second NHS in England and Wales.

At an individual level, staying in work while providing care for a relative or friend can be incredibly challenging. Latest estimates show that over 7 million people in the UK are juggling work and unpaid care and, every year, more than 1.9 million people in paid employment become unpaid carers. The stresses and strains of having to juggle paid work alongside unpaid care without the support they need has left many exhausted and burnt out, and too often it is impossible for them to manage. As a result, on average, 600 people per day have had to leave work because they need to provide care. Many others have had to reduce their hours.

Research shows that having a supportive employer and the ability to take time off work to support dependants can mitigate those pressures. That is why this Bill would create a new entitlement for employees to take up to a week of unpaid leave a year in order to provide or arrange care for a dependant with a long-term care need, and it is why it is so important. I am delighted that my Liberal Democrat colleague in the Commons, Wendy Chamberlain MP, brought forward this Private Member’s Bill with government support, for which I express my thanks.

The Bill will provide, on day one, a right to one week of unpaid leave for carers in employment, with the flexible option to take as little as half a day at a time. This will be available to all employees providing care for a dependant with a long-term care need. Carers will have the time and flexibility for their caring responsibilities and to make the required preparations for the future, such as being able to take half-days off for medical appointments. The Bill will give carers the opportunity to be able to put work to one side and focus solely, for that time, on their caring responsibilities without the added pressures of having to juggle both duties. Although the Bill does not provide carers with a paid leave right, it will nevertheless go a long way towards helping to relieve the financial burden by providing carers with the confidence of job security. It is also an important step in recognising the role of carers in the workplace.

I am pleased that the Bill will support women in particular to stay in work, as they are more likely to juggle work and care and to be a part-time, rather than a full-time, worker. Indeed, the impact assessment produced for the Bill recognises this, stating:

“In the context of the gender pay gap, the fact that women are more likely to provide care means that they are more likely to face adverse employment effects associated with caring i.e., lower earnings and leaving the labour market”.


I hope that the Bill will bring some peace of mind to all employed carers so that they can live in the certainty that their jobs are secure while they are caring for their dependants. I beg to move.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome this stage of this important Bill. I acknowledge the very rich debate we had at Second Reading, including the incredible personal testimony from so many Members on behalf of their own families and people they had met in their communities or work. As the noble Lord, Lord Fox, laid out, this is an important first step, but we need to acknowledge that there is still much more to do. I emphasise, to avoid any confusion, that this refers to unpaid leave, although many arguments have been made to move to paid leave.

We have heard very clearly that the Bill will help to relieve the stress and isolation that carers often experience—the loneliness, the impact on mental health and, as we have heard, the disproportionate impact on women. But what we also know, which is not emphasised enough, is that the Bill will benefit employers by reducing the risk of the absenteeism, turnover and retention of staff.

All that remains is to thank Wendy Chamberlain MP, the Bill’s sponsor in the other place; the noble Lord, Lord Fox, for bringing it to the Lords; and the cross-party support we have seen. I also refer to the work by Carers UK from which we have all benefited. I thank carers and their families who have shared their stories and experiences. In particular, I make special mention of my noble friend Lady Pitkeathley; she is very sorry not to be able to be here today. I thank her again for her tireless work over many years and her absolute determination to make progress on this really significant issue.

[The Minister of State, Department for Business and Trade (The Earl of Minto) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Fox, for bringing the Bill through the House. The Government have been pleased to support it throughout all its stages. This is in line with our 2019 manifesto, which committed to introduce one week of leave for unpaid carers; I am pleased to continue that support today at Third Reading. I am also very grateful for the cross-party support that the Bill has received.

The Government appreciate the time dedicated by unpaid carers to help those who rely on them for their everyday needs. No one should underestimate the contribution that unpaid carers make. They play a vital role in society, supporting those who are unable to care independently for themselves. Many provide that care while holding down a job. We know that there are some brilliant, supportive and flexible employers out there already who are taking great steps to support those in their workforce with caring responsibilities, recognising the value to both their businesses and their employees of helping carers to stay in work. The Bill will extend aspects of what those employers do voluntarily to all employers, ensuring a baseline of support for all working unpaid carers. This will help to alleviate the pressure that carers—particularly women, who are more likely to provide care—can face as they seek to juggle their work and caring responsibilities.

The new right to carer’s leave will provide more flexibility to those unpaid carers. It will enable them to take more time out of work if they need to. Carer’s leave will allow employees to be absent from work on unpaid leave to provide or arrange care for a dependant with a long-term care need. Eligible employees will be able to take the leave, regardless of how long they have worked for their employer. It will be available from the first day of their employment. The leave will be available to take in increments of half-days, up to a week, to be taken over a 12-month period. Employees will not be required to provide evidence in relation to a request for carer’s leave. Employees taking carer’s leave will have the same employment protections as associated with other forms of family-related leave, including protection from dismissal or detriment as a result of having taken the leave.

I am personally very pleased to support the Bill; it is a huge step in the right direction for our carers, who give their time to help others who need it. I once again thank the noble Lord, Lord Fox, for his sponsorship of the Bill as it has moved through the House. I also thank Wendy Chamberlain and my honourable friend Kevin Hollinrake for their stewardship in the other place and their hard work in putting the Bill forward.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his words, and, more than that, I thank him for the Government’s support for the Bill. I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, who pointed to the personal nature of the Bill and the improvements it will give to individuals across the country.

It has been an unusual experience for me to propose, rather than oppose, something, and to have the support of the House, so I thank all noble Lords for that. However, I am standing on the shoulders of giants. From my own Benches, my noble friend Lady Tyler has been a very important supporter of the needs of carers in the Bill. As the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, pointed out, the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, has been a tireless campaigner for carers, both in the House and through Carers UK. It is a great shame that neither she nor my noble friend were able to be here today, because, frankly, this is the culmination of their work rather than anything I have done.

Wendy Chamberlain did a great job in the Commons in proposing the Bill and stewarding it through. I thank Kathryn Sturgeon, her adviser, who worked very hard with us. I also thank my own adviser, Mohamed-Ali Soudi, in our Lords Whips’ Office, who has been an excellent support in getting this through. Externally, I thank Carers UK and particularly John Perryman and Emily Holzhausen, who have been great in providing briefing support. The Bill team has made sure that I have not fallen over—at least, not yet—so I thank them very much for their support. Finally, once again, I thank the Minister and his colleague, the noble Lord, Lord Johnson, who both supported the Bill going through.

Bill passed.

Car Industry

Lord Fox Excerpts

Wednesday 17th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, the Government are acutely aware of the global challenges that the UK car industry faces. We have been leveraging private investment, alongside government support, to bring EV manufacturing to UK shores. The UK remains highly attractive; our workforce is among the most productive in Europe, and we excel in R&D and innovation. The DBT Secretary of State is aware of this issue facing the automotive sector, and is raising this with her counterparts in the EU.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, on 2 March this year I asked a Question of the noble Lord, Lord Johnson, the Minister of State for the Department for Business and Trade. It was exactly on this issue. Unless the renegotiation is successful, the manufacturers of electric cars will not be able to export their vehicles to the European Union without a 22% tariff. The noble Lord mentioned Stellantis, which is one of the companies that yesterday made the point that this is very urgent. I did not get a sense of urgency from the Minister.

McKinsey estimates that between £5 billion and £18 billion will be required to deliver the domestic battery capacity we need in this country. Even if that money was available now, which it is not, and even if the plans were approved now, which they are not, there would not be a battery plant at the end of this year. Can the Minister reassure your Lordships that the Government are actually on this case, and that the urgency of this is understood, because the industry does not get that impression?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

The noble Lord makes some very good points. I assure him that the Government are absolutely on the case. We are not alone; the EU has challenges of its own.

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[Lord Fox (LD)]

It is a quid pro quo.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

It is a quid pro quo. This whole question of battery manufacture has caught a number of countries, including us, where they do not particularly want to be. The Government have invested in this country; the joint investment with the OEMs is about £1.5 billion and we have put a further £2.8 billion in. That will probably not do it, but I assure the noble Lord that we are absolutely on it.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

Virtually all vehicle manufacture is integrated throughout a number of different countries, and I can see no reason why we would not continue to follow the route that we have done in the past, and that of course involves our relationship with the EU. I know that the Secretary of State has been in close contact on this very matter.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

The Minister raised the international supply chain. I apologise if I tell him something he already knows, but the electrification of motor vehicles is a completely new industry. It is not changing a factory that currently exists; it is building a new factory. It is creating an entirely new supply chain. The reason you got urgent cries from these Benches is that unless that happens now, it will never happen. Now is the moment that it has to happen. My noble friend mentioned huge public subsidy. That is what this country has to compete against. Does the Minister understand why this is urgent?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

I certainly do, and the Government do as well. The automotive industry in this country employs well over half a million people and is fundamental to the success of the country. There is no doubt that some of the brands we have operating in this country are global, future brands, and the Government are fully behind them.