Investigatory Powers Bill

Lord Rooker Excerpts

Wednesday 7th September 2016 Lords Chamber

Speaking of technologies, I want to address the contents of the amendment. The Government absolutely agree with Mr Anderson’s assessment that those authorising, approving and overseeing the exercise of bulk powers must be alert to the impact of technological change on their utility and impact. I am sympathetic to the amendment, and we are giving very careful consideration to Mr Anderson’s recommendation. The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, asked what more the Government need. My answer is that what we need and hoped for are the views expressed by the Committee. I listened with particular care to the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, who gave us his views on Mr Anderson’s recommendations. I am grateful to him and we will consider very carefully what he said. It is precisely because we did not want to pre-empt today’s discussion that we have remained silent on the issue. The review was specifically commissioned to inform our debates. We will listen carefully and respond shortly, when we are in a position to consider in the round both the findings of the review and the subsequent debate in the Committee.

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

The noble Lord, Lord Carlile, made the case for going a bit wider than the narrow wording of the recommendation. Will the Government have a look at recommendation 6 of the RUSI report? We recommended an advisory council for digital technology and engineering to cover some of these exact points. The recommendation goes somewhat wider—it is probably too wide for the purposes of the Bill—but it met the point about providing research on engineering technology and being answerable to the Secretary of State, so the process is open and we keep abreast of technical measures. Advancing public education is what we get from David Anderson’s reports from time to time; that is what they are about. I ask for recommendation 6 of the RUSI report to be considered in conjunction with David Anderson’s recommendation to see whether consensus can emerge.

[Earl Howe]

I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Rooker. We will certainly do that. That is precisely the kind of suggestion that I hoped would emerge from this debate.

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[The Marquess of Lothian (Con)]

My Lords, I rise briefly to support the noble Lord, Lord Butler, in these proposed new clauses. As a member of the Intelligence and Security Committee I can confirm that we felt very strongly that there was a gap here which needed to be filled. I am conscious of the fact that the major consideration behind this Bill was to create a balance between privacy on the one side and security on the other. The way we did that was by ensuring that the security aspects were well and properly covered, as indeed they are in terms of the bulk powers in this Bill, but equally that confidence on the privacy side was sufficient for people to accept that where they were misused there would be an adequate penalty against that. But looking at the Bill and the other offences that can be committed and the penalties available for them, in the case of bulk powers, which is what most of the public in the evidence we took in the ISC were concerned about, there seems to be a gap that is covered only by minor results of a criminal offence.

I suggest to the Government and to my noble and learned friend that whether or not he agrees completely with the precise criminal penalties suggested in the amendments, the principle of having a stronger set of criminal provisions relating to these powers should be considered very seriously.

[Lord Rooker]

Perhaps I may put a strictly non-lawyer’s question to the noble Lord, Lord Butler. Who decides where the court action takes place? Bearing in mind that these are slightly different circumstances and given that, as I understand it, a conviction takes place in a court, who decides where the person who has been charged should stand trial? I am not clear on that point. They might say, “I would rather go to Northern Ireland, please, because I would get only six months there”.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, I always believe that these debates should not be carried out only between those who spend their lives discussing whatever the subject is, and this is one of them; it is extremely dangerous to leave it to those for whom security is their bread and butter. I mean that in the most polite way. However, this particular Bill has been the subject of very considerable concern among members of the general public. I was pleased to hear earlier how the Government’s amendments, tabled by my noble friend, showed just how carefully the Government have considered people’s concerns about the sorts of decisions that we have to make in the circumstances of today.

Also of concern are the remarks of the noble Lord who talked about the desire he always has to make sure that when times are not as they are now, the draconian decisions we have to make today do not automatically continue but are seen always as decisions made in circumstances that we have never faced before.

The amendments put down by the noble Lord, Lord Butler, are also worthy of careful consideration. The reason I suggest that is that they are immediately comprehensible to the public at large. The public want to know that, having struck the sort of balance which they understand has to be reached, we are also concerned that that balance shall be maintained and will not be an excuse for a constant erosion of what people feel to be very precious things. Freedom and privacy are too precious to allow what one might call mission creep. The only way to stop it is by having a clear definition of a crime—of something that has been done which is punishable. I am concerned about this gap in the legislation which I suspect the Government did not intend to be there.

All I want to say to my noble and learned friend is that, for the public as a whole, what the noble Lord, Lord Butler, has proposed will be very attractive. If the Government do not like the wording or if we cannot answer questions such as where a court case might be heard, no doubt it can be rewritten—but I hope that it will not be ignored.

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[Lord Rooker]

This is probably a question for the noble Lord, Lord Butler, rather than anyone else. In subsection (2) of the proposed new clause,

“‘relevant person’ means a member of the intelligence services”.

I am pretty certain from the visits we did with the RUSI panel that other people are used for their expertise by the agencies who are not what you might call employees. I am not sure what the definition of “member” would be. When the noble Lord was drafting that or taking advice, did he consider that that covered everybody who was working in, as opposed to being an employee or member of, the intelligence services? I do not quite know; there could be a gap of people who are free riders.

I read David Anderson’s report only yesterday, but I did read all of it. On at least three occasions he mentions circumstances where people walked the plank; in other words, under the system operating now people who did something wrong either left the service or were sanctioned. It is not as though nothing is happening. It is not highlighted in there—it is buried away almost as an aside. But there have been at least three occasions where this happened. This is part of the reassurance there has to be for the public: who watches the watchers? That is what we have to sell on the privacy aspect, because we have to have it all secret or as much of it as possible secret. The public are being watched over—who is watching the watchers? If there are examples where incidents have occurred and people have walked the plank, those ought to be sufficient examples that the system is operating. I do not know whether or not new sanctions are needed, and I do not know whether this sanction would apply to everybody within the agency because not everybody there is an employee.

[Lord Butler of Brockwell]

My Lords, first, I will attempt to answer the questions of the noble Lord, Lord Rooker. The purpose of the reference to the intelligence services is that this is an activity of the intelligence services and it distinguishes that from the activities of the police or others. Only the intelligence services carry out these functions. On his second point, it is absolutely true, and I know from my own experience, that any misconduct of this sort within the intelligence services would be very severely dealt with and would be the subject of disciplinary action, usually leading to dismissal. The problem with that approach is that it is less than the criminal offences that are applied to other types of misuse of these powers. It is difficult to explain to the public why there should be that distinction.

In answer to the Minister, to whom I am grateful for his explanation, if we are providing reassurance to the public, we ought to have an offence that relates directly to the misuse of bulk powers. Other specific offences are referred to in the Bill, such as for the misuse of communications data or under the Computer Misuse Act. Why in the case of the misuse of bulk powers should we rely only on the general power of misconduct in public office? That is an anomaly.

I wish to make it absolutely clear that, like the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, and the Minister, I have complete confidence in the integrity of members of the intelligence services. That is not what is at issue here. What is at issue is having equal treatment for different types of offence—different types of abuse of powers—under this Bill. It seems to me that there ought to be an evenness in the approach to that, which is not at present in the Bill.

My noble friends and I and, I am sure, the Intelligence and Security Committee will consider carefully what the Minister has said, but I must reserve our right to return to this on Report.