Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Bill
Lord Deben Excerpts(9 years, 10 months ago)
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Lord Deben (Con)
My Lords, it used to be thought that it was only on the opposition side that concern about long waits for things that have been promised is to be found. This is an example of something where Governments do not do themselves any favours at all if it seems that they are capable of bringing forth legislation, because they know what they are going to do, but then spend some 30-odd months before they actually do it. I hope that the noble Baroness will be able to give us the answer but that if not—perfectly reasonably, she may not have that answer—she will make sure that we all know about it when she writes to the Opposition, as this is something that worries us all.
Infrastructure Bill [HL]
Lord Deben Excerpts(10 years ago)
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Lord Hollick (Lab)
My Lords, I was chair of the Economic Affairs Committee of your Lordships’ House during the inquiry into shale gas and oil. The committee wanted to be fully satisfied that the regulatory regime was equal to the task of protecting people and the environment. We took extensive evidence from regulators, academics, local communities, NGOs and exploration companies. We concluded that the regulations and the mandatory industry guidelines gave the regulators all the powers needed to ensure that the environment and the health and welfare of local communities could be effectively protected. The report in 2012 by the Royal Society and the Royal Academy of Engineering, already referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, came to exactly the same conclusion.
We heard from many witnesses that the current regulation of offshore and onshore gas and oil drilling in the UK is widely regarded as best in class. Four of the proposals in Amendment 113G are already covered by existing regulations or industry guidelines, and there is no need to gold-plate them and include them in the Bill. We on the committee endorsed the recommendation in Professor MacKay’s report that fugitive methane should be measured when shale gas extraction begins. The industry agreed to this. To impose a requirement to monitor over the previous 12-month period is quite unnecessary, and only extends an already far too long 16-month timetable to get permission to drill.
We also recommended in our report, as my noble friend has mentioned, that wellhead inspections should be carried out by independent inspectors. The Environment Agency and the Health and Safety Executive will indeed conduct job inspections but the well examiners will be employed by the companies. This was raised in the debate by the Minister last week, and she pointed out that the companies would provide these. One of the important things about regulation is that not only must it be independent but it must be seen to be independent. So why not ask the companies to foot the bill—if resources are a concern, and I suppose they are—for one of the agencies to carry out these independent inspections?
Our report identified that the tortuous and bureaucratic process to approve exploratory drilling is the major impediment to finding out whether or not the UK’s shale deposits are economically exploitable. It is regrettable that amendments were not tabled to address this serious problem, which has the merit of being supported by the facts and which would have commanded cross-party support. If passed, these amendments would add further complexity to an already devilishly complex and bureaucratic approval process, and will potentially extend the timetable by a further 12 months. Having lost the argument on the facts of the case, delay is now the main weapon of choice for those who oppose fracking. To add further delay to the exploration of shale gas would be a misstep.
Shale gas and shale oil could be a major boost to our economy; create jobs and preserve them; boost public and local finances; and halve emissions by replacing coal, which currently generates 40% of our electricity. For these reasons, I will not be supporting this amendment.
Lord Deben (Con)
My Lords, I declare an interest as the chairman of the Committee on Climate Change. It is true that the Minister and I easily could have a conversation, but I wanted to put into context where the Committee on Climate Change stands on the basis of this amendment. Our view is that it would be quite wrong to depart from the science here, when we spend so much time in asking that small group of people who still do not think that climate change is happening, to look at the science there. In other words, we have a responsibility to keep to the science. The science is very clear that there is no fundamental reason why we should not frack and produce gas. Indeed, there is no argument scientifically opposed to it. The royal societies have done us a great deal of good in their work, because we are able to state that as clearly as any fact can be stated. Of course, no scientific fact remains fact for ever; it can always be altered by new information. That is why all scientists are properly referred to as questioning. That is why I believe that we should start with those facts and say that we should go ahead and see whether fracking can give another way of providing the energy we need.
It is very important to say to those who do not want to frack that there is always somebody who does not want to do any of these things—people who think that neither onshore nor offshore wind is acceptable, or people who do not like tidal power. I am fed up with people who have their favourite bits and dislike every other means of generation. The climate change committee has said, rightly, that we want to have a range of means whereby we can meet our future needs. Fracking could, or should, be part of that because we have already said that we will need gas into the 2030s. I thank the Government again for confirming the fourth carbon budget. Following those budgets, we still will need gas. Surely it would be better coming from our own resources than being brought in from somewhere else, particularly given that we do not always have the confidence in many of those places “somewhere else” that we have in our own resources.
That is the background. However, I warn the Government that there is always a chance of snatching defeat from victory. I am afraid that the Government are not always aware of that, so I want to encourage them not to get into that position. I think that the amendment is unnecessary. However, it seems to me that the reason it has been tabled is that there is so much misunderstanding outside. It is terribly important for the Government to underline the very significant difference between the way in which we deal with environmental questions here and the way in which they are dealt with in the United States. First, we deal with them on a national basis, whereas the United States deals with them on a state basis; secondly, there is no doubt that the United States system is lacking very considerably. There are some really disgraceful examples of failure to insist upon basic environmental protections in the United States. I do not want us to have to fight the public, who are misinformed, not about what happens in the United Kingdom but about what has happened in certain states in the United States. Nor do I want the public to take the rather ridiculous view that because it happens in the United States we can do it here, that it is the answer to everything, and there is no need to think about anything else. Both ends of that spectrum are wrong. Those who think that fracking will be the answer to everything and that there will be lower prices are clearly wrong. I say to the noble Lord that to say that it is unacceptable or that it is a sin against the Holy Ghost is also fundamentally wrong and unscientific. We ought not to go back into that same area of the dark ages, which we are invited to do by those who do not believe in climate change. We have to have a sensible, central position, which the Government have.
I would like the Government to oppose this amendment but to say publicly that they will do three things. One is to make it much clearer to everybody in a simple form how the regulations will work and how they will be enforced. The second is to make it absolutely clear that where the Select Committee of this House has recommended that independent checking is necessary, the Government will find a way of insisting that that is done. That is important not just because the House of Lords has suggested it but, frankly, because no one believes any business if it is doing its own checking. It does not matter how good or how bad the business is, we all believe that checking should be done independently—the business can pay for it but it ought to be done independently. We ought to promise that and state it.
The third thing is, I am afraid, even more important—namely, the Government have to give a real undertaking that, when the moment comes, there will be no question of a shortage of funds for any of the institutions that are responsible for protecting the public. The public are very suspicious that it is all too easy to say, “We would have done it but we couldn’t because it was all too long so we did some random checks”. If this measure is to go ahead, we have to know now that there is no question of there being any shortage of funds for the necessary checking, and that it will be done independently. Those of us who believe in the market believe that the cost should fall, as always, on the people who are proposing the fracking.
I end with one simple comment. I am finding it more and more difficult to deal with those who talk about the free market but do not believe in it. They talk about the free market but mean the managed and biased market that we happen to have and which is convenient for them. I do believe in a free market but that means that the costs of the production of this gas should be placed fairly and squarely on the shoulders of the producers and therefore also on the shoulders of the consumers. Given that, I do not think that we need these amendments. The Government are right to proceed on the basis that part of our means of generating for the future will be our home-produced gas.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton (Lab)
My Lords, I declare an interest: I live in Lancashire, which is a beautiful, well populated and much loved county, in case anybody has any doubts. I have listened very carefully to the points made in this debate and have read the proceedings on other stages of the Bill when I have been elsewhere in the House and unable to be present. I would like to concentrate on one issue raised by my noble friend Lord Hollick and other noble Lords. If it is managed and controlled carefully, I believe that a benefit to Lancashire and the north-west can be gained from the production of shale gas—and it is an area of the country which has much need of investment, regeneration and growth.
However, I happened to be in bed when the earthquake occurred in the Irish Sea and I have never been able to find out whether the integrity of the relevant well was a factor in that, as alleged in some of the local media. I am not asking the noble Baroness to tell me now whether she knows more about that but I would appreciate a letter.
I want to concentrate on public confidence. I am not a Luddite. I am not one of those who says, “Never”. However, given all the people who have spoken and written to me, I am very well aware of the grave concerns that people have, some of them for the reason that the noble Lords, Lord Jenkin and Lord Deben, referred to—that is, the scare stories. Those are felt to be real by the people in the communities most affected in Lancashire—and they are felt and feared very strongly.
Assisted Dying Bill [HL]
Lord Deben Excerpts(10 years ago)
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Lord Newby
My Lords, it would not be conducive to making progress and good use of the time available today if we started thinking about what happens after today. We will decide what we do after today after today.
Lord Deben (Con)
On a further point, may I ask my noble friend two things? First, what discussions took place with the interested parties? I do not mean the parties on either side because this is, after all, a cross-party division. Secondly, what are the precedents for this and will he ensure that this does not become a precedent for all kinds of Bills in the future?
Lord Newby
My Lords, my noble friend the Chief Whip had numerous discussions earlier in the week with the principal protagonists on the Bill. On precedents, noble Lords will remember that we sat beyond 5 pm for the Second Reading of the Bill from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, as we did in the 2005 Parliament when the noble Lord, Lord Joffe, brought forward a Bill on the same subject. The House sat beyond 5 pm for its Second Reading on that occasion. If your Lordships look at the pattern of Fridays, we have risen at 3 pm or thereabouts on the vast bulk of them. This Bill is clearly unusual in its significance and the amount of attention that it has generated, both inside and outside your Lordships’ House. I do not think that either my noble friend the Chief Whip or I detect any mood to move beyond 3 pm as a normal finishing time on Fridays.
Baroness Wheatcroft (Con)
My Lords, we have heard from three lawyers. I am not a lawyer—I have to confess that I have not read even paragraph 205 of Lord Wilson’s judgment—but I feel obliged to stand up and say that I think we are missing the point, as I see it, of the Bill of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer.
This is not about medical decisions or judicial decisions; it is about compassion for people nearing the end of their lives. These people have decided that they have had enough. The thought of having to go through a legal process—even if, as we have heard, it has been curtailed as far as possible—and incurring legal bills is the last thing that they want to deal with, if they have complied with the law that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, is suggesting and have actually come to a reasoned decision that they have gone on long enough and the time has come for them to die. We ought not to prolong that procedure for any longer than we have to. I do not think that lawyers have the final view on all that is right.
Lord Deben
My Lords, my noble friend is assuming that every one of these cases is of someone who had voluntarily made all those decisions. We are here concerned that there will be some cases—from my long experience as a Member of Parliament, rather more than some people think—in which that is not so, and somebody has to protect them against being thought to have made that decision when in fact they have not done so.
Baroness Wheatcroft
My Lords, there may indeed be one or two occasions on which that is the case. However, we are looking for at least two medical opinions here, both of which will regard the sanity of the individual. If that individual decides, in full knowledge of what is going on within the family, that that is the decision they want to take, then, on balance, I suspect that we should let them.
Lord Deben
My Lords, I speak from a position in which I must declare an interest, although it is a surprising interest and your Lordships will wonder why I am declaring it. I am chairman of the Association of Professional Financial Advisers. I declare that because the organisation has at its heart a determination to make sure that, if you advise someone on finance, you should be on their side and there should be no question over which side you are on. It is quite difficult to fight that battle because people feel that they can do both: they feel that they can be on both sides perfectly reasonably. Of course, people outside do not feel that. They want to be absolutely sure that the person advising them has only one interest, which is them and their concerns. If that is true in finance, it ought to be true in matters of life and death.
For me, at the heart of this—and, with apologies to the noble Lord, Lord Winston, it is why I wanted to follow the noble Lord, Lord Reid—is ensuring that at no point, in the mind of the patient or in the minds of the patient’s friends and relations, should doctors be equivocal. That is just as important when a patient himself is making the decision to end his life quite decently and honourably as it is when there is pressure. If the patient is making that decision, his family and friends want to feel that it is a decision in which the doctor has not played a part, for the doctor ought to be, right to the last moment, concerned only with the nature of the illness, the palliative care that can be carried through and the way in which new techniques might be applied.
I hope that the noble Baroness who intervened earlier will accept that there are many of us who do not approach this from a prejudiced or religious point of view. As somebody who fought very hard for same-sex marriage, I can hardly be accused of always taking the view of the church to which I belong. I take this view after 40 years as a Member of Parliament or candidate. I have seen so many people in circumstances in which they begin to doubt the advice of their doctors. Although I have no connection at all with the medical profession, I care about it so much that I do not want it to be treated with less care than the Association of Professional Financial Advisers. It should be on one side and not on the other. That is why we must have an external decision-making principle.
I am not qualified to intervene in the discussion between lawyers about what would be best. I intervene partly because I do not think that lawyers should have it all their own way in any circumstances. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and my noble friend Lord Cormack. We have to say to lawyers that this is a situation in which getting an answer that satisfies everybody is something that we lay people would like to see. Frankly, what lawyers have to do for us, as the noble Lord who spoke previously said, is to provide us with an answer in which we feel that the decision is made outwith the medical profession so that the medical profession can do what it is there for and can never be questioned.
I finish with a comment to my noble friend Lady Wheatcroft and the noble Baroness, Lady Blackstone. It is not possible to debate this whole issue or any of the amendments unless you recognise that there is a serious issue of pressure on individuals. I am afraid that after 40 years in Parliament, seeing people at the level that you do if you are a decent Member of Parliament, you discover man’s inhumanity to man is very much further advanced than the comfortable views of many people who do not get to that level. We have to protect people and this is an essential protection.
Lord Winston
My Lords, I was delighted to give way to the noble Lord, Lord Deben, because I agree with so much of what he has just said. I want to echo something that the noble Lord, Lord Alton, said. This is an extraordinarily important Bill, which goes to the heart of our society, and it is desperately important that the Government Front Bench and Members of this Committee allow full and adequate debate on it. If this House is to survive, flourish and be respected, it is very important that it debates these issues adequately and fully and takes as much time as is necessary. If we have to come back on another day to complete Committee, we should do so. It is essential that we understand that, no matter how inconvenient it might be to come back on another Friday.
I always find myself agreeing with the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, but I feel that there is a massive difference between this Bill and the Medical Innovation Bill, which is completely unnecessary. That is why it troubles me that we should be comparing the two Bills.
Very briefly—I shall not detain the House greatly—I want to say why I disagree with my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours. I apologise to him for disagreeing. It is essential that we have something like the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, to protect our society. The reason for that is absolutely clear. It was raised to some extent by the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, in her short speech. The issue, of course, is that in our hospitals we have increasing numbers of elderly people who come into hospital, a foreign environment, and find themselves distressed and not understanding what is happening, and are seen almost as demented; certainly, they will be people who are completely out of touch with what is happening to them and they will not understand. Therefore, it is essential that we have some kind of legal process that ensures that the Bill, if it is to succeed, is properly policed. That is essential. It cannot be left to members of the medical and nursing profession to make their minds up. For that reason, I absolutely support the amendment introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick.
Lord Harries of Pentregarth
My Lords, I have my name down in support of the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Carlile. He has explained the rationale behind it with his usual clarity and I am not going to repeat his arguments. I support very strongly what the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, said about the importance of taking the whole process—the independent assessment and the administration of the drug—out of the hands of doctors and making it from beginning to end in every detail a court-controlled process.
I shall address briefly one question which may be on the minds of many noble Lords. Indeed, it has been said before that this may be to set the bar too high. It is true that under this amendment the tests are very stringent and rigorous, but surely on an issue of life and death such as this, they need to be as stringent and rigorous as possible. Provided that a decision can be made quickly—we have heard many reassurances that the courts can make decisions like this quickly—surely the test cannot be too stringent or too rigorous. What many of the opponents of the Bill are worried about is not that they are failing in compassion for people who find their life unbearable, but about the overall effect of the erosion of the value of human life in our society by decisions on this kind of issue. If the tests are rigorous and stringent and are made from beginning to end by a court process, people will be able to see that these are truly exceptional cases and there will be less effect in terms of eroding more generally the value of human life and in the way we nurse the sick and treat other people who feel their life is a burden.
Lord Deben
My Lords, I do not believe that hard cases make bad law. I have always thought that that is one of the phrases which make it difficult to have a sensible conversation. I believe that you have to be careful not to make law because of a stereotyped position. One of the difficulties in this debate is that we tend to have stereotyped views about what is happening at the bedside. It is important to realise that a whole range of different things happen at the bedside and the relationship between the patient and his or her friends and family is never the same.
I listened with great care to what the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, said. I am not a lawyer and I cannot be precise as to whether his particularities are the best that we can achieve, but I hope that the House will think seriously about the need for three key elements. First, there is speed. If we are going to have this Bill, we want someone to be able to make this decision with the courtesy that speed demands. The process needs to be fast enough to be commensurate with the seriousness of the decision. Otherwise it lengthens something which someone is in desperate need to finish.
Secondly, it needs rigour. The noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, said that. There is nothing wrong with rigour, unless it is of a kind which makes speed impossible. I do not think that the rigour which the noble Lord suggested makes speed impossible. It says to the public as a whole that we have made this change in the law, but it is not a change in the way in which we think about human life. Those who support this Bill believe that it is an enhancement of their view of human life and that the rigour is the mechanism whereby society says that it still believes deeply in the standards and values which respect human life. On this specific and particular occasion, according to these very rigorous rules, they believe it right for someone to take their own life with the assistance of someone else.
Thirdly, we have to do this in a way in which the aftermath is as manageable as possible. I hope that noble Lords will think very carefully about the effect of assisted suicide on the family and friends after it has happened. I believe that the Victorians spoke far too little about sex and far too much about death. The reverse is true today. We do not understand—because very often we are unprepared to talk about it—the effect of death on the rest of the family. I remember receiving a very considerable rebuke when I allowed—and, indeed, organised—my children to see their dead grandmother. I thought it was necessary to start the whole process of grieving. I have become more aware of the different ways in which people react today and of the difficult issue of how someone might react to death before it happens. Anyone who has been involved pastorally—whether in parliamentary or religious terms or just in terms of neighbourliness—recognises that it is hard to know how a particular person will react ultimately to what has happened.
Changes in the law along the lines that the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, has proposed are very important. We should be prepared to recognise that, although this is a decision of the patient, guaranteed by the law to be an individual decision, we as legislators have to legislate in a way which also respects and protects the effect of that decision on society. In an odd way, that is actually our biggest job. We represent society in trying to make these tough decisions. I hope that your Lordships will take seriously the need to do as my noble friend Lord Carlile has suggested, not just for the patient, not just for the doctor and not just for the assurance that we have really professional assessment of the medical advice, but also to make sure that when the children look back on the occasion, they are protected in the best possible way and are able to accept it. After all, whichever side of this argument you are on, that is crucial. Anyone who does not realise what grieving has to be if the future is not going to be seriously tarnished and damaged has not been through that experience.
Lord Blair of Boughton
May I ask the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, about the declaration in Amendment 172? I have no difficulty with the declaration except that it changes the nature of the Bill. Is this a typo or a deliberate change? The declaration declares that the person is going,
“to die within three months”.
However, the Bill says six months. If we are going to change what is in the Bill by such a significant amount, it would be better if it were an amendment in its own right.
Lord Deben
My Lords, I did not intend to speak on this group of amendments, but two interventions lead me to do so. The first was that of my noble friend Lord Mawhinney, who I think is wrong. I do not think that his proposal is necessary. I think that the Bill covers that. What my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay pointed to in that part of Clause 4 is right. It is important that even those of us who are very unhappy about the Bill should be extremely careful not to be presenting things that might be seen as merely holding up or interfering with the process of the Bill. That is why I would not support that proposal. It was the intervention of the noble Baroness, Lady Warnock, which particularly caused me to feel that I should join the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, in his conversation.
Lord Mawhinney
I am grateful to my noble friend for giving way. Would he be willing to accept that there is a difference between an option being available to someone and a requirement to make a decision being available to someone? I am disappointed that my noble friend implicitly accused me of trying to slow down the process when I was, obviously inadequately, trying to draw a distinction which seems to me to be important. The opportunity to be required to make a decision is different, almost in principle, from the option to make one. I hope that my noble friend might on reflection agree that that is a distinction worth considering.
Lord Deben
First, I agree with the distinction. Secondly, the criticism that I made was not of my noble friend but of myself. It was that I would not like to be accused of supporting something merely for the sake of supporting it because it was another part of the debate. That is why I felt it right to say that I did not support this in order that no one should feel that one was elongating. What I would say to my noble friend is very simple: within the Bill it is clearly necessary before the final act takes place for the person doing that act to assure themselves that there has been no change of mind. That is not an option; it appears to me from the Bill that that is a necessity. If it is not a necessity, we ought to make it one. The noble Baroness spoke of the guidance. It would certainly have to be very clear in the guidance. Given those things, I would not want to change it in the way that my noble friend suggests.
I return to the noble Baroness, Lady Warnock, with whom I have had fascinating and interesting discussions over many years. One of the issues that we have not so far considered, but I hope we all have in our minds, is the fear that particularly older people should feel that they are no longer of use when they are of use. Very often, when people say, “I ought to end my life because I am a burden on you”, the answer ought to be, “You are not a burden”. I have been very fortunate in my life because I have had the ability—I mean by that the size of accommodation—for my wife and I to look after both our sets of parents until they died. It was an enormous privilege. If you asked our four children, they would tell you that it was one of the most important parts, if not the most important part, of their upbringing—to be brought up with aged grandparents and, in one case, with a grandmother who had long lost the power of communication. They would all say that all four of them contributed greatly to them and to their lives. The worry I have of the thought that the noble Baroness put forward is that it reaches to the thing in this Bill that for me is the deepest unhappiness, which is that people should feel that they do not matter because they cause trouble and difficulty and are a burden on others.
One of the things behind all this that leads me to take time and to be concerned is the awful way in which this nation in particular treats its older people in general and the attitude we have towards them. Of course, I suppose at my age I ought to declare an interest. However, I intend to be around, like most of my relations, for very much longer. I hope I will not be a burden, but it is not for me to judge whether I am a burden. That is why I think paragraph (d) of Amendment 65 is so important. I do not believe that people should end their lives because they make a decision that they are a burden. I think that is one bit we have no capacity to decide in any circumstances, however mentally agile we may be. It is utterly impossible for any of us to make that as an objective decision. Therefore, to put this into the Bill is an important affirmation of our belief that a person, even in their last days, may, in fact, far from being a burden, be someone who makes a real contribution to the people around.
It is difficult not to, and I know that sometimes it could become maudlin, but we can speak only from our own experience. I, too, was with my father as he died. We were very close. He died as I said the words of the Nunc Dimittis. He clasped my hand and was gone. I think that his last fortnight of pain and his difficulty in coming to terms with a failed operation, making a decision that he would leave his death as it would come, has had a bigger effect than almost anything else. I do not think that he knew that; although I believe that he does now. However, I do not think that he was capable of saying that he did not matter and I think that we ought to protect people from being asked to make that decision.
Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill
Lord Deben Excerpts(11 years, 8 months ago)
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The Lord Bishop of Leicester
My Lords, I have lent my name in support of this amendment, and I am happy to speak in support of it.
This debate is about who should bear the greatest weight of the burden imposed by the Government’s need to reduce debt. I hope that the noble Lords, Lord King and Lord Forsyth, might consider accepting an invitation from me to come to the city of Leicester to explain to our local Child Poverty Commission why it is in the interests of children in poverty that they should become poorer at the moment because that will serve the national interest regarding debt, and that this House is working in their interests by reducing the uprating of their income to 1%, however much inflation rises. They might accept an invitation to explain that also to the unemployed and to voluntary associations in Leicester, which anticipate a tsunami of difficulties such as homelessness and dependence on food banks. They can come to listen to the response to this Bill from those who are dependent on benefits through no choice of their own, who can explain what that is like and how much harder it will get in the years ahead.
If the purpose of this Bill is to control welfare costs, this is not the right way to go about it. The key to reducing the benefit bill is to change the circumstances that lead many people to need benefits, such as the absence of job opportunities, too much short-term, low-paid work, the shortage of affordable housing, and expensive, patchy childcare. We should be focusing on those issues, not cutting benefits in real terms, which simply creates hardship without addressing the underlying issues.
This Bill is both unnecessary and ill conceived. It will harm the most vulnerable in our society and do nothing to promote work incentives. I have heard nothing at Second Reading, in Committee or today to make me change my view that this Bill ideologically shrinks the welfare state regardless of desperate need. Nor does it change my view that we are heading for a US-style welfare system that is dependent on food banks and hostels. We know that we can do better than this, we must do better than this, and we should amend the Bill.
Lord Deben
My Lords, I do not think that anyone could claim that I was other than at the wet end of the Conservative Party. I am perfectly prepared to say that. However, I have to speak after the right reverend Prelate because he has expressed exactly what the problem with Britain is: we are to spend money that we do not have on people who are in need, at a rate we cannot afford. That is not at all a Christian comment. In the end, we have to live within our means. For those of us who were brought up in the difficulties of a poorly paid Anglican parsonage, the first lesson that we learnt was to spend within our means.
I disagree with my noble friend Lord Forsyth, who said that the previous Government were not responsible. They are responsible, because they spent the money that was there and which could now be available for what we need. We were put in this position by the party opposite because it had the best inheritance of any Government, but it spent it and borrowed on top of it. I cannot find a single speech from any right reverend Prelate from that time that warns the Government of the dangers of spending money that they did not have, borrowed in a way that could not be repaid.
The Lord Bishop of Ripon and Leeds
I thank the noble Lord and the noble Baroness for the answers they have given each other on this. It really is not my duty, as a Prelate in this House, to give the church’s view on exactly how the money should be raised. It is a task to say that there are alternatives and, indeed, to make suggestions as to how the money might be raised. There is no policy on exactly how it should be and I do not think that it would be for me to try to produce the solution to what we are doing. There are alternatives. I do not believe that they should be placed on children.
Lord Deben
I wonder whether the right reverend Prelate will understand this point. He is making specific remarks as to how we should spend the money. Is it not reasonable to say that he should take the responsibility for making specific suggestions as to how we should save the money?
The Lord Bishop of Ripon and Leeds
My Lords, I have made a number of specific suggestions as to ways in which this money could be provided from elsewhere. My basic point continues to be that it should not be raised by putting the pressure on children and their families. I am grateful to the Government—and to the noble Lord, Lord Bates, for raising the matter—for the child tax credit increase of £180 in 2011. It has to be said that that was, at the time, only the first of two announced upratings. The second, of £110, never happened because of the economic state in which we find ourselves. That above-inflation increase in child tax credit did something to ameliorate the pressure put on those in most difficulty, particularly children, by various other provisions made over the past few years.
I am grateful, too, for the announcements that the Minister has made this afternoon. However, one could say that if 20% of childcare is to be covered, that still means that those receiving that childcare need to find the other 80% in order to get the 20%. I absolutely agree with the Minister when he speaks of the need to tackle root causes and to make sure that more people are in work. I commend any efforts of any Government which lead in that direction.
However, these amendments are about children and we have moved much more widely in our discussion of them. I am still stuck with the statistic that the decrease in income for a couple without children will be 0.9% over the five years, but for a couple with two children it will be 4.2%. It is the differential between those two figures that we need to tackle. I recognise that attempts have been made to tackle them but they have been stubbornly unsuccessful so far. In view of the various things that the Government do for children—I certainly accept that they have a concern for children—I am sorry that they cannot accept the amendment. In the light of that, I wish to test the opinion of the House.
Financial Services Bill
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Baroness Noakes
I added my name to this amendment because my noble friend has raised some important issues, and I support everything he said. When approaching consumer protection, it is often easy to want to insure or underpin the consumer in every possible way, but we have to have a market in which financial service providers can be confident that when they provide a financial product, whether it is a mortgage, an ISA or an insurance or pension product, they know the risks they are undertaking in relation to that. Understanding the balance that will be taken by the FCA when approaching its consumer protection objective is extremely important to the financial services industry. If the financial service industry gets very unconfident about how this will play out in practice, we will end up with a worse outcome for consumers because it is almost certain that the range of products and the degree of financial innovation that will be invested in would decline. It will not happen immediately, but it will decline over time because firms will not be confident about how they can approach them.
The financial service industry reads very carefully what the people involved in regulation say about these things. The FSA recently put out a document dealing with the direction for the new FCA. It was very useful to be updated how those in the part of the FSA which is migrating to the FCA developed their thinking. In the introduction to that document, Mr Martin Wheatley, who will be the chief executive of the FCA, said:
“We expect a mortgage that is affordable”.
That sounds like an uncontroversial statement, until you think that that might mean that a variable rate mortgage could never be provided to a consumer if it were at all possible that plausible fluctuations in the interest rate could end up with some kind of consumer detriment. We might end up closing off certain products that would benefit consumers because the firm cannot be confident that the standard by which it would be judged will allow it to provide those products safely. The issues raised by my noble friend are extremely important, and I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say.
Lord Deben
My Lords, I refer again to my declaration of interests. I understand the reason for this amendment, but it seems not the right way to achieve its end. To suggest that you have to balance protection on the one hand with access on the other seems a misunderstanding of what protection ought to be. I am sorry that the Government have so far been unwilling to place upon the regulator a responsibility to have regard to the extent to which advice is available. That ought to be part of what the regulator does when he thinks about how he is going to regulate and the demands that he is going to make. There is a real argument that we are going to find that there will be fewer opportunities for those of modest means to get proper advice. It is important for the regulator to take that into account when he lays burdens upon the industry. I think that is right, but I am sure that this is not the way to achieve that end, partly because it does not help the industry to suggest that somehow or other protection for consumers is necessarily contrary to the need to provide for a wider range of people to have advice. The failure to get this right has been one of the problems with the industry in the past.
I hope that the Minister will resist this amendment, but that he will do so recognising that there is a real concern behind it, which is that the cost of regulation and the degree to which regulation is disproportionate falls most on those who most need advice and very often are not in receipt of a great income and do not have large reserves. I hope that the Minister will accept that there is a concern here. It is one that the Government have failed properly to address, and it is not well addressed by suggesting that there is a kind of conflict where conflict does not necessarily occur.
Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts
My Lords, my name is on this amendment, and I briefly rise to support my noble friend. The key phrase in his remarks was “responsible behaviour by providers” and the key phrase in the comments by my noble friend Lady Noakes was “nervousness among providers”. This comes about because this is an industry where there is huge opportunity for ex post judgments. What appears extremely fair and reasonable at one point can, with the effluxion of time, without any malfeasance on either side, come to be seen as having been perhaps not a very suitable way to provide information, products or whatever. We have to be very careful that we do not shut off opportunities for the moderately wealthy or the less than moderately wealthy to get access to proper advice. In doing this, we will need to address the sorts of issues raised by my noble friend.
It is now made worse by the activities of claims management companies that jump on the bandwagon. It is instructive that each firm that is complained against is charged £850 by the Financial Ombudsman Service, irrespective of whether the claim is found to be genuine. This is not a completely free exercise because it will end up on the shoulders of the consumers, or customers, because of the circularity of the way that these firms have to operate. The combination of products with a very long life, a volatile financial services system and a predatory claims management system will lead, unless the regulator has the proper balance in his requirements, to withdrawal of advice, products and services to a large number of our fellow citizens.
Lord Deben
I can see what my noble friend is arguing. However, at no point do I see where the FCA is supposed to say about its own activities that they may be good for perfection but may reduce access. It is really a question of the non-accountability for the costs which the FCA lays on an industry. There does not seem to me to be a precise way—perhaps he would like to point to it—when its own activities and regulatory costs are assessed in that way. Proportionality is one word, but there are many occasions on which it looks as if the cost of regulation itself reduces accessibility to poorer people.
Lord Newby
Perhaps the noble Lord will look at the government amendment, which refers to the need for the FCA to consider,
“the ease with which consumers who may wish to use those services, including consumers in areas affected by social or economic deprivation, can access them”.
The ease with which consumers can access products is affected directly by the costs that might be imposed by the FCA. This puts a duty on it to consider how its own costs, and not just the product characteristics, impact on consumers in those communities. I think what is required is there.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
My Lords, I support the sentiment of the noble Lord’s amendment. He is absolutely correct in diagnosing the woeful inadequacy of education for ordinary pupils as being a source of trouble now and the problem is getting worse. I should declare an interest as the founder and now president of the Citizenship Foundation. We work with over half the state primary and secondary schools providing citizenship education, including a very big vein of financial education which was for many years supported by Deutsche Bank. I wonder whether this amendment attacks the issue in quite the right way in that it seeks to insert, as a matter of primary law, financial literacy into the core education curriculum. That has been hugely debated for the past year or more and I am not even sure that Mr Gove has not already come out with his latest proclamation on what shall be the core curriculum in the future.
The noble Lord, Lord Flight, is absolutely right in the broad thrust of what he says. As with my complaint about the failure of governments of all persuasions to provide adequate implementation resources for legislation such as that we are putting through in this Bill, so too governments of all persuasions fail consistently to give our young people the chance to be citizens with sufficient knowledge and confidence to deal with the complicated world they are supposed to be citizens of.
Lord Deben
My Lords, I would like to support the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Phillips. This may not be the right amendment but I hope the Minister will accept its thrust. It seems to me very curious how the education curriculum excludes for many schools and scholars two issues which may be of most importance to them in future life. One is financial literacy, which should be taught to boys and girls, and the other is proper cooking, which should also be taught to boys and girls. The obesity problem which we have today is very much affected by the fact that we do not seem to be able to produce at home the food which enables us to have a proper balance. The financial problems we have today seem to be very much affected by the fact that we do not seem to be able to produce in the average family the ability to make the sort of decisions which necessitates a basic understanding of the way in which finance works.
I hope the Government will not just brush this amendment aside on the basis that it does not quite work. I think it probably does not quite work but I hope the Government will take it seriously as one of those things that we really have got to stop hiding from. If young people do not learn how to balance their budgets and do not understand the basics of finance, it will not be surprising that financially illiterate people will make choices they should not make. The fault is not theirs. It is the fault of an education system which has decided that these necessary tools of life can be left on one side. I hope that the Government will take seriously the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Flight.
Financial Services Bill
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Baroness Wheatcroft
My Lords, Amendment 4 will achieve an improvement in the balance of the FPC and I support the other amendments in this group, tidying-up amendments which would bring the number of extra appointees from the Bank down to one instead of two. It is obviously better to have a balance, if we can, between the Bank team and the outsiders—as they will undoubtedly feel that they are to start with.
We have heard about groupthink. There obviously has been a fair amount of groupthink at the Bank in the past, although it is worth remembering that on the Monetary Policy Committee the Governor of the Bank of England has been outvoted on several occasions, so it is possible for people to disagree with the governor and for the committee to go against him. However, on the basis that a balance would be better, bringing down the level of Bank people represented on the FPC would be an improvement.
Lord Deben
I merely suggest that in these detailed discussions, when we hear mainly from those who are very expert, it is as well to consider views from outside, from business as a whole. A trick which all businessmen know is that there are two ways in which you can control a committee. One is to have a very small committee mainly related to you, and the other is to have a very large committee in which you know very well that you can organise the dynamics. I am much impressed with the arguments of the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, who has put her finger on a very important issue. I hope that the Government would accept that nowadays there is a good deal of expertise looking at these matters and the Tavistock Institute has much of it. I would be unhappy if we suggested that we knew better than its experience, over a very long time, of how best to do these things. I hope the Government will see this as a perfectly reasonable thing, a balanced situation. The noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, and I do not always agree on matters—indeed, there are lots we disagree on—but on this occasion, coming from my understanding of trying to run boards and companies, this would be a good thing to do and not to do it would seem a little perverse.
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, I cannot pretend to have the expertise on boards that the previous speakers have had and I do not want to repeat the very powerful arguments they have made; I merely add two quick comments. I think that the Minister will have understood from the debate that has gone on for much of today that there is still a general uneasiness over the amount of power that flows to the Governor of the Bank of England under this new framework. Here is a sensible way to put a bit more challenge into the system. I think that we all feel that a bit more challenge would be a good way in which to make sure that the governor has to do the thing that is the greatest check on any individual: to persuade others to go along with him. That is rather more necessary in an absolutely core function, one of financial stability and economic growth.
Secondly, we have all been somewhat concerned about the role of the FCA and the kind of status that the chief executive of the FCA may have in comparison to his peers in the regulatory family that falls more directly under the Bank of England. His role becomes a little more pivotal when you look at Amendment 4 and I suspect that that is no bad thing. It also makes sure that the FCA voice is heard rather more clearly and independently than it might have been without this amendment. I hope that the Minister will take all that on board.
Lord Eatwell
My Lords, my noble friend Lord Peston, who tabled this amendment, had to leave earlier this evening, but he asked me to move it on his behalf. I do so because it is an important and valuable amendment.
In Committee, the Government conceded the arguments made by the Treasury Select Committee and by Members in the other place that the growth and employment objective should be written into the terms of reference of the Financial Policy Committee. However, they have undermined the pursuit of this objective by the way in which it has been incorporated into the Bill. The phrase “subject to that” in proposed new Section 9C(1)(b) makes the growth and employment objective secondary to the stability objective.
Perhaps the Government are over influenced by current events here. Any Government who have presided over the economic policy of the past two-and-a-half years and continually justified their own actions with reference to levels of interest rates and financial stability will undoubtedly be motivated to downplay the growth and employment objective in the Financial Policy Committee’s considerations. However, in the longer view this is surely a mistake. Under the Bill as currently constructed, the Financial Policy Committee could cite the financial stability of a persistent recession as evidence that the objective has been met—stability, but the stability of the economic grave.
How much better that the Financial Policy Committee should take a balanced and mature view of the relationship between financial stability and growth and employment? I am confident that, if we get the right people in place, the committee will be able to take that mature view and would much better serve the overall financial stability strategy of the Bank. My noble friend’s amendment would achieve this and it deserves both serious consideration and support. I beg to move.
Lord Deben
I am distressed that the Minister should feel that on the previous occasion I suggested that he would be other than magnanimous, for he is always magnanimous. I speak in his support because we have to be very careful about constantly adding all the good things that we might like to have taken into account in all circumstances. Financial stability in these circumstances is exactly what we should be saying first and we refer to the other, perfectly rightly, because it is necessary. I find it incredible that any committee, in any circumstance, would get up and say it thinks it is a frightfully good idea to have the stability of total sterility. I do not understand where the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, really thinks that anybody would come to that conclusion. This seems a totally unnecessary amendment and I hope very much that the Minister will refuse it.
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, I feel positively disturbed by this amendment. I am far more concerned that ultimately we will have to resist the optimism and buy-in to “all is going well, let’s take the leash off”, and the erosion of regulation and structural protection. It is important that financial stability should be the primary objective for the Financial Policy Committee. It was important to add the economic growth objective to sit alongside it, but in a secondary role—to say that if the requirements for financial stability are met, the committee should make sure that, alongside and within that, economic growth has the chance to take place. That is an appropriate balance, which has been achieved by earlier amendments to this Bill.
To pull away that protection now and put us back exactly where we were—perhaps I may say, under the last Labour Government—would suggest that people have not learnt their lessons. That is the great fear: we have a crisis and people immediately react to counter the crisis. However, my goodness, our memory is short. As soon as times become good, it is very hard for a regulator to continue to impose constraint and manage risk. It is absolutely crucial that we make clear that this is meant to be a permanent feature of the Financial Policy Committee, not just a feature for now.
Lord Deben
The noble Lord really must not interpret what I said in a way that is convenient for his argument and then blame the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, for speeches that I have certainly heard and with which I agree. All I am saying is that the noble Lord’s idea that somehow or other, unless this is in here, nobody will take any notice of growth at all and that everyone will want a kind of sterile system is just not true. Nor is it sensible.
Lord Sassoon
I really do not want to prolong this too long, but the idea that somehow financial stability is the same as a sustainable fiscal position is really stretching the concepts a bit far. However, there we are.
Financial Services Bill
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Lord Flight
My Lords, Amendments 183A and 187A seek to restore the existing 28-day period for representations for principal parties and third parties. I hope that the Government will not have a problem with accepting that as a small step towards ensuring that justice is done. Amendments 185A and 186 are rather more fundamental as they seek to limit the very wide powers that the Bill presently gives with regard to the publication of warning notices.
I am not sure why it has not been included in this group of amendments but subsequently we shall come to Amendment 187AA in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, which potentially has the whole solution to the issue that I raise by providing for an independent judicial body and process for each regulator. At present, the amendment in the Bill to Section 391 will enable the PRA and FCA to publish details of their allegations immediately they are issued to individuals or firms, which seems to me to be unfair for two fundamental reasons. First, the allegations could be mistaken in fact and, if not mistaken, they could be one-sided. I think it is unfair for a regulator to publish such allegations when the individual or firm has no equally authoritative platform from which to respond. Secondly, there is the position of a senior manager; a business could become completely untenable where such a notice is issued.
Under FiSMA at present, the FSA is not able to publish its allegations against a firm or individual until they have had an opportunity to challenge them by meeting the FSA’s enforcement division. Effectively, that means appearing before the Regulatory Decisions Committee, which acts as a relatively independent judicial body. It seems wrong in principle for an individual or organisation to be publicly labelled guilty before there has been some form of independent judicial process to assess the matter. Stakeholders can also be unfairly affected. I cite the fall of 25% in Standard Chartered’s share price when something similar happened in the USA and the New York regulator gave advance notice of publicly alleged wrongdoings by Standard Chartered. It is not just the individuals or organisations that are affected but the pension funds and others who are shareholders.
The Treasury’s justification that:
“The new warning notices power is a good idea because it will increase transparency. This will mean that consumers will know at an earlier stage where things are going wrong with a firm or individual and the FCA is taking action”,
seems to me to ignore or to override the principles of natural justice and the wider interests of other stakeholders. It was particularly ironic that both the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Governor of the Bank of England should have complained about the Standard Chartered case when the FSB contains very similar provisions which will enable the same sort of thing to happen in the UK. I grant that the positions are not absolutely analogous but they are pretty similar.
The protections in the Bill are also unlikely to be effective. While the regulator is obliged to consult with the person or organisation to whom a warning notice is given and not to publish such notices if they are deemed to be unfair or prejudicial to the interests of consumers or detrimental to the stability of the UK’s financial system, the Bill is not clear as to what are the requirements to consult and it is implicit that in the event of disagreement between the regulator and the recipient as to publication, the regulator will have the power to go ahead and publish. It would be analogous to introduce a power to publicise the stage in the process which otherwise remains private until after the regulatory decisions committee has decided whether or not to issue a decision notice. Also, unlike the USA regulators in the UK have statutory immunity and cannot be sued if they have wrongly caused a damaging impact on a business as a result of their actions.
The position of the regulatory decisions committee is crucial. It is not a creature of statute but rather the system which the FSA has evolved and adopted. There is no obligation under the Bill for the FSA or PRA to adopt the regulatory decisions committee model. The Government’s proposed amendment erodes the independence of the decision-making body. While the actual decision to publish must be taken by at least one person not directly involved in establishing the evidence on which a decision is based, other decision-makers can participate who have been directly involved in the underlying investigation. I fear that is not very far from the investigators taking the decision where the Government’s proposed amendments to the existing law appear to allow the existing safeguards to be substantially bypassed. This in turn throws up the risk that a decision made by a body which includes individuals who have been involved in gathering the evidence on which it is based could be challenged by an affected party as being contrary to the principles of natural justice that no man may be a judge in his own case. Parallels have also been made with bringing charges in criminal proceedings which are public, but the code for crown prosecutors imposes a far higher standard of proof that there is sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction than the much lower standard of proof for a regulator issuing a warning notice.
It seems that in focusing on the value of transparency, the Treasury has ignored the equally important issues both of natural justice and of third-party stakeholder interests in business. I hope the Standard Chartered case will serve to highlight the dangers of this approach and to change the Treasury’s mind here.
Lord Deben
My Lords, I declare an interest as a board member of a company which might be affected by this and also as chairman of the Association of Independent Financial Advisers. It means I know a bit about what is happening here and it concerns me very considerably. The proposal is that the public will know more but I do not think that they will. It has been shown that the public will assume that if no reference has been made, then everything must be all right. Recent examples have shown that the regulator has failed to know what is going on inside organisations. If a regulator says that there may be something wrong, the public will know that there may be, but the public will assume that if the regulator does not say that, everything is all right. So I am not at all sure that there is an extension of transparency.
There is a big problem for the Government. This Bill was introduced at the same time as the Civil Aviation Bill. I listened carefully to everything that the Minister said on the Civil Aviation Bill. Very simply, he said that they were introducing all kinds of ways in which people who were affected by the regulators would be able to appeal. They would be able to make sure that they were heard, and certainly they would not be criticised before evidence had been laid. All the arguments that my noble friend made were stated in defence of the changes in the Civil Aviation Bill—yet at precisely the same time we produce this Bill, which removes all the things that we put into the Civil Aviation Bill. The Government cannot have it both ways. Either it is right for the Civil Aviation Bill and for this Bill, or it is not right for either. This is why the House of Commons has asked us to be so careful about this. It is very concerned.
There is also a question of parallels in criminal proceedings. This is a very odd argument. The reason that the police announce publicly that they are proceeding to prosecution or considering prosecution is to protect the person who is being prosecuted, so that they do not suddenly disappear. It is done as a protection of the individual against whom an allegation is made. In many other systems it has been shown that if you do not do that, people get themselves into circumstances that no one else knows about. The police in this country have to be transparent not for the general public but for the individual concerned. The situation is wholly different for financial institutions with which we are dealing. If it is said in advance that the regulator is considering action, in the world in which we live people will make immediate assumptions; the pinks will be out immediately with all the comments that one would expect. Is this fair? I think not.
Certainly there are too many examples of regulators getting it wrong—as well as too many examples the other way round when they did not intervene and got it wrong. It is much better to have a system in which the regulator goes as far as he can to establish the truth before he makes public an allegation, particularly in a country where the regulator is protected by law. If we were in a country where the regulator could be sued, that would be different—but we are not. We have a system—I agree with it—in which the regulator is able to make such allegations without any fear. I do not think that that is acceptable. It is not acceptable in terms of natural law. Therefore, it is crucial that this House defends and protects people.
This argument comes from someone who has been more critical than most of the financial services industry, and who has been critical of regulators for not intervening rather than for intervening. Therefore I am on the right side, in terms of the Government, but one should not win these battles by shortcuts—and this is a shortcut. It does not achieve anything because if it is right that an investigation should take place and that somebody should be put on notice that they are to be investigated, that is done just as well in private hands as in public—and if the charge is true it will become public. If it turns out to be something that it is necessary for the world to know, it will be known. The idea that it should be known before one knows whether it is necessary or not is not an acceptable position.
Although I have declared an interest in this, my real interest is that I have fought in this House—as I did in the other House—for the rule of law. Part of the rule of law is that nobody shall be judged guilty until they are proved guilty. The problem with this change is that it is unparalleled and not applied in any other industry, and it ends up with people being assumed to be guilty until they can prove their innocence. The length of time that the regulator takes to work means that many people will never be able to prove their innocence because they will already have gone bust. We have not recognised how serious this measure would be for companies. It is not a fair way of proceeding and it is not justified. Frankly, the regulator has not given a single example of when having this power would have improved regulation. I asked but no answer came—all I got was a statement that it will be useful. That is not a satisfactory answer for the removal of a human right.
I very much hope that the Minister will understand there is very considerable unhappiness about this; it is unnecessary and it is to act here in a way that I have not seen in any—any—legislation brought before this House since this Government took office. I would therefore like to know why what is sauce for the goose is not sauce for this particular gander. Could we please have an absolute example—even one—of a case in recent years in which this power would have helped the cause of justice? If we cannot, it seems to me likely that the cause of justice will not be helped at all.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
The assumption is—it has been said a number of times—“What if it is proved wrong?”. However, many, if not most, of these will be proved right, and that transparency surely will be of enormous benefit to consumers and investors in a way that I hope to demonstrate.
Lord Deben
Every time it is proved wrong it will undermine the proving of right. Since when have we had a system whereby one says, “Because many people are guilty but have not yet been proved guilty, we shall assume that they are guilty”? That is what will happen if you say it only on the word of the investigator and there is no concept even of a CPS.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
Perhaps the noble Lords will let me make my case and explain that. As was suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Flight, the purpose of my amendment in the next group is to address this issue and I hope that it will get support from across the House. It is about a different way of dealing with this and bringing to that independence a much higher hurdle for exactly the reasons that noble Lords have been talking about. I hope that when we come to that amendment it will receive wide support because I share the view about a greater degree of independence and separateness being needed. Nevertheless, transparency is a particularly important issue which we, as consumer representatives, feel was very restricted by Section 348 of FiSMA and the FSA’s interpretation of this. I shall in a moment explain why we do not support the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Flight, in the present group.
Amendment 185B concerns warning notices in respect of procedures and referrals to tribunals and other issues. It would remove the requirement to consult with those about to be named before any warning notice is published. I find it hard to see why this requirement is in the Bill. It does not affect other walks of life. In criminal cases, ordinary people do not get consulted before they are arrested or charged but their names will be released. “Consultation”, I fear, is code for, “Let the lawyers loose”—I apologise to noble Lords who are lawyers—and risks injunctions, stalling and long legal arguments. Why should the person who is to be named be given special rights? If it is right to publish, why should there be a block on publication? I hope the Minister will be able to justify that, given that tremendous consultation goes on already with the firm involved before one is even at the stage of a warning notice.
On the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Flight, as I say, we have sympathy with bits of them because of the lack of a second eye, independence and separateness, if you like, from the investigators within the regulation. The Bill empowers the regulators to publish the fact that a warning notice has been issued. This is of particular interest to the issue of misleading financial promotions. For consumers, it is a significant increase in transparency to know which ads have not only been looked at by the regulator but have been seen to be sufficiently misleading for consumers to know that an ad—which they may still have; they may have cut it out of a magazine or remember it from the television and it may still influence their purchase of a product—is under review. There could be considerable consumer detriment if the ad is still in their minds and they have not had a signal that the regulator is worried by it. That is one of the most important things to consumers.
At an earlier stage of the Bill, the Government were not motivated to accept our worries about reliance on “buyer beware”—caveat emptor—but how can consumers shop around if the ads on which they are basing their choice of products are perhaps going through what can be quite a lengthy procedure? It can take very many months, and an advertising campaign can be quite short, and all that time consumers do not know that procedures are taking place that might affect their choice of product.
In other areas, we know fairly quickly. If action is taken against a food factory suspected of contaminating food, we as consumers want to know immediately, and the Food Standards Agency lets us know straightaway when it is taking action. Similarly, if a garage had fixed a coach’s brakes and was accused of doing it less than satisfactorily—some of us are grandparents—I would not want my grandchild to be on a coach where the garage was already up before the Health and Safety Executive for not having done repair work properly. Similarly, as a shareholder, I would want to know whether BP did have some liability for pollution in the Gulf of Mexico before I parted with money to invest in that company.
There can be ongoing detriment if serious accusations are made and the people involved in parting with their money, as consumers or investors, do not know about it. I am not sure it was right that we heard nothing about LIBOR and the behaviour of banks until that first case was settled. Was it right that Equitable Life went on selling products even when there was a case pending? Many of the difficulties that arose were consequences of that ongoing sale. The first time these names came out there would be a lot of coverage in the press, but once we got over that hurdle—once we had got used to it and grown up—consumers are quite able to know the difference between an accusation and a finding. Keeping those hearings in the dark is quite against consumer interest.
We hope that the Government will not accept these amendments, but that in the next group they will be rather more sympathetic to a different approach to dealing with how these decisions are taken. For the moment, I hope that they can support my amendment but hold fire on the others.
Lord Deben
I hope the Minister remarked in my comments that my major criticism of regulators was that they did not intervene in a whole series of areas where they should have. My argument was that if it is in the public arena when they do intervene, the public will be even more convinced, as the history shows, that everything else is going okay. In fact, the regulator has fallen down again and again. Many of the worst examples—the ones that he and I would be most cross about—are those where the regulator has not intervened.
Lord Sassoon
Perhaps my noble friend could listen to the argument. He said that he has asked for examples on a number of occasions but there has not been a single case where the FSA could say, “This would have been a useful power”. I have a long list of examples that the FSA could no doubt have given him. It includes the Winterflood market abuse case, where it tackled an illegal share ramping scheme, with warning notices issued in April 2007 but decision notices not issued until June 2008; the case of Gary Lester, a fraudulent mortgage broker, in 2008 to 2010; the Swift Trade market abuse case; and Atlantic Law and Greystoke. I could go on. I am sorry if my noble friend has been led to believe that there are no examples. The FSA can certainly give me examples. Of course it is important that there should be examples.
I have made one or two remarks about the general situation—which is that the Government believe that a new power is merited and that we need to recognise that we are trying to deal with detriment to the users of financial services here while affording proper protections to market participants. However, before I come back to some broader points, let me address the amendments themselves.
The first two amendments, Amendments 183A and 187A, seek to reverse a very specific change that the Bill makes to FiSMA, namely shortening the period for making representations after a warning notice has been issued from 28 to 14 days. We made this change in close consultation with the regulator, which noted that in many cases the 28-day window is not required at all. This may be because a case is straightforward and does not require such a long time for representations to be put together, because a person admits to the contravention or because that person does not respond at all. In such cases, having a mandatory 28-day period has the effect of unnecessarily slowing down the overall enforcement process, which is not in the interest of credible deterrence and the regulator’s efficient use of its time and resource. That is why we have moved to a starting point of 14 days.
I fully agree that firms should have adequate time to make representations. Although 14 days is the new minimum, it is important to note that it remains at the regulator’s discretion to specify a longer period—for example where it knows a case is particularly complex. The regulator may decide to extend the period from the outset. The decision whether to extend the period will of course be governed by the principles of natural justice and Article 6 of the European Convention on Human Rights concerning the right to a fair trial. I hope that that gives some reassurance to my noble friend on the narrow point; that is, it is not a blanket 14 days.
I am conscious that, in moving to the wider issue, we risk straying into the areas covered by the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter of Kentish Town, which we are going to debate next, but I repeat that my starting point is very much the same as that of the noble Baroness; namely, we need to provide the regulators with this new power but to make sure that it operates proportionately.
Amendments 185A, 185B and 186 are all concerned with the new power for the regulators to disclose the fact that they have issued a warning notice in respect of disciplinary action to a firm or individual. Amendment 186 probes an important issue relating to the disclosure of warning notices; namely, whether the new power should apply in respect of individuals or approved persons. There are two reasons why we included warning notices issued under Section 67 in the list in new subsection (1ZB). First, the warning notices concern what are very clearly disciplinary matters, relating as they do to contraventions or knowing involvement in rule breaches or contraventions of EU requirements, so it is consistent that they should be included here. Secondly, it is important to remember that this is a power, not a duty, and that the regulators will be required to consider whether disclosure would be unfair to the person concerned.
Amendment 185B seeks to remove the requirement to consult from the power. I recognise that allowing warning notices to be disclosed is a major step change in regulation. It must be underpinned by proper procedures and safeguards. Consultation with the firm or individual concerned is key, because it is an important way in which the regulator can assess whether disclosure would be unfair and consider the possible impact of its actions. But I want to be clear that a requirement to consult the person affected does not mean that the FCA needs to seek their consent. That is clear and there is no getting away from it.
Amendment 185A seeks to delete the entire new power and revert to the current arrangements in FiSMA. I restate that the power to disclose warning notices is a key part of our vision for the FCA. It enables the FCA to regulate in a more proactive and preventative way. I have given a number of examples where, in its judgment, these powers would have made a difference in the past. They make transparency and disclosure a key pillar of its regulatory approach and enable it to have a credible enforcement function and deterrence strategy.
I do not agree with my noble friend Lord Flight about the read-across from the Standard Chartered case. I certainly agree with him and my noble friend Lord Deben—my noble friend Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts also touched on this—that there are real dangers in terms of the knock-on consequences which the FSA and the FCA will have to take into account, but that general proposition, which of course the regulators in the UK will have to take account of, does not make valid a direct comparison with the Standard Chartered case in the US. The power proposed in this Bill is substantially different in scope, safeguards and proposed application from the power used by the New York DFS in respect of Standard Chartered. I think that my noble friend recognises some differences, but our analysis is that the safeguards are materially different. So, yes, the FCA will have to take into consideration the impact of its notices, but I do not agree that we should pray in aid the specific details of the Standard Chartered case. It is important to be reminded and have on the record what my noble friends say—which is correct. For listed companies in particular, the share prices can and will react very negatively in these circumstances. If subsequently it happens with tax announcements that are somehow back-tracked and have been over the years by HMRC or the Treasury, the first effect on a share price is often much more negative than subsequently, when some decision or tax policy announcement is reversed. I take that point and I am sure that the FCA will be very mindful of it as it makes those decisions in the future.
A number of other points have been made by noble Lords. As to the more specific challenge of my noble friend Lord Deben about what would happen if the regulator got it wrong, there is a general danger which the regulator needs to bear in mind before putting out a notice. Where the regulator decides to take no further action after it has made public the fact that it has published a warning notice, it has discretion to publish the fact that it has issued a notice of discontinuance if the person to whom the warning notice relates consents to that issue. Where the regulator has made public the fact that it has issued a warning notice but then decides that a case will not proceed to a decision notice, it will also make public the fact that a notice of discontinuance has been issued.
There are various other questions about delay and injunctions. I do not agree that the power as drafted will cause overall delays to the enforcement process. The Bill does not require publication of the warning notice or of a decision whether or not to be published to be taken, challenged or appealed et cetera in order for the enforcement process to keep going. The only delay will be to the publication rather than to the action itself. That may not have been the point that the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter of Kentish Town, was making, but just to be clear: if it was, the underlying enforcement process keeps on going.
Of course, the FCA might face injunctions to prevent publication and that is part of the protection in the injunction process. We also stress that, without a requirement to consult the firm or individual in question, it is more likely that that firm would seek emergency injunctions preventing publication as a knee-jerk reaction. Therefore, we have the consultation duty and the final decision is taken by the FCA. There could be an injunction process, but we think that the right balance has been struck.
I could go on for a long time on this, but let me conclude. I hope that my noble friends will listen to the next bit, because I hear that, although we believe this is an important power, the question is whether it will be exercised properly and whether any further protection is needed. We are taking a bold new step in an untested direction and it has to be used responsibly. For that reason—and listening to this debate—I can say that we intend to return to this issue on Report in this one very specific way: that is, to make provision for a power for the Government to repeal the new warning notices power if at some point in the future the Treasury considers that the power or use of it by the regulators is, or may be, contrary to the public interest. This does not weaken in any way our commitment to this policy, or our belief that if used responsibly, which we expect it to be, the new power will form a vital part of the FCA’s regulatory toolkit.
I hope that what I have just said provides my noble friend with some reassurance that we will be mindful that the power is used in a responsible way which is in the interests of the greater good. Should that not be the case, we will act under a power which we intend to bring forward on Report.
Lord Sharkey
Will the Minister clarify a point in sub-paragraph (3)(b) of paragraph 28 in Schedule 9, which would survive whether or not the amendments of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, were accepted? The sub-paragraph adds to the sentence in FiSMA the words,
“, or by 2 or more persons who include a person not directly involved in establishing that evidence”.
The whole paragraph now reads:
“That procedure must be designed to secure, among other things, that the decision which gives rise to the obligation to give any such notice is taken by a person not directly involved in establishing the evidence on which that decision is based, or by 2 or more persons who include a person not directly involved in establishing that evidence”.
FiSMA already permits a procedure that allows, in certain circumstances, the decision to issue a notice to be made solely by a person directly involved in establishing the evidence on which that decision is based. Why has the Minister felt it necessary to change this? Why, in particular, regularly allow the decision to issue a notice to be made by a person directly involved in establishing the evidence for the notice if he or she can persuade just one other person to agree? Does he have a particular type of case or set of circumstances in mind that would make this desirable or necessary, or is there some now apparent defect in the current regime as exemplified within the FSA by the Regulatory Decisions Committee?
Lord Deben
I hesitate to return to the previous discussion, but I just remark to the Minister that his whole list of examples of what this might have prevented of course misses the point. My point was that we could have done all those things with the RDC. The real question is: who makes that decision? I have never had an explanation of why it is necessary to have a power that is never referred to any independent group. That is all I am interested in and I feel very strongly about it. We have recently been trying to complete a very valuable thing called “treating customers fairly”. I want all customers to be treated fairly, and I entirely agree with the speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, who is absolutely right.
I say to the Minister very personally and directly that when one of those most likely to be a senior regulator tells the industry that he intends to shoot first and ask questions later, he should understand why the industry has some concerns. That is all I say. All I am asking is that before such a decision is made, there should be reference to an independent body, and I think that the proposals put forward—albeit, as the noble Baroness rightly said, that they might need a little tweaking here and there—would seem to everyone to be fair.
We have the same situation—parallels have often been drawn—in police prosecution when someone outside asks whether this is a proper circumstance and whether it is likely to stand up. That is all that is necessary. Do that and most of us, I think, would be perfectly happy. Our issue is that, without making things more difficult in these debates, there are too many examples of decisions made that appeared to be hasty and when people have not looked too carefully at the details. This would make sure that they do.
All I say to the Minister is that he would have pretty overwhelming support for the changes that he wants if he were prepared to do what the noble Baroness has put forward. I would certainly be happy to argue that. If he does not do that, this will be difficult to support, and I am interested in the point that my noble friend has just made that there seems to have been an attempt to move even further away from what we should have.
I have one other point. The key thing is that the murmurings that somehow the RDC will disappear would be overcome by having this measure in the Bill. It is not unreasonable to have the concerns that people have, and I have not yet seen why introducing this measure would make things more difficult or less transparent. I would be happy to take the risk of people being warned and turning out to be guiltless, if it were done with this degree of protection. Then the Minister would have us all on his side.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
My Lords, I am extremely disappointed. We come back to “may” and “must”, which my noble friend mentioned. He has just had a birthday and he is still talking about “may” and “must”. If the FSA had not put on its website that it would not continue with this, perhaps our trust that it would continue with the RDC would be greater.
I confess that I have some form on this. In 1981, I worked on a Royal Commission on criminal procedure which tried to persuade the police that they should take their cases to an independent prosecutor. The Committee will not be surprised to hear that they did not want that to happen. In the Labour Party, it used to be the NEC that took cases against individuals. We were taken to court and told that we could not do that, so I ended up on the disciplinary committee to ensure that that was separate and independent of the National Executive Committee of the Labour Party. The barristers did not get it right and for a time the Bar Council used to use the same body to discipline its members and was taken to court. It had to set up the BSB complaints committee—that is another declaration of interest as my partner was vice chair or something of that—to ensure that there was that independence among the people who were presenting the cases and those hearing them. Whether there are two panels—one to see whether there is a case to answer and one to hold a hearing—is an issue of detail which I did not go into. I think that is for regulator. To trust the regulator, who is, if you like, the prosecutor—I do not like using the word “prosecutor” but perhaps we can bear it for the moment—to decide what sort of committee will challenge its evidence, seems to me not quite the correct way to approach this.
Lord Deben
One might go as far as that had it not been for two facts: one, to which the noble Baroness refers, is the website; and the other is the fact that a senior person, who is likely to be a regulator, said that his policy was to shoot first and ask questions later. That severely worries people. Whatever happened in the past, we need to remove doubt. As the Minister suggested that it does not really make any difference because he expects that to happen, I cannot see why it would make any difference if you were sure that would happen.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
I could not have put it better, although I quite like to shoot first and ask questions after, but that is just a personal preference. As my noble friend Lord Barnett has said, there is clear support for this around the House. We are obviously going to bring it back at the next stage. If it is easier for the Minister, perhaps someone not from this side but from his side could put his or her name to the amendment. But for confidence in this type of independence it seems clear that the decision cannot be in the hands of the regulator who is also the presenter. There should be some guarantee that it is an independent body. I am extremely worried that someone who has been investigating could also be the decision-maker. That seems to go quite differently from other groups. So I am afraid we will return to this but for the moment I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Sunday Trading (London Olympic and Paralympic Games) Bill [HL]
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Lord Cormack
No Member of either House of Parliament can ever speak for anyone other than him or herself, but one can try very hard to reflect feelings and to acknowledge desires, ambitions and aspirations in the country. I believe that there was something very precious about a day of the week when the pace was slower. I opposed the relaxation of restrictions on Sunday trading because I felt that we would then finish up with a replica Saturday—a high-street Sunday. One has only to drive into London, as I did from King’s Cross on Sunday of this very week, to see what has happened. The streets are full of people out shopping, and the peace, the quiet and the opportunity to reflect has gone. I believe that we have lost something in that.
I am not so stupid as to suggest that all those who flock to the shops would be flocking to the churches if the shops were not there. Of course not, but I believe that a slackening of the tempo of life is good. When people come to this country to enjoy the countryside or to go round our great cities and small villages, I like them to be able to understand the tempo of English and British life. That is no longer possible in the way that it was and I regret that. I think it would be a good thing if those who came to watch the Olympic Games this year—and they will come in their thousands or perhaps millions—could have an opportunity to experience the tempo of life in this country as it was. I remember very well—
Lord Cormack
In a moment. I remember very well indeed the 1948 Olympics when this was a very different country. It was a country recovering from war; a country with a real pride in itself because of what it had gone through. It really shared in the triumph of the athletes who were competing for one reason above all others—in many cases, for one reason only—their love of sport and competition, not for a love of commerce. Of course, I will give way.
Lord Deben
I am finding it difficult as my noble friend is a member of a party that would not force anything on people. I do not understand why they should be forced to have a slow Sunday. I must say that I enjoy Sundays but I want to be able to buy things if I want to. I do not see why he should tell me what to do on Sundays. It is a peculiar kind of conservatism.
Lord Cormack
My noble friend has not heard very much of this debate; he came in only about a quarter of an hour ago. I am not trying to force him to do anything, or not to do anything. I am saying that we had in this country a certain pattern of life, just as France and other countries have a pattern of life. It is part of the very fabric of the civilisation of the country and we have discarded it to our cost—and a considerable cost at that.
I am worried by the legislation this evening, which of course will go through. There is not much point in tabling amendments, much as I would like to restrict the openings to the Olympic areas. What worries me is that it will be the thin end of the wedge. I do not for a moment doubt the honesty of my noble friends and my right honourable and honourable friends in government who say that it is for eight weeks only, but there will be increased pressure after the eight weeks to make it permanent. I really regret that.
I know that we cannot go back to the Olympics that were immortalised in “Chariots of Fire” where even some of the athletes would not train on Sundays. Of course, we cannot go back to that, but we can at least recognise that we may have lost something. I do not want to lose too much more, so I ask my noble friend, who will wind up, to please recognise that what he is doing is not necessarily for the common good. I believe that my noble friend made a mistake when he talked of the enormous retail opportunities as if that were something really tremendous. We have become so commercially focused and dominated in our daily lives that we have lost a great deal of what made this country great. This is an opportunity to make these points. The noble Lord, Lord Glasman, made similar ones. He and I spoke in the debate some months ago when we were trying to persuade the Government to make Remembrance Sunday a day when the cash tills did not ring. It is for reasons not dissimilar to those that make us have misgivings about the legislation that is currently before the House.
I ask my noble friend, when he is talking to colleagues in government who have given assurances, to tell them that there are many in all parts of this House who feel that it would be a retrograde step if this led to a general further relaxation of restrictions, not least because of the shop workers and not least—the point made by my noble friend Lady Berridge—because of the smaller shops. Somebody talked about Mary Portas. One of the things that she has frequently commented on has been the gradual extinction of the smaller shops in the high street at the expense of the big chain stores. That has meant that the individual identity of towns has been eroded in many cases, and totally destroyed in others. My home town where I was born many years ago used to have a wonderful Victorian centre but now all it has is a precinct with chain stores. We want to be able to protect our small and individual stores and this is not necessarily the right way of going about it.
I shall not oppose the Bill by seeking to cause a Division. That would be ridiculous. Nor shall I move any amendments on Thursday because the Bill will go through. I just want to share with the House, and in particular with my noble friend and those in Government, the fact that some of us have real worries and proper misgivings, which are honestly founded, sincerely held and are in no sense inimical to the conservatism which I believe in and which values traditions perhaps above all.
Scotland Bill
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Lord Sanderson of Bowden
I have no doubt that my noble friend on the Front Bench will have a note that says “resist”. However, the whole principle of the Barnett formula has to be dealt with. There is no time like the present to make a start, so the Government have to set up a consultation. I hear what my noble friend Lord Steel says—that it will be difficult to implement quickly—but it is not going to be implemented quickly if I know the workings of commissions. It will take time.
As a former Minister in the Scottish Office who benefited undoubtedly from the terms of the Barnett formula, I know only too well that it is a very difficult thing to defend when you are talking to Welsh Ministers and others in England. The noble Lord, Lord Barnett, is quite right to bring forward this amendment at this time. I have no doubt that it is something that the Government may not wish to include in the terms of this Bill, but that is no excuse for not giving us a clear assurance that they will start work on this whole business, which has been so detrimental to the situation for so long.
Lord Deben
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, said that he had to apologise for speaking in this debate as he was not a Scot. One sadness of this whole Bill has been that it has been a private discussion among Scots when it has a huge effect on the whole of the United Kingdom. I have intervened on occasion for that reason, as a self-appointed supporter of the rest of the United Kingdom, not just of England but of Wales, where I have close connections. This is why I want to intervene on this particular issue.
The Government have to be extremely careful about this issue, not just because of what is happening in Scotland but because of the deep abiding anger in England about how the formula operates. Noble Lords have before them a Member of Parliament who for 35 years had to explain to the people of Suffolk that we had a formula that operated in a way that meant that every year they did proportionately less fairly because of the use of this mechanism. In England and Scotland, the word fair is very important. This was not an anti-Scottish view; it was a view about fairness and about how the United Kingdom should operate.
It is particularly difficult for those defending the position in Wales. In the Principality, this formula acts so unfairly that it distorts the ability of any Government, coalition or Labour or whoever, to explain their policies. Their policies affect Wales differently not because they mean them to but because the provision is different. So we need to look at this from a United Kingdom point of view, which is why I have huge sympathy for my noble friend who proposed the view that the amendment is too limited in its demand that we should look at the situation as it affects Scotland. This is a united kingdom. The real trouble with the party-political structure in Britain is that those who call themselves unionists have never been unionists; they have always sought a kind of half-arrangement or side deal, which never faces up to the reality of the union, which should be to benefit every part of the union because people belonged to it. That is why we are increasingly divorced—because increasingly we do not know what happens in other parts of the union, as anyone knows if they listen to the “Today” programme in Scotland and compare it to what they might have heard in England. The fact is that we do not know what goes on in Scotland, because we do not have that information, nor do the people in Scotland have much of the information that would be extremely helpful to make a proper balance.
I intervene today because this is a serious matter for this United Kingdom. Unless we learn to talk unionism as a whole, we might win a referendum and then lose the peace, if I may put it like that, because we will then continue the same old stuff: dividing off the countries of the United Kingdom and letting them get on with it, as far as we can manage it, because it is too troublesome to make unionism work.
For that reason, I believe that we need to have an absolutely clear promise from the Government that there will be a proper, independent investigation—not a half or quarter investigation, and not just a Scottish, Welsh, English or Northern Irish view—to come up with a mechanism, based on need, which will enable us to have a system. I agree with my noble friend Lord Forsyth that it may be over 20 years. However, I want a system which can be defended in Wickham Market and in Dorchester as well as in Llanelli and in the north of Scotland instead of the present formula, which cannot, could not and will never be able to be defended anywhere, except to those people who know that it delivers to them something out of all proportion to what it delivers to other people.
A formula which can only be defended in front of those who benefit from it is no formula at all. That is why this is a much more serious debate than the Government have so far been prepared to face up to, and I hope that the Minister will have no moderate, calming or comfortable words. I want a real promise that this will be done, and be done forthwith.
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard
My Lords, I disagree with the noble Lord, “Lord Barnett of Formula”. I have never disagreed with him before. I used to write briefs for him and he never paid the slightest attention to them. He was a brilliant Chief Secretary who did not bother about the arguments but simply explained that there was no money, which was a much better argument than any of the ones that I produced.
I disagree with putting this new clause in the Bill for the reasons that have just been given. I disagree with looking at it in a Scottish-only context. I confess that I had forgotten the report of the committee of the noble Lord, Lord Richard, but I disagree with the kind of criteria that the noble Lord, Lord Lang, was reminding us of. That on its own is not enough. Periphery and distance matter. I do not know of any state that I have lived in—France, America—where distance is not a factor. The purity of the position taken by the noble Lord, Lord Deben, does not really work. If you have an extremely sparse population on highlands and islands, the cost of communications and that sort of thing is much higher. That sort of need may well be built in to the formula that the noble Lord, Lord Richard, is talking about, but it is not just criteria such as poverty: it is the problem of dealing with poverty, which is more difficult if people are on a distant island. I do not know who to give way to first.
Lord Deben
As my purity has been called into question, I would like to say that it is a purity that demands that we do something that recognises sparsity and the difficulty of reaching people. The trouble is that this new clause recognises it in Scotland but not in Wales; that is what is wrong with it.
Baroness Rawlings
My Lords, I remind your Lordships that on Report a Member may speak only once, excepting for a short question of elucidation to the Minister, as I have said.
Autumn Forecast
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Lord Sassoon
I am grateful to my noble friend for pointing out the changed direction of travel since the new Government came in. I do not want to wade into a Cambridge argument. As a mere Oxford man, I always found my economics professors rather more cheery in their outlook, but perhaps my memory is clouded.
Lord Deben
Will my noble friend not allow the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, to get away with the idea that this year is Labour’s year? The fundamental change is that we have confidence; under them, we would not have had confidence. We would not have been able to pay our bills and we would have found ourselves in much the same position as Ireland.
Lord Sassoon
I am very grateful to my noble friend; his analysis is absolutely right.