Armed Forces Act (Continuation) Order 2022

Lord Coaker Excerpts

Tuesday 5th July 2022 Lords Chamber

I hope your Lordships will support and approve this draft continuation order, which will provide the sound legal basis for our Armed Forces to continue to afford us their vital protection, which is more needed than ever in Europe’s new reality. I beg to move.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, we of course fully support this SI so that the Armed Forces Act 2006 can remain in force. It gives us a chance once again to offer the Armed Forces our full support and acknowledge all that they do, as the Minister said. The order is essential for the Armed Forces to be maintained as disciplined bodies. Indeed, it is as a result of this discipline that our Armed Forces are so successful in the discharge of their duties, whether at home or abroad, which she outlined for us. The need for our Armed Forces has been brought into sharp focus by events in Ukraine following Russia’s illegal invasion.

We are all proud of the way in which our country has supported Ukraine, and we need to ensure that it goes on as long as necessary. I ask the Government continually to explain to the British public the importance of our efforts and that we are defending democracy and freedom in eastern Europe, and for the rest of Europe and ourselves. Their fight is our fight. There will be other occasions to discuss this more broadly as well as the recent NATO summit in Madrid, the new strategy that emerged from it, defence spending and the future of our Armed Forces, including the mistake, as we see it, of reducing our Army by 10,000 troops, a decision which needs to be reviewed.

I have one specific question relating to the order. It is about Article 1(2), which states:

“This Order extends to England and Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland, the Isle of Man and the British overseas territories”.


I understand that, but can the Minister explain why it continues:

“(except Gibraltar) and the Channel Islands”?

We have a base in Gibraltar and our Armed Forces serve there, and I assume that there are some Armed Forces activities in and around the Channel Islands, and I wonder why they are not included.

I thank the Minister for her comments. As she said, we are rightly proud of our Armed Forces, whether they are supporting local communities, delivering aid or defending human rights, democracy and freedom in Europe and beyond. We will never take them for granted. They are respected across this Parliament and across the world, and for that we are humbled and grateful.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

From these Benches I echo the words of the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, and the Minister in supporting the Armed Forces and recognising the huge debt that we as a country owe them every day of every year.

When I realised there was yet another Armed Forces Act (Continuation) Order, I began to think that perhaps I was getting so old that time was running away from me, because it did not feel like a year since we last debated the continuation of the Armed Forces Act. Then I looked and realised that Her Majesty gave Royal Assent only in December 2021, so it is not quite that we have gone a year without discussing the Armed Forces.

In some ways, this legislation ought to be the most important parliamentary business that we conduct. Having our Armed Forces is vital. We often talk about the security of the realm being the most important duty of government, but at the moment we do not see very many people on the Government Benches. It may be that noble Lords are busy trying to work out whether there is indeed a Government who are going to ensure that the Armed Forces provide the security of the realm at the moment. I hope that the Secretary of State for Defence will remain in his role for a little while longer, because we clearly need to ensure that defence is a top priority.

This is a very simple piece of legislation, but it is very important. As the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, said, it matters because of discipline. The Minister mentioned that statutory instruments will be coming forward in future. I looked to see whether my noble friend Lord Thomas was here because I normally rely on him to deal with the legal aspect of forces discipline and those aspects of Armed Forces legislation.

This order gives us the opportunity not just to pay tribute to our Armed Forces but to ask Her Majesty’s Government what they are doing not just to ensure that there can be service discipline and that our Armed Forces are loyal to the Queen, but that as a country and a Parliament we are ensuring that our Armed Forces have the resources they require in terms of procurement, that the equipment they work with is adequate and does not cause health issues, that they have adequate accommodation, that their morale is ensured, and that we look again at forces numbers because having legislation that simply says “We have Armed Forces” is not sufficient. We need to ensure that our Armed Forces are fit for the 21st century and for the many tasks that are asked of them. I hope that in her reply the Minister will be able to go a little broader than the legislation in front of us today.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord and apologise for failing to pick up on his question first time round. I have good news to share. The Henriques report was, frankly, excellent, and pivotal to redirecting how the MoD should conduct activity within the service justice system. I remind your Lordships that Henriques found that that system was, in its own respect, robust, professional and capable. Importantly, the Defence Serious Crime Unit has been set up, and a provost marshal has been appointed to run it. There are to be improvements to Military Police investigations, but the Military Police are now benefitting from additional training which they share with their civilian counterparts. That is a very important aspect of how we assist our Military Police in dealing with investigations. There have been other improvements in how we expect witnesses to give evidence and the protections we can afford to them when they give evidence, including victims, so that that much more replicates the safeguards we find in the civilian criminal justice system.

What might be helpful to the noble Lord is for me to go back and task my official who is preparing a little précis of the progress that has been made—progress has been constant and it has been important—and undertake to write to the noble Lord with that. I will put the letter in the Library so that that information is more broadly available.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for that very helpful reply about the Henriques review and the progress being made with it. Given that she said that this order does not apply to Gibraltar, and has outlined the way in which discipline will be progressed through the Henriques review and other regulations as they come forward, does that mean that none of the regulations as they relate to discipline and apply with respect to this order will apply to Gibraltar? The Minister may not be able to answer, but she gave a very helpful answer about the Henriques review, which deals with service discipline and service justice, and outlined the progress made with respect to its implementation. But given that this order does not apply to Gibraltar—if I understood it right, the Gibraltar Government have their own rules—what does that mean for regulations such as the Henriques review with respect to Gibraltar?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

It is probably important to distinguish between discipline, which is one of the tenets of our UK Armed Forces, and operating according to a code of behaviour and under a chain of command. That is what the Armed Forces Act embraces and what the annual renewal order refreshes every year. That is entirely to do with United Kingdom forces and how they are constituted. Gibraltar and the Channel Islands are outwith that.

On the question of how we run our service justice system, I may be wrong but I think that the service justice system is distinct from Gibraltar because Gibraltar has its own administrative and legislative processes. I will inquire on that, and undertake to write in greater detail to the noble Lord.

Royal Navy: Ships

Lord Coaker Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

As I indicated to the noble Lord, Lord West, we currently have HMS “Scott” continuing to do very important and necessary work. I would not want to give any impression that that infrastructure is not being protected. It is, but what we naturally look to is a replacement and successor for HMS “Scott”.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, following on from my noble friend Lord West’s Question, I think the House will be disappointed that the Minister said that it was too early to say anything about when the design would take place, when the ordering would take place and when we can expect these two ships to be in operational service. Would the Minister go back to the Ministry of Defence and say that we would like greater clarity on timing of all this? Furthermore, if it is the Government’s intention that these ships are built in Britain, will that be the default position? Should there be one British tender for either or both of these ships that will see them, particularly the national British flagship, built in Britain?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

They are very different ships, as the noble Lord will understand. The intention is that the National Shipbuilding Office for the MROSS will seek to maximise the opportunities for UK industry in these programmes, but within the boundaries of our international legal obligations. As he is aware, national security will be attached to the national flagship and it will be built in the UK.

Ukraine: UK and NATO Military Commitment

Lord Coaker Excerpts

Tuesday 21st June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

It is the start of Armed Forces Week, so I begin by thanking them for all they do. We also reiterate our full support for the Government’s actions in Ukraine.

In continuing this support, the Prime Minister said last Friday that we would offer to train 10,000 Ukrainian soldiers every three months. Can the Minister say when this will start and give more detail of the plan? For example, where will they be trained—in the UK or another NATO country?

We also know that the Ukrainians have asked for more weapons. Can the Minister explain the Defence Minister’s remarks in the other place? He said that the Prime Minister and Defence Procurement Minister met yesterday morning to discuss

“escalating the supply of NATO standard equipment”.—[Official Report, Commons, 20/6/22; col. 558.]

New contracts are also under discussion. Can the Minister say more about that and explain what it means?

The new head of the Army is also reported to have said that we need an Army capable of fighting Russia in battle. Can the Minister clarify those remarks? Were they actually said and if so, what was meant? Is that accurate? Whatever he meant, a reduction in our Army of a further 10,000 soldiers is not in our interest or that of our allies, is it? The Government need to rethink this.

Ukraine: UK Military Support

Lord Coaker Excerpts

Wednesday 11th May 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, we remain united with the Government in their condemnation of Russia and the actions that they have taken so far in meeting this threat. Once again, we also recognise the bravery of the people of Ukraine. We therefore fully support the Government’s recent announcement of the additional £1.3 billion of aid and, with that, the extra military equipment that they are providing. Can the Minister outline what the additional £1 billion of that £1.3 billion is to be spent on, and can she give any further detail about the inquiry into UK components ending up in Russian weapons?

In the light of the war in Ukraine and the provision of this military equipment, have the Government reconsidered any of their existing defence plans? Surely it is now time for a rethink on, for example, cuts to the number of soldiers—something that the head of the Army himself said only this week when he said that the British Army is too small.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord. I indicated in the Statement some of the equipment that is going out; I understand that this will include UAV systems to provide logistical support to isolated forces and that new, specialised Toyota Land Cruisers will be going out. I offer to write to the noble Lord with a more specific list of information. In relation to the use of equipment, we supply it to Ukraine and it is for the Ukrainian armed forces to then determine how they deploy and use it. However, our supply of that equipment is to enable Ukraine to defend itself.

On the size of the military, I refer the noble Lord to the integrated review, the comprehensive spending review and, importantly, Future Soldier, which detailed how we envisage the shape of the military in forthcoming years and was signed off at the highest levels in the MoD. It is interesting to reflect on how the conflict in Ukraine has unfolded. It has been clear that the might of Russia in terms of numbers of soldiers has actually been of questionable effect when, in Ukraine, an ably trained, very professional, well-equipped force, armed with intelligence, has been able to be very effective in its defence. These are complicated matters but it is perfectly clear that mere numbers are not sufficient.

Ukraine Update

Lord Coaker Excerpts

Wednesday 27th April 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, in this House and across Parliament and beyond, as the Minister knows, we are united in our support for Ukraine and the actions the Government have taken. The courage shown by the Ukrainian people, both military and civilian, has been remarkable, and this bravery has echoed across the globe since the Russian invasion began, inspiring us all.

We have all condemned the invasion of a sovereign country and the barbaric acts that have been carried out in its name. We remain determined to end this unjustifiable war and ensure that all those responsible are brought to justice for their war crimes. These efforts have seen Russia forced into a new phase of changed tactics this week. The goal of outright conquest has been abandoned and the focus is now on the east.

Can the Minister share what further military assistance the Ukrainian Government have requested from the UK to deal with this new offensive? As Finland and Sweden are reportedly seeking to join NATO in response to the invasion, what steps are the Government taking to reassure our democratic partners that we will stand with them against any Russian aggression and consider quickly such applications?

Is it not the case that, rather than weakening NATO, Russia’s actions have strengthened it: the complete opposite of what it intended and indeed expected? Overnight we have heard reports of false flag attacks in the breakaway Transnistria region of Moldova, as well as a renewed attack on the Azovstal steel plant, which houses resilient survivors of the brutal siege of Mariupol. It was also reported this morning that hangers in the Zaporizhzhia region, containing European and US weapons and ammunition, were destroyed by Russian missiles.

Can the Minister share what intelligence she can on this, particularly whether any UK-supplied provisions were lost? Talking of intelligence, does the Minister have any update on our assessment of Russian threats to attack Western targets? It is vital that we stand together to show that we will not be intimidated by any such threats. We welcome the announcement made by the Secretary of State on Monday to further supply Ukraine. Armoured vehicles fitted with anti-air missiles will enhance the short-range anti-air capabilities of the Ukrainian military. We also welcome efforts to move equipment from other allies to Ukraine.

Could the Minister say what logistical support the UK is providing to our allies to ensure that military aid reaches the front lines? The Secretary of State has said that the UK will seek to enable, or supply more long-range artillery and ammunition, as well as anti-ship missiles which Ukraine needs. Alongside that, what aerial reconnaissance is being provided? It has been only two days since the announcement, but I wonder if the Minister can update the Chamber on what is being done to deliver these weapons?

What is required next is a shift from old Soviet-era weapons, which enabled a short-term response to the initial offensive, to a medium term strategy in response to the latest phase. This will require newer NATO weapons and training for the Ukrainians to use them. Can the Minister outline what steps the Government are taking to facilitate that?

I also understand that approximately 1,000 UK troops are on standby for humanitarian support in the countries immediately adjoining Ukraine. Is there anything the Minister can tell us about their deployment and work?

I now turn to the front page of the Daily Telegraph this morning and the article which reports the Foreign Secretary making a speech, this evening I think, calling for plane parts to be sent to Ukraine and for increased defence spending. Will the Prime Minister, the Chancellor and the Ministry of Defence be involved in signing off these plans, and what plans do the Government have to review defence spending? Can the Minister update us on the Foreign Secretary saying that the free world will need to “reboot, recast and remodel” its approach to tackling aggressors, and that Ukraine has to be a catalyst for wider change. What does that mean for our current defence posture, and is that being reviewed?

Could the Minister update us on the total amount that the Government has now spent on military aid to Ukraine, including non-lethal equipment and how does this compare to our key allies? Are we now confident that all NATO partners, including Germany, are united in the provision of military equipment?

To conclude, it is the case that the Ukrainians’ fight is our fight, and it is vital that we stand together against this unprovoked aggression, and prepare if necessary for the long haul. This country has a proud history of standing up for freedom and democracy and we must continue to do so today. We know the consequences of not doing so.

Ukraine: Defence in a Competitive Age

Lord Coaker Excerpts

Thursday 7th April 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I demur somewhat with my noble friend’s analysis. I have outlined an extensive programme of investment that will take place over the next 10, 15 and 20 years, and I think that that has been well received within the single forces. It is seen as a commitment by the Government to the serious business of defence and discharging our roles responsibly and effectively. The new model of the Army to which he refers, under the Future Soldier proposals, will in fact create a much more agile, flexible and resilient Army, able to deal at pace with the different characters of threats, whenever and wherever they arise. This is a matter of reassurance and commendation.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, given the new security situation in Europe following events in Ukraine, is it the case that, as David Williams, the Permanent Secretary, said to the Public Accounts Committee in February,

“the integrated review looks right to me, but we will of course want to review the calibration and our understanding of the threat and what the right response will need to be”?

So is there to be a review and what will that mean, particularly for the Army—as the noble Lord, Lord Robathan, raised—which is losing 700 warrior infantry vehicles earlier than planned, facing troop cuts and losing a third of its Challenger 2 battle tanks, if we are to potentially fight the kind of land-based conventional warfare launched by Putin?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

As we understand the impact of the threat from Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, we will of course keep plans under review—I have indicated that and we will of course do that. We will remain threat-led; that is our raison d’être and how we operate, and we continue to review our capabilities and readiness levels accordingly. All of that is predicated on both the integrated review and the defence Command Paper. But the integrated review outlined that defence forces must prepare for more persistent global engagement and constant campaigning to counter emerging threats. So although we may not have anticipated conflict so quickly, the review recognised the threats posed by aggression from our adversaries. I remind your Lordships that the integrated review and defence Command Paper set out a year ago that the greatest nuclear, conventional military and sub-threshold threat to European security is posed by Russia.

Ukraine: Lethal Weapons

Lord Coaker Excerpts

Tuesday 5th April 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I respond to my noble friend by saying that the United Kingdom is a friend of Ukraine and Ukraine is a friend of the United Kingdom. We stand by our friends. We have a clear mission diplomatically, politically, economically and militarily as we continue our enduring bilateral partnership with Ukraine. As I said earlier, this hideous, barbaric venture of Vladimir Putin’s must end in failure.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, I start by reiterating our full support for the actions being taken by Her Majesty’s Government to help Ukraine in the face of unprovoked Russian aggression. We read in the media about the Prime Minister and the Defence Secretary talking of the need to send more lethal weapons to Ukraine. Are we sending more of the same or are we sending different weapons? In other words, what does the Prime Minister’s statement actually mean? What is our response to President Zelensky’s call for more weapons of a type not only to defend Ukraine from Russia but to drive Russian forces from Ukrainian soil? Ukraine’s fight is our fight and we must do all we can to help.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I referred earlier to the second international donor conference held on 31 March. At that conference, the international community committed to widening its package of military support for Ukraine. This included exploring new ways of sustaining the armed forces of Ukraine over the longer term, including the provision of increasingly capable air and coastal defence systems, artillery and counter-battery capabilities, armoured vehicles and protected mobility, as well as wider training and logistical support. I hope that reassures the noble Lord that there is a coherent response.

Ukraine Update

Lord Coaker Excerpts

Thursday 10th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, first, I state again the full support of Her Majesty’s Opposition for the position the Government have taken on Ukraine. We welcome the military support the Government have given to Ukraine and our NATO allies. It is important to start this debate with a restatement of that fact.

The reports of the barbaric bombing of a children’s hospital and a maternity ward in Mariupol are just the latest horrors to emerge from Ukraine. Goodness knows how many men, women and children have been killed, let alone soldiers. Now we learn that ever-more devastating weapons have been used, such as the thermobaric vacuum bomb, with awful photos and videos emerging of the dead and injured—civilians, not combatants. In light of this update, can the Minister tell the House what the Government’s assessment is of the current situation in Ukraine? Can she also update the House on the progress of the additional military support being provided for Ukraine, including, as we read in our papers today, the Starstreak anti-aircraft missiles? If NATO planes cannot enforce the no-fly zone, we must surely enable the Ukrainians to do so themselves.

Chillingly, we also learned today that western analysts believe that Russia is contemplating the use of chemical weapons. Can the Minister tell us any more about this assessment and what our response would be in the event that they were, shockingly, to be used? What work is going on with the International Criminal Court regarding any future action that may take place as a result?

There is also growing alarm at the prospect of the danger the war poses to nuclear plants at Chernobyl and elsewhere. Can the Minister say anything about what assessment has been made of that threat to us all, and what can be done?

There are also heart-breaking pictures of people desperate to leave, fleeing the country in terror. Can the Minister report any progress on the establishment of humanitarian corridors to enable people to leave, even in the midst of the military conflict?

I very much agree with the Defence Secretary who, in his Statement to the other place yesterday, spoke of the fear of many people here about what will happen next, as President Putin threatens countries that offer help to Ukraine. What do the Government expect to happen? These fears have been expressed to me and, I am sure, to many other noble Lords. I am sure that we would want to do all we can to reassure the people of our country.

In light of all this, is not the Defence Secretary right to have said the following yesterday in the other place? I very much agree with this and am sure everyone will. In talking about this fear, he said:

“We should take strength from the peoples right across Europe who are standing shoulder to shoulder to protect our values—our freedom, our tolerance, our democracy and our free press. That is our shield.”—[Official Report, Commons, 9/3/22; col. 327.]


I could not have put it better myself. I think the Defence Secretary spoke for all of us when he said that yesterday. Is not our unity of purpose and belief our greatest strength, even in these dark days? That unity exists here in this Chamber, as well as across the country. I assure the Minister of our full support on everything the Government are doing.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

In an expression with which the Minister will be familiar, brevitatis causa, I adopt the questions put by the noble Lord who spoke on behalf of the Opposition.

Two matters arise, though, on which I would be grateful for the Minister’s comments. The supply of the laser-guided Starstreak missiles is referred to in the Statement, and there is an element of doubt about whether it can reasonably be described as defensive. Might she expand a little on the Government’s thinking on that?

Turning to another element which I heartily support, there is an obligation or undertaking to make a substantial contribution to humanitarian aid, more of which will inevitably be needed. Many countries bordering Ukraine are taking its refugees, which must constitute a substantial economic burden for them. Will any of the sums referred to in the Statement be made available, in turn, to any of these countries?

This Statement is extraordinary because, on the one hand, it describes unmitigated barbarism and, on the other, breathtaking bravery. The targeting of civilians, their homes and refuges is certainly barbaric, but the bravery is shown in the extraordinary fact that this nation, against all odds, has mobilised to face an enemy described in the Statement as one with “overwhelming firepower”. This enemy targets the elderly, the vulnerable and the young. I ask, not in the hope of getting an answer: what sort of people attack a maternity hospital? Whether done by design or carelessness, by a bomb or, as has been suggested, artillery, it is still a war crime. There should be no doubt about that.

Now we have the use of thermobaric vacuum bombs, a particularly lethal form of attack. That has not emerged as some kind of intelligence information; it has been boasted about publicly on a Russian television network. There is too, as has already been mentioned, the threat of the use of chemical weapons. Indeed, that threat referred not only to chemical but possibly biological weapons. This undoubtedly raises significant matters for consideration perhaps in this country, but most certainly in Ukraine itself.

In spite of all this, the spirit of the citizens of Ukraine has not yet been broken. Russians claim that the people of Ukraine are their brothers and sisters. It is a very curious affection which relies on cruise missiles, helicopter gunships and artillery shells.

My concern is this: as Russian and perhaps Kremlin desperation increases, and as Mr Putin’s schedule is more and more incomplete, other considerations may arise in his mind. He has mentioned nuclear weapons on several occasions. Are we ready for that topic to be mentioned again? I draw to the Minister’s attention, although I suspect she does not need me to, the fact that Russian generals include the notion of nuclear war-fighting as part of their doctrine. It is an issue upon which the Government would be well advised to start consideration now.

Ukraine

Lord Coaker Excerpts

Friday 25th February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, what a privilege it is to speak on behalf of Her Majesty’s Opposition in this historic debate. I start by congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Sedwill, on his maiden speech. We were all informed by it and that is what is important, as the noble Lords, Lord King and Lord Owen, pointed out.

This Chamber may be a revising Chamber, but the experience of the Members who come here informs the policy of Her Majesty’s Government in a way that makes for better legislation and better decision-making when it comes to historic and momentous events such as those which we are debating here today. To have former diplomats of the quality we have mentioned and former military officers, including those who have served at the highest level, informing these debates is of extreme importance. Alongside that, we have Members from the Church and those who have worked in humanitarian roles. All bring relevant experience to this debate, which can only help inform us on what are, to be fair to the Government—this would be the case whoever was in government—immensely difficult decisions as to the best way forward. There is no division between us—or 99.9% of us—but there is of course debate and discussion, even within government, on the best way forward.

I start by saying to the Government, as did my noble friend Lady Smith last night, that we stand four-square with them in supporting the actions they have taken in respect of Ukraine and trying to deter the aggression from Russia. That is a really important message for the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, who introduced this debate with her usual clarity and provided information for us all. I thank her again for that. No doubt the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, will follow in that as well when he responds to this wide-ranging debate.

I will say just a few words of introduction. On days like this, people talk about rhetoric. Sometimes it is important. Sometimes words matter. People across the world will hear what is being said in this Chamber, one of the historic debating Chambers of the world. In this historic debate, words and voices should ring out from this Chamber in rightful condemnation of President Putin and support for the people of Ukraine—indeed, for all those fighting for freedom, including, as we heard from the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, and others, the brave people we are seeing in pictures from Moscow and other cities in Russia protesting about the war. One can only imagine the bravery of those people in doing that.

As we have done throughout our proud history, we stand on the side of democracy, human rights and freedom. In the end, are those not what President Putin fears more than anything else? Going back again to the brilliant speech of the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, as well as the remarks made by the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, and the noble Lord, Lord Tugendhat, is it not democracy and freedom on the doorstep of Russia that frighten President Putin more than anything else? When the people of Russia look out to the way in which human rights are respected in an independent, democratic Ukraine, is that not what frightens him? Is that not what undermines his system—in many ways, more than tanks and military campaigns can?

Today is a day of many words. We have heard many great speeches but the words from this Chamber will echo around the world and across Europe. Let the people of Ukraine hear loudly and clearly that we stand with them, as we do with everybody across eastern Europe. Your fight is our fight. Your struggle is our struggle. Your battle is our battle. All of us thought—indeed, hoped—that the dark days of the past had gone. As the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, sought to remind us, we believed that one state aggressively invading another in Europe had been consigned to the dustbin of history along with the enormous human cost, as millions of lives were lost to establish this principle in Europe and across the world.

However, let Russia and its ally, Belarus, know that we will do everything in our power with our allies to stand up once again for international law and the right to national self-determination. More than anything else, alongside our debates about sanctions, the best way forward and all those things, these issues of principle need to ring out from this Chamber so that they are heard loud and clear across Europe, in Russia and around the world. We are proud to stand for that. It is our history and we are proud to remind everybody of it.

Specifically, we support the Government on sanctions. No doubt the Government will seek ways to extend those sanctions and make them more effective; they have our support in doing that. I stand with the people such as the noble Lord, Lord Ricketts, who pointed out that this may be a long-term measure; it will not necessarily be won in the short term. I join the noble Lords, Lord Anderson, Lord Tugendhat, Lord Adonis and Lord Davies, among others, in saying that we need to prepare the British public to understand that this is their fight as well. This is important to them. This fight for freedom matters to people on the streets of Birmingham, Glasgow, Belfast and Cardiff. Part of that cost, and part of what may happen, is that gas, electricity and petrol bills may go up. We need to be honest with people about that for them to understand that, in standing in solidarity with the people of Ukraine, that is the cost that will have to be paid. I tell noble Lords this: I do not believe that the British public will shirk from that. Never have they been found wanting when it comes to standing with other people in the defence of freedom and democracy across the world; I do not believe that they will be found wanting in this instance either.

We support the Government on sanctions and look to the Government to take what further action they can. I very much agreed with the Defence Secretary when he pointed out on the radio this morning that we believe action should be taken on SWIFT. Speaking on behalf of the UK Government, he said that we believe that and need to persuade our international partners based in Belgium and elsewhere that it is the right thing to do. We can only wish them well with respect to that because we think that it will make a real difference.

We need to stand with the people of Ukraine. They need to understand that we will work with them. As the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, and the noble Lord, Lord Dannatt, said, we must support them with military equipment—not troops—and make sure that they get the equipment they need if it comes to resistance. As we speak, we learn of hundreds of casualties. Goodness only knows what the truth is and what the consequences of shelling are. We stand with the Ukrainian people so that they know they can have equipment. If it comes to resistance, again, there will be some hard decisions for the Government about how we will support those who seek to resist a Russian occupation.

No doubt the Government will be thinking about what we do with respect to NATO and defence spending. It might be that all of us—our country, the western alliances and all those standing up for freedom and democracy across the world—will have to re-evaluate where defence comes and what we spend on it. We all thought that the dividend from the end of the Cold War meant that we did not have to spend the money we should be spending on defence—none of us wants to spend on defence if it perhaps means less for schools, health or international aid and all the things we want to spend money on. But the defence of freedom, democracy and human rights also has a cost. We have to say to our public and to each other that we have sometimes taken it for granted, and we will have to spend more to defend that freedom. I know that point has been made by many noble Lords.

The importance of NATO was pointed out by the noble Lords, Lord Campbell, Lord Alton, Lord King, Lord Robathan and Lord Walney, the noble Baronesses, Lady Meyer and Lady McIntosh, the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, my noble friends Lord West, Lord Robertson, Lord Anderson, Lord Browne and Lord Adonis, and many others. Again, we have often taken NATO for granted. My noble friend Lord Robertson, who was Secretary-General or whatever the official title is—the leader of NATO—has reminded us constantly of NATO. But the serious point is that NATO was set up not as an aggressive alliance but as a defensive alliance, to protect the hard-won freedoms and hard-won democracy across western Europe that we take for granted. We need to be reminded of the importance of NATO and how we reinforce it. No doubt the Government will look at that.

We heard from the Minister about the additional troops, air power and no doubt ships that are being placed into countries in eastern Europe within the context of NATO. People say that that is not important. I say that, alongside what is happening in Ukraine, it is especially important for President Putin and others to recognise and realise that we mean what we say in NATO. That is why we are reinforcing the eastern borders in the countries that surround Ukraine. We believe that NATO is a defensive alliance, and we mean what we say: we will defend those countries. Those countries on the border of Ukraine need to know and understand that.

I have a couple of final points. I could not agree more with noble Lords who pointed out that this is a global issue—it is Russia versus the world. The great battle of the decades to come will be between democracy and autocracy. We need to stand with those such as the ambassador from Kenya, who stood up at the United Nations—the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, might well have been there, as he has been in the last few days— and pointed out that what was a European fight was also Kenya’s fight, because he understood that if the rule of law is undermined it has an impact. Whatever continent you happen to be on, that will undermine it. We have to take action globally.

Let this be another turning point in history. Let this be another reminder that this country, with its allies, will never turn its back on those defending freedom and democracy. Let everyone know that, however terrible these days are, we will never be cowed from doing the right thing. We will always be ready to stand with those fighting oppression. We have done so in the past and we must do so again.

Defence: Type 45 Destroyers

Lord Coaker Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I am almost tempted to answer the question the other way around and say that, with the integrated review, the defence Command Paper and the allocation of budget to defence over the duration of this Parliament and exactly what that means for both equipment and shipbuilding, we have seen that there is a very manifest political resolve to support defence and ensure our capability is as good as it can be. As to the more strategic questions of how you relate what you are doing at the MoD end with what is required out on the front, as the noble and gallant Lord will understand, we are constantly assessing, identifying and recognising threat and addressing that with the multifaceted character of the capability we have.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, the chair of the Defence Select Committee recently said that

“our Navy will soon be too small to defend our interests and deal with emerging threats.”

Given that the noble Baroness has just told us that the six warships will not all be seaworthy until 2028, can the Government confirm that they have a Navy relevant to the needs of this country in terms of the threats we face? How does the fact that, at the beginning of February, all six warships were in dock help us defend our country and those of our allies?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

As the noble Lord will be aware, all our ships are subject to planned maintenance schedules; that is how the Navy operates. As to the broader question of whether we have a Navy that is fit for purpose, I think the answer is yes, we do. If you look at the success of the carrier strike group, which was regarded as a universal declaration of naval strength across the globe, if you look at the supporting assets which were out in attendance to the carrier and if you consider that, for the first time in 30 years, we have two classes of frigate simultaneously under construction in UK yards—the noble Lord might be envious of that; I know he will regard that with pleasure, but it was not something that occurred when his party was in government—I would say that the Navy is in very good shape.