Water (Special Measures) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Cromwell and Earl Russell

Committee stage
Wednesday 30th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Earl Russell (LD)]

My Lords, this group of amendments is about rules and requirements for monitoring and the publication of data. I apologise that this is a big group, as well as being the last group that we have to debate before our dinner hour; there are 15 separate amendments here.

Data, what we know, how we know it, how we use that information and how it is shared are all of crucial importance in monitoring what water companies are doing and also for protecting our environment. Knowledge is power, and I am reminded of the words of Ronald Reagan: “Trust, but verify”.

Amendment 43 in my name would quite simply require water companies to publish the volume and concentration of discharges from their emergency outflows. One area of the Government’s Bill that I personally particularly welcome is the plans to improve the real-time monitoring and sharing of data on emergency sewage overflows, introduced as new Section 141F. These measures are very much welcomed on these Benches. Can I clarify with the Minister that it is the Government’s intention to apply the monitoring regime as set out in the Bill to 100% of the outflows?

My amendment here is not a criticism of what is in place; instead, it is an attempt to see if there is scope to build on and slightly improve it, if possible, and explore with the Minister what some of the practical obstacles might be in place, if there are any at all. The measures set out in the Bill do not require transparency in terms of volume and type of discharge. I am fully aware, having done some work in other areas of monitoring and verification, that what I am asking for may well have far-reaching and possibly expensive implications. I am aware that this may involve different types of sensors being used and different information being captured, stored, and interpreted before going on to be shared. I would be interested to hear the Government’s position on these proposals, and what challenges such changes might present for them. Moving to a more robust and complete monitoring set of data is an essential journey that the Government need to take over time.

Amendment 47 in my name would require water companies to publish data on one website to increase transparency and ease of access for the public. This amend seeks to do what it says on the tin. It is relatively straightforward, so I will not speak to it for too long, but it is a quick and affordable improvement, which I hope will win government support. It is designed to strengthen and better enable the intentions of the Government to improve monitoring and the public’s access to the monitoring data. This is important not just to hold water companies to account and protect our environment but to help protect public health as best that we can. Where there are sewage spills, for whatever reason, it is very important that we all work to ensure the quick and smooth access to this information so that the public are aware of potential health risks and can take appropriate measures.

With many multiple water companies and water and sewage companies, and with all their websites having multiple pages and different tabs and set-ups, it would be easy for this information to all be published in full compliance with the Bill yet still leave it virtually impossible for the public to find it quickly and easily. That would defeat the spirit of the legislation, as I interpret it. My hope is that this amendment would have small associated costs but would bring strong associated benefits in transparency and accountability for what is actually happening but also as a means of deterrence. Water companies, I am sure, will think twice about their investment plans and clean-up operations when things go wrong, if they are aware that the public can monitor them easily in real time. It may be that this information is best hosted on either Defra’s or the Environment Agency’s website, and the wording of my amendment does not intend to rule that out as a possibility. I look forward to the response of the Minister to this practical suggestion.

Finally in this group, I come to Amendment 94 in my name. This amendment would require the Secretary of State to take steps to facilitate citizen science with regard to monitoring water companies. It is fair to say that none of us might be sitting or standing here debating the measures in this Bill were it not for the tireless work of concerned citizens and their passionate dedication and care for their local environment. In recent years, we have seen enforcement budgets for the Environment Agency cut almost in half, combined with a light-touch regulation regime, which has allowed water companies to self-monitor, as well as many no-flow incidents and other pressures. Much of the information, knowledge and drive to prevent sewage discharges and much of the information about what is happening out there in the real world has come as a direct result of citizen science and citizens who care about their local environment. It is really important that we as Lords pay tribute to their work as a thank you to them, because the rise of this issue up the national debate and the national consciousness is partly a direct result of the work that they have taken up. That is work where they have taken on roles that really should have been filled by the Government and regulatory agencies. For whatever reason, they did not have the capacity to do that. They are too many of these organisations to mention them all, but I acknowledge the Rivers Trust and its Big River Watch, which has worked for many years to build up a detailed knowledge of local environments, as well as the work of Thames21. I hope that other noble Lords will join me in offering them thanks.

With only 14% of our rivers in good ecological health and with budget pressures, improving citizen science is a win-win for everybody. It acts as another means of assessing the information that Ministers get from their regulators; it acts as a check on that and acts as a deterrent on what water companies are doing. They do not have as much of a relationship with the citizens doing this as they might do with the regulators, so it is a little bit left field in their context; they do not know what is being monitored where and when. It is an important deterrent and a check on the system—a check that it is working as intended. I encourage the Government to make better use of that resource and provide encouragement, support and training. It is also important that, by doing that, the Government help to make sure that the information being provided through these means is more reliable and using agreed baselines and methods, which in itself provides another important sense of information in all these debates.

There are lots of other really good amendments in this group, too many for me to go through them, but I beg to move.

[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

My Lords, I will speak to three practical amendments in my name in this group: Amendments 44, 46 and 49. They are modest and proportionate—perhaps that is my catchphrase. I support and echo almost everything, I think, that the noble Earl, Lord Russell, said a few moments ago, especially about citizen science.

Public accountability and transparency need data that is both sufficient and timely. As currently drafted, I do not think that this Bill does that sufficiently. My Amendments 44 and 46 together would solve this. Amendment 44 provides for relevant information to be made publicly available and Amendment 46 recognises that this is not something that can always be provided immediately—I am trying to anticipate the Minister’s reply here. Amendment 46 would allow the water companies to indicate when the information would be available, rather than requiring them to produce it immediately. By including these questions in the Bill while allowing a reasonable approach to how soon it can be provided, the amendments would fill the information and accountability gap that is in the Bill currently.

To turn to Amendment 49, experience shows that allowing companies—we had this exact issue during the passage of the Modern Slavery Bill, by the way—to report things exclusively on their own websites results in difficulties such as differences in the information that is included, where it is shown, how easily it can be found and how fully it is reported. That makes it unnecessarily difficult for those seeking to monitor performance on a comparative or aggregated basis. As represented in my amendment, putting this into one place where it is accessible to everybody is not a large amount of work. It is simply a matter of the water company putting it on its own website and firing off a link to the authority, which can put it on its website. That is how it should be, and it would enable comparative measures of performance, which will be lacking if water companies bury this on their own websites and report it in different ways.

Water (Special Measures) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Cromwell and Earl Russell

Committee stage
Monday 28th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

My Lords, we spoke earlier about the issue of two regulators and I will not go back over that. However, I will talk a little more about the presence of people on boards. I think there is a middle ground here—obviously beautifully set out in my amendment. To extrapolate a little from that, I agree that directors in a company have specific responsibilities which would not sit comfortably with having a consumer representative as a member of the board. That is clear and right.

These companies, however, are not just profit-making companies which represent shareholder interests; they are monopolies providing a service to the public for which they achieve a reward. That is an important distinction to make. For that reason, I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, that avoiding groupthink and having challenge on a board is a very useful thing. However, I would not go so far as to make them directors, for all sorts of legal reasons that others have already expounded.

It pains me to disagree marginally with the noble Duke, the Duke of Wellington. I do not like panels, because they become ghettos that the unfortunate member of board who has to interact with them dreads going to—but they go anyway, they go through the motions and then they come back. I far prefer something more formal: a regular cycle of meetings with representatives of civil society, which are going to be challenging and sometimes uncomfortable but which end with recorded actions that are made public. Otherwise, it becomes just a token exercise and a ghettoisation into panels. I will not try to emulate the tone of the noble Lord, Lord Deben, but the representatives of consumers or environmentalists can be listened to but not heard.

[Earl Russell (LD)]

My Lords, this has been one of the really interesting groups in the Bill. I am not certain that any of us—from any party, in any amendment—has the complete solution. There are questions about whether a one-size solution fits all. In any case, there is a lot for all of us to go away and think about. These are crucial issues that go to the heart of what we do, how water companies operate, how they are accountable and how people who are impacted by them can feed in to and influence what they do and how they operate.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Cromwell, for his contribution. I fully support him on the role of civil society. It is particularly important that we all acknowledge, as he did, that we would not be here without the role of civil society. I have an amendment in a later group to encourage the Government to work more with civil society in monitoring the environment.

I also thank the noble Duke, the Duke of Wellington, for his comments on the need for environmental representation. I am not quite certain where I agree on that debate; I will go away and think about it some more. I have also been on a board, and to be honest, it was one of the most difficult things I have done in my life. That was even on a good, well-functioning board. Sometimes, if you are in a difficult situation, even with good people who work together, things can be very difficult.

I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Remnant, for tabling his amendment. The board should decide on its own make-up and we should not dictate to it. Perhaps there is some kind of compromise here between the Government setting guidelines for what needs to happen, while perhaps allowing some freedom within the way that it is organised and monitoring the outputs that come from it. Maybe there is something we can all work on there.

I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Sikka, for his contribution. It is a bold move, indeed, and I am not entirely certain that I agree with that kind of prescriptive democracy. I think that it is better to allow things to be inclusive, as opposed to dictating that they must be in their make-up, but again, I will think about that.

The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, spoke about bringing some democracy into the regime. I certainly think we need that, and that the environment needs a proper, formal voice. I take up the point from the noble Lord, Lord Deben, about the need to watch the environment. If we do not do that, and if nobody has that responsibility or role, then that protective piece that needs to happen will not be there.

I think our areas of agreement were the need to broaden representation to include the environment and community, the need for diversity, the need for boards to work well, the need for constructive challenge to operate and to be brought to these companies at the highest level, and the view what we have now is not working, so we need to go away and find something else.