Defence Acquisition Reform

Lord Deben Excerpts

Thursday 7th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I agree. The Americans have a very good expression: “soup to nuts”. It is a very simple way of describing any project from one end right to the other. I believe that is precisely what my friend in the other place is trying to achieve here, in coming up with a considerably more flexible and nimble approach to the threats that we currently face.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

Could my noble friend go back to number two of his five principles? It seems to me that in the private sector, we have a very large number of these problems as far as procurement is concerned. There are many places where great strides have been made. It has always been thought that the forces are not always willing to accept, with a degree of openness, advice from the private sector—not just in the single programme, but overall. Can my noble friend reassure the House that this is really going to change, and that people understand that there are aspects of procurement which are not just about how you do this very difficult technical kind of procurement, but which really can be learned from other people?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I entirely agree with my noble friend. There is no doubt that the private sector and the Ministry of Defence need to work much more closely together to ensure that the absolutely current technology is not only available but able to be developed, and that the working practices and checks and balances on some of the assumptions that have been made are tested properly within the wider concept, not just within the forces network. This is incredibly important. If there is to be a joined-up approach and a proper pan-defence affordability exercise at the outset, it almost demands engagement across a much wider base than previously.

Investigatory Powers Bill

Lord Deben Excerpts

Wednesday 7th September 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rooker]

Perhaps I may put a strictly non-lawyer’s question to the noble Lord, Lord Butler. Who decides where the court action takes place? Bearing in mind that these are slightly different circumstances and given that, as I understand it, a conviction takes place in a court, who decides where the person who has been charged should stand trial? I am not clear on that point. They might say, “I would rather go to Northern Ireland, please, because I would get only six months there”.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, I always believe that these debates should not be carried out only between those who spend their lives discussing whatever the subject is, and this is one of them; it is extremely dangerous to leave it to those for whom security is their bread and butter. I mean that in the most polite way. However, this particular Bill has been the subject of very considerable concern among members of the general public. I was pleased to hear earlier how the Government’s amendments, tabled by my noble friend, showed just how carefully the Government have considered people’s concerns about the sorts of decisions that we have to make in the circumstances of today.

Also of concern are the remarks of the noble Lord who talked about the desire he always has to make sure that when times are not as they are now, the draconian decisions we have to make today do not automatically continue but are seen always as decisions made in circumstances that we have never faced before.

The amendments put down by the noble Lord, Lord Butler, are also worthy of careful consideration. The reason I suggest that is that they are immediately comprehensible to the public at large. The public want to know that, having struck the sort of balance which they understand has to be reached, we are also concerned that that balance shall be maintained and will not be an excuse for a constant erosion of what people feel to be very precious things. Freedom and privacy are too precious to allow what one might call mission creep. The only way to stop it is by having a clear definition of a crime—of something that has been done which is punishable. I am concerned about this gap in the legislation which I suspect the Government did not intend to be there.

All I want to say to my noble and learned friend is that, for the public as a whole, what the noble Lord, Lord Butler, has proposed will be very attractive. If the Government do not like the wording or if we cannot answer questions such as where a court case might be heard, no doubt it can be rewritten—but I hope that it will not be ignored.

Mental Health Services: Serving Military Personnel

Lord Deben Excerpts

Thursday 14th January 2016 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, yes, we do have regular discussions with Combat Stress, with which we work very closely in partnership, as I have already indicated. It is interesting that, while the number of military personnel assessed with a mental disorder has risen steadily in the past couple of years, the level of mental illness remains broadly comparable with that of the general population. Although it may sound strange to say it, I think the rise could indicate good news rather than bad news, in that the more we address stigma in mental illness, the more we encourage people who need help to come forward. I hope that is attributable to the better services that are available.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

Will my noble friend tell me when last we had a thoroughgoing investigation into what other forces do in this area? Is this not surely something about which we could learn a great deal from, and teach a great deal to, others who are concerned with what must be a universal problem among the major forces of NATO? A comparative piece of work might very well be valuable.

[Earl Howe]

My noble friend hits on an extremely important point, which is why, in 2003, the Ministry of Defence commissioned the King’s Centre for Military Health Research, which is part of King’s College London, to conduct a long-term research study following a cohort of more than 20,000 members of the Armed Forces. That study continues with the same cohort. In so doing, comparative information is emerging about the performance of other armed services around the world. We can take credit for the fact that the incidence of mental illness in our own armed services compares very favourably indeed with that of some other armed services around the world.

Tax Credits (Income Thresholds and Determination of Rates) (Amendment) Regulations 2015

Lord Deben Excerpts

Monday 26th October 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Meacher]

As I understand it, this House has every right to place amendments to statutory instruments on any subject—that was the conclusion of the Cunningham Joint Committee.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

Will the noble Baroness answer the very simple question? How many of those Motions were on budgetary matters?

[Baroness Meacher]

None of those Motions was on the Budget. That is the constraint on this House as I understand it. Had these provisions been in the Budget they would have gone through the normal procedures and this House would have had a different role. That is the crucial point—here we are dealing with a statutory instrument.

There are four Motions on the Order Paper today. My Motion clearly leaves the matter in the hands of the elected House. The justification for a delay is that the House of Commons will have a full-day debate and a vote on these issues on Thursday. I understand that dozens of Conservative Back-Benchers are urging the Chancellor to adjust the tax credit reforms to protect the most vulnerable. Yes, there have been three votes on tax credits in the House of Commons, won by the Government. However, Conservative MPs—not me—say they did not have the information they needed when they voted for the cuts. I hear that many of them are now livid about this. The third vote was last Tuesday. Conservative MPs made it clear they wanted adjustments to the tax credit cuts but they kept their voting powder dry anticipating the vote next Thursday.

It is extraordinary that at least eight Conservative MPs—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Richard]

My Lords, I am bound to say to the noble Lord that I am not sufficiently qualified medically, politically or personally to know what is in the mind of Mr Leigh when he gets up in the House of Commons. To expect me to be able to do that is, frankly, unrealistic.

The answer to the noble Lord, Lord Tebbit, again is very simple. Of course the Government chose to do it. Why? Because it cut off discussion. It meant that they were not accountable on the Floor of the House of Commons. They knew when they did it that there was a convention here that we did not vote against statutory instruments; we did not turn them down. By doing it that way the Government thought they were impregnable in their approach. I do not think they are.

[Lord Deben]

Could it not have been that they did it that way because that is what the Act said they had to do? Would that not be a more proper judgment of what the Government did?

[Lord Richard]

The Act gave the Government the power to do it. It did not compel them to do it. If they wanted to do it by way of an Act of Parliament it could have been done that way. They could have added it to the Finance Bill and it would have come up here and in the normal way financial privilege would have applied and none of this nonsense would have been created. Perhaps the reason the Government chose to legislate in this way was because it was bound to create political controversy. Perhaps that was the object of the exercise.

I want to say a word about the debate in 2008. It was when this House limited the power of a Labour Government to raise the national insurance upper threshold so that it could be done only through primary legislation. The two cases are almost identical. In each case, the Government were trying to alter tax provisions by a statutory regulation. In each case, this House was standing in their way. The only real difference is that in 2008—

Armed Forces (Service Complaints and Financial Assistance) Bill [HL]

Lord Deben Excerpts

Tuesday 29th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Bishop of Sheffield]

My Lords, from these Benches I welcome the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, and give it our full support. The amendment gives strong support to the setting up of a credit union for the Armed Forces and their families in a similar way in which the church is setting up its own credit union—the Churches’ Mutual Credit Union. The Armed Forces, like the clergy and other groups, need a source of affordable credit for short and long-term needs. As a society we have a duty of support and care to our Armed Forces. Recent research in a number of strands shows clearly that the ability to obtain credit at reasonable rates of interest is a vital element in building resilience to poverty and debt across our whole society. The inability to obtain such credit in times of need raises the possibility of falling further into debt, of food and fuel poverty and of a downward spiral.

An occupationally based credit union is not only a safety net but something that will further encourage service personnel, as we have heard, to plan financially for current situations and future needs. Other professional bodies and occupations, such as the police and trade unions, already offer a credit union to their members. In the USA, the navy has long had a credit union. Founded in1933, the Navy Federal Credit Union is the world’s largest credit union with more than $60 billion in assets, more than 5 million members, 247 branches and more than 11,000 employees worldwide.

A credit union for the Armed Forces has the potential to make a significant difference in the long term. If I understand the proposal of the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, correctly, the Navy Federal Credit Union does for US service personnel exactly what the proposals in the amendment would offer Her Majesty’s Armed Forces. The Navy Federal Credit Union could provide an interesting model by which to shape our own service personnel credit union. On 8 April in another place, the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, Philip Dunne, made positive comments and commitments to the notion of a service personnel credit union. Will the Minister in his closing remarks comment on the progress of discussions with the credit union trade body and the service charities referred to on that date by the Under-Secretary of State?

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, the Minister will have been under the usual pressure to say that this provision is probably not suitable for this Bill and that there are all kinds of reasons why it will not quite work. Perhaps his officials will have used the words that I well remember as a Minister: “Better not”.

I suggest to my noble friend that this is the kind of opportunity that rarely comes when a Member has raised an issue for which there is no convenient box in other Bills. I must say that the whole House owes a great deal to the noble Lord opposite for having found this moment for the amendment. I therefore very much hope that my noble friend will be sensitive to this issue. It is in line with much of what we are trying to do elsewhere and is the best way to counter the sharks. Actually, legislation does not help much with sharks because they always find a way around it, but if one can provide an alternative to the sharks, one is more likely to win the battle.

It is notable that throughout our society the encouragement of the credit union movement by all sorts of organisations—I have recently come across several examples—is something that can do only good because it uses three simple concepts. First, people need to borrow money from time to time. Even the best-organised families find that to be necessary so there ought to be a way in which they can do it. Secondly, there is no doubt that within the Armed Forces there are many for whom pay and conditions are not absolutely perfect and where there are stretching moments—perhaps more so than in other jobs. Thirdly, as the noble Lord opposite said, we owe our Armed Forces a particular debt and, because of the things we ask them to do and the places we ask them to go to, it is often more difficult for them to access the sort of short-term help that many people receive from family and friends. That just happens to be part of the conditions of being in the Armed Forces.

I very much hope that my noble friend, who has shown himself to be particularly sensitive on many issues, will be able on this occasion to give us some hope that he can persuade others to accept that this is a sensible place to put the amendment and to give some degree of creativity to a Bill which, although important, is not the most exciting to have come before this House. I have sat through most of our proceedings and I have to say that this nugget, if my noble friend is able to give it his blessing, might well be the thing that people remember the Bill for.

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend Lord Kennedy of Southwark and the right reverend Prelate on introducing the amendment and on the powerful case that they have put forward. I certainly do not intend to repeat all the points that have been made, not least because the Ministry of Defence already recognises the importance of this issue.

As has already been mentioned, the former Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence, Dr Andrew Murrison, said this year that as part of the department’s,

“ongoing efforts to better support our service personnel, the MoD is currently considering the benefits of an armed forces credit union. However, no decision has yet been taken”.—[Official Report, Commons, 24/2/14; col. 63W.]

The Ministry of Defence has, of course, introduced the MoneyForce programme to provide service personnel with advice and training on finances. Welcome though that scheme is, it does not provide service personnel with an alternative to their current arrangements. I hope that the Minister will be able to tell us when the Ministry of Defence is going to make a decision, as a military credit union would offer a financial lifeline to a great many serving personnel, veterans and their families. We support such a move, and in that I think we have the Department for Work and Pensions in our corner, as it has been supporting the expansion of credit unions across the UK since 2012, following its own feasibility study, which found that around 7 million people fall into the trap of high-cost credit.

One of the advantages of a credit union is that it can offer specialised financial products and services designed to meet the particular needs of the communities it serves. That means that the very specific circumstances and situations that military personnel, veterans and their families often face—such as living apart, or moving house a considerable number of times—can be factored in to financial decision-making and advice.

The Government—any Government—have a responsibility to source an adequate route to financial security for Armed Forces personnel, veterans and their families, under the obligations placed on them by the Armed Forces covenant, which states that, where possible, disadvantages should be removed so that military personnel are able to enjoy the same opportunities and outcomes as the civilian community. The reality is that many military personnel and their families are limited in their access to secure finance, due to circumstances arising from the duties they perform, and the service they give, on behalf of us all. I very much hope that the Minister will be able to give a helpful and meaningful response to the amendment in the names of my noble friend and the right reverend Prelate.

Armed Forces (Service Complaints and Financial Assistance) Bill [HL]

Lord Deben Excerpts

Wednesday 9th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Craig of Radley (CB)]

My Lords, I have added my name to this amendment—as the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Boyce, has explained, it is a probing amendment—because of the importance that must be vested in, and allowed to, the chain of command. I do not need to rehearse in this Committee that importance. The chain must run, and be allowed to run, seamlessly from the highest legal authority, the Defence Council, down through the ranks to the most junior serviceperson.

Since the major part of this Bill is to amend the Armed Forces Act 2006, this should ensure that service personnel involved in a complaint are to be subject to a single disciplinary statute, and are not, as in matters considered to be human rights, dealt with by separate and potentially conflicting legislation. I welcome that.

However, my concern with new Section 340K is that it allows the ombudsman to opine that a serviceperson is in contempt for some obstruction or act, to certify the obstruction or act, and to refer the person directly to a civilian court for investigation. In other words, the ombudsman is given a power of command over the individual even though he—the ombudsman—is not, as the Minister stated, within and does not form any part of the chain of command. It is argued that this contempt-dealing power is normally vested in an ombudsman, although not invariably. Be that as it may, the Armed Forces are, as the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Boyce, has said, dealt with differently in legislation. No other public servant is treated in the same statutory way as are members of the Armed Forces.

Surely a better approach, which would cover the issue of contempt and retain the position of the chain of command, would be for the ombudsman to report the individual and the perceived contempt to the Defence Council. The council would then instruct the individual to comply with the ombudsman’s requirement and, if the individual did not, it would be a blatant case of failing to obey a lawful command and could be dealt with accordingly.

Allowing the issue of contempt to be taken direct to a civilian court could lead, because of the lack of detailed knowledge of the Armed Forces by the court, to protracted, time-consuming and more expensive consideration of the issue. Surely it is important to the legislation’s aim to speed up resolution of complaints that steps are taken, where possible, to avoid delay and not slavishly to insert and rely on drawn-out procedures, as would be the case with new Section 340K. Bearing in mind the authority invested by new Section 340M in the position of the Defence Council to an ombudsman’s report about a complaint, it would seem acceptable and a more timely solution to the problem faced by an ombudsman of a potential contempt of his authority if that contempt were dealt with through the Defence Council. I urge the Minister to consider this approach and be minded to offer an alternative to the current new Section 340K on Report along the lines that I and the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Boyce, are suggesting.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, it will be within many of your Lordships’ memory that I take a particular interest in those occasions when we are discussing the particular interests of sections of the community. We very often have a discussion when the whole debate seems to be by lawyers about what should happen on the law. Similarly, I am concerned when the debate becomes a debate by members of the Armed Forces about what should happen in the Armed Forces. As a non-member of the Armed Forces I support the concern behind this, for two reasons.

The first is not a military reason at all. It is that I dislike very much the concept that, because somebody else has a power, it has automatically to be put into this legislation. That, of course, is an argument that has been used. It seems to me to be almost always a false argument. Indeed, if it is to be here it should be argued that it is right here, not that somebody else argued about it and said it was right somewhere else. There is much in our legislation which has got in because people have never really debated it but merely said, “Well, every time we have a Bill of this kind, we always put this in”. New Section 340K extends the way in which the ombudsman would work to an unacceptable extent.

I do not understand why it would be better to do it this way than in the way noble Lords opposite have put forward. The Government must explain why going through the Defence Council would not be just as good as doing this. If one went to the Defence Council, one would not open oneself to the concern that is here. It is not the most important thing in the world; the pillars of the temple will not come down if we do not make a change here. All the same, we ought to be very careful about making it difficult for the chain of command in the Armed Forces to be clearly a chain without any interference. There is a mechanism for avoiding that and I hope very much that the Government will look at it and see whether there is any real reason for insisting on this format, which may be all right somewhere else but is not necessarily right here. The only reason I intervene is that I think it is important for somebody who is not in the Armed Forces to say that they think this is valuable.