General Election Television Debates

Debate between Lord Dodds of Duncairn and Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick

Wednesday 11th March 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Dodds]

The hon. Gentleman is right. That is certainly part of the debate that should happen, but it should happen well in advance—not in the heat of a general election and not in the run-up to the election when so many vested interests are at stake. As we have discovered, people who were previously enthusiastic have become less enthusiastic, depending on their particular vested interest. Likewise, others who were not so keen have suddenly become very keen indeed.

[Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)]

The right hon. Gentleman is making a compelling argument. Does he agree that the wider body politic and all our constituents right across the community would like to see us debating the substance of the issues that impact on them on a day-to-day basis, on which the general election will be decided?

[Mr Dodds]

The hon. Lady is absolutely right, which is why it is important to have a debate about ensuring that that happens. As things stand, it looks likely that the public, who watched the debates in considerable numbers last time, will be denied the opportunity to hear the contributions from the various party leaders who could form the Government. The public would be very interested to hear about the priorities for the smaller parties that could play a significant role one way or the other—what is their general outlook and how would they see things shaping up? I agree entirely with the hon. Lady.

As I have said, at this time no one has any idea what debates, if any, are going to occur. The broadcasters can say what they like about being determined to proceed and can make threats of empty-chairing, but there is no consensus at all about whether these debates are going to occur.

I want to make it very clear to the House and people beyond it that Northern Ireland Members will certainly not tamely accept any attempt to pick and choose the parties to the detriment of Northern Ireland. We are part of the United Kingdom; we play a very significant role in the House. The Democratic Unionist party has eight MPs, but there are other Northern Ireland Members from other parties, and indeed no party, who play a role here, too. They deserve to have their voice heard on behalf of the people they represent. They should not be excluded, especially in a context where the Democratic Unionist party could play a much more significant role on 8 May than some of the parties that are going to be included in the debates. People across the United Kingdom need to know where we stand on the national issues.

Warm Home Discount Scheme (Northern Ireland)

Debate between Lord Dodds of Duncairn and Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick

Monday 2nd March 2015 Commons Chamber

[Ms Ritchie]

I may be able to explain that later in my speech, but suffice it to say that Northern Ireland is the only region to which the scheme does not extend and in which there are particular market conditions. Our climatic conditions are probably similar to those in Scotland, and we have similar levels of fuel poverty, but the war home discount scheme extends to Scotland and not to Northern Ireland.

I understand from Age Sector Platform that the scheme could be administered centrally by the United Kingdom, and that the costing could be executed by the utility companies. In fact, one of the utility companies that operate in Britain, SSE, also operates in Northern Ireland, through its agent Airtricity. I imagine that if the Minister approached the Northern Ireland Executive and, in particular, the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment, as well as the utility regulator and the other utility companies, a resolution might be found.

In Northern Ireland, the problem of cold and damp is exacerbated by the fact that people have no access to the warm home discount scheme. The scheme was introduced in April 2011 by regulations made under section 9 of the Energy Act 2010. It provides a £140 rebate on household energy bills for eligible groups, namely pensioners receiving guarantee credit, who are known as the core group, and other low-income households, who are known as the broader group. Some further payments were made on the basis of other criteria.

More than 2 million low-income and vulnerable households in England, Scotland and Wales have been helped each year, and total payments were expected to reach £1.1 billion by March 2015. The Department for Work and Pensions estimates that approximately four out of every five households claim this entitlement. While it is obviously desirable to maximise the figure and promote better awareness of the scheme here, it is worth repeating yet again that no one in Northern Ireland has access to it. The hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) made that point a few moments ago.

The scheme is administered by Ofgem. The Department for Work and Pensions has a monitoring role, and the administration costs are carried by the UK Government. Could the arrangement not simply be transferred to Northern Ireland, with the administration being carried out centrally here in Britain? It is financed by levying around £11 per annum on consumers, and Age Sector Platform has estimated that Northern Ireland could be covered by the scheme with the addition of just £1 per customer per year. This scheme was designed specifically, in the words of the Department of Energy and Climate Change,

“to reduce fuel poverty in the UK”,

with no mention of excluding Northern Ireland, and indeed has been set up with a mechanism to ensure that no supplier is left footing a disproportionate burden owing to the uneven spread of fuel poverty across the UK. Surely the north of Ireland should not be excluded from this.

While the Minister in response to written questions has maintained that fuel poverty is a fully devolved matter, in DECC’S own fuel poverty statistics guide it is described only as a partially devolved matter and it is acknowledged that devolved Administrations do not have the capacity to

“affect certain aspects of fuel poverty policies”,

such as incomes and market conditions. Fellow Members representing Northern Ireland constituencies who are present tonight will recall that we met Age Sector Platform in this building on 4 November and it referred to that specific point. We were under the illusion—including me, a former Minister for Social Development—that it was a totally devolved matter, but that document from DECC clearly shows that it is only partially devolved and therefore the UK Government centrally do have a responsibility in this matter. It is on that point that I and other Members representing Northern Ireland constituencies are seeking answers.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

I congratulate the hon. Lady on securing this important debate. I agree entirely with what she is saying and she is right to highlight these matters to the United Kingdom Government. I ask that she and the House be assured that there is consensus among all the parties in Northern Ireland and the Members here on this issue, and we will continue to work together both here and at home with our Executive colleagues to try to bring about an answer and a solution for the people affected by fuel poverty in Northern Ireland.

[Ms Ritchie]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that helpful intervention. He is absolutely right: there is cross-party consensus on this issue in Northern Ireland and we want to continue working during this debate, and particularly after it, to ensure that a solution can be found that mitigates the impact of fuel poverty on some of the most hard-to-reach households in both urban and rural communities.

There is consensus on this issue across the parties in Northern Ireland. That point was reiterated at the meeting with Age Sector Platform on 4 November in this House. It intends to hold a cross-party Parliament meeting for older people shortly, and before the election; I have just got word of that today.

Age Sector Platform has also submitted a strong response to November’s consultation, advocating our inclusion in the scheme. It has also suggested that as Power NI, one of the utility companies in Northern Ireland, meets the threshold for mandatory involvement in the scheme in the UK, with 250,000 domestic customers, it should be included, along with Airtricity, which is a subsidiary of SSE, which is already involved in Britain. I would be most grateful for an updated assessment of this situation from the Minister.

I am aware that the Minister of State’s response to written questions on this issue has been that fuel poverty is a devolved matter, and obviously I am aware that Ireland has a separate energy market with different providers. However, as I have said, there has been an acknowledgment and awareness from the Department that we face the same problems with fuel poverty, but do not have the same toolset to deal with them. Surely there is a role for the UK Government in providing, or at least enabling or facilitating, the scheme in Northern Ireland.

The Minister’s answers on this question have so far been fairly blunt, but will she commit this evening to taking a more positive and perhaps more nuanced view of the issue? Will she work with the Northern Ireland Executive whenever possible to explore the options to extend the scheme, or a comparable variant of it, to Northern Ireland? I am calling on her to do the right thing and to work with the Executive at Stormont to protect the elderly and disabled members of our population and some of the most vulnerable families in hard-to-reach communities.

We are also looking for an extension beyond April 2015 of the landlords’ energy-saving allowance, which would help to further mitigate fuel poverty in the private rented sector. I am calling on the Minister to do the right thing this evening. If the warm home discount scheme is extended, pensioners and other elderly people in Northern Ireland will be spared freezing in their homes next winter.

Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill

Debate between Lord Dodds of Duncairn and Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick

Wednesday 12th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)]

My colleagues and I are comfortable with Lords amendments 1 to 3, which we think are sensible, so we will not oppose them. Any reduction in the size of the Northern Ireland Assembly should quite rightly be a decision for that Assembly. As an MP who no longer sits in the Assembly, like some of my Northern Ireland colleagues sitting behind me, I agree that any reduction in its size should be voted on by the Assembly, rather than imposed from here.

Although my party agrees that there is a case for reducing the number of Members of the Legislative Assembly at some stage, any discussion of that must take into account the sensitive local considerations. Such a move might be inadvisable at the current time. We firmly believe that any change to the Assembly’s composition must be guided by the principles that it should be representative, proportionate and reflective of both traditions in the wider community.

As Baroness O’Loan said in the other place, reducing the number of MLAs returned to each constituency could have serious consequences for representation in Northern Ireland. We must always be careful not to leave certain areas unbalanced or unrepresentative. We have a clear interest in retaining plurality of representation and must pay keen attention to factors that are specific to Northern Ireland when making these decisions.

We have also made it clear that we are concerned about the increasing concentration of power in the hands of two parties. We would be cautious about any measure that might exacerbate that situation. For that reason, we support the measure to ensure that the Secretary of State requires a cross-community vote in the Assembly before any legislation to reduce its size can be passed. That cross-community element is embedded in the Good Friday agreement of 1998 and the consequential Northern Ireland Act, which was passed in July that year. Embedded in that Act were the principles of proportionality, mutual respect and understanding. Given the unique circumstances in Northern Ireland, and given that we do not wish to exacerbate the situation, we feel it would be better if those principles were embedded in the size of the Assembly. I am therefore happy, on behalf of my colleagues, to support the amendment.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

Our party strongly supports reducing the size of government generally in Northern Ireland—and across the United Kingdom for that matter—including the number of Government Departments in Northern Ireland. We are also on record as wanting to see a reduction in the number of Assembly Members. We believe that Northern Ireland can function more efficiently and in a leaner and better way with fewer politicians for the size of its population.

In May there will be elections to new councils in Northern Ireland, the number of which will have been dramatically reduced from the present number, and the number of councillors will also be reduced. We are in favour of the general thrust to reduce the size of government, and we have already put proposals to the Assembly’s Assembly and Executive Review Committee on that issue.

When the Minister responds to the debate, will he comment on the consultation that took place with the Assembly parties on the amendment? Although, under the amendment, the decision to reduce the number of MLAs can be taken by the Assembly, it can reduce the number by only one for each constituency—from six to five. I would certainly be very interested to know to what extent the Government consulted on that provision with the Assembly parties, because it has been generally understood that the measures that would come before the House would have the broad consensus of parties in Northern Ireland.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Dodds]

I do not know whether the hon. Lady will seek to catch your eye, Madam Deputy Speaker, but she makes a good point. I look forward to the Minister responding to it. As she says, the amendment mentions “internationally accepted principles” and their application vis-à-vis national human rights bodies. Her point is valid. The amendment says that not only the independence of the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission is a matter for the report, but the relationship between the commission and the Assembly.

Given that the clause is a small provision—it simply provides an enabling power, which the Order in Council will implement—on what basis will the report be compiled? Will there be an investigation? Will there be an Assembly inquiry, with evidence being taken on how the measures operate? If it were devolved, it would be a matter for the Assembly, so what would be the purpose of reassuring ourselves in this House and in the other place about all these matters three months prior to a debate?

[Ms Ritchie]

I support the amendments and I understand the points that have been raised by the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) on their reasoning and the rationale behind them. In relation to the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission and the civil service commissioners, the amendments are sensible. It is right that before any discussion of the future devolution of these elements, proper consideration is given to the impact on the impartiality of the civil service.

I well recall the considerable discussions in 1988 and 1989 in this House and the other place on the advances to be made on ensuring there is respect for people in workplaces and on fair employment. References were made then to the need to respect the merit principle in private sector organisations above a certain level of employee. Comments were also made about the Northern Ireland civil service and the need for impartiality, fairness and due participation across the community if we were to build a society that was reflective of and proportionate to the wider Northern Ireland. I see the amendments in that context.

It is important that any report on the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission pays regard to the importance of its independence in conforming to internationally recognised standards and maintaining a balanced relationship with the Assembly. In that respect, I regret that the Government have not seen fit to introduce a Bill of Rights in Northern Ireland. There has been considerable discussion and indeed, some months ago, the hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long) sponsored the visit of the Northern Ireland Human Rights Consortium to discuss the need for such a Bill—and the impetus within the wider community for it—that would enshrine the rights of all in legislation. Such a Bill is still urgently needed. It cannot be covered by a UK Bill of Rights. There are rights that are peculiar to Northern Ireland, which has a particular political situation that needs to be recognised. I regret the fact that the Government did not see fit to introduce a Bill of Rights that could have run concurrently with the Bill through both Houses. I ask the Minister to reflect on that issue when he sums up, to talk to his colleagues in government, and to ensure that such legislation is introduced.

I know what the Minister’s response will be. He will say that such a Bill would need the support of all parties in Northern Ireland, but I can tell him that the idea has received considerable support among the wider community in Northern Ireland, with considerable impetus behind a Good Friday agreement based on the principle of consensus and agreement. I think he would also find such support here. I hope that the Minister will reflect on the need for a Bill of Rights.

This is our last opportunity to discuss a Bill which, although short, is important to Northern Ireland. I have only one regret. During the Bill’s earlier stages, we were concerned about the lack of transparency surrounding the issue of an increase in the Assembly’s mandate from four to five years. On Second Reading I described the issue as a mystery, because it was never resolved. I would not like to think that that was part of a secret deal between two principal parties in the Northern Ireland Executive and the British Government. Yet again, I ask the Minister to clarify that issue.

Other issues relating to Haass have been raised during the Bill’s passage. My hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) raised the issue of the Historical Enquiries Team, and asked how there could be more coherence in inquiries so that patterns and trends that emerged could be dealt with. In that connection, a book called “Lethal Allies”, about the Glenanne gang, was published recently. A pattern emerged in the type of activity involved in murders of that kind. We felt that those issues could have been reflected in the Bill.

All of us who represent Northern Ireland constituencies and take our seats here want a just and lasting settlement for everyone which is based on our moving on. It is interesting to note that Richard Haass, who spent six months in Northern Ireland drawing up proposals on reconciliation, on the past, and on flags and emblems, said today in a United States congressional committee that he wanted Northern Ireland to move on. He has expressed his fear that it could slip back into the violence of its troubled past if we, as politicians, do not grasp the opportunity to deal with divisive issues. I believe that that opportunity exists now, and that we should move forward.

I believe that there should be no more secret deals, no more on-the-run letters, and no more get-out-of jail passes, as I think they were termed by the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds). We must move forward on the basis of transparency, openness, fairness, equality and proportionality for all. The amendments will take us a step further towards fair representation, and a consensual approach to politics and to dealing with issues that still need to be addressed in Northern Ireland.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Dodds]

rose—

[Ms Ritchie]

rose—

[Mr Robathan]

I will give way to the right hon. Gentleman first.

Tourism (VAT)

Debate between Lord Dodds of Duncairn and Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick

Tuesday 11th February 2014 Westminster Hall

[Ms Ritchie]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his helpful intervention, and I completely agree with him. In our nearest neighbour, the Republic of Ireland, VAT on tourism products is now 9%. Even in the difficult economic climate that the Republic has experienced—it has just come out of the bail-out situation—the VAT rate reduction has underpinned businesses in the tourism sector and encouraged new ones to emerge.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

I, too, commend the hon. Lady and her colleagues on securing this important debate. To be parochial for a moment, in Northern Ireland the problem is our land frontier with the Irish Republic where, as she has just mentioned, there is a lower rate of VAT. Is that not a particular issue for the Province, given people’s propensity simply to go south to enjoy better VAT rates?

[Ms Ritchie]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his very helpful intervention. I absolutely agree with him. My constituency borders County Louth in the Republic of Ireland. Many people come to the island of Ireland via Dublin airport, where there will be a zero rate of air passenger duty from April this year. The lower VAT rate on tourism products encourages many of them to use their purchasing power on accommodation and restaurants in the Republic of Ireland, rather than travelling north, where they would have an opportunity to invest in our local economy.

As a labour-intensive industry, the tourism sector is a leading employer. In particular, it offers younger people entry-level jobs at the start of their careers, and more than 44% of people employed in the sector are less than 30 years old. We face a youth unemployment crisis, with more than one in four young people out of work, and the Government’s lack of support for the tourism sector is clearly impairing job creation. A cut in the rate of VAT would create demand, which would spur job creation and go some way towards reducing youth unemployment. In Ireland, the VAT cut for tourism has produced an extra 10,000 jobs in just over a year. A prominent report on the subject published by Deloitte produced evidence that a similar tourist VAT cut in the UK would create some 80,000 jobs.

Cyber-bullying

Debate between Lord Dodds of Duncairn and Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick

Tuesday 3rd December 2013 Commons Chamber

[Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)]

It is a pleasure to follow the thoughtful, reflective contribution of the hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton), and I commend the hon. Member for Upper Bann (David Simpson) and his party for tabling this motion on the very important topic of cyber-bullying. As the Minister said, there is no doubt that cyber-bullying is perpetrated with a large degree of anonymity and distance, which makes it particularly insidious and frightening for children. In many instances it has led to truancy from school, self-harm, suicide and many other issues. We all know that cyber-bullying can be done in many situations, and people who commit it say things on the internet, Twitter and Facebook that they would not say to someone face to face. When someone reads such a comment about themselves on the internet, Facebook or Twitter, it can be particularly intimidating. In fact, people have even been purged as a result, so it is important to reflect on that.

Cyber-bullying and legislation throw up various definitional issues. Cyber-bullying is defined as:

“when the Internet, cell phones or other devices are used to send or post text or images intended to hurt or embarrass another person”.

However, legislative difficulties arise in defining the difference between cyber-bullying and cyber-stalking, and in defining each of those concepts. That brings us into the arena of cyber-defamation law. Cyber-bullying has proved difficult to legislate on because of freedom of speech issues. Absurdly, many people argue that such legislation violates the bully’s freedom of speech. I find it unacceptable that a bully should feel that he is being prevented from saying something. However, this all comes back to the fact that such bullying is anonymous and from a distance, and that it can cause people to take certain actions, in a mistaken belief, to try to protect themselves. The hon. Member for Upper Bann is right to say that serious consideration has to be given to the legislative consequences of cyber-bullying, because at the moment, as the hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham said, cyber-bullying has had little consequences. In Northern Ireland, a review of sentencing is taking place and reference must be made to cyber-bullying in that. We must also have the primary legislation here and in the devolved institutions to deal with this issue.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

Does the hon. Lady share my concern that the law in Northern Ireland does not require schools even to mention cyber-bullying in their anti-bullying policies? The local Minister for Education needs to get on with it.

[Ms Ritchie]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I absolutely agree that more urgent, robust and assertive action needs to be taken to deal with this issue. I believe that there is not one family of a Member in this House who have not been bullied, either face to face or by cyber-bullying, which is much more insidious.

The statistics are interesting. Ofcom found this year that some 43% of five to 15-year-olds have a social networking profile. Ofcom has also found that 81% of teenagers own a smartphone, with 60% of teenagers claiming that they are highly addicted to smartphone usage. This year, it also found that children and young people are now spending 17 hours a week online, although I would judge that the real figure is much higher. To see that, one has only to witness the use of this technology by children, be it on the school bus, in school or in a family or other environment.

This debate is all about what we do to deal with the problem and what political action is required. Like my colleagues in the DUP, I believe that the British Government and the devolved institutions have to give serious consideration to legislative consequences and to legislation itself. Until the Government here and the devolved institutions take it seriously, people who are dedicated to this form of bullying will get away with it.

I have no doubt that there needs to be lobbying for sustained nationwide campaigns similar to those for road safety, including TV advertisements, radio broadcasts and adverts, and video. An onus and obligation should be placed on the provision of funding and sponsorship from the big players such as the search engines, including Google, the social media platforms, such as Twitter, and mobile phone companies, such as O₂, Orange and Vodafone. An action plan must be put in place to deliver awareness talks to parents, community and church leaders, educators, young people and children about this vice, which is a form of cyber-terrorism.

The hon. Member for Upper Bann referred to the work being done in the Republic of Ireland and how it is approaching legislation. The British and Irish Governments, along with the devolved institutions and the Governments of the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man, are part of the British-Irish Council. I urge the British-Irish Council to give immediate attention to this issue of cyber-bullying, because the Council would be a good context in which it could be discussed and in which Governments and devolved institutions could consider the matter and take positive legislative action.

The other area I wish to discuss is that relating to Children’s Commissioners. We have one in Northern Ireland, one in the other devolved institutions and one here in Britain. An immediate conference should be held at which they could reflect on this subject, because they have a dedicated responsibility for children, in order to see what can be done. [Interruption.] I am conscious of the time, Madam Deputy Speaker. As of 20 November, Canada introduced legislation covering matters such as distribution, removal, forfeiting the device, reimbursement to victims, court orders and investigative powers. We should be examining that strong Canadian legislation to see where we could take action.

In supporting this motion, I suggest that tackling these issues and the gaps in education and awareness are paramount, as is legislation. Cyber-bullying will continue to have a profound effect on our young people’s lives and on our future society. Parents feel largely helpless in this matter, and the debate today should be a warning to the Government that we all want to see action of a legislative kind to tackle this form of terrorism as it is so insidious in our wider communities today.

Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill

Debate between Lord Dodds of Duncairn and Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick

Monday 18th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Dodds]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. Castlederg was very much in the news this summer. We all need to be very sensitive in dealing with the past, but a party whose Members do not take their seats in this House, Sinn Fein, organised a celebratory parade through Castlederg, at which the speaker was Gerry Kelly, a leading Sinn Fein Member of the Northern Ireland Assembly. That was seen as deeply hurtful by relatives who lost loved ones in Castlederg.

Yet we are lectured about the need to move forward. We do need to move forward in Northern Ireland, but everybody needs to move forward. Republicans and Sinn Fein—and, indeed, loyalists—cannot have it both ways: they cannot say that they are willing to move forward, but then eulogise the terrorist activities in which they engaged in the past. They cannot make a false distinction between the sordid activities of so-called dissidents today, which they say are intolerable and unacceptable, and exactly the same behaviour 30, 20 or 10 years ago, which they say was perfectly acceptable because it was by the Provisional IRA. It was all unacceptable and totally needless: it was all about inflicting pain and suffering on innocent people.

I understand what the hon. Member for Foyle is seeking to do through new clause 3, but I have concerns about the overall impression left by laying reports before Parliament. Paragraphs (c) and (d) of subsection (4) mention

“apologies that have been given by any Government or public body”.

The only reference to apologies is therefore in relation to Governments or public bodies. I understand what the hon. Gentleman has said, but that points up the difficulty here, because the clear impression that would go out is that nobody is laying reports of apologies for the 1,700 deaths by the Provisional IRA and the hundreds by loyalist paramilitaries. They would not get the same kind of attention or concentration. That issue is very live and raw in Northern Ireland today, and it needs to be addressed.

The proposals therefore have some merits in some respects, but they are flawed for the reasons that I have set out. They should be fed into the Haass process, but the House should not take them forward tonight.

[Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)]

I rise to make a short contribution in support of the new clauses tabled by me and my hon. Friends the Members for Foyle (Mark Durkan) and for Belfast South (Dr McDonnell).

We want to bring some clarity to the issue of victims and the past. There are various issues that relate to the troubles, as they are euphemistically called, which took place over 30-odd years in Northern Ireland and during which many people right across the community lost their lives. The SDLP wants to underscore the fact that murder was wrong and that those who perpetrated it were wrong to do so and were culpable in doing so. There are issues with the past that relate to victims, flags and emblems. All those matters are rightly being addressed by Richard Haass in the current talks process, which is due to be completed by the end of December. We look forward to those findings.

It is opportune that my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle has tabled the new clauses and particularly new clause 1, which relates to patterns and lessons from reports on aspects of the past. One of the critical cases happened in my constituency. I do not highlight it because six men were murdered by loyalists, but simply to illustrate a point. A police inquiry was carried out by the RUC in which the families were not really involved. They were never really asked for their opinions or asked about what happened on that night. They were always searching for the truth. There was a police ombudsman’s report into the police investigation. Both were found wanting. The police ombudsman’s report was contested because it suggested that what happened was tantamount to collusion, but it did not say that.

That report required there to be a further police investigation, which is still ongoing. The police are fact checking what they have put in their voluminous report. The senior police officers who have undertaken the investigation have told me that forensics show that some of the weapons that were used on the night of 18 June 1994 were used in other incidents in which people were killed at around the same time, which was a couple of months before both ceasefires were announced. They cannot provide their comprehensive report into Loughinisland because it relates directly to other deaths, murders, bombings and incidents.

Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill

Debate between Lord Dodds of Duncairn and Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick

Tuesday 9th July 2013 Commons Chamber

[Ms Ritchie]

That was a useful intervention, because it illustrated the role of Members of the House of Lords. While they have clear legislative responsibilities, they also do very in-depth work. We can cast our minds back to the work done in respect of the Welfare Reform Bill, and its ping-pong nature, with the Bill going back and forth between us. Lords come from many varied backgrounds, but they do their work. The Lords may not be elected, but they do have legislative responsibilities, which naturally would clash with the responsibilities of an elected Chamber such as the Northern Ireland Assembly. That is the very problem that this measure is meant to address. I would not hold my breath about this House finally taking on the much-needed reform of the House of Lords, but if, and hopefully when, it does, would it be desirable that people can run for election and hold office, namely by having a dual mandate between the Assembly and an elected House of Lords?

It is important that this issue is sorted out now within the terms of the current Bill. I note that that position is supported by the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee. In so doing, we come to this issue with the premise of one Member, one Chamber. Having had the experience of serving in other Chambers, and knowing the extent and breadth and depth of work and investigative intelligence that is required of Members in all those Chambers, particularly in terms of legislation, we not only support our own amendment—amendment 20—but we also support those of the hon. Member for Belfast East.

[Mr Dodds]

On clause 3 and the ending of the dual mandate between Members of this House and Members of the Assembly, our party made it clear some time ago that we would be bringing this matter to the point that by 2015, as was recommended, dual mandates would be ended. We are working towards that, and it needs to be made very clear in this Committee tonight that this Bill does not end dual mandates; the parties in Northern Ireland are ending dual mandates, and they are doing so for the reasons that have been advanced, which are that we have now moved forward to a position where politics is much more stable, and the Assembly and the Executive are up and running. We are therefore in a very different position from the one we were in only a short time ago, when dual mandates were not only preferable, but essential, for the reasons laid out very clearly by my right hon. Friend the Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) and because of the leading political figures in this House who were playing the important—the crucial—role of bringing about peace, stability and devolution in Northern Ireland. That would not have worked if there had not been that dual mandate at that time; that is absolutely the case.

There is a tendency sometimes to look at situations from the perspective of today, rather than looking at the context of the time. I want to pay tribute to all Members who held dual mandates at that time. I want to do so not because I was one of those Members who held a dual mandate, but because they put themselves and their families under enormous stress and strain in terms of the work load, but still carried out an immensely powerful job, as was recognised through the votes of the people, who consistently voted for them. Therefore it is only right and proper to pay tribute to those politicians who did that in very difficult circumstances, and who had their pay cut, we must remember—it was not as if they were doing it for two salaries. It was done for the reasons set out, and also because, to return to an earlier discussion, there were very real threats against politicians, and not too many people were prepared to come forward and put their head above the parapet. Every Member in our party, and Members of other parties as well, including the SDLP and the Alliance, suffered very severe threats at that time, and actual attacks on their person, their offices and on people close to them. That was the reality of the situation we lived in.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Dodds]

I have listened carefully to the Minister. Clearly, the contribution from the right hon. Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) has been received warmly because we recognise the part he played as Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, and as Minister of State before that; he was widely praised for his efforts during his tenure, and we thank him.

There is a view across most of the parties in Northern Ireland, with the exception, I think, of Sinn Fein, that the Assembly is too big and should be reduced in size. Until we can get that cross-community support in the Assembly, we are where we are, but at least the Bill recognises movement, in that it makes this a reserve matter, rather than an excepted matter, and so puts it more within the Assembly’s bailiwick. Our view, in tabling the amendments, was that the more that was done, the better; it shows maturity and demonstrates that the Assembly is developing. It shows that issues such as the make-up of the Executive, how it is appointed and elected, the First Minister and Deputy First Minister should all be more within the remit of the Assembly.

I have heard what the Minister has said, and I also heard his earlier comments that he was listening carefully to the matters being raised and would reflect upon them. In that spirit, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 6 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 7

Extension of term of Assembly

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Ms Ritchie]

I approached clause 7 by way of a probing amendment that was not selected. I sought information on Second Reading about why the mandate of the current Assembly was being extended from a four-year term to a five-year term, given that the people of Northern Ireland voted for parties on the basis of four, not five years.

Many political representatives, including the current Secretary of State and the former Secretary of State, have stated that there is insufficient consensus on extending the term, while the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee compiled evidence that clearly suggested there was insufficient evidence and did not agree with extending the term to five years. I understand that three parties—at the centre, shall we say—supported extending the mandate: the Democratic Unionist party, Sinn Fein and the Alliance party. On the other hand, the Social Democratic and Labour party and the Ulster Unionist party did not.

I believe in democracy. Members were elected to the Northern Ireland Assembly on the basis of four, not five years. That is a very different position from that in Scotland and Wales. In November 2011, when people stood for election and sought mandates in Scotland and Wales, they did so on the basis that those terms would be five years. It was very different in Northern Ireland. I did not get that mystery unlocked on Second Reading, so I now ask the deputy Secretary of State if he will provide me with an explanation; I am sure he will be happy to do so.

[Mr Dodds]

I want briefly to put on record our view, which we also stated on Second Reading.

We believe that the argument for moving the date of the Assembly election is strong, not least because that is what is happening for Scotland and Wales. There is no logical, coherent reason at all to challenge the Government position—that we should also extend the mandate for the Northern Ireland Assembly by one year, to ensure that a Westminster election and an Assembly election are not held on the same day. That is important because they are probably the two most important elections that are held. Council elections are obviously significant, as are elections to the European Parliament, but when we are electing the legislature and the Executive for the Northern Ireland Assembly and also representatives in this House, it is inevitable that one of those elections would dominate the media and the political debate to the exclusion of the other, to a much greater extent than with other elections. For that reason, clause 7 is important.

Security in Northern Ireland

Debate between Lord Dodds of Duncairn and Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick

Wednesday 21st November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Ms Ritchie]

We were very concerned that the prisons issue does not feed the dissidents, as happened with the provisional movement in the past.

If I may continue: my party has stood against violence. Violence was wrong back in the ’70s, ’80s and ’90s and it is wrong now—simple, clear. Others have come a longer way—whether those who have renounced the armed struggle and have followed the electoral road to places such as this, or those, including the Democratic Unionist party who moved this motion, who fanned the flames of division for many years, including sporadic flirtations with paramilitarism and lawlessness. We are now all in the same place. We stand united against terror and we will not be moved. It is vital that we continue, whatever else may divide us, that united stand against terror. There must be no slippage on anyone’s part.

I recognise the distance travelled by others and acknowledge that we are united against terror. That unity is genuine and, I believe, resilient. However, I must also caution the DUP and Sinn Fein on how we maintain our united stand and how we deepen our commitment. To Sinn Fein I say the following: they perhaps have travelled furthest of all and deserve credit for that, but they can and should do more. First, they should stop describing a murderous atrocity as achieving nothing, or pointless, or condemning the perpetrators as having no strategy. Such acts are not just wrong strategically and tactically—they are just plain wrong. They are morally wrong. It would help if they could just say so.

Secondly, republicans must do more to provide every shred of information they have, whether recent or from the recesses of their memories, to the police—not selectively, but completely. I believe that it was a major step backwards to see Sinn Fein leaders recently protesting outside police headquarters against the arrest of a republican in the investigation into the murder of Robert McCartney in Belfast. One either supports the police or not, and the dogs on the street know that republicans have yet to come clean on the brutal murder of Robert McCartney and the subsequent despicable persecution by republicans of his family.

It is not just Sinn Fein who need to do more to strengthen our united stand against terror. The party behind the motion can sometimes be uncomfortably close to some of the hard men on the other side. I understand that the DUP leader only recently complained to the Irish Government that funding going into worthwhile north/south infrastructure projects should instead go to community projects for loyalists, because loyalist paramilitaries were getting restless and were increasingly of a disposition to strike out. That is not good enough. Our united stand against terror must include all those who espouse terror and violence, not only the republican dissidents in this motion but the intimidatory thugs who continue to prey on working class communities on all sides. I would hope that the DUP pay heed to that.

[Mr Dodds]

The hon. Lady made a statement in relation to my party leader, the First Minister of Northern Ireland. I would just be grateful if she could provide the House with any evidence that she may have for that ridiculous statement.

[Ms Ritchie]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I think there is evidence to that effect and he should discuss it directly with his colleagues who serve in the Northern Ireland Executive. [Interruption.] Yes, there is evidence to that effect.

We must not allow the tragic murder of Mr David Black to curtail our appetite for reform in the north. Our hard-working Justice Minister has plans to reform the Prison Service, just as we have reformed policing, and we must let him get on with it.

If there is one thing politicians can do to honour the memory of David Black and everyone else killed over the last several years—the police officers and other members of the security forces tragically murdered three or four years ago, and the other brave citizens cut down while providing essential public services—it is to strengthen and deepen our big achievement in devolution, which is our united stand against terror. That is what we should all subscribe to and what we in the SDLP—my party leader, my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast South, my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle and I—have done continually.

Changing Perceptions of Northern Ireland

Debate between Lord Dodds of Duncairn and Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick

Wednesday 7th March 2012 Commons Chamber

[Ms Ritchie]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I say to all Members present that it is important that we look to all events and at all the attributes of the people of Northern Ireland. It is not enough simply to look through the narrow prism of one identity, but this motion could be construed as such, and I say that more in sorrow than in anger, and more with regret than anything else.

So I look to the right hon. Member for Belfast North—

[Mr Dodds]

rose—

[Ms Ritchie]

In his winding-up speech—

[Mr Dodds]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Ms Ritchie]

Not at this particular stage.

[Mr Dodds]

Oh.

[Ms Ritchie]

But I will be quite happy to give way a little later, when I have progressed with my contribution.

The motion underpins a Unionist agenda, it honours the foundation of a Northern Ireland state, and there is no recognition of my identity and where I come from. A growing proportion of those who reside in Northern Ireland are Irish, hold Irish passports, support the south of Ireland’s soccer team, support and participate in football and hurling, as part of the Gaelic Athletic Association, and speak the Irish language. That is part of our ethnicity and background.

I am not denigrating the views or the identity of others; I am saying that there must be parity of esteem, respect for both traditions on the island, and that when we are talking about the north of Ireland, or Northern Ireland, we should take into account everybody’s attributes. That is what moving forward means and what the new political institutions are all about: they are about moving forward together. I am quite happy to give way now to the right hon. Gentleman, who I hope will be able to elucidate that issue.

[Mr Dodds]

In an intervention, I shall not be able to do what the hon. Lady invites me to do, as I am conscious of Mr Deputy Speaker, but if she feels so strongly about the issue, why in the amendment to which her name is attached is there no mention of any issues to which she has referred or of any aspects that she has just discussed? Why, if she feels so strongly, did she not table such an amendment?

[Mr Dodds]

You are relying on the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) for the answer.

[Ms Ritchie]

No, I would know the answer anyway; I do not need anybody to tell me.

The right hon. Gentleman can, however, see what we have clearly done. We have concentrated on the practical politics that needs to be concentrated on, namely a reduction in VAT on tourism, because our tourism industry is being undermined. The amendment would also delete the partisan elements of the motion.

[Mr Dodds]

Disgraceful.

[Ms Ritchie]

Absolutely not. It is our duty as public representatives to try to heal divisions.

Northern Ireland Economy

Debate between Lord Dodds of Duncairn and Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick

Thursday 1st March 2012 Westminster Hall

[Mr Dodds]

The hon. Lady is absolutely right. She represents the constituency of Belfast East, and I represent Belfast North, which has more of the so-called peace walls than any other constituency. She and I share many of the challenges that come with representing a Belfast constituency and inner city areas, and I totally agree with what she said.

I was talking about tourism and the impact that violence on our TV screens has on attracting visitors. I believe, however, that the tourism industry has great potential to help grow the private sector. When the troubles—the violence—started in the late 1960s, the number of visitors coming to Northern Ireland, which had been growing very much during the ’60s, dropped off massively overnight and stayed at that very low base for 30 to 40 years. There is massive potential to grow the numbers back to what they were previously. We are not even back to that point yet.

[Ms Ritchie]

As the right hon. Gentleman says, there is further potential to be developed in relation to tourism. Does he agree that part of what is required is the development of the product assets themselves, as opposed to the marketing of them? If we develop the assets, we will ensure that marketing flows from that.

[Mr Dodds]

The hon. Lady has a point, but I think that it is a matter of doing both. We must have the product. That is why the number of signature projects that have been and are being developed in Northern Ireland is extremely important. Then, as everyone knows, we have to get out there and sell the product. We need a combination of both.

I congratulate the Executive on their aim to have, by the end of December 2013, 3.6 million visitors coming to Northern Ireland, with a revenue of £625 million. That will provide a major boost to employment. We are talking about investment in product. The Titanic signature project, which has been referred to and which opens on 31 March, is a very significant addition to the tourism product in Northern Ireland.

I am reflecting on the first meeting of the Northern Ireland Executive in 2007, after devolution was restored. The first item of major expenditure brought to the table was a proposal that I brought to invest and commit public funds, alongside private investment and European funds, to the Titanic signature project. I am delighted that that has come to fruition. Along with some other projects, it was derided, criticised and picked over at the time, but everyone now agrees that it will probably be the biggest tourist draw on the island of Ireland, apart from the natural attractions, such as the Giant’s Causeway. It will be a massive addition to the tourism product. That was a far-reaching and visionary decision of the Northern Ireland Executive, taken at one of their first meetings in 2007.