Commercial Vehicles: Safety

Lord Deben Excerpts

Wednesday 19th March 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

To the serious point that the noble Lord raises, the Government are continuing to modernise the requirements for vehicles on British roads and are continuing to insist on the trajectory to zero-emission vehicles, for obvious reasons. In fact, contrary to the implication of what he says, that was started by the previous Government. On a more jocular note, neither the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, nor I need to add to the traffic around Parliament Square, particularly in the past few days.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

The targets having been set up by the previous Government, the present Government should stick to them and give British motor manufacturers certainty about what is going to happen, rather than uncertainty of the kind that has recently been stirred up.

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

We very much welcome the noble Lord’s support in this. It is inevitable that the motor manufacturing industry moves on. Contrary to a lot of the noise, there is great evidence that the translation to zero-emission vehicles and electric vehicles is proceeding. Beneath all that noise, it is quite clear that electric vehicles are catching on and that the manufacturing market needs to carry on in that direction. My own experience of introducing hybrid and electric vehicles is that the one thing that really makes a difference is the continuing purchase in larger and larger numbers, which encourages manufacturers to make the right thing at a lower cost and be successful.

Private Crossings (Signs and Barriers) Regulations 2023

Lord Deben Excerpts

Wednesday 17th January 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Inglewood (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as president of the South Tynedale Railway. Earlier today, in my capacity as chairman of the Cumbria Local Enterprise Partnership, I signed off on its response to the Government’s call for evidence on overregulation, which closed at 4 pm. I put it to the Minister that perhaps the best response to the close of consultation might be to withdraw this proposal and to come back with something that is a bit less mean-spirited and a bit more proportionate.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, I hope that the Minister will not just do that but will recognise that there is already far too much regulation on small railways.

I will refer to the Mid-Suffolk Light Railway, which is a very small railway because it never made any money. Previously, the Member of Parliament for Ipswich invested in it; he went bankrupt and had to resign as a result. He and the railway were foolish enough not to get the wayleave to enable them to link with another railway. Therefore, it went to Ubbeston, a place that is very difficult to find even if you are the Member of Parliament for the constituency—which I was.

I am so excited by the people who work on the railway, repairing and rebuilding engines and coaches. It is a magnificent thing to take one’s grandchildren to. Many an unpleasant afternoon has been lightened for me because we have done that. Just recently, they have managed to buy the land and extend it by some quarter of a mile. That almost doubles the length of the railway. The point I will make is, simply, that the regulations mean that the railway operators must have the same investigation into whether they can run over a quarter of mile as they would if they were running the London to Edinburgh express—that is a nonsense.

I went to the trouble of looking at the regulations, which had so far eluded me, and discovered that they were nonsense. They do not take into account the fascinating and very British thing of maintaining steam railways. I hope that the Minister will not narrow his interest to those that have been raised by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley—important though they are, and supportive of them though I am. We are now in a situation in which one of the most attractive things about our British heritage is under threat: the protection of these railways by people who give their lives to doing things that I would be totally incapable of even beginning to do. They turn absolutely destroyed engines into the most beautiful things steaming along, even though it is but half a mile, to be enjoyed by both children and adults—because most of us are like children in this situation.

The Government have an opportunity here to reform what is a necessary thing. My noble friend and I may have different views about Brexit, but I have to say to him that one of the ways of taking back control is perhaps getting rid of some of the controls which we do not need.

Rail Ticket Offices

Lord Deben Excerpts

Wednesday 12th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, those staff will still be there to help the passenger, whether they be partially sighted or for whatever reason they need help. The noble Lord says that this is about profits but it is not at all, because the costs of running the railways fall to the taxpayer. We need to have a modern seven-day railway and that is what this Government are going to deliver.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, this is a necessary modernisation of the railways but what we have heard is the kind of thing that is argued about any change. The railways do not make money and need to be more modern; we ought to accept this and celebrate it.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I absolutely agree with my noble friend. There have been various interventions with technology over recent years. For example, the addition of gate lines necessarily meant that certain members of staff did not need to check tickets, and that is absolutely right. They can do far more valuable things. It is about helping passengers to get where they need to go, whether they have reduced mobility or not.

Aviation: Cost of Travel

Lord Deben Excerpts

Wednesday 7th December 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

There is a fair opportunity for people to fly in the United Kingdom. Indeed, in the week commencing 27 November, there were 143 flights a day between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. The provision has recovered, demand is back to 2019 levels and it is a competitive market.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

I understand what the noble Baroness said about Northern Ireland because that is divided by sea, but it is very difficult to understand why we have lowered the cost of internal flights when the French have banned theirs on climate change grounds, and why we have very high rail fares instead. Why did we not reduce the rail fares between England and Scotland, not the carbon-intensive air fares?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am sure that my noble friend is aware that, when we reduced domestic air passenger duty, we added a new ultra-long haul distance band to ensure that the revenues to the Exchequer were maintained. It is the case that the Government have stringent and detailed plans in place to decarbonise our aviation sector, and there will be more on that to come.

Railway (Licensing of Railway Undertakings) (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Lord Deben Excerpts

Thursday 21st March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sugg]

I presume that that is the case because we have the two-year implementation period and our future relationship will be subject to negotiations. As I said, our long-term aspiration is to share that information. We think a legal duty is inappropriate, because another authority might refuse to receive information or co-operate, so we would not be able to fulfil that duty.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

Can my noble friend imagine any circumstances whatever in which the British Government would not want to share such information with our neighbours? Why on earth are we talking about negotiation? Of course we will do that and of course they will want to do that with us. What are we talking about?

[Baroness Sugg]

As I said previously, it is absolutely our intention to continue to share information. It is important that we do so, not least because of safety. We will continue to have a very close relationship with our European neighbours, and we very much hope to share the information with them. Obviously, they will have to accept that information from us, but our long-term aspiration is to continue to share it.

Air Passenger Rights and Air Travel Organisers’ Licensing (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018

Lord Deben Excerpts

Tuesday 12th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sugg]

I am afraid I will have to come back to the noble Lord on the exact number of staff who have been taken on. As he will understand, this is a moving feast, and the CAA is taking on extra people to deliver all the requirements that will be placed on it in the event of a no-deal Brexit. But I will endeavour to come back to the noble Lord later in the debate with a specific answer on the latest figure for the number of new staff at the CAA.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

I want to explain to my noble friend why this question is important. Every time we discuss one of these statutory instruments, we do not have the figures for the cost. My concern is that in each individual case it is said, “Well, it is not all that much and somebody is doing some arrangement”, and all the rest of it. But if you start to add them up, you possibly have a very significant cost. That is why it is important that we understand precisely what the figures are.

[Baroness Sugg]

I entirely understand my noble friend’s point of view. Of course it is important that we understand the full costs of this. The CAA is taking on a number of new responsibilities and functions after EU exit. As I said, we have confidence in its preparations. Regarding ATOL—I mentioned the figures before—we think the current level of staff will be able to provide this service, so we do not expect to see a significant increase in workload from this SI. The latest figure for the number of new staff is around 59, most of whom will carry out safety functions. The House will debate another SI on safety, which will have cost implications. I will ensure that I am able to provide actual cost implications for future aviation SIs. In this case, there are none, as we are expecting only a small number.

The best outcome for the UK is to leave the EU with a deal, and delivering a deal negotiated with the EU remains the Government’s top priority. However, as a responsible Government, we must make all reasonable plans to prepare for a no-deal scenario. This instrument ensures that, in the event of a no-deal exit from the EU, passengers travelling by air can continue to benefit from the same rights as they currently do, and that the aviation industry and consumers have clarity about the regulatory framework which would be in place in a no-deal scenario. I beg to move.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, I share the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Deben, and my noble friend Lord Foulkes about the costs associated with Brexit. I recall the debate in this House yesterday about Seaborne Freight. The Minister said, and I am sure she is right, that,

“no taxpayer money has been transferred to the company”.—[Official Report, 11/2/19; col. 1704.]

However, the cost of dredging is probably several million pounds. Apparently it was being done by the Ramsgate harbour authority. I do not know where it will suddenly get the money from; I am sure it was not budgeted for. It was mentioned in another place yesterday that Slaughter and May had been paid £600,000 to advise the Government on how to write these contracts, which turned out to be non-existent. The Minister should commit to giving the House the total cost, rather than hiding behind, “We are not paying it directly because the dredging is being done by somebody else”, or something like that.

I should like to follow up on some of the questions the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, just asked because this SI is very confusing. The first question is: who is a UK carrier? Where will companies such as easyJet and British Airways be registered, and does that matter when defining what is a UK carrier—something that comes into quite a lot of these regulations? Could the Minister tell us not just what is happening today but also how the Government will tell members of the public who is a UK carrier—assuming that it matters? It seems to me that it matters.

On these regulations, there seem to be three different parties: the location of the airport, which may be in this country, the European Union, or a third country—maybe it does not matter; the air service or airline, and whether it is registered in the UK, the EU or a third country, as the noble Baroness mentioned; and who the passenger is. Are they a UK resident, an EU resident, or a third-country resident? There then seem to be different rules for whether you are going out, coming in or getting a return ticket. I do not know whether I am making myself clear—it is probably as unclear as the regulations. The Minister will have to tell us how all these different parts of the regulations I have discussed apply to all those different groups and combinations of groups.

What attracted me to this worry was the phrase,

“if the carrier is a UK carrier”,

in paragraph 7.3 of the Explanatory Memorandum and, in reference to paragraph 7.5, the question of who enforces these regulations. The CAA cannot enforce regulations on airlines from third countries that do not fly into this country at all, but if the CAA does not do it, who will? All these things should affect every traveller who will move by air after 29 March, and I can see some of them getting into real trouble and worrying about this unless there is some clarification. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response.

[Lord Deben]

My Lords, I am sorry to continue this but various people have an interest in this SI. First, there are customers, who I doubt will read this—if they did, I doubt they would get very far with it for the reasons the noble Lord has just adumbrated. Secondly, there are the airlines, and I am very concerned about what our definition will be—not only here but elsewhere—of, for example, a UK-based airline.

I understand that there are airlines such as British Airways which have a direct association—it owns Iberia. British Airways has said that it may well transfer its base of ownership to Spain. I will not make a statement about Brexit—it manifestly gets stupider and stupider as we move on to discuss the matter—but the truth is that this is a real issue. If British Airways decides that that is the decision it has to make because we have been so damaging to our future that that is the best place for it to be, is it any longer a UK-based carrier? We then have a situation in which we are passing an SI that does not actually apply to the largest airline with a single, dedicated terminal at our largest airport. This is a serious issue. I am sure there is a very easy answer to the question, but it is not one that lies to hand in the SI. What happens when or if it changes, and how do we deal with those changes? That also seems important to me.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My noble friend has stolen my peroration. He is absolutely right and said it much better than me. It is a frightening prospect that if nothing is agreed, nothing is approved, by the end of March we will face emergency legislation.

[Lord Deben]

I just wanted to give the noble Lord a chance to rewrite his peroration. Can I ask him very simply, is this what he would define as taking back control?

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

That is an even better peroration. The whole campaign of the leavers was to take back control—if I remember—to the British Parliament, not the British Government. It is not the Government or even the Cabinet, but one person who seems to be ramming it through with some kind of stubbornness and determination. That was not what it was supposed to be about. It was supposed to bring the power back to this Parliament.

I say to my noble friend Lord Adonis, if they try to push it through by emergency legislation that will be a real test of the mettle of every Member of this House, particularly the Cross-Benchers. Are they going to stand up for Parliament, or be subservient to our autocratic Government? That will be the test.

I think I have gone a little bit wider than the statutory instrument and I am grateful for the fact that the Lord Speaker does not have the same powers as the Speaker in another place; otherwise, I might have been ruled out of order by now. I am sorry to be slightly flippant; it is a very serious matter. Coming back to relevance, this one statutory instrument is illustrative of the kind of thing we face in this Parliament at the moment, and it is quite frightening.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Adonis]

It is clearly a cut-and-paste exercise—that is what is going on with most of these regulations. I hope that the statutory instrument committees are drawing attention to this. To be frank, in my view this alone is a reason for your Lordships declining to agree the regulations.

[Lord Deben]

The noble Lord has not pointed out that, in this particular SI, there is no discussion as to whether the people consulted were “selected” or “trusted”. In previous SIs, some of them were “trusted” and some of them “selected”, but none appears to be both “trusted” and “selected”.

Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill

Lord Deben Excerpts

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 5th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Worthington]

My Lords, I shall speak briefly to this group of government amendments. I thank the Minister for listening to our interventions on the topic. At the moment, we do not have good oversight of how the market will develop; we have what I feel is a somewhat unnatural market in infrastructure, as the Government have chosen to focus on charging infrastructure without sufficient attention to whether there are enough cars for people to buy and use affordably to make use of that charging. As a result, we may have boom and bust in the charging infrastructure. We must keep those two important aspects in parallel: both the charging infrastructure and the cars. In the absence of a more natural market with more cars, it is very important that we have the regulations to ensure that where charge points are installed, they are maintained, so I am very grateful to the Minister for tabling the amendments, and fully support their intent.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, I just want to tell my noble friend how helpful I find the amendment and how useful it is. The climate change committee has drawn attention to the fact that one reason for the lack of uptake of such motor cars is people’s feeling that they cannot rely on a charging system to travel around the countryside. The amendment is an important addition to that provision.

However, I remind my noble friend that one issue here is that people are very suspicious of the correctness of the information given to them by the motor car industry generally. Therefore, this support will be invaluable. We are still being told things about motor cars which are not true. The figures being put out for the performance of motor cars—including electric motor cars—are very different from the reality. It is in that atmosphere that the amendment is important.

I hope that the Government will recognise that in other areas in this business, too, regulation is not an imposition but an encouragement. Good regulation is a good thing. We are against bad regulation. In this area, we need regulation that gives people confidence in what is for most of them a very new technology. I thank my noble friend but also urge her to recognise that we need similar support in other areas if we are to get the change which we will need. I remind her that the Government have set far too far a target for the eradication of new petrol and diesel-driven vehicles: 2030 is necessary if we are to meet the fourth and fifth carbon budgets, so there is a real need to get on with things which will encourage people to buy these motor cars.

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, I am grateful for noble Lords’ comments on this. This is a real improvement to the Bill, and the provision of this power will help to ensure that we have a working and reliable charge point infrastructure.

On the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, I agree that this is a slight chicken and egg situation, in that we are not going to get the cars produced if there is no demand for them, and we will not get the demand for them if we do not have the infrastructure for them. It is important that we look at the two aspects in parallel—the manufacturing of cars and the provision of infrastructure.

I thank my noble friend Lord Deben for his comments. There are many provisions in the Bill on information and transparency. I entirely agree that we need to give confidence to consumers in this new area. This Bill is just part of our work as a Government on encouraging the move to zero-emission vehicles. I am going to say it again, but we will soon be publishing the road to zero strategy, which will set out in more detail how we plan to move towards zero-emission vehicles.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Sugg]

Is the noble Lord referring to the granting of wayleaves? We do not think that there is a problem at the moment. After conversations that we have had, we think that wayleaves are granted. They are either resolved between the landowner and the installer or, as I said, there is a resolution mechanism. We have heard of one case that was not able to be sufficiently resolved. Obviously, in those circumstances there will be frustration on the part of one or more parties. However, such cases are invariably resolved using the existing regulations or alternative engineering options, so we do not think that there is a need to take a power on this at the moment.

[Lord Deben]

Does my noble friend accept that it is a question not just of the granting of the wayleave but of the speed at which it is done? There are many such examples and in the end wayleaves are granted. I still do not understand why in these circumstances we have not applied the speed with which we deal with telecommunications because of the pressure for broadband. Why do we not do the same thing?

[Baroness Sugg]

We have based the Bill on the evidence that we have seen and the problems that we have heard about. I acknowledge that the resolution process can be lengthy if it has to go through the Secretary of State for BEIS, but I appreciate that in the application of new technology there is an element of learning and improvement, particularly for new entrants to the market. We will keep the current statutory arrangements under review and, if further evidence becomes apparent, we will consider what further appropriate action we can take.

We have asked the Government’s new EV energy task force to look at the issue of wayleaves. As I said, we acknowledge that if there is a lengthy period before disputes can be resolved, that will put people off. The task force launches shortly and will work with government, the energy sector and the automotive sector to look at what further actions can be taken to ensure that the energy system is used more efficiently for the uptake of electric vehicles. We have specifically tasked the task force with that.

Amendments 20 and 35 in the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady Randerson and Lady Worthington, rightly highlight the importance of ensuring that new developments include provisions for necessary charging infrastructure. I entirely agree with my noble friend that it will be cheaper to get this right now than to try to do so retrospectively. The recent consultation on the National Planning Policy Framework considered the same policy. It sets out that, when developing local plans, local authorities must fully consider the inclusion of charge points in new developments.

The proposed NPPF envisages that applications for developments should be designed to enable the charging of plug-in and other ultra low emission vehicles in safe, accessible and convenient locations. It also sets out that, if setting local parking standards for residential and non-residential development, policies should take into account the need to ensure the adequate provision of spaces for such vehicles. We are considering many responses to the consultation, and the Government will respond in the summer.

In addition to the measures in the NPPF, building regulations have a big potential to play a role in the move to electric vehicles—in particular, regarding the provision of ducting and pre-cabling infrastructure for new buildings. In our industrial strategy we have committed to update building regulations for new residential developments, saying that they must contain the enabling cabling for charge points in homes. That will be an important step in future-proofing new homes and avoiding more costly retrofitting.

The NPPF addresses the specific point on non-residential buildings, but we already have the powers to introduce such changes through building regulations, so we do not think that they need to be included in the Bill. However, we have carefully considered the issues discussed in Committee, and I am pleased to confirm that we will extend our planned consultation on amending the building regulations for new residential dwellings to include appropriate provision for non-domestic buildings. We will consult on the appropriate regulatory requirements for all new buildings—residential and non-residential—to prepare for charge-point provision. As suggested in the amendments, this work will include considering the options for pre-cabling, and options for specifying a certain level of charging or refuelling points.

Amendment 34 would introduce regulation to ensure leaseholders are not denied the ability to install charging infrastructure, and I have reflected on the discussions in Committee on this issue. Of course, where leaseholders and the landlord or freeholder agree, a charger can be installed very quickly, but this amendment seeks to address those scenarios where one or other interested party has not agreed for whatever reason—we discussed what they could be in Committee. We want to consider these issues carefully. They relate to safety, ownership and cost. Following discussions with the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government, I can confirm that access to electric vehicle charge points will now be considered in the work that the Government are doing on leaseholding. A consultation will be published in the autumn.

I take the point made by the noble Baroness on timing. We certainly do not want to wait until 2021 on that and we will not have to. The project has already kicked off with a call for evidence and we will add this point into it. The Law Commission is already part way through examining the responses. The formal consultation is due to be published in the autumn and the final report will be in June next year—a little quicker. That consultation will provide a good opportunity to work through the issues around leasehold.

Given the confirmation that both leasehold properties and non-residential buildings will now be included in the forthcoming consultations, along with the assurance that the Government’s new electric vehicle energy task force has been specifically asked to review the issue of wayleaves, I hope that the noble Baroness feels able to withdraw her amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Deben]

My Lords, we are bound to discuss this very narrow amendment to a very narrow agreement by the Government, but it strikes me that there is a problem in the Bill with the extent to which the Government will be able to insist on charging points in future. For example, many public authorities do not seem to be rising to the occasion. As I understand it—I stand open to correction—the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea does not have any of these charging points. It is a disgrace. Westminster has been much better. There are no party politics in this; it is just one of those things. People do not seem to have woken up to this. Does the Minister feel that the Government have enough power to insist that the public sector, not just the private sector, behaves itself and recognises that it has to rise to this challenge? Unless one can be assured of that, one is very sympathetic to the amendment—except that it does not go far enough.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, I wanted to concentrate my remarks on the final group of amendments, but I will intervene briefly on this one. We should be told—perhaps I could have the Minister’s attention—who is actually objecting. We have just been told that local authorities may have concerns, but are private companies, petrol companies or garages objecting? In this particular area, somewhere along the line, there is a blockage. Can we be told whom officials are meeting? What is being said at these meetings? What is blocking this change? Clearly, there is a lot of support across the House for the amendment moved by the noble Baroness.

Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill

Lord Deben Excerpts

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Thursday 17th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Deben (Con)]

Will that consultation include not just regulation but facilitation? Many providers collect their fuel by road and then dispense it. They have a serious problem connecting with the grid and fitting in with the electricity supply. I do not understand why the Government do not apply here the same arrangements as they applied in respect of telephonic connections, which did something about the problems of wayleaves.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

My noble friend is absolutely right. Some fuel retailers may be in remote locations where the necessary electricity supply is not immediately available. Therefore, it would not make sense to oblige them to have charge points if they could not get the power. We have taken that on board. When we consult, we will look specifically at the availability of power supply before deciding whether to make progress.

Clause 16(4) would require the Secretary of State to lay the draft regulations in Parliament and their approval by each House before they are made. I understand the intent of the amendment: to ensure there is enough time for stakeholders to consider and comment, and make their views known to parliamentarians, before the regulations are discussed in the House. However we believe that, given the commitment to full consultation and the use of the affirmative procedure, it is not necessary or proportionate to publish the regulations six months before they are made. There will be many opportunities to comment on what should be included in the regulations throughout the consultation, and a delay of six months from the final draft to a vote in Parliament could adversely affect the delivery of the policy. Regarding Amendment 68, I hope this also reassures the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, of our commitment to consult fuel retailers about the appropriateness of regulations before they are introduced.

I turn to Amendment 87 and the important issue of data. The collection and use of data from charge points is increasingly important to those who help manage the electricity system. We will need carefully to consider how that data is used and how to ensure data privacy. We are already statutorily obliged to consult on the regulations through Clause 16(3). The consultation will cover the issues referred to in the amendments: who is responsible for collecting the data, how the data is shared, and any limitations on the use of such data. Therefore, we do not believe that a specific amendment on data is necessary. Data security and privacy are essential. Data would be anonymised and aggregated and it could be handled in a similar way to how smart meter data is treated. The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, suggested that one of the prescribed persons might be the Treasury, so that it could get this information in order to charge motorists. I do not think that is the intention, but I will take advice before I commit myself on it. It is an ingenious thought, which the Treasury may follow up now that the noble Lord has mentioned it.

Amendment 95 is proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson. She must have a very small carbon footprint if she generates through solar panels the power for her car. The amendment would require night-shift workers and households with solar panels to be taken into account for regulations under Clause 13, about smart charge points. I would hope that night-shift workers might be able to charge at work and therefore benefit from the lower rates, but off-peak is not only at night; lowest demand can now be in the afternoon because of solar power, so it could be the new off-peak—I understand that this happened for the first time in the UK in 2017. We will of course look to ensure that the introduction of smart charge points does not have adverse effects on any groups of consumers. However, we do not believe it is appropriate to specify, and implicitly prioritise, a small selection of people, however important, as the noble Baroness’s amendment seeks. I understand that it is important to take into account different groups of consumers, but as the clause is about the requirements for smart charge points rather than the pricing structures, I am not sure that it is the right place.

On smart charging pricing structures, I hope noble Lords will be reassured that the regulator for the electricity system, Ofgem, has an explicit responsibility to make the system fair for all energy consumers. Amendment 102 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, would extend the consulting requirement for this part of the Bill to ensure that the Secretary of State included the National Grid, large fuel retailers and service area operators. I agree that it is important to consult widely and of course that includes such stakeholders, but we do not think it appropriate to specify in the Bill a small proportion of the organisations that should be consulted.

Amendment 103 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, is about requiring draft regulations in this part to be approved in both Houses of Parliament every time they provide or amend a definition in this Act. Clause 16(4) already requires the Secretary of State to do this for the first time regulations are laid, with exceptions for technical regulations under Clause 9(3) and Clause 13. This is a rapidly evolving market and may require the Government to act quickly. The initial regulations will be subject, quite rightly, to the affirmative procedure, but it may not be appropriate to extend this to every provision or amendment of a definition.

I am grateful to noble Lords for raising important issues. I hope they are reassured that we intend to fulfil existing duties in respect of secondary legislation, that we will consult widely and thoroughly before any regulations are brought forward, and that the statutory obligation to consultation in Clause 16(3) will ensure that we do so. I recognise the importance of proper parliamentary scrutiny when defining terms used in the Bill, as the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee noted in its report. My noble friend is considering its recommendations and will respond to the committee before Report and copy this response to all noble Lords who have taken part in today’s debate. On that basis, I hope that the noble Lord might withdraw his amendment at this stage.

Space Industry Bill [HL]

Lord Deben Excerpts

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 14th November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

My Lords, we support the general thrust of this proposal and hope that the Minister will say sufficiently warm words so that the amendment will not be pressed. I hope that she will be driven by the simple fact that the industry almost certainly will not get off the ground unless the Government can produce some assurance that appropriate legislation will be brought forward at some stage to enable small satellites to be economically effective.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

I look forward to my noble friend’s reply and take this opportunity to say how exemplary the Government’s response has been on a range of issues that we have raised. If they responded in this way on a lot of other issues it would be very much easier for all of us. My noble friend has indicated in her delightful and charming way that she thought these amendments were worth while. Can we extend such a response more widely so that we do not have to have acrimonious discussions and then find ourselves with an amendment which is more or less similar to what has been proposed before? This is a very good example of that. People should always say thank you, and I do so.

[Baroness Sugg]

I thank my noble friend for his kind comments. I hope to continue in my role as a transport Minister in an unacrimonious way. I am afraid that is as far as I can go: that is my brief.

During Committee, I was given the chance to talk about the work that the UK Space Agency is doing to improve the current licensing regime. I apologise again if this is a case of Groundhog Day: I need to reiterate that as I am afraid we still do not believe that the noble Lord’s amendment is necessary. We outlined the “traffic light system” that the agency is working on and work that was being undertaken on a policy model for insurance for constellations of satellites following feedback that insuring each satellite for a set level of insurance is prohibitively expensive. We think that the traffic light system and the insurance requirements for small satellites and constellations will do the job and that the industry will welcome them. We are holding a workshop in December this year. Very shortly after that, the UKSA will plan the implementation of the policy framework around that. That work will obviously be relevant to the Bill as, when it comes into force, it will regulate the operation of all the satellites in orbit.

Amendment 18 seeks to make it a requirement that a report is laid before Parliament on any consultations, and to include within that report an indication of the regulations proposed. We still believe that the amendment is not necessary. Laying a report before Parliament would be a duplication. It is our intention, in line with the Government’s consultation principles document, to issue a government response to the formal consultations to take place in relation to this Bill. This will, of course, be accessible to everyone.

We expect that the approach to the insurance and licensing of nano satellites under this Bill will mostly be set out within the guidelines and not within regulations, as is the case under the Outer Space Act. This is to enable the development of the policy in line with changing circumstances. I would like to take a moment to explain how we envisage those regulations and guidance working. In Clause 37, the Bill provides the power to make regulations setting out that insurance may be required to cover certain risks and liabilities. The regulations can also set out what the insurance should cover, what may or may not be excluded from the cover and the amounts of cover required. Licences for spaceflight activities are bespoke in nature. Requiring a fixed amount of insurance for the operation of a satellite in orbit within regulations may remove the flexibility necessary to increase or reduce the insurance required, depending on the risks of each mission. It is therefore envisaged that the regulations may set out the methodology for calculating the amounts of insurance without containing specific figures. The regulations will set out those situations where insurance is required, what type of insurance is required and what should be covered within the policy.

Clause 12 and Schedule 1 allow the regulator to include a condition within each licence that sets out the minimum amount of insurance that is required for that licensed activity. We intend to include such conditions in licences for the operation of small satellites. The published guidance will set out the amount of insurance required in line with the regulations. Such guidance could include the insurance requirements for small satellites under the traffic light regime if the policy intention is to treat those in a certain way.

As I set out during the first day in Committee, the purpose of the guidance is to aid policy implementation by supplementing the legal framework. The main benefit of the guidance is the flexibility to amend quickly and take into account changing events. These are areas where guidance may need to be amended regularly and in a timely manner. In the meantime, the UKSA will continue to engage with industry and interested stakeholders. We are confident that we will publish the regulations in due course. I therefore ask the noble Lord to withdraw Amendment 18.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, I am grateful for the detailed exposition from the Minister this afternoon, which has clarified a number of things. Amendment 21, in my name and that of my noble friend, would require the consent of the relevant Minister in the Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland Governments before a land power could be created under Clauses 38 or 40. The Government have, on other issues, made many welcome concessions in relation to these sections. I am very grateful for the detailed letter from the Minister, which set out the Government’s response to questions I raised in Committee. I was reassured by the fact that the Government are looking at existing practice in the USA and New Zealand.

In our last debate, I asked what the Government meant by a “small area of land” and by the “vicinity” of the space launch site. It appears that in the US, regulations give the power to temporarily restrict access over a 2.2 kilometre radius from the launch point. In New Zealand, temporary restrictions on road use exist for six hours prior to a launch. Similar restrictions apply over areas of sea. On a densely populated island such as ours, such restrictions have a greater impact than in an area as extensive as the USA. We refer to potential spaceport sites as being in remote locations, but our definition of remote is certainly not that which would apply in the USA. Therefore, we are pleased indeed to see the increased precision provided by the Government’s amendments—for example, Amendment 20.

However, in our view, Amendment 21 deals with one important aspect that the Government’s amendments have not tackled. We have been told several times—indeed the Minister has repeated it just now—that the Welsh and Scottish Governments are supportive of the Bill. But that is rather different from their being content with the lack of specific reference to the need for the UK Government to gain the consent of Welsh and Scottish Ministers, or Northern Ireland Ministers when they exist. Support from the Welsh and Scottish Governments for the principle of the Bill does not mean their slavish support, for ever and a day, to its detailed outcomes.

In her response to me last time, the Minister referred to the example of the amendments made to the Equality Act 2010 as a result of the Bus Services Act. The Minister said that the Government thought it was appropriate to include reference to Welsh and Scottish Ministers in that Act, but,

“not strictly necessary, because the new regulation-making power was at the intersection of devolved and reserved matters”.—[Official Report, 23/10/17; col. 783.]

To take that forward, surely that argument applies equally here, where we have a Bill that refers to planning powers which are devolved and to a licensing process which is reserved.

I refer briefly again to the concerns of the House of Lords Constitution Committee on this issue. I gently suggest to the Minister, who has been gracious enough so far to deal with a number of concerns that have been raised in debate, that it might be tactful or sensitive to include reference to it here. A little good will at this stage might stave off problems in the other place and I urge her to look at this issue again.

[Lord Deben]

I am sure the House will accept that the Minister wishes to be less precise than the noble Baroness would like her to be, although her spirit suggests that she might move a little towards what is proposed here.

I wish to say two things. I welcome these amendments. They show the care that we all have to take at the extension of ministerial power. Even the small difference between expediency and appropriateness is a big gulf when it comes to attitudes. Expediency is a subjective statement whereas appropriateness can properly be tested in an objective way. I welcome the changes that have taken place.

In the course of the debate it was suggested that other legislation was the same as this. I have looked at the other legislation—I am boring like that—and, having been a Minister, I know that people occasionally put before one a phrase which is perhaps ill advised. The other legislation is not the same—it is rather different. One of the things your Lordships’ House is here to do is to deal with tiny differences which, when they get on to the statute book, become serious. As I take more and more time to deal with questions of climate change and the like, I find that there are institutional barriers to things that are obviously sensible to do because, at some time at some place, no one looked at the wording properly to ensure it did not create circumstances which made decisions more difficult.

As I said earlier, my thanks for the amendments will be accompanied by a warning that it is important to use this House in the way in which it has properly been used on this Bill. My noble friend may feel that a little more in the direction of the devolved Governments would be helpful. Certainly I would like to know more about their willingness to support the legislation as it is. That is the centrepiece of this disagreement and, as we have so few disagreements now, it would be nice to get rid of this one.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I would like to reflect briefly on what the noble Lord, Lord Deben, has said about the processing of this Bill. We will have a remarkably short Report stage, having had a good deal longer in Committee, because the Minister—I would say at our insistence but it would be unfair to suggest there was any resistance—has been willing to provide a great deal of time in private to work through the Bill in detail. There have been many concessions, which have been moved today and will form part of the Bill. This is an example of what an Opposition do best. The government concessions on land use and so forth add up to as good a deal as we think we are going to get, and the sensible thing for a good Administration to do is to take it. If we go any further we will end up dividing the House. We might or might not win, it then becomes a hostile environment, and things may get worse as a result. Therefore part of the process, unglamorous as it is, is to bank what you can.

I do not want to underestimate this because the Government have gone a long way in their concessions, but I will not recite them. I am pleased that the Minister has brought out the power in Clause 43; if she had done so in Committee I might not have made such a vigorous attack. That is because with our limited resources—I cannot think of a better way of putting it—we did not quite get to Clause 43. Certainly the compensation that Clause 43 refers to in Schedule 8 rounds off the land issues, so they are now as well rounded as they reasonably can be.

I share the view about Amendment 21, which I hope will not be pressed, but it would be good if the Minister could say a little more about it. I hope that the issue of reference to the devolved Administrations, which in successive Bills over the next several months we will be facing, is made a bit clearer. We must look at how it goes into future legislation. With that, I thank the Minister and all who have been involved not so much in this debate but in the wider debates both within and outside the Chamber for coming to what is a pretty good and rounded deal on the land issue.

Space Industry Bill [HL]

Lord Deben Excerpts

Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 23rd October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Judge (CB)]

My Lords, I too support what the noble Lord, Lord McNally, has said. The whole of this part of the Bill—Clauses 66 and 67—raises the same basic point. I will address what I have to say in relation to these amendments and come back, if I may, on Clause 67.

I know that I am being very old fashioned—almost constitutional—but why are we giving a Henry VIII clause the heading of “Minor and consequential amendments”? It is perfectly true that Clause 66(1) provides for minor and consequential amendments. That is because it introduces and gives effect to Schedule 12, which contains a whole series of consequential amendments that follow from the Bill. However, thereafter we are dealing with a regulation-making power that will enable the Executive—in this case, the Secretary of State—in due course to come back to the House to get more power to overrule, set aside and get rid of primary legislation. I do not regard that as minor. It is a very serious issue for regulation, whether through the Secretary of State or anybody else, to set aside Parliament.

I shall have to reserve what I say about Clause 66(6), which concerns the devolved Administrations, to when we come to the next amendment. However, I strongly object to legislation such as this being expressly regarded as minor.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, most of us are very much in favour of this Bill. Most of us want to make Britain the sort of place where space exploration right across the board is a natural part of what we offer the rest of the world. That is where we start from. Most of us are perfectly prepared to understand that minor and consequential amendments need to be made to laws as the world changes. However, most of us are here because at some point in our lives we have cared about the British constitution and about Parliament restricting the powers of the Executive by saying that, if primary legislation is to be changed, it is to be changed here in Parliament and not outside it by people who are not subject to Parliament. I am deeply concerned that much legislation will be brought into disrepute because people will believe that they no longer have a say in the proper procedure of making laws.

If this legislation were the only case where such a proposal is being made, I suppose one might be able to argue that so complex, detailed and particular is this matter that some special arrangement needs to be made. However, it is not the only case; it is a regular activity that this House has had to refuse. I have to admit that there were three occasions when the current Secretary of State was the Minister for Legal Affairs and I was one of those who managed to reverse attempts to take into the hands of Ministers power which ought to be in the hands of Parliament.

I say to my noble friend that one danger is that this House will have to take a more active part in secondary legislation if that is where the decisions are to be made. It is a very cumbersome system, and there is a mechanism here that would make it almost impossible to use, so that is not what we want to do. I say to my noble friend that this is not a small matter. Maybe the people in the Chamber who think this Bill is all about space have left it to those of us with an interest in the subject, but the fact is that every Member of this House ought to be interested in ensuring that primary legislation is not changed other than in a primary way in which Parliament plays a proper part.

I would like my noble friend to realise that this is a growing concern on this side of the House—it is not something that is going to slip through. More and more people are saying that legislation is being passed to give Ministers powers they should not have. The point I am making is that I was a Minister for 16 years, and I do not think I should have been given these powers. I know very well that when you are a Minister, you take things very carefully if you are going to have to report to Parliament. It is different from having a power to act on your best intentions. It is a much harder and tougher thing—and so it should be; that is what we are here for. We should not allow the Government to change what has been the attitude and concern of all Governments, of all sides, which is to reserve to Parliament that which is parliamentary, and not to try to steal it for the Executive.