Warrior Capability Sustainment Programme
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Lord Coaker
To ask His Majesty’s Government what recent assessment they have made of the impact of the cancellation of the Warrior Capability Sustainment Programme in their Defence in a Competitive Age command paper, published on 22 March 2021.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness Goldie) (Con)
My Lords, the integrated review has set the British Army on a course of exciting transformation. Cancelling the Warrior capability sustainment programme, rather than spending taxpayers’ money on upgrading an ageing legacy capability, has enabled reinvestment of resources to support Army modernisation under Future Soldier. The Army’s current capabilities, which include Warrior, will remain effective until new concepts and capabilities are introduced into service throughout the remainder of the decade.
Lord Coaker (Lab)
I have a very simple question for the Minister. Can she assure us that, with the cancellation of Warrior, there is no capability gap with respect to the Army’s mechanised infantry vehicle capability? The Minister will know that the Warrior upgrade programme has been cancelled, we are awaiting when all the 623 Boxer vehicles are to be delivered and, with the problems there have been with the Ajax programme, we are unclear when that is due to be delivered. Can the Minister explain why we should not be worried about capability with respect to this particular Army infantry vehicle capability?
Baroness Goldie (Con)
I can confirm that the Army has been allocated £200 million to keep Warrior going and to assist with funding of Challenger 2. This is all about bridging the important period of transition from the old configuration to the new. On Boxer, my noble friend—or my noble opponent—will be aware that initial operating capability is expected to be achieved in 2025, with full operating capability in 2032. Ajax is now in a very positive place, having been through, I fully admit, its own travails. It is in a good position and there is no operating capability gap.
Ukraine
Lord Coaker Excerpts(1 year, 6 months ago)
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Lord Coaker (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Government for their comments on Ukraine but can the noble Baroness ensure that Statements are more regularly made to Parliament? The Defence Secretary last made a Statement on Ukraine in January, and I think that all of us, in both Houses, would welcome the opportunity to hear more often of progress and be able to question the Government about it.
The Minister in the other place said that the focus at last week’s meeting in Ramstein was on accelerating the delivery of military aid packages. Can the Minister say how the Government intend to accelerate the progress of the provision of these weapons, and in particular how we intend to accelerate the progress of the provision of air defence weapons?
The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness Goldie) (Con)
I thank the noble Lord for his observations. I listened with interest to his view that we should devote more time to the consideration of matters in Ukraine, and I quite understand that he makes that point very seriously. I am certainly aware of fairly regularly appearing at this Dispatch Box to answer questions on Ukraine, which I am very happy to do. I am also aware that, in this House, we had an exceedingly good debate on 9 February, in which I think the noble Lord participated and in which I and my noble friend Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon participated on behalf of the Government. Certainly in this House we are trying to ensure that your Lordships are kept informed. However, I am sure that noble Lords will share with me if they have any reservations about seeking more information, and I will endeavour to facilitate the provision of that.
On the specific point which the noble Lord raises about the provision of equipment, I have observed before that the thrust of this, apart from the dominant roles played by the United Kingdom and the United States, really comes from acting in concert with other partners and allies. As the noble Lord will be aware, on 21 April, at Ramstein, the US hosted the Ukraine defence contact group, which discussed further co-ordinated military support to Ukraine. This is done in conjunction and co-ordination with our partners.
A very important part of this is the international donor co-ordination centre, which makes sense of getting all the things in and then providing them to Ukraine as efficiently and effectively as possible. The other important element of all this is the International Fund for Ukraine, which has reached urgent bidding round 2, launched on 11 April. Requirements are being released in phases, the first two of which are for air defence, which closed on 26 April, and long-range strike, which will close on 4 May. Further requirements under that urgent bidding round 2 will be raised via the Defence Sourcing Portal in a phased approach over the coming weeks. I think your Lordships will understand that there is a coherent pattern here. We cannot do this randomly or indiscriminately; we have to make sure that it is part of a sensible, conjoined approach.
Top Secret Document Leaks
Lord Coaker Excerpts(1 year, 7 months ago)
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Lord Coaker (Lab)
My Lords, it is obviously of huge concern that top secret US documents were leaked, including files purporting to be on the war in Ukraine. In assessing what damage this may have done, are the Government looking into why the Wall Street Journal reported last week that the leak was first put out in January among a small group of posters on a messaging channel that trafficked in memes, jokes and racist talk? This posting in January of top secret files went, according to the Wall Street Journal, unnoticed for weeks by the outside world. If accurate, this is a very concerning matter, so can the Minister look into what did happen and whether that report is accurate? In the light of all this, can the Minister tell us what the MoD is doing to improve security, including data breaches?
The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness Goldie) (Con)
I thank the noble Lord for his Question. I am not privy to the content and detail of the article to which he refers, and even if I were, I would be reluctant to comment. As the noble Lord is aware, an internal United States investigation is now taking place and the broader issue is now the subject of investigation by the United States criminal justice system and is sub judice, therefore I am unable to comment further on that. On data breaches, our MoD takes information and data-handling responsibilities very seriously. Following previous investigations, we have introduced measures to prevent breaches recurring—that is a targeted campaign of re-education and retraining. It might be helpful to the noble Lord to know that, for example, when I log on to my MoD desktop I am now immediately presented with an automatic message about keeping equipment safe, and we are now unable to send an email on MoD equipment without being prompted to add a sensitivity label. I must say that that makes me think very carefully about what I am sending and to whom I am sending it.
Service Police (Complaints etc.) Regulations 2023
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Lord Coaker (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for outlining this important SI and for the detail that was included in her opening remarks. We welcome and support the regulations relating to service police and the complaints process and look forward to their introduction.
As the noble Baroness mentioned, we rightly hold our service personnel in high regard, but they need to feel confident and expect that they will, when necessary, be protected by service police and that high standards are maintained. However, if these standards are not met, service personnel need to know that a strong, independent system is in place to investigate service police officers and hold them to account if they have not performed their duties properly. We therefore welcome the appointment of Ms Margaret Obi as the new Service Police Complaints Commissioner.
I have a couple of questions for the Minister. The Minister in the other place said that the annual budget for this new, niche independent unit will be £250,000, that there will be three members of staff and that the new commissioner will work for two and a half days a week. How has that all been arrived at? Presumably, there has been some analysis of the amount of work, and we have heard about the department’s analysis of the number of cases that there may be, but it would be interesting to hear about that. If it is clearly not enough, as it begins to operate, will the figures be reviewed on an ongoing basis or will we have to wait for the annual report to point out that it is not sufficient and that more may be needed?
The Minister will know that the new Defence Serious Crime Unit was launched earlier this year, which is also very welcome. Can she explain the relationship between the Service Police Complaints Commissioner, the new DSCU and the three investigators whom the new complaints commissioner will appoint? Who will these three investigators be and what training will they have and potentially provide to other service personnel?
Can the Minister confirm the relevance of the commencement date in Regulation 1, which talks of 19 June 2023? I think she said that the complaints commissioner is already in place and starting her work. If all these regulations will come into force on 19 June, will the new commissioner have the powers that she needs from that date? That is my understanding of it. Can the Minister confirm the relevance of 19 June?
As for the civilian police, we have just had the Casey review, which points to the cultural problems in the Metropolitan Police. Can we be assured that the super-complaints procedure, as outlined in the SI, would and should be used by the Service Police Complaints Commissioner? Could she initiate a super-complaints process herself? In other words, how is something brought to light for the commissioner to decide that there is a need to use the super-complaints process?
The Minister in the other place said,
“the service police complaints system will not, initially at least, deal with historical matters”.
I am not quite clear on this. First, is that right? Secondly, are “historical matters” anything that is complained about before 19 June 2023? I think that was the point that the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, was getting at. I may have misunderstood, but the point of this Committee is to try to get clarifications. What did the Minister in the other place mean by “not initially”? Does it mean that any historical complaint, however serious, cannot be looked at if it happened before 19 June? If I understand what the Minister in the other place said, the answer is: “Not initially, but it may be that we do”.
There needs to be clarity because this is really important. The credibility of the new Service Police Complaints Commissioner will be a little undermined if serious allegations are made but cannot be investigated because only matters from after 19 June can be investigated, and the answer is: “We can’t look at it yet because the regulations won’t allow us until they’ve been in place for 18 months, and then we can come back and have a look at it”.
I want to know a bit more about the process, which the Minister outlined a little. Who starts a complaint and how does it reach the commissioner? How does the process work? The crucial issue, which, to be fair, was acknowledged by the Minister in the other place and I am sure the noble Baroness will also acknowledge it, is: will the withdrawal of complaints be monitored? There are concerns regarding the necessary hierarchy in the services. During our debate on the Armed Forces Bill, we recognised that, although that hierarchy is clearly necessary, it can and does create a situation in which pressure may be applied on somebody in a way which causes them to withdraw something, even if it is a complaint that really should be looked at. Can the Minister reassure us that the withdrawal of complaints, which is outlined in the regulations—the Government have included it—will be monitored in the annual report?
The Minister in the other place also said that the new system will cover conduct matters and death or serious injury. He said:
“In layman’s terms, these are cases where no complaint has been made”.—[Official Report, Commons, Delegated Legislation Committee, 21/3/23; cols. 5-6.]
I am not being funny but, for this layman, how is it brought to light if no complaint has been made? I am not trying to be pedantic but, usually, something comes to light because a complaint has been made. I think the Minister said that it is where something is suspected or is thought to be happening. Can the Minister tell us what that means? Is it rumour or innuendo, or somebody said something to someone? I want to be clear about how issues with respect to conduct, for example, can be brought to light if no complaint has been made. What is the process to bring that to light and be investigated, since no complaint is necessary? Can the Minister clarify that?
Finally, will the Minister lay out some of the differences between the civilian and service complaints systems, recognising the obvious difference between service and civilian life? The Explanatory Memorandum states that the key difference is
“the lack of accelerated procedures for members of the Armed Forces”.
Can the Minister explain why? I think that I know the answer, but it would be interesting for it to be put on the record.
I finish by saying that the purpose of these questions is not to try in any way to cause the Government a problem—we are pleased to see the establishment of this system by these regulations. Indeed, the Minister made it clear during the passage of the Armed Forces Bill that she would bring forward these regulations as quickly as possible, and she has done that. We are pleased to see this new service police complaints procedure, but there are some questions, and I think it would be helpful for the Committee, and indeed those who read our proceedings, to have the Minister’s answers.
As I say, our questions are not intended to oppose but to seek clarity. If this new process and new post are as successful as we all hope they will be, then real progress will have been made. Clearly issues have arisen that have eroded trust and confidence in service personnel, and I believe that the passage of these regulations will help to restore some of that trust and confidence.
Baroness Goldie (Con)
My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their very helpful observations and the useful questions that have been posed. The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, was lamenting the absence of her colleague, the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford. I have to say, completely selfishly and wishing him no ill will, that I am delighted at his absence—I am sure that he would have pinned me to the wall with a multiplicity of technical points.
The noble Baroness raised a point about time limits for former members. The situation is that they cannot evade liability, even if they are former members of the service police force; they are still answerable and accountable, and it would still be competent under regulations to bring a complaint. Therefore, a resignation could not avoid that—I am looking to my officials for reassurance on that.
The noble Baroness also asked about special circumstances. There is no definition in the regulations, but the expression has its ordinary meaning. I know that that is not awfully helpful to your Lordships, but I think that we can take a common-sense view of this. If, by any normal assessment of the situation, it was thought that something unusual had occurred, that would constitute a special circumstance.
The noble Baroness was rightly concerned about frivolous complaints and whether they could frustrate the process. One of the tangible benefits—I hope—of having this clearly defined, legally constituted system is that frivolous complaints can probably be weeded out at a fairly early stage. I can offer to the noble Lord, Lord Coaker—I will also offer a copy to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith—a fascinating diagram that was given to me by my officials, who understand only too well my slowness in grasping these issues. I have in my hand a marvellous diagram that shows how the complaints start, where they go and what happens, including death and serious injury matters as well as conduct matters. This is a very helpful physical indicator and I am very happy to share that with noble Lords— I will get it handed over.
The noble Baroness also asked what happens if criminal matters arise. That is a very important question and is one that I posed to the officials when they were briefing me. The answer is that the commissioner has power to refer to the service prosecutor. It might be that, in the course of investigating something, behaviour emerged and the view was that it constituted criminal activity. If that is the case, it would be referred immediately to the service prosecutor. Of course, even without the protocols being in force, the service prosecutor already informally consults with the civilian prosecutor. They would work out what to do.
On super-complaints and designated bodies, I was interested to know how all this would work and what exactly a designated body would look like. My officials very helpfully provided me with information which may be of use to your Lordships. I have a list of designated bodies under the civilian super-complaints system, which may give a flavour of what we are talking about. There are numerous organisations on it, such as the Criminal Justice Alliance, the Women’s Aid Federation of England, Welsh Women’s Aid, Southall Black Sisters and Pathway Project. That is just an indication of the wide spectrum of organisational interest that I think there will be in this.
Lord Coaker (Lab)
The Minister in the other place said that it will be reviewed after 18 months. He stated:
“We are going to let this run for a bit; we will review it internally after 18 months”.—[Official Report, Commons, Fourth Delegated Legislation Committee, 21/3/23; cols. 11-12.]
Can the Minister here confirm that?
Baroness Goldie (Con)
I can confirm that. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, that we already plan to conduct a review of the regime after the first 18 to 24 months of operation. It would no doubt be appropriate at that time to consider the issue of historical cases.
I have already covered the question of who starts the complaint. If the clerk would oblige, perhaps my beautifully multicoloured papers could be handed to the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, and I will get a set to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith.
I think that I have managed to cover the main points—
Lord Coaker (Lab)
As I think the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, would agree, the Minister has made very helpful and informed responses to the number of questions raised, which will help to clarify the operation of the system. The only major issue for me is the monitoring of the withdrawal of complaints; it is really important and, again, was mentioned in the other place. I think that the Minister in the other place said that he would expect to see how well the system is operating in the annual report. The Minister here will know—I said this in my opening remarks, so will not repeat myself—that the withdrawal of complaints due to people feeling under pressure is quite a significant way of seeing whether something is working or not. Confidence in the system will show, as appropriate, that the levels of withdrawal would not be higher than you would expect.
Baroness Goldie (Con)
I thank the noble Lord; that is a very important point. It is perhaps the other side of the coin that I raised with my officials. If a complaint is investigated, the commissioner makes a recommendation, so my question was: how will the recommendations be carried out? In fact, there is provision in the regulations for that.
That brings me to the important issue of the annual report. This is where we get the light of transparency and public accountability. The noble Lord is quite correct: I think that if parliamentarians felt that, in the presentation of the annual report, it was inadequate because it did not tell them very much, they would make clear their anxiety about it. That might include a lack of information about complaints withdrawn.
From what we have gathered—I gave some figures in the course of my remarks about the data that we have —I do not think that we are anticipating a terrific number of complaints. Of course, because a system is now established and people may have greater confidence, it is perfectly possible that we might see the number of complaints increasing. I have heard the point that the noble Lord raised, and we shall take it away; I agree that it is an important part of the overall picture, not just to know how many complaints and recommendations were made and what the outcomes were, but whether there was an element of withdrawal of complaints. I thank the noble Lord for raising that point and will take it away.
I think that I have managed to deal with most of the points that have been raised. If I have overlooked anything, I shall look at Hansard and undertake to come back to your Lordships. I thank noble Lords again for their contributions, as ever. It helps very much to improve our understanding of how these arrangements will work in practice. I commend this instrument to the Committee.
Ukraine: Arms Supplies
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Baroness Goldie (Con)
Orders have certainly been placed by the UK. I do not have specific information in front of me but I shall inquire and will submit whatever detail I can to the noble Baroness.
Lord Coaker (Lab)
I again make clear from this Front Bench that His Majesty’s Opposition fully support what the Government are doing on Ukraine and will continue to do so. The Committee of Public Accounts today published its report MoD Equipment Plan 2022-32. This makes a number of serious points about the Government’s ability to supply Ukraine with the equipment it needs. Building on my noble friend Lord West’s Question, what are the Government going to do to enable industry to deliver the military equipment that we need, and quickly?
Baroness Goldie (Con)
I do not want to pre-empt the department’s response to the Public Accounts Committee, which will be prepared and submitted in due course. I can say that there is an element of divergence on how facts and circumstances are interpreted, but that is for the more detailed response. I reassure the noble Lord that, on the basis of previous criticism of the MoD by the National Audit Office and the Public Accounts Committee, significant reforms have been effected within it. To be fair, the noble Lord is aware of many of these, and there is no doubt that they are delivering improvement. As to the committee’s overall report, it falls to the department to respond fully in the appropriate time period.
AUKUS Defence Partnership
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Lord Coaker (Lab)
My Lords, I start by saying that His Majesty’s Opposition fully support the AUKUS defence partnership that has been announced by the Government. It is a multi-decade agreement with two of our closest and strongest allies. It is of immense importance when we look forward to the threats we face now and in the future. It strengthens our strategic security and prosperity in the Indo-Pacific. As such, it should be seen as a national endeavour and a statement of our intent, with our allies and our friends, to stand up for freedom, democracy and human rights across the world.
Can the Minister reassure us, notwithstanding the obvious immediate threat to Ukraine from Russia and the fact that the first of these new submarines is some way off, that we have the surface fleet and the strategic alliances that we need to deal with the threats that we now face in that region? Or is it the case that, if we are to commit to the Indo-Pacific tilt, more resources will be needed in numbers of ships and planes and protection for the carriers?
There will obviously be a welcome boost to defence jobs, with these new submarines being built in Barrow and with nuclear work in Derby, as well as elsewhere across our country. Given the very real current skills shortage, how will the Government work with industry to ensure that we have the necessary skilled workforce to actually do this building? Can the Minister give us some idea of how many jobs are expected to be created? Can she also confirm the number of additional submarines to be built for the UK and what size this will eventually bring the UK’s submarine fleet up to? The first SSN-AUKUS for our UK Navy will commence in the late 2020s and will be operational as early as the late 2030s. What steps are the Government taking to ensure that these costs and timelines will be kept to?
Alongside those issues, I commend the Government on the steps they have taken to work with the International Atomic Energy Agency to alleviate concerns around nuclear proliferation requirements. The agreement involves the transfer to Australia of technology, equipment and a naval nuclear propulsion capability. Can the Minister lay out clearly for the Chamber how this agreement maintains our compliance with the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and what steps the Government have taken or will take to reassure those who may be upset by this agreement? Of course, this must not prevent us taking measures for our security and that of others, but the Government quite rightly have been sensitive to the consequences, not only for countries such as China but as regards what others may think and that those countries may try to use it as a justification to act. Crucially, can the Minister confirm that the director-general of the IAEA has expressed their satisfaction with our engagement and that we will work closely with the IAEA over the coming years?
The UK’s former National Security Adviser, Sir Stephen Lovegrove, said of the pact:
“It is perhaps the most significant capability collaboration anywhere in the world in the past six decades.”
He said that because it is not just about submarines but, as pillar 2 of the agreement describes, about cyber, hypersonics, artificial intelligence and so on. Little detail has been given about this, so could the Minister give us any further updates on the sort of collaboration that may take place under pillar 2?
The integrated review says that £3 billion will be invested across the defence nuclear enterprise. Can the Minister confirm that resources are there to properly fund this pact over its lifetime and that those resources will not lead to cuts in the budget elsewhere? Would not all our defence, including this, be helped by a timescale rather than an aspiration to reach 2.5% of GDP on defence spending? I remind the Minister that that has not been the case since 2010.
Finally, as I said, we can be proud of this endeavour as a country. It will help to ensure that we protect our interests, not only in Europe but beyond in the Indo-Pacific, working with others to support democracy and freedom as we have always done. As such, His Majesty’s Opposition fully support it and wish it well.
Lord Lee of Trafford (LD)
My Lords, we on these Benches very much welcome the AUKUS partnership announcement and Statement for the whole range of fairly obvious reasons that the noble Lord set out. However, has the Minister seen the comments in yesterday’s Times from Rear Admiral Philip Mathias, a former director of nuclear policy and of the Trident value-for-money review? He said:
“The performance of the Submarine Delivery Agency has been abysmal. Astute class submarines are being delivered late by BAE … HMS Vanguard’s refit by Babcock has taken more than seven years; and … The in-service date for HMS Dreadnought”—
originally 2024—now will not come through until the early 2030s. Have the Government done any work at all as regards submarine construction refit on comparing the performance of Barrow and our shipbuilding industry with the performance achieved in the United States and France? That would be a very interesting comparison. In addition, given that we are likely to have an increase in our submarine fleet, which would be very welcome, what plans are there to increase and train the number of submariners who will be needed for those future boats?
Nuclear Weapons: Failsafe Review
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Baroness Goldie (Con)
At the risk of being tedious, I simply reiterate to the noble Baroness what I have been saying: we have a very robust structure within the United Kingdom. It is not only inherently robust in terms of the MoD construct but monitored and regulated both within the MoD and externally. We are satisfied that we have due regard to all possible risks or vulnerability. It is for other states to make their decision as to how they deal with the presence of nuclear weaponry, but I indicated earlier the partnership we have with France. I think that is an interesting example of where there is knowledge sharing.
Lord Coaker (Lab)
My Lords, of course, we support the nuclear deterrent but the US has said that the failsafe review of its nuclear posture
“offers an historic opportunity to reduce the risk of nuclear use today and for generations to come.”
It says:
“The failsafe review must result in concrete actions”
to make both the US and the world safer. So, notwithstanding her earlier comments, can the Minister say what discussions or, indeed, involvement we have had on such an important review, which is ultimately about the security of the world, particularly given the current uncertainties?
Baroness Goldie (Con)
As I have indicated to the House, we have in place an array of safeguards, checks and structures to ensure that we are responsive to any identified vulnerability or potential area of risk, however that risk might arise. As I said earlier, it is for individual sovereign states to make their own decisions about how they deal with these matters. It would be wrong to suggest that the United States, for example, regularly does this. I pointed out that the last review was in 1991—it is for the United States to make its decision upon that and absolutely right that it does so. It is also right for the United Kingdom to make its own determination. But I reassure the House that we constantly liaise and speak with allies, we share intelligence and we always want to learn from good practice.
Ukraine
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Lord Coaker (Lab)
My Lords, we have had some important and informed contributions from many noble Lords across the Chamber. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, and the usual channels for ensuring that this debate could take place over a long period and not be curtailed to a couple of hours. Given the significance and importance of this issue, the Government are to be congratulated for enabling the debate to happen this quickly. Given the significance of what happened yesterday, it was also fortuitous.
I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, for the informed remarks that started this debate so well. However, it would be remiss of me not to start by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Soames, and welcoming him to the Chamber; it is nice to see him here. I think he got here under better circumstances than me. We are all delighted he is here for all sorts of reasons, not least his informed opinions, his general courtesy and, obviously, his lineage, which brings an important historical perspective. But in his own right, he has added considerable knowledge and experience to this debate, and he will no doubt do so in many other debates going forward. We are pleased that he is here with us, and I wish him good luck with his contributions in this House.
I also want to start from the point of view of unanimity, which is extremely important. The noble Lord, Lord Cormack, and my noble friend Lord Collins talked about the importance of symbolism. The television pictures that are beamed around the world and seen in so many countries are particularly important in these circumstances. The noble Lord, Lord Cormack, and my noble friend pointed out the importance of the Prime Minister Rishi Sunak being seen alongside Sir Keir Starmer and other leaders of our political parties. That is of huge significance and shows that, although we obviously have some questions for and points to make to the Government—as the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, has rightly just done—that is done on the basis of unanimity. I take the well-made point of the noble Lord, Lord McDonald: this is an important debating Chamber, one of the most significant in the world, alongside the other place. An incredible number of people watch our proceedings. It sometimes does not feel like that, but it is watched by significant numbers of people across the world. It will be being watched and analysed for any sense of difference between us— and there is none.
Perhaps I may say one thing as an aside. We heard the lone voice of my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours. It is good that in our democracy, someone can stand up and say something, even if they are a lone voice. He was heard with courtesy and respect. I think I am right in saying that no one here agreed with him, but he had a right to say it. That is important, because there may be people listening in countries whose parliamentarians would be arrested and imprisoned if they expressed a view so contrary to that of their Government. My noble friend has an absolute right to say what he said. I totally disagree with him but that is not the point. In one sense—and the noble Lord, Lord McDonald, has more experience of these things than me—that symbolises what the conflict is about. This is an important conflict between those who would undermine democracy and those who would stand up for it.
It was a truly historic moment yesterday when so many of us gathered together to hear the inspirational words of President Zelensky—an occasion when he came to thank us, to ask for our continued support and to mention the need to provide Ukraine with the weapons it needs. It was also to restate what this battle, this conflict, this war is about.
I start my remarks by reiterating the importance of ensuring that Putin does not succeed. We can once again be proud that our country was among the first to support, and remains at the forefront of supporting, this battle for the rule of law and for the principle that force and aggression cannot be allowed to prevail. Our stand with Ukraine is for democracy, human rights and justice. This country has a proud tradition of standing up for those principles with our friends and allies, and we will do so once again in Ukraine as we have done so many times in our past.
It is a battle that is well understood not only here in Westminster but across our country. As President Zelensky will have witnessed, there is immense good will among our people to stand firm with the people of Ukraine. The noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Southwell and Nottingham highlighted that point, as did many others, including the noble Lord, Lord Risby, just now. The British people understand that it is not just us in Westminster who believe that this is important; they understand that the Ukrainian fight is our fight, that their battle is our battle, and that the battle for democracy and freedom in Kyiv, Ukraine and beyond is the front line for us as well. It is a struggle for democracy and is therefore our struggle.
As many noble Lords have pointed out, Putin believed the West to be weak. He believed that we would cave in, that we would not stand with Ukraine, that we would be frightened and intimidated. He made many miscalculations but this was clearly one of the biggest. Instead of dividing us, we are more united than ever in our belief and our desire to see this through. We will do all we can to see it through.
Let it be seen that we will stand up against aggression, intimidation and those who undermine the rule of law not only here in Europe. As others have said, this has lessons for us in the rest of the world as well. Tyranny, oppression and dictatorship cannot win, and our fight in Ukraine sets out to prove that.
We must redouble our efforts, act even more urgently and respond quickly to new threats from Russia, supporting Ukraine in every way we can. The noble Earl, Lord Attlee, pointed out some of the difficulties. I do not know how the Minister will respond, but there is clearly a need for urgency and for things to happen as quickly as possible. The Challenger 2 tanks must get there quickly, and training must happen and new demands must be responded to as quickly as possible. The Government will need to explain to us how they will meet these new demands as urgently as they can.
We also need to consider what the review of our independent review should say. We were going to cut the number of our battle tanks; that was in the review. Clearly we must now review that. We were going to undertake other changes to our equipment. We have said that technological improvement is more important than mass. The noble and gallant Lords, Lord Stirrup and Lord Craig, will know far better than me that the Typhoon is a brilliant aircraft, and the F35B is great, but what about the mass of aircraft? Is there more we can do to have more of this equipment in the short term? If we give aircraft or other equipment away, how do we replenish it quickly? Where will it come from? You cannot build a tank or an aircraft in a year. If we want to up our supply and capabilities, how are we going to do that?
Those are the questions that the Government need to answer. As the noble and gallant Lords, Lord Craig and Lord Stirrup, and the noble Lords, Lord Soames and Lord Bilimoria, pointed out, they are important considerations for us. What does that mean for a defence budget? There will have to be a debate about what it actually means and the difficulties of that. If we want more money, where will it come from? Are we going to have a sensible debate about how we achieve that? Again, those are matters for the future, but a debate and discussion will have to be had.
There are many other things that could be said. I join my noble friend Lord Robertson, the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, and the noble Lords, Lord Soames, Lord Hannay and Lord Howell, and many others in hoping that the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, can say something about this issue in a few minutes: there is a real problem about explaining in other parts of the world what I have just been saying about what we are doing with respect to Ukraine. It is not just some dictatorships in Africa; we have problems with India, Israel, South Africa and other countries that may not be against what we are doing but are certainly not keen advocates of it and worry about it. How are we trying to deal with that, discuss it and win the narrative?
Although I cannot remember which noble Lord raised this, I say to the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, that the idea that we should cut the BBC World Service is a very bad one. At a time when the dissemination of accurate information across the airwaves in different languages to different people is so important, the idea that that is not an absolute priority, at what is a minimal cost, beggars belief. I know the Minister will not be able to answer that now, but I ask him to take it back.
I finish where I started. Their battle is our battle. We are proud to stand with the people of Ukraine. The unity of this Parliament is something that should resound right across Europe and certainly in Moscow. There is no difference between us. We are prepared to see this through, and we will do so.
Integrated Review: Update
Lord Coaker Excerpts(1 year, 9 months ago)
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Lord Coaker
To ask His Majesty’s Government what progress they have made with the update to the 2021 Integrated Review of Security, Defence, Development and Foreign Policy.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness Goldie) (Con)
My Lords, Defence is supporting the refresh of the integrated review. We must ensure that the UK remains ready to deter adversaries in the new era of strategic competition. Taking lessons learned from the past year, we will continue to modernise, build resilience and promote prosperity both domestically and across our global partner network. Any specific policy changes will be determined once the update to the integrated review is concluded. We expect this work to be completed ahead of the Treasury’s Spring Statement.
Lord Coaker (Lab)
My Lords, at the weekend a senior US general said that the British Army was no longer a top-tier fighting force. Yesterday the Defence Secretary said:
“I am happy to say that we have hollowed out and underfunded” —[Official Report, Commons, 30/1/23; col. 18.]
in reference to troop and spending cuts. Does the Minister agree with the Secretary of State? Is that really a summary of the Government’s policy? Will the update of the integrated review see an end to this policy, or will it continue?
Baroness Goldie (Con)
The 2021 integrated review and defence Command Paper highlighted that we must focus on capabilities rather than troop numbers per se. Through Future Soldier, the Army will have a whole focus of over 100,000, comprising 73,000 regular service personnel and 30,100 Army Reserve. However, the noble Lord made an important point about hollowness. Over time and under successive Governments, there has been underinvestment in our land capability requirements. We have recognised that and set out a plan. Future Soldier is part of that. We have published an equipment plan of £242 billion over 10 years, and the Army’s proportion of that is £41 billion, covering, for example, Challenger 3, Boxer and Ajax.
I remind the noble Lord that this Government were responsible for a record-breaking finance settlement for defence—the biggest since the Cold War—and it should be acknowledged that we have made a serious attempt to try to redress the hollowing-out process over many years.
Ukraine: Update
Lord Coaker Excerpts(1 year, 10 months ago)
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Lord Coaker (Lab)
My Lords, given that it has been a month since the last update, I once again reiterate our full support on this for the Government, and the people, Government and armed forces of Ukraine. We all understand that illegal force has to be stood up to, or the consequences can be severe, as we know from history. That is why the war in Ukraine is important not only for them but for us. It is the defence of democracy, and a stand for international law.
We have heard various reports about the war, often conflicting, so I wonder if the Minister could tell us what the latest situation is in Ukraine, as far as she is able to. On that point, is it not remarkable how, in the face of Russia’s attacks on Ukraine’s civilian infrastructure, however brutal, it has failed to break the will of the Ukrainian people or their Government? Is it not important that they continue to hear the support of us here in the UK, and of the unity of NATO? Is it not the case that sometimes the importance of maintaining the morale of the civilian population can be forgotten? Personal courage, human fortitude and a determination to stand up for what is right need to be saluted wherever they occur, in this instance in Ukraine. Can the Minister update us on the provision of food, energy and other supplies to help the Ukrainian people in their need?
The Secretary-General of NATO said a few days ago that it is important that we provide Ukraine with the weapons it needs to win, so we support the first package of military assistance for 2023 that the Government have just announced. Can the Minister tell us when the 14 Challenger tanks and the other equipment will be supplied to Ukraine, as I understand that speed of delivery is essential? Where are these tanks coming from—are they in storage or currently in active service?
The integrated review cut the number of Challenger tanks from 227 to 148. Do the Government now regret this decision, and will the review of this decision that the Defence Secretary has announced mean reversing the cuts or increasing the numbers above the original 227? Can the Minister tell us what the Chief of the General Staff meant when, according to press reports, he said that the donation of these tanks would leave a gap in our own capability?
The Prime Minister has ordered a review of UK military aid to Ukraine. Could the Minister update the Chamber on whether this has started and why the Prime Minister felt it was necessary to do that when the importance of our support is obvious?
Over the weekend we were also told that No. 10 has tasked
“the Defence Secretary with bringing together European allies to ensure the surge of global military support is as strategic and coordinated as possible.”
The Defence Secretary is in Estonia and Germany this week, I believe. Can the Minister reassure us that European unity remains as strong as ever and that Ukraine is being provided with all the weapons it needs from us all and, indeed, from all our allies?
There was one particularly interesting sentence in the Defence Secretary’s Statement that I draw the Chamber’s attention to. He said that this military package means that Ukraine
“can go from resisting to expelling Russian forces from Ukrainian soil.”
Is that now the Government’s strategic aim?
President Putin believed that his forces would win in Ukraine in a matter of days. He believed that NATO’s resolve would weaken and that western support would fracture and split. In fact, the opposite has happened: NATO is strengthened and we have all shown great resolve, but nowhere near the resolve and bravery of the people of Ukraine and its armed forces. We must continue to do that. Would it not be appropriate for this Chamber and all of us in this Parliament to demonstrate this through not just a Statement but a full debate in this Chamber, so that many noble Lords can contribute to show our solidarity with the people of Ukraine? There is a war in Ukraine, a struggle for democracy on our doorstep. We should debate it in full in this Chamber.
Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)
My Lords, as usual on matters of defence and in particular Ukraine, from these Benches I fully support the words of the noble Lord, Lord Coaker. These Benches also support what the Government are trying to achieve in Ukraine.
The Secretary of State for Defence has again given a very considered Statement to the other place. We should be grateful for the fact that he has been in post now for a considerable amount of time. He has not been one of the Ministers subject to repeated rotations. That is important, because we need to send the right messages—not just to Ukraine, the Ukrainian Government and the Ukrainian people but to Vladimir Putin and Russia—that we are standing shoulder to shoulder with Ukraine in its battle for its independence and sovereignty.
First, I note the helicopter crash yesterday and the loss of the Interior Minister, the Deputy Interior Minister and others from Ukraine since the Statement was given in the other place. I send sincere condolences to their families, and to the Government of Ukraine, whom I hope will be able to find worthy replacements in the interior ministry, because it is important that the Government of Ukraine can continue to defend themselves and their country as effectively as they have been doing for the past 11 months.
I very much support the suggestion from the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, that we should have a full debate on Ukraine. We are coming up to the first anniversary of the invasion, and I wonder whether the usual channels could consider having a full debate, perhaps as soon as we come back after the half-term recess.
The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, raised questions about what is happening with supplies of food and energy. I noted in the Statement that the Secretary of State talked about the importance of
“collective efforts diplomatically, economically and militarily.”
As one might imagine, much of the Statement is about the military support that His Majesty’s Government propose to give. I realise that this is not quite the Minister’s remit, but could she tell the House whether there are any further moves for co-operation and co-ordination in economic and diplomatic sanctions and other activities to reinforce our commitment to ensuring that Russia understands the strength of western feeling on these matters?
The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, asked about the tanks we are proposing to send. In addition to the question of the location of the tanks, one of the other questions we need to think about is what availability of equipment His Majesty’s Government have. The Hansard recorders and the Minister will probably think, “Oh, no, does Baroness Smith of Newnham really have to ask this question again?” But I think I do, because we are 11 months into this war and our support for Ukraine. Can the Minister advise the House, not on specific negotiations that would breach commercial confidentiality, but on what work His Majesty’s Government are doing with suppliers, particularly small and medium-sized enterprises, to ensure that supply chains are in place? It was one thing in February and March 2022 to say, “We will support Ukraine. We will supply artillery” and so on and so forth. But, 11 months on, are His Majesty’s Government really sure that the UK has the supplies that we need and that in the pipeline for 2023, 2024 and 2025 we have the capabilities? We support the acceleration of support for Ukraine, but the Government need to be very clear that they have in place equipment and supply chain availability to ensure that we can keep the commitments that we are making. They are the right commitments, but we need to be able to deliver.
Baroness Goldie (Con)
I thank my noble friend for referring to that interesting issue of public opinion in Russia. I have stumbled upon a bit of my briefing that I was trying to find: a Statement that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State made in the other place on 20 December. He noted:
“Russian public opinion is starting to turn. Data reportedly collected by Russia’s Federal Protective Service indicated that 55% of Russians now favour peace talks with Ukraine, with only 25% claiming to support the war’s continuation. In April, the latter figure was around 80%.”—[Official Report, Commons, 20/12/22; col. 155.]
That is a very interesting indicator of where opinion is going.
I am afraid that I do not have information on the plight of prisoners within Russia. That is very much the responsibility of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, but I can speak to my noble friend Lord Ahmad to see if we can provide any more information.
Lord Coaker (Lab)
My Lords, I made a mistake in not noting the helicopter incident at the beginning of my remarks, even though it was in my notes. So I associate myself with the remarks made by the Minister and the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, on that subject. I apologise for keeping the House, but it is important, from the point of view of His Majesty’s Opposition, to put that on the record.
Baroness Meyer (Con)
I will also add that, apparently, a lot of children were killed in that incident, because the helicopter landed next to a school.