Rough Sleeping

Lord Flight Excerpts

Monday 1st April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I know that the noble Baroness has done much work in this area. Indeed, we have done some work in a related area. I know she will be pleased about the money being invested, particularly regarding women rough sleepers, which is part of this area. There are many different aspect to this; it is across the board. Obviously in MHCLG we are focusing on money specifically for the housing aspects, but she is right that we need to look at a broader front, and we are doing so.

[Lord Flight (Con)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware of a particular problem in Westminster of rough sleeping in tents? Two things arise from that. First, there is the concern that drug dealing might be going on in the tents. Secondly, although they have powers, the police are reluctant to be too aggressive in addressing the problem.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, once again, my noble friend refers to a different aspect of this. He is right that sensitive policing often helps to tackle these issues. I know that police throughout the country are very aware of that. He is also right that there is a complex range of issues, including addiction, which is very much related to rough sleeping. We are intent on trying to deal with that, as we are with other aspects. For example, a lot of people who sleep rough have come from a secure background, sometimes prison and sometimes the Armed Forces. It is a much more complex issue than just the finances, although that is an important part of it.

Tenant Fees Bill

Lord Flight Excerpts

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 11th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My Lords, first, I thank the Minister for his sympathetic and speedy response to the issues that I, along with the noble Lord, Lord Palmer of Childs Hill, with the support of the noble Lord, Lord Best, who is in his place, and the noble Lord, Lord Deben, who is not in his place at the moment, raised in Committee about how the department was implementing these otherwise very welcome plans to introduce mandatory client money protection for letting agents. It was because the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, and I had worked very well with the Minister on that initiative that we were concerned that the whole thing was going a bit pear-shaped because of the introduction of unrealistic requirements on the main providers of CMP protection. But, thanks to the Minister—I have to thank him for that—the department moved very rapidly, as it is well able to, and responded to make the significant changes that the Minister has now introduced. We both thank and congratulate the people who drafted those changes. They will, of course, help ensure that both RICS and ARLA can continue to protect both landlords and tenants through their schemes.

There was just one area on which I sought clarification, which is indicated in the amendments to which the Minister has already responded. I know that these have been discussed with RICS, ARLA and officials. I am getting nods from the Box. The government amendments introduce a power, as has been said, for the Secretary of State to serve notice on scheme administrators, requiring them to amend their scheme rules in respect of the cover they may hold. We consider this a sensible addition because it ensures that appropriate cover will be in place and, importantly, it will prevent arbitrage between the different schemes. That is something that we had not thought of but we are very grateful that officials did so.

As has been noted, our concern is with the current wording, which we did not feel gave sufficient clarity on how such a scheme, where it proved necessary, could close in an orderly manner where the Secretary of State’s justified requirements proved unworkable. The amendments I tabled were therefore to clarify that schemes may alternatively close in an orderly manner in such a scenario, rather than leaving administrators open to a lot of uncertainty. I know that the Minister appreciates those points, as we have heard. It was a backstop—if I may say that—that we were looking for: something we hoped would never be needed but should be there in case. I think the Minister has given the reassurance needed about flexibility and the use of normal other legislation to ensure that such reasons are given, and in the right way. I am getting nods from other people on that point.

Although I tabled the amendments, they were clearly only a bit of final tidying up. We are very pleased and grateful that, as a result of what we raised in Committee, it has been possible to bring this forward in such a timely manner that we can go ahead on 1 April not just, unfortunately, to leave the European Union, but, perhaps a little more importantly, to have client money protection in place.

[Lord Flight (Con)]

My Lords, I refer to my interest as a modest landlord, as declared in the register. The new rules to protect rent paid by tenants to agents do not protect landlords fully. Letting agents will have to join the new government-approved client money protection insurance scheme, but changes proposed by the Government as to the level of insurance held by these schemes will not cover the full value of rental money held by agents. I cannot see the point of that. Is it not in the interests of all parties for the insurance effectively to cover all potential liabilities? The scheme will not pay out in some circumstances; it will be able to cap the amount it pays out. Surely it would be more sensible for the scheme to provide for full protection.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, first, I thank the Minister for his incredible help and support in getting this legislation through, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, who has done a lot to make this Bill work.

I want to pick up on a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Flight, because it is one of the questions that arises from these amendments. Perhaps I may tackle it by dealing with the level of insurance required, which is what the noble Lord, Lord Flight, was talking about. The best way of looking at it is perhaps to think about what the Residential Landlords Association —the RLA—has recently said. It advises, consequent to the changes to the legislation, that to help reduce the risk, landlords should spread their properties across a number of agents so that they reduce the need to go over whatever insurance limits were agreed with each one. The RLA summed this up by saying:

“Otherwise we will encourage landlords to ensure that they do not put all their eggs in one basket and spread the risk”.


Are the Government aware of landlords spreading their risk rather than keeping it with one agent, and what will the Government’s attitude be? I believe that is the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Flight. This is a great improvement to the legislation but I would like the Minister to respond to my question.

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[Lord Flight]

My Lords, I similarly would like to speak to Amendments 42, 43 and 44, on tenancy deposits. The objective for everyone is to have a fair balance that works. I note that, at Second Reading in the Commons, the Secretary of State referred to the then proposal of six weeks as,

“a balance of greater protection to tenants while giving landlords the flexibility to accept higher-risk tenants”.—[Official Report, Commons, 21/5/18; col. 642.]

I also note that Scotland has an eight-week as opposed to a six-week arrangement.

I urge the Government to think again on this issue. Reducing the security deposit to five weeks’ rent rather than six leaves scope for unfairness to landlords. There is always the risk that, at the end of a long tenancy, the tenant will leave the property in a poor state or will have had pets. Cutting the deposit to five weeks’ rent will quite likely leave the landlord out of pocket. In turn, that will make landlords more cautious about the tenants they take on, at a time when the need for more rented accommodation is acute. This is not a huge issue, but the Government’s previous proposition of six weeks was the sensible and fair balance. I do not understand why they have moved to five weeks, and nor does the industry—having not been consulted or advised about this, it feels somewhat mistreated by the Government.

[Lord Shipley]

My Lords, if I might, I will intervene at this stage to speak to Amendment 43, which is what we are currently talking about. In the flurry of amendments not being moved, no debate took place, but the issue has now been raised by two noble Lords.

My name is attached to the amendment that refers to five weeks, and I think it is the right conclusion. I want to thank the Government for having agreed a change from six weeks to five. At Second Reading and in Committee, we went through every option: from the Scottish model of eight weeks to my probing amendment proposal of four weeks. As I recall, the Government at that stage said the figure would be between the four weeks we requested and the eight weeks that apply in Scotland.

There is a lot of money at stake here for tenants. Having heard from the perspective of landlords, I would like to speak on behalf of tenants. For a large number of poorer people, a change from five to six weeks could make finding that level of deposit a strain. Anything that can be done to minimise that strain is a good thing. The figure was described as being “up to” six weeks, but the fact that it is now five weeks will be of benefit to a large number of tenants. Because it covers the difficulty that, in some months, four weeks may not be a month and many people operate tenancy agreements on a monthly not weekly basis, it is legitimate for the Government to propose that we go to five weeks. I want to express our support for the Government’s decision.

Public Parks: Funding

Lord Flight Excerpts

Monday 30th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Baroness raises an interesting point, specifically on courts and pitches. I will ensure that she gets a response to her question, but it goes beyond today’s narrow Question on support.

[Lord Flight (Con)]

Right next door to this House, Victoria Tower Gardens—a beautiful piece of parkland—is threatened with being overrun by the Holocaust memorial. The Holocaust memorial is a great cause and very worthy, but it must be more sensible for it to be sited at the Imperial War Museum, which desperately wants it. Otherwise, we will lose a rare piece of parkland, slap bang in the middle of London.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, noble Lords around the House will have differing views on this. First, we are not losing parkland but gaining an important monument in central London, which I think is central to the thoughts of all parties and people in the country. I am sure that there will be ample opportunity to discuss this, but I am also sure that the House will want to welcome the winning design and be behind this important national monument.

Electricity Supply: Decarbonisation

Lord Flight Excerpts

Monday 15th June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I thank the noble Baroness for her comments and belatedly offer birthday congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord Whitty; I have not had an invitation to drinks as yet, but no doubt that is in the post. On the noble Baroness’s comments on decarbonisation of the electricity sector, we are convinced that the best way forward is the path we are currently set on. We are delivering through a combination of environmental policies, the ageing coal fleet and support mechanisms for renewables, and that remains the case.

[Lord Flight (Con)]

My Lords, what are the Minister’s views about the commercial viability of Hinkley Point? The increases in costs since the project was first envisaged have been very large indeed; might there not conceivably be cheaper ways of producing nuclear power on a smaller scale?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, as I have already said, it is vital that we deliver on the nuclear agenda, and Hinkley C is part of that agenda. We are convinced that the price mechanisms will deliver that, and thereafter the other reactors that are queued up, such as Sizewell. Obviously, we remain open to looking at other nuclear technology, but at the moment the aim is to ensure that we, together with EDF, deliver on Hinkley Point C.

David Livingstone Bicentenary

Lord Flight Excerpts

Monday 23rd July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I am not sure about a statue, but the noble Lord makes an important point. It is perhaps worthy of note that in post-colonial times, place names such as Blantyre in Malawi and Livingstone in Zambia have remained while other pre-independence names have been changed. That is a reflection of the esteem in which David Livingstone is held. Some of the themes that he focused on in his life—themes such as faith, education, medicine, the abolition of the slave trade and standing up for those who are exploited—are ones that we would do well to ponder. Maybe the best memorial that we can give him on the bicentenary of his birth is to take seriously the kind of issues that he took seriously in his lifetime.

[Lord Flight]

My Lords, I am proud of this country’s history, warts and all. However, does the Minister agree that Dr Livingstone is a great model for the sort of person that this country needs today—a hero who is also a righteous person? That is why celebrating his birth is so important.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I am glad that there seems to be such consensus across the Chamber on this. I reiterate the point that there are many positive aspects to the life, career and work of David Livingstone. I think that his bicentenary will give us all an opportunity across the United Kingdom—and, indeed, in Africa too—to reflect on these issues and to take from them what is really good, and to build on them.

Scotland Bill

Lord Flight Excerpts

Monday 26th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stephen]

As I understand it, there would be no effect on the Barnett formula, so the £85 million per year currently spent on the English, Welsh and Northern Ireland students to attend universities in Scotland would become available to the Scottish Government as those funding arrangements changed. The noble Lord, Lord Sewel, looks incredulous at that, but that is my understanding.

To finish, different policies for different parts of the UK so that different people, including students, can be treated differently sounds to me pretty much what decentralising power, devolution, is all about. It is surely the responsibility of those elected to the Scottish Parliament to introduce new ideas and new policies. What we found deeply uncomfortable was the notion that you could discriminate within a member state but not between member states. That seems nonsense, but I know of no other way to tackle it based on the legal advice and the pragmatic solution that we have chosen. Let us be honest, this is hardly a burning issue of major importance in the reaction of students and families across the UK, because we still have ready access through our pragmatic solutions for English, Welsh and Northern Ireland students to universities in Scotland and we continue to have Scots attending universities outside Scotland.

[Lord Flight]

Does the noble Lord agree that among those English students who are at Scottish universities and who are having to borrow money and build up their loans, there is quite a degree of resentment that their Scottish friends do not have that burden? To argue that this has no impact is candidly wrong.

[Lord Stephen]

I would argue very strongly that the difference is based on the different policy approaches that the UK Government and the Scottish Government have introduced to the funding of students and tuition fees. I repeat: I do not see that an English, Welsh or Northern Ireland student studying in Scotland is in a different position from that same student studying in their home country. To that extent, they are treated broadly equally.

I would much prefer that we had no tuition fees in universities across the UK, but, in conclusion, I am very pleased that there continue to be no tuition fees for Scottish students in Scotland.

Scotland Bill

Lord Flight Excerpts

Thursday 2nd February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

It is not a ridiculous argument at all, because it is very difficult if you are a student coming from Greece, where English might not necessarily be the language in which you would more readily study. It is far simpler if you are coming from Carlisle to go to Edinburgh than it would be to go to Birmingham. I can assure my noble friend that when tuition fees were increased in England and variable fees were brought in, in around 2004, there was clear evidence—which I was presented with as the then Minister with responsibility for higher and further education—that that would have a considerable impact on cross-border flow, and that was something that we had to address. Indeed, we did address it.

[Lord Flight]

I point out to the Minister that Ireland charges extremely low tuition fees at universities. This has not led to a huge increase in the number of British students going to Irish universities.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

The point I was making was that there was clear evidence, which we were looking at in about 2003 or 2004, in an overall review we did of higher education at that time in Scotland, that a differential where Scotland was much cheaper than England, Wales or Northern Ireland would have a considerable impact. I totally subscribe to what noble Lords have said in this debate—that the essence of many of our universities, the advantage of them and the thing that gives richness to student life, is the fact that you are shoulder to shoulder with people from many different backgrounds, nationalities and cultures. I subscribe to that overwhelmingly. But it is naive in the extreme to think that, if university tuition in Scotland was free for students from England, it would not have some quite material effect on the numbers applying.

Estates of Deceased Persons (Forfeiture Rule and Law of Succession) Bill

Lord Flight Excerpts

Wednesday 15th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Richard]

I have two things to say very briefly about this. On Second Reading, I think I made it clear that I did not approve of Clause 18. I did not think that it was needed, as it seemed to me purely declaratory. It did not add anything or take anything away from the law; it was a statement of what the law was—and it is perfectly clear that we all knew what the law was, and we all know what it is. So I was a little surprised to see the terms of the amendment proposed by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern. If we have to have a declaratory clause of this sort on this issue, I would vastly prefer his drafting than the original government drafting, but I accept and would vote for the amendment with some considerable reluctance. In my limited experience of declaratory clauses, which is not as great as that of the noble and learned Lord, on the whole clauses that are meant to clarify the law very frequently have precisely the opposite effect. I am doubtful about it and do not like it, but in the end I will support it.

[Lord Flight]

My Lords, I rise with some trepidation, as I am not a lawyer. I have not been entirely satisfied by the arguments that have been put forward by both the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, and other eminent lawyers in the House that we can rely entirely on the 1972 Act and the fact that apparently subsequent legislation depends on the definitions in that Act, to the effect that the 1972 Act covers all relevant legislation.

The noble and learned Lord made the point that there was very little difference between his position and that of the Government in this territory, so I wonder what is wrong with taking a belt and braces approach to this matter. If I understand the position, there are other sources in relation to subsequent Acts that are as drafted not wholly dependent on the 1972 Act, and EU law can be given legal effect in the UK by secondary delegated legislation and not just by primary legislation.

[Lord Lester of Herne Hill]

I realise the noble Lord is not a lawyer and what I am about to say may seem unfair, but the answer to what is wrong with his suggestion is that the Court of Appeal and the House of Lords in the cases of Macarthys v Smith and Factortame have made the legal position perfectly plain. That is why the noble Lord, Lord Richard, is right in saying that we do not need Clause 18, but if we are going to have it we may as well have it stating the law as declared by our judges.

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[Lord Flight]

I should probably defer to the noble Lord, but I do not think that was a full answer to my mind to the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, or to the whole issue of judges subsequently choosing to interpret the position with regard to the martyrs’ case. It seems perfectly possible in theory that there may be a House of Lords judgment which is perfectly valid and accepted at the time it is given, but subsequently manages to get twisted by the interpretation of particular judgments by noble Lords. I come back to the rather straightforward point, which is that from the point of view of those who wish to have this territory absolutely nailed, what is wrong with a belt and braces approach?

[Lord Deben]

I would not like it to be thought by your Lordships that those who were not lawyers disagreed with the lawyers. As a non-lawyer, it seems to me to be very clear that there is a good reason why we should not have the additional parts: it is misleading to have them. It suggests that the additional parts have the same validity and strength as the central issue of the 1972 Act. I would account it as the proudest moment of my parliamentary history when I voted for that Act—it was the moment when we achieved the thing that in all my young life I longed to achieve, which was the beginning of closer European unity, for which I have always stood. I do not want that Act to be removed from its pedestal place. It is the Act that says, very clearly, that the United Kingdom is a sovereign state, and from its sovereignty it grants this particular place for European legislation. Should at some future time a Government, in foolishness almost unimaginable, decide that they did not wish to continue with that Act this sovereign Parliament could, by repealing that Act, change the circumstances—and change them of its own strength, volition and powers.

This is a declaratory statement. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Richard, that it is not necessary but given that it has been raised, it becomes necessary. Now that it is necessary it is crucial that it should be extremely clear. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, has given a great opportunity to this House to unite around something which should not divide those on either side of the European divide, or indeed those in the general mishmash in the middle. The worry which I have—this is why I have become less happy in the mean time—is the question which the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, raised earlier: if the Government do not accept this as a reasonable matter, what is it that is hidden in that alternative? For this must be right and if it is not, the rest is wrong.

I shall say one thing to the noble Lord, Lord Waddington. If his worry is a real one, he is worried by either of the statements before us. If his worry is a real one and the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, got it wrong, the fact is that he would be wrong about the Government’s formulation as well. Although I therefore have sympathy with the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, he cannot defeat his problem by preferring the one against the other. To defeat his problem, he would have to initiate some extra bit to the Act to make it clear. I do not believe that is necessary but his intervention, although admirable, is really not about the division between these two formulations, so I pray that your Lordships’ House will support the amendment.

However, I would like it even more if the Government were to say that they thought, on balance, it would be better to go with what is clearly a widely held feeling in all parts of the House and with those who are in favour and those who are against our membership of the European Union.

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[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, as I said on Second Reading, I think that this Bill is a “thus far and no further” Bill, and therefore it is to be welcomed. However, it is also a “shutting the stable door” Bill, because the European Union already has all the powers it needs to continue down its very unfortunate path towards complete integration, in the teeth of the growing opposition of the people of Europe.

[Lord Flight]

May I suggest to the noble Lord that perhaps the reason why the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, opposes the Bill is that it represents a potential barrier on the movement towards complete European integration which is his objective?

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

I am very grateful to the noble Lord—my noble friend, if I may refer to him as such—for pointing that out, and he pointed it out much better than I did. That is true: the movers of this amendment and the people who oppose this Bill do actually want an integrated superstate of Europe run entirely by the political class, having destroyed the democracies of Europe—which was always the big idea behind the project.

The movers of this amendment and those who will support it are attempting to swim against the tide of opinion here and in Europe. That tide in the end will prove irresistible, so I oppose this attempt to do so.