Relations with Europe

Lord Coaker Excerpts

Thursday 10th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Coaker) (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome the many positive and challenging contributions on this topic, all said in a way that seeks to improve public policy to do what it can with respect to the UK-Europe relationship. People come from different perspectives, but we all want the best for our own country.

I will endeavour to answer many of the points; whether I attribute them to the right noble Lord remains to be seen, and I apologise if I get it wrong. If I miss something that was directly asked of me, I will write to noble Lords and place a copy in the Library. A number of points were made relating to numerous government departments. I accept that I am answering for the Government, so I will go through Hansard and make sure that the various points made to different government departments are sent to the relevant Government Ministers so that they can take the appropriate action.

I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, on an excellent topic for debate, and the way in which it has contributed towards encouraging numerous noble Lords to stay through a Thursday afternoon into the early evening. That shows the importance of this debate. I also thank her for the way in which she introduced the debate and raised many of the important issues, some of which I will deal with as I respond to the debate. It is a particularly appropriate time for us to debate this.

I will spend a little while congratulating my noble friend Lady Hodge on her wonderful maiden speech. I will not go into all the years that we have known each other, and the various ups and downs now and again—mainly ups. On a personal note, I think all of us have found her an inspiration in the way that she has dealt with some of the difficulties she has faced with respect to anti-Semitism. One of the great tributes to her as a person is that she has never become cynical or negative about that. She has seen anti-Semitism as the issue and fought it but recognised that, for the vast majority of people in this country, anti-Semitism is as abhorrent as she feels it is. We are very pleased that she is with us.

I also say to my noble friend that economic crime, which I know has been close to her heart, is really important. Dirty money is something that all of us in this Chamber have debated through many Bills. The noble Lord, Lord Purvis, has been with me on various committees where we certainly pressurised the then Government. We should continue to say to our own Government that, from our perspective, we need to do as much as we can to tackle Russian dirty money. Indeed, we should see any economic crime as the priority that it is. I make that point to her.

It is really important to see the context within which this debate takes place. There will be disagreements with and disappointments about individual policies that the Government may pursue and the ways in which they will pursue some of the challenges that they face; I will come to one or two of those. But have no doubt about it: there is now a Government in this country who seek a positive relationship with Europe in its widest sense, and want to establish better relationships with EU Governments and wider European Governments, at the collective level and at an individual bilateral level.

We will work to reset the relationship with our European friends, to strengthen ties, to secure a broad-based security pact and to tackle barriers to trade. We will build stronger and wider co-operation in a whole range of areas. We will look forward, not backwards, by improving our trade and investment relationship with the EU and Europe more generally, while recognising that there will be no return to the single market, the customs union or freedom of movement. This is about turning the page, reinvigorating alliances and forging new partnerships with our European friends, rather than reopening the divisions of the past.

We will work to improve the UK’s trade and investment relationship with the EU, tearing down unnecessary barriers to trade and strengthening co-operation to keep our people safe. This should not come as a surprise, as the previous Government frequently acknowledged that there was still much work to do to improve UK-EU and UK-European relations. There is more we can do to minimise friction with our major trading partners, by reducing barriers for professionals to do business across the channel, as well as strengthening co-operation on the security threats that we face.

As I say, this is not about renegotiating or relitigating Brexit but about looking forward and realising the potential of the UK-Europe relationship. We have been clear that these trading relationships can be improved, including through the mutual recognition of professional qualifications and in areas such as helping touring artists. This is about not just the EU, as I say, but Europe as a whole. A new era for these relationships is what we seek to achieve, culturally and diplomatically, and from a defence and security point as well—bilaterally and collectively too.

Your Lordships will recall that the Prime Minister, as the noble Lord, Lord Howell, pointed out, hosted 46 leaders from across Europe, including President Zelensky, at Blenheim Palace just before the Summer Recess. Others will recall the marked increase in engagements in the past few months, not only by the Prime Minister but by the Foreign Secretary, the Defence Secretary and many other Ministers, with their respective counterparts.

These relationships are not only at a political level. As many noble Lords have made clear in this debate, they include but are not limited to improving our relationship with the European Union. Many noble Lords have spoken about the people-to-people relationships. We are aware of the British support for the Paris Olympic and Paralympic Games. There is the upcoming co-hosting of the UEFA championships with Ireland in 2028. There are also renewed commitments to the UK-France Lancaster House treaties and His Majesty’s Government’s ongoing work to develop a friendship treaty with Germany. We are doing all we can to reset the relationship and improve it.

That is the context in which this debate takes place. We have no hesitation as a new Government in saying that we want to have a better relationship with Europe, and we want to establish it. I say this to noble Lords: in the discussions I have had with Ministers from across the European Union and beyond, I felt that they too believe that there is a reset and that we now have a Government who do not see Europe somehow as almost the enemy of this country. It is an important step forward to have that trust and that relationship. The ability to recognise that we now work from a position of mutual respect and trust is really important.

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, spoke about the bilateral strengthening of our security relationship and mentioned Poland. I was in Poland recently at the Warsaw Security Forum. The UK is seen as a valuable partner there—not just an add-on, but right at the centre of the demands of Poland, the Baltic states, Romania and all the countries there, as well as the more traditional European countries. They want us at the heart of things, working with them on a new EU security pact, our commitment to NATO, and their defence against the Russian threat. We have been talking to Germany and have a new agreement. We are refreshing the Lancaster House agreement, and we are talking to Ireland as well. As I have said, many visits have been made.

The noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, pointed out the importance of NATO, which will remain the foremost military alliance we have, but the UK-EU security pact gives us the opportunity to reflect on where there are other things we can do. As the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, pointed out, we may use that relationship or that vehicle on migration and some other matters involving security while NATO remains the fundamental part of our military alliance.

I look forward to meeting the noble Baroness, Lady Helic, before I go to Bosnia in a couple of weeks’ time and hearing her experience and knowledge. I say to her, and to the noble Lords, Lord Hannay and Lord Howell, that we understand the difficulties in the west Balkans and we will look at what more we can do to support the work that has been going on there. To be fair, some of that was under the previous Government, but we will look to see whether there is more that we can do. We understand the deepening concerns in that area, which is one of the reasons why I am going to go there—to see what more we can do.

The noble Lords, Lord Jay and Lord Bilimoria, pointed out the importance within the EU of the Joint Expeditionary Force. Again, we will look to see what we can do and work with our neighbours. We know the importance of the High North, the change that climate change is bringing to that area, and the increasing problems and threats we have there.

The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, mentioned the PESCO arrangements and what we should do with permanent structural organisations in which we try to work together. We will not make a general statement that we will join all of them but look at them on a case-by-case basis.

The noble Lord, Lord Howell, mentioned the European Political Community. We see that as an important addition. It is an informal arrangement as it stands, but it has brought people together in a forum that no other European multilateral institution offers, even with respect to the Council of Europe.

The noble Lord, Lord Russell, mentioned the Council of Europe. The noble Lord, Lord Anderson, was another significant member of the Council of Europe over the years. I also mention my noble friend Lord Griffiths in this respect. Forgive me if other people in this Chamber have been members of the Council of Europe—I notice the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, and I beg his pardon. There are people who have been members right across this Chamber. It is a fundamentally important place where countries come together. The noble Lord, Lord Russell, was right to point out the importance of the Council of Europe, of our membership and of all Governments taking it particularly seriously going forward.

The noble Lords, Lord Ricketts, Lord Bruce, Lord Liddle, Lord Hannay, Lord Wallace and Lord Jay, and others mentioned the importance of delivering the forthcoming EU-UK security pact and of diplomacy and bilateral relationships. This Government’s fundamental point is that we are not afraid of saying that we need international co-operation and relationships to deal with the problems we face. We talked about that in this House at great length when we spoke about the need to tackle migration. We said that by working together we can overcome these problems. We have to come together to do that. On security, migration and climate, we will seek to work together.

I say to the noble Lords, Lord Anderson, Lord Wallace, Lord Jay and Lord Ricketts, that we work closely with the higher education sector, but we do not have any plans to rejoin the Erasmus scheme. However, I say to the noble Lord, Lord Jay, that we recognise the importance of student exchanges and are looking to see whether there are other ways of delivering the same desired outcome of Erasmus.

There was some scepticism about the value of Turing. This year, 2024-25, £105 million is available to send 43,000 students abroad, both school students and those in higher education, and 23,000 of those are from disadvantaged backgrounds. I appreciate that some noble Lords may be sceptical about the Turing scheme, but I just point that out as something for us to consider in our deliberations. On the point from the noble Lord, Lord Jay, of course student exchanges are important. The Government seek a better way to deliver the same things within the context we are in.

On culture, I say to the noble Lords, Lord Ricketts and Lord Purvis, that we have no plans to look at an EU-wide youth mobility scheme. However, I take the point about trying to deliver the same thing through bilateral relationships—no doubt the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, will look at whether we have been able to succeed and deliver that. I will ensure that the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Ricketts, on VAT on education—with respect to schools run by other European countries in the UK—are looked at by the relevant department.

On touring artists, we are committed to working collaboratively across departments to address musicians, performing artists and their support staff being able to tour across the EU. We recognise that that is a very live issue. The noble Lords, Lord Berkeley and Lord Ricketts, the noble Baronesses, Lady Bonham-Carter and Lady Helic, and a number of others made that point. We accept that there is a real issue and we are trying to ensure that our touring artists are not in any way disadvantaged. We are looking at how we can do that. We will also look at how we engage with the European Commission and EU member states and explore how best to improve arrangements for touring across Europe.

I can tell the noble Baroness, Lady Bonham-Carter, that there are no plans to rejoin Creative Europe, but we are working with the creative and cultural sectors to ensure that those world-leading sectors can continue to promote growth and enrich lives at home and abroad.

The noble Lord, Lord Ricketts, as well as the noble Lord, Lord Hannan, I think—I will check—were right to say, on inward mobility for artists, that the UK domestic rules allow musicians, entertainers, artists and their technical staff from non-visa national countries, such as EU and EEA nationals, to perform in the UK without requiring a visa. If I have got that wrong, I will write and put a copy of the letter in the Library, but I think that that is the situation at the moment.

The noble Lord, Lord Purvis, rightly challenged us on making Brexit work. There is no doubt that we will come back to the situation in a year or two. What we mean by making Brexit work is all the things that I have gone through—looking at whether we can deliver some of the outcomes that we would have been able to achieve within the EU from without it, and at whether we can generate that new EU security pact.

On China, the Government’s policy is one of co-operating, competing and challenging; again, we will see whether we can get the balance right between all those.

I will finish where I started by saying this to noble Lords, and to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, who proposed this important Motion: there will be individual debates and discussions between us about some of the challenges that noble Lords have raised, and I understand that people will be disappointed with some of the answers I have given with respect to mobility, and people will think that the Government have got it wrong, but let there be no doubt that we are now in a changed context and changed environment. We are now in a situation where we have a Government who are determined to rebuild our relationships with the EU and with Europe, and to co-operate, because we believe that that is in the best interests of our country to overcome common problems and challenges. By doing that, we will have a more prosperous future for our country, as well as benefitting Europe.

I finish by congratulating the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, on the Motion that she has introduced, which has allowed an important debate to take place. I wish my own Government well in resetting that relationship; it is crucial.

Combat Air Capability

Lord Coaker Excerpts

Thursday 10th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the United Kingdom’s future combat air capability.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Coaker) (Lab)]

My Lords, our assessment of the future combat air capability we require is informed by consideration of the future threat environment and strategic context. Consequently, the Global Combat Air Programme has been designed to utilise advanced capabilities, including next-generation sensors, weapons and data systems. Networked interoperability with allies and partners will be key. In the meantime, we continue to invest in our current fleet, which remains highly capable.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for that part-reassurance. The previous Government’s commitment to the Global Combat Air Programme—GCAP—was clear and we were doing it in partnership with Italy and Japan. However, with the best of intentions, the current Government’s position is opaque. Can the noble Lord at least reassure the House that the Government understand the need to plan now for a successor to Typhoon and the extent to which UK industry is supporting thousands of jobs across the UK—not least, for example, at Leonardo in Edinburgh—that depend on this programme proceeding?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

We certainly do understand that: 3,500 people are already employed in the development of this, £2 billion has already been invested in the research and development of the programme and further money will be invested, as we go forward. As the Prime Minister said a few weeks ago, the Global Combat Air Programme is “important” and

“we are making significant progress … There is … a review going on but … it is an important programme”.

I think that gives the reassurance that the noble Baroness is looking for.

[Lord Stirrup (CB)]

My Lords, as I highlighted in Grand Committee yesterday, on current plans, by 2040 the UK will be down to just three combat air squadrons. Irrespective of the debate over the type and nature of future platforms, would the Minister agree that this position is wholly untenable for any Government who care about the security of this country?

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

The noble and gallant Lord makes a good point. He is really referring to investment in our defence capabilities as we go forward. The review will look at the threats that we need to meet, but this Government have made an absolute commitment to go to 2.5% of GDP as soon as we can. I think that gives some reassurance to the noble and gallant Lord.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, we have two aircraft carriers, which will last for some 50 years. Will the Minister confirm that, in this package of air capability—which we absolutely need and do not have enough of—some aircraft will have the capability of operating from those carriers?

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

I certainly believe that the noble Lord is right to point out that, if we have aircraft carriers, we need aircraft to operate from them. I accept that. As far as the defence review is concerned, there is no doubt that we will look at the future capabilities we need, in respect of how those carriers are deployed and where they should be deployed, but also in respect of the necessary air combat power we need to meet the threats that the noble Lord will know well—as indeed will the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, it is indeed reassuring that His Majesty’s Government appear to be recommitting to GCAP but, like AUKUS, this agreement has been inherited from the previous Conservative Government. The allies, in this case, are Italy and Japan. Can the Minister tell us whether there is any scope for bringing in other partners and whether that would that help with resilience and interoperability with our NATO allies, for example?

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

As it stands, we are certainly sharing the costs with Italy and Japan, as the noble Baroness points out. Regarding other partners, we are considering that and discussions are taking place, without any firm commitment as it stands. Interoperability is key. She will know that Germany, France and Spain are also developing a sixth-generation fighter—SCAF—as is the United States. They are all part of NATO, so interoperability becomes essential.

[Lord Dannatt (CB)]

My Lords, while we accept that future generations of fast jet aircraft should be able to fly off aircraft carriers and fixed land bases, will the noble Lord accept that we also have land forces that need major investment? Will he also consider that going to just 2.5% of GDP is wholly inadequate and that the conversation should be about 3% or 3.5%?

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

The review will, of course, look at the necessary profile with respect to air, land, sea and intelligence and technology sharing. The Government have made an absolute commitment to 2.5% and are determined to deliver on that as soon as they can.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

My Lords, I did not quite hear the question from the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, on Japan, but does the Minister agree that the huge Tempest deal with Italy and Japan is very much at the centre of this whole issue and that it really is going forward in a positive way? This is a very crucial time, when our relations with Japan are much improved and with all sorts of plans ahead, and it would be fatal if this one had a wobble.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord; that is a good question. We have made as firm a commitment as we can, although I have said that it is also part of the ongoing review that the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, is undertaking. We have made a commitment to Italy and Japan and the noble Lord will know that the GCAP International Government Organisation was set up to run that programme. Its headquarters are in the UK. On 2 October, just a week or so ago, the King ratified the final part of the SI to ensure that the treaty was put in place. That shows that the Government are making progress with respect to the GCAP programme.

[Lord Craig of Radley (CB)]

My Lords, is the Minister satisfied that there are sufficient war stocks for our front-line aircraft at the present time?

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

The noble and gallant Lord will know that we have concerns about the supply of ammunition and missiles. That is why this Government are introducing a national armaments director and working with industry. We want to ensure that the stockpiles of weapons we have are replenishable quickly, and we will look to see whether we have the necessary quantity as well. That will also form part of the review led by the noble Lord, Lord Robertson.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, reports from Ukraine indicate the importance of drones. What are the Government doing to increase the capability of drones and to add them to the needs of the future, so that we can have many more of these smaller ones as well as the big ones that we often talk about?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

The noble Lord makes a really interesting point. That is the whole point of lessons learned from the conflict in respect of Ukraine, and that is part of what the review will look at. One thing that the noble Lord may pray in favour is the fact that the drones that Ukraine has used have, to an extent, neutralised the impact of the Black Sea fleet, and the Russian fleet has been driven back into port. That shows the utility of the use of drones. Of course, we need sixth-generation fighters and global combat air, but drones will form an important part of the weaponry that we need going forward to meet future threats.

[Baroness Foster of Aghadrumsee (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I am sure that the Minister will agree with me that we have an aerospace and defence industry in the United Kingdom to be proud of. Will he ensure that, when he is looking at air capability, he will bear in mind the totality of the United Kingdom, including of course Northern Ireland’s excellent aerospace industry?

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

The noble Baroness will know that I know Northern Ireland reasonably well and I have seen the fantastic skills base that Northern Ireland has. At the moment, as it stands, the particular emphasis in respect of the Global Combat Air Programme is that the main centres are in the south-west of England, Lancashire and Edinburgh. Of course, the spin-off from that is numerous small industries. We need to ensure that the growth agenda of this Government reaches all parts of the United Kingdom, including Northern Ireland, as the noble Baroness pointed out.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, manned aircraft require a supply of pilots. Is the Minister satisfied that sufficient resources are being made available to train the pilots of the future and that they are getting sufficient, real airtime in order to be effective?

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

The noble Lord knows that there have been problems with the training of pilots. That is partly the point of his question. The Government are looking at training and also at the recruitment and retention of all these particular skills, not just in respect of pilots but right across the Armed Forces. That is why this Government have launched a recruitment and retention review to see what we should do about it. Pilots will form an important part of that.

[Lord Lucas (Con)]

My Lords, given the drone capability we see daily in Ukraine, could not that be used to puncture people smugglers’ boats before they ever leave French shores?

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

Well, I do not know about that, but the use of drones will of course become increasingly important. With respect to the noble Lord’s suggestion, I am sure that people have heard it and will consider it in due course.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, is the Minister confident that we can keep one Vanguard submarine at sea at all times, given the strain there is on crew and our loss of crew because of the increasingly long time each mission has to take because of maintenance of the rest of the fleet?

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

This is a very important question and there should be no confusion here. The noble Lord is talking about the UK’s nuclear deterrent. That forms an important part of our deterrent. We are absolutely 100% certain that we will retain a constant at-sea nuclear deterrent presence. That needs to be heard from this Chamber and across the globe. There is no way that we will in any way allow our nuclear deterrent to be compromised. That needs to be heard loud and clear.

Strategic Defence Review

Lord Coaker Excerpts

Wednesday 9th October 2024 Grand Committee

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Coaker) (Lab)]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure for me to try to sum up all the incredible contributions that have been made. I am sure my noble friend Lord Robertson will have found the debate and discussion today helpful to his review. I will do my best to respond to the comments—and many of them were comments as much as questions. Obviously, I will review what was said and if there is a particular question or point that somebody has made that I have not answered, of course I will respond to that by letter and put a copy of that into the Library.

I start by saying to my noble friend, good luck. I speak now as an independent contributor to the review that he is undertaking, and it is important to note that it is an independent review. It is something that is particularly important to him and his fellow reviewers. I emphasise the point made by my noble friend, and indeed by the noble Baronesses, Lady Goldie and Lady Smith, and others, that it is an all-party review. It is a UK review, and that is why we have been especially keen to ensure that the support that my noble friend has had, and the different people who are advising him, represent a wide range of political opinion. It is in all our interests that this review is done correctly and comes to the right conclusions, for the benefit of our country and the benefit of the wider alliances that we support.

I also need to address the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith. This is slightly out of context, but it is really important for the people who read these deliberations. His Majesty’s Government have no intention whatever of relinquishing the sovereignty of the Falkland Islands, Gibraltar or the other overseas bases to which she referred. I put that firmly on the record, so there is no confusion about the position or policy of His Majesty’s Government. I want to emphasise it, because it is extremely important to have it on the record.

Let us address the issue of money. Numerous noble Lords have, quite rightly, made contributions about money, including the noble and gallant Lords, Lord Stirrup and Lord Houghton, the noble Lords, Lord Bilimoria and Lord Alderdice, my noble friend Lord West, the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Stuart, Lady Goldie and Lady Smith. The Government have an absolute commitment to 2.5%. I know that that is not what some people want to hear and that there is no timeline given to it, but there is an absolute commitment to 2.5%. It is not an aspiration. I know that the noble Baroness cited that and she will know that, at the recent NATO summit in Washington, the Prime Minister reiterated that commitment to 2.5%.

I know that, in the end, my noble friend Lord Robertson will wrestle with how to spend that, what the threats are and what capabilities are needed to address it. That is something that his review will have to address. That is the absolute commitment that the Government have made. People have made their views known on that and they will no doubt be considered.

I turn to some of the points on context, which was mentioned by a number of noble Lords, starting with the noble Lord, Lord Howell. In his introductory remarks, he talked about the increasing threats from Russia and China—as did other noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Walney, and the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard. Let us be absolutely clear about this. The NATO-first policy of the Government does not mean a retrenchment from the Indo-Pacific. Why would you sign up to AUKUS? Why would you see AUKUS as a completely important strategic part of what the UK is about if you are to retrench from the Indo-Pacific? Again, that will be in the context of an overall budget and the conclusions that the review comes to, but AUKUS is really important. Other noble Lords made the point—including the noble Lord, Lord Walney, very effectively—that not only pillar 1 but pillar 2 are important, as well as all the other things that the noble Lord mentioned. My noble friend Lord West knows this: why would we send a carrier strike group to the Indo-Pacific next year—2025—if we are going to withdraw from the Indo-Pacific and if it was not still important to us?

The noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, made a very powerful comment about the Indo-Pacific and that context. I say to him: all our allies and friends in that region, having been consulted and discussed this, know what that carrier strike group should do and where it should go. We will do that with our allies. That is a really important statement about where we are. Of course Ukraine and NATO are a priority for us, but the Indo-Pacific and other areas of the world remain important.

I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Stuart, we had a meeting and conference with Norway at RUSI, where I spoke, about the very issues that she quite rightly referred to on the High North—although not the Antarctic—and the way in which climate change is opening it up and increasing the threats from Russia and China. I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, that if she reads the terms of reference for the strategic defence review, it has climate change in paragraph 1, so give credit where credit is due. It may not give the answers that the noble Baroness wants, but in the first paragraph it recognises that climate change may impact on security.

Again, as the noble Baroness, Lady Stuart, said, climate change opens up the world. As I was reminded when I looked at a map, the reason it opens up the world—not only to Russia but to China—is because you have to think of the world as round. So that means that they can come over the top. I know it sounds ridiculous, but I thought that China was 7,000 or 8,000 miles away, because I was thinking of the world as flat. We have to think of the earth as round. The serious point is that climate change makes China thousands of miles nearer to the Arctic in a way that it was not before. That is a really important consideration. The strategic interests that my noble friend Lord Robertson’s review will have to reflect on are not only in the Indo- Pacific but in the High North.

The noble Lord, Lord Howell, and others were right to point out that, of course, this means: what do we do about the global South? What do we do about the issues with respect to non-aligned countries, many of which are in the global South? We like to think that everyone supports us with respect to Ukraine—that is of course important when we consider the international rules-based order and all the other things about the rule of law and so on—but, actually, there is work to be done with respect to non-aligned nations; the noble Lord, Lord Howell, was quite right to mention that. Again, we will have to consider how we influence those nations alongside our long-standing ally, the United States, as the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, said. I am proud to say that there is a special relationship between us; it is a very important relationship, and one that includes the nuclear deterrent, which is absolutely fundamental to the posture of this Government.

In answer to the noble Baroness’s specific question, there will be a debate on the UK-US treaty on Wednesday 23 October. I look forward to explaining fully the reasons why we have decided to make it an indefinite arrangement rather than the particular arrangement that we have at present. I am not sure of the noble Baroness’s diary but maybe she will be able to find time to be with us there.

The noble and gallant Lord, Lord Houghton, made some really good points about the strategic objectives that we want. He said that the necessity for the review to deliver on what we decide strategically is really important; I could not agree more.

A number of noble Lords—the noble Lords, Lord Alderdice, Lord Howell, Lord De Mauley and Lord Mountevans—mentioned homeland security and civil defence. They will notice that, in terms of what the review will cover, homeland security is specifically mentioned. I mention my declared interest to the noble Lord, Lord De Mauley: my son-in-law is an active member of the reserves in 4 Mercian, so I recognise the importance of the reserves. We need to consider how to deal with them.

A number of noble Lords mentioned defence. One of the reasons why the Government will have a national armaments director is that we clearly need to look at how we can build our defence industrial capability to meet the threats of the future. That means not only what we do but how we work with allies in order to achieve this.

A number of other points were made but I just want to say something about the new threats we will face; these were mentioned by the noble Lords, Lord Alderdice, Lord Howell, Lord De Mauley and Lord Kerr, among others. They are really important and will be part of this. Where do we go with artificial intelligence? Where do we go to with automated air systems and drones? It is about all these sorts of things. How new warfare and the lessons that we are having to learn from Ukraine will impact on what our defence posture should be are really important things for all of us to consider.

A number of noble Lords—including, I think, the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig—mentioned recruitment and the retention of personnel. A review of those issues and how we can improve on them is going on.

In conclusion, the first duty of the Government is to keep our country safe. We all agree with that. The discussion, debate and challenge for us all concerns how we do that in the most effective way. Let us make no mistake: the UK is a proud country, and we stand with our allies—those in Europe, obviously, but across the globe as well—in standing up for the principles of freedom, democracy, the rule of law and the international rules-based order, as we always have done. At the moment, there is a challenge to those principles. I think we should be proud of the fact that our country, alongside our allies—including those new and fresh allies to be made—is standing up to that challenge. We are looking at how we can achieve that, standing, as I say, with our friends. We will require the review from the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, to help us to deliver that, but we can be proud of the fact that we can do it and proud that, as a democracy, we are openly debating how to develop the Armed Forces we need in order to achieve it.

King’s Speech

Lord Coaker Excerpts

Thursday 25th July 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Coaker) (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, for winding up for the Liberal Democrats and the noble Lord, Lord Benyon, for winding up for His Majesty’s Opposition.

Before we begin, I will say that we will all have been shocked to learn of the soldier who was attacked in uniform earlier this week in Kent. Our thoughts are with him and his family at this time. My department is working closely with Kent Police to support their investigations, and I am sure we all send our best wishes to the soldier and his family.

Today’s debate concludes six days of debate on His Majesty’s gracious Speech. I have not read every word, but most of what I have read has been informed by the insight and wisdom of your Lordships’ House.

I apologise if I do not respond to every single question today. Obviously, I will write where appropriate, as I have already said to one noble Baroness, but it might be appropriate if in September I hold a meeting where people can come and see where we have got to on particular points they have made that they feel may not have been taken forward as much as possible—and, indeed, where sometimes I may have to go to find further information out. If we do that, we have had a good debate but we have also seen how we can more effectively inform government policy, even perhaps sometimes where we obviously disagree. That is an offer that I make to noble Lords as we go forward.

I also thank my predecessors. The noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, is here and spoke with customary wisdom and insight. It has been a privilege working with her and I know we will continue working together in different ways. Will she pass on my best wishes to the noble Earl, Lord Minto, who cannot be with us today? In the work I am doing in the department, I am building on the foundations that they laid, in the very office that they were in. Certainly, I will build on that.

To answer one of the noble Baroness’s questions on international development and the White Paper she referred to, it is our intention to take that forward and we are looking at how we might do that. On the clean power alliance, we will bring together a coalition of countries at the cutting edge of climate action. Again, we will ensure that we are doing everything we can to take that forward.

I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, for her customary courtesy and the remarks she made, in particular about SMEs and opportunity. I say to her that SMEs have every possibility of contributing to the SDR with my noble friend Lord Robertson. I hope that she could put that to her contacts.

I hope that noble Lords opposite can pass on my thanks to the noble Lords, Lord Cameron and Lord Ahmad, who was here earlier in the debate. He was a template for how to operate in your Lordships’ House. I know he will contribute in other ways, but I think it would be appropriate if that was passed on. I will endeavour to replicate his openness and courtesy.

Today’s debate shows that we have some differences, but we are all united in the defence of freedom, democracy, human rights and the international rules-based order. We will defend that, with our allies in Europe and across the globe. One thing that should come from this debate today is that, whatever questions we have about government policy with respect to particular regions or aspects of defence, the world and our allies should know, in Europe and beyond, that this country stands firm in the defence of those values and we will work with others to defend them, as we should.

Our country has demonstrated this just recently. Sometimes in our debates, we forget the fact that our democracy is shown as an example of how power changes hands through a vote, with one Government being replaced by another. For all we have discussed in this House today, we should be thankful for that democracy, often won through war and through the defence of those freedoms, as many noble Lords will know better than me. We should reflect on that today and be proud of the example we set across the world.

I say to the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury, that that should not be lost. One of the things we stand for is religious freedom across the world—the Archbishop reminded us of this in his remarks—not just for a Church of England or a Christian faith, but for faiths united across the world. That was a very important contribution that the most reverend Primate made to the debate, supported of course by his colleague, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Winchester, who worked on earlier reports as Bishop of Truro and now as Bishop of Winchester. They both made really significant contributions, and it is important we remember all of that.

I will also just say to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Worcester, who made his valedictory speech, that the contributions he has made have been welcomed by all in your Lordships’ House. I wish him well in whatever comes. In his contribution—and a number of other noble Lords mentioned this, including the noble Lord, Lord Purvis—he mentioned the importance of spending 0.7% on international development. He will know, as others will, that this Government have an objective of getting back to 0.7% as soon as we fiscally can. That is the aim of this Government.

The first duty of any Government is to keep the country safe. I pay tribute to the brave men and women of our Armed Forces, our veterans, and the families who support them. Theirs is the ultimate public service. As noble Lords have debated on many occasions, and as the Defence Secretary set out in the Commons last week, these are serious and challenging times. This Parliament meets at a moment when there is war in Europe, conflict in the Middle East, growing Russian aggression and increasing global threats. The conventional and hybrid threats we face from hostile states have continued to grow and morph. Our institutions, public services, businesses and universities, and our very democracy, have faced a growing barrage of cyberattacks and disinformation. The darkening global landscape requires us to be focused and determined as a Government, and it requires Britain to stay strong and connected.

We started by talking about the SDR. Last week, the Prime Minister launched a root and branch strategic defence review to make Britain secure at home and strong abroad. It will be overseen by the Defence Secretary and led, as we have heard, by the former NATO Secretary-General, the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, a Member of this House, supported by General Sir Richard Barrons and Dr Fiona Hill. It will be delivered at pace, reporting in the first half of 2025, with work starting immediately, in recognition of the urgency of the threats facing the UK. We have tasked it to consider those threats—the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, raised this—as well as the capabilities we need to address them and the state of our Armed Forces and the resources available.

This is to be Britain’s review, not just the Government’s. We will consult widely across the defence community and are keen that everyone who wants to, including every Member of this House, can contribute should they wish. It would be nonsense for us not to draw on the expertise and experience of this House. As the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Houghton, reminded us, this review gives us a real opportunity to move forward, to take stock of where we are, to look at the threats that have emerged from Ukraine and elsewhere, and to move on from that.

As the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, said, we need to address the changing face of warfare—to address not last the last war but the next war. We need to be strong and determined in finding a way to meet those threats; that is in all our interests. The noble and gallant Lord, Lord Peach—I know he had to apologise for leaving—pointed out that we need to learn the lessons of Ukraine now. The noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, mentioned the technologies of the future, artificial intelligence and where that will take us. We need to understand all of that. The noble Lord, Lord Howell, said that we need to protect that, in an appropriate way, from those who would look at it and do us harm. But that should not stop us trying to take that forward.

I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith—although this was raised by a number of other noble Lords—that the nuclear deterrent remains sacrosanct within that review, and we and those who listen to our debates should remember that. The noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, mentioned AUKUS, which remains sacrosanct within that. It is an important alliance for us and we will take it forward, as well, obviously, as our support for Ukraine. We also mentioned the global combat aircraft, and I repeated the Government’s position that we continue to progress on that. But, alongside all these programmes, my noble friend’s strategic defence review will take place. That gives us the opportunity to move forward.

We talked about defence spending, and in his excellent speech, the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, rightly challenged the Government. So did the noble Baronesses, Lady Goldie and Lady Smith, my noble friend Lord West, the noble Lords, Lord Empey and Lord Robathan, and many others. But we are determined, and it is a tough choice to say, “We will do what is fiscally responsible. We will do what we think we are able to do”. So, we have made a cast-iron commitment to move to 2.5% of GDP. I know everyone will then say, “Why don’t you make it 3%? Why not 3.2%?” We are being fiscally responsible, saying we will operate on the basis of 2.5% of GDP. But the crucial point is that we want the SDR to tell us where that money should be spent and what capabilities we should use to meet the threats as we go forward.

It seems to me to be common sense that if you have a review that is telling you what you need to develop and what you need to spend your money on to meet those threats, you wait for that review to start to tell you the answers to those questions rather than your Lordships coming to me in a year, two years, three years or four years, asking, “Why have you spent money on a project that doesn’t meet the threats that this country faces?” That is the argument that the Government are making. It is not trying to delay or fudge; it is not trying to pull the wool over anybody’s eyes. It is simply saying that we want to move forward in way that is acceptable.

Many of your Lordships have raised Ukraine and NATO. Again, we have laid out our position time and again, and we are grateful for the support from His Majesty’s Opposition with respect to Ukraine. As many noble Lords have pointed out, the front line of our defence of freedom as it stands is what is happening with respect to Ukraine. That is why the Prime Minister, the Defence Secretary and so many senior members of government and senior politicians from across this Parliament have gone to Ukraine, spoken to Ukrainians and supported them with respect to the war that they are fighting. It needs to be said again and again to the British people—not just to the British politicians but to the people of this country and Europe and freedom-loving peoples across the world—that the defence of what they enjoy is taking place in Ukraine. That is why the announcement of £3 billion every year to continue to support them is very important.

A number of your Lordships, including the noble Lords, Lord Jay and Lord Jopling, and many others, talked about the importance of the United States and NATO. The United States is crucial to us. Whoever the American President is, we will need to try to work with them in the defence of the things that are important to us. That is the history that we have, and it will be the history that we need to take forward. It is a matter for the American people who that person is, but we will need to work with them, whoever it is. The one calculation that Putin made when he attacked Ukraine was that NATO would fracture, splinter and disappear, but he got it wrong, because rather than it weakening NATO, it strengthened it. Who would have predicted Sweden and Finland joining? But they did. They did it not as an aggressive act—NATO is not an aggressive alliance; it is a defensive one, and we should be proud that NATO is standing tall for the freedoms and liberties that we all stand for.

NATO is really effective. It highlights many of the defensive alliances that we have across the world. Many of your Lordships have raised alliances, including the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, and the noble Lords, Lord Stone, Lord Newby, Lord St John, Lord Swire and Lord Bilimoria. We cannot defend those alliances and the freedoms that I have been speaking about without our allies, not just in Europe but across the world, or tackle issues in the Indo-Pacific and with respect to China, as mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Alton, on many occasions.

I say to the noble Lord that I do not know fully exactly what the Government are now doing with respect to Hikvision. I will have a look at that and write to him. I will find that out and put it in the Library, because the noble Lord has raised it on numerous occasions. He will know that the Government’s policy is to co-operate, to challenge and to—I have forgotten the third one; whatever the third one is. My noble friend cannot remember either. I shall have a look and tell you before the end.

[Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)]

Compete.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

It is to compete. To co-operate with, challenge and compete with China is essential. The important point that I want to make to the noble Lord, Lord Alton, is that obviously we will compete with them, and obviously we will co-operate, but we will challenge and we will stand up to China where necessary with respect to freedoms in Hong Kong and calling for the release of people as appropriate. I say that to him, because I know that he cares deeply and represents an opinion. But the “challenge” bit is really important.



With respect to the Middle East, which is of incredible importance to all of that, within a fortnight of being appointed, our Foreign Secretary travelled to Israel and to the Occupied Palestinian Territories to play our part in efforts towards long-term peace and security in the Middle East. We are calling for an immediate ceasefire, the immediate release of all hostages and the protection of civilians, as well as the unfettered access that is needed to increase humanitarian aid into Gaza rapidly. The Foreign Secretary met families of hostages, including those with links to the UK, and he announced a further £5.5 million this year to fund the charity UK-Med’s life-saving work.

UNRWA has been fully funded, or the funding has been restored. I will just say to the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, that we have been assured by the UN that the concerns that were raised, and the very serious matters raised with respect to employees’ involvement in the attacks on 7 October, have been dealt with.

I say to the noble Lord, Lord Leigh, that there is no equivalence between Hamas and the Israeli Government. That is our position, as it was the position of the last Government. I know that the noble Lord is, rightly, extremely exercised about that—but I say clearly again, because I know that it is of immense importance to him and to lots of other Members of your Lordships’ House, that there is no equivalence. I am sorry for repeating that, but it is really important. There is no equivalence between Hamas and the Israeli Government, and I hope that that reassures him and reassures many of the people he speaks to with respect to that.

As I said, we need a further meeting. There are many other points of principle that need to be discussed, not least the point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, about women, the work that she has been doing in Brazil and our attendance at the summit. That point about violence against women and girls is absolutely fundamental to everything that we do. Other noble Lords made points about the importance of the Commonwealth, and the various conferences coming up with respect to that are really important as well.

I conclude by saying that our debate reflects a startling global landscape and many complex and urgent challenges. We are living in an increasingly volatile and dangerous age, with rapidly evolving technology, which is simultaneously being used to undermine us and make us stronger. While the landscape is dark, the future is bright. I know that the wisdom in this House will be a valuable asset to the Government as we reconnect with our allies, forge new partnerships and advance our progressive values, upholding human rights and international law at home and abroad and delivering security and prosperity for Britain and its allies. That is something that we have done throughout our history, of which we are all proud and in which we are all united. That is the message that is to be heard from this Chamber today—so let it ring out to freedom-loving peoples across Europe and the rest of the world. We will never stand idly by as those treasured freedoms are challenged. With our allies across the globe, we will defend them and deter aggression. In that effort, all of us from every corner of this Chamber are united, and that should be heard loud and clear.

Motion agreed nemine dissentiente, and the Lord Chamberlain was ordered to present the Address to His Majesty.

Ministry of Defence: Expenditure

Lord Coaker Excerpts

Thursday 25th July 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie]

To ask His Majesty’s Government whether they have made any decisions to pause expenditure on Ministry of Defence programmes; and, if so, on which programmes.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Coaker) (Lab)]

Work continues on our programmes within existing allocated funding as the strategic review progresses. This review will consider the threats Britain faces, the capabilities needed to meet them, the state of the UK Armed Forces and the resources available. It will set out a deliverable and affordable plan for defence.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I thank the Minister and congratulate him on his appointment, and welcome him to the Front Bench. My Question was predicated on an already stretched defence budget and government opaqueness about the future. The commitment to spend 2.5% of GDP is very welcome, but we do not know when—it is jam for an uncertain tomorrow. The Leader of the House, the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, said to this Chamber on Tuesday evening, referring to the strategic defence review, expected to report early next year, that it

“will inform how the amount is reached”.—[Official Report, 23/7/24; col. 424.]

The noble Lord, Lord Robertson, is deserving of much admiration, but his expertise is defence, not macroeconomics and certainly not Treasury fiscal wizardry. This is the Government’s most important responsibility; we have to stop pussyfooting around. How can there be any informed strategic defence review when the chief reviewer has not been told what the budget he is working on is?

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her welcome to the post; it is an honour to follow her, as well as the noble Earl, Lord Minto. We have made a clear commitment to 2.5%, and the timetable for that will be announced at a future fiscal event. Alongside that, as the noble Baroness will know, the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, is conducting the review. As we think is important, the noble Lord will come forward with the capabilities needed to meet the threats of the future, and then we will know what we should be spending the money on, rather than just flying blind, without any idea as to the threats we will face and the capabilities needed to meet them.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

On a much narrower point, where do we stand on the order for the fleet solid support ships, bearing in mind the dreadful financial position of Harland & Wolff?

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

The noble Lord will know that the situation with respect to the Belfast shipyard and Harland & Wolff is a difficult one. Our expectation is that those ships will be able to be built. Clearly, the company is looking for a private sector business to support it, and we will look to do what we can to support it in that.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, is the Minister able to reassure the House, and perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, that this is intended to be a defence-led review, not a Treasury-led review? If the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, and his colleagues in the review find that expenditure needs to be not a vague 2.5% at a certain point but 3% or more, would His Majesty’s Government be willing to spend whatever is necessary?

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her question. I think she slightly gets in front of herself. We have made a commitment to 2.5%, and that is a cast-iron guarantee. The noble Lord, Lord Robertson, is in his place and has heard the points she has made. We look forward to a deliverable, affordable plan that will meet the threats we will face in the future—not the threats now or in the past, but in the future. That is why the review of the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, is so important. The money that we spend has to be spent to deliver the capabilities needed to meet those threats. That is the fundamental principle that underlies what we are doing, and it will be maintained.

[Lord Stirrup (CB)]

My Lords, we are still awaiting the outcome of the review, and in the light of the undoubted financial pressures it faces, can the Minister assure the House that his department will not view as easy options for in-year savings levels of training upon which military capability so crucially depends, and the adequate maintenance of infrastructure, which is already in a poor condition and is an important factor in the retention of experienced personnel?

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

The noble and gallant Lord makes an important point. Of course there are competing pressures on any budget, whatever its size, but infrastructure—the hangars, runways and accommodation—is an important consideration. He also makes a point about the level of skills training. He will know, as will many Members in this House, that there are serious skills shortages in all the Armed Forces, and we face a challenge to meet the requirements we have because of that skills shortage. Skills training, accommodation and infrastructure will play an important part in any review that the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, conducts.

[Lord Swire (Con)]

My Lords, the Minister does his job extremely well. Can he clarify whether the Government are still fully behind the Storm Shadow missile programme? Will he use this opportunity to clarify whether those Storm Shadow missiles will be deployable within Russia?

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

We are of course committed to the Storm Shadow programme. As the Prime Minister has made clear, under Article 51 of the UN charter Ukraine has a clear right of self-defence against Russia’s illegal attacks. That does not preclude striking military targets inside Russia, provided strikes comply with the law of armed conflict and international humanitarian law. As the Prime Minister said, it would be inappropriate to go into the operational detail of how Ukraine uses UK-provided systems. I should say to the noble Lord that that is exactly the same policy that the previous Government pursued.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords, is it not the case that we need a proper plan so that we do not end up having aircraft carriers without planes? Is it not about time that we plan for the future, rather than wait for it to happen?

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

I thank my noble friend for his important question. Whether it is aircraft carriers and planes, the number of soldiers, technology or other capabilities, you have to have the capability you need to meet the threat that you face. My noble friend is right to point that out. That is the fundamental principle that underlies the review of the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, and why he will be working closely with others. I say to all noble Lords that it is an open review and anyone is welcome to contribute to it.

[Lord Houghton of Richmond (CB)]

Does the Minister agree that, at this moment, the Government should remain open-minded on all areas of discretionary defence spending that do not directly contribute to keeping Ukraine in the fight and restoring the credibility of deterrence in Europe?

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

Of course we should remain open to any capability that is necessary. The noble and gallant Lord makes a very important point. We are open to all these considerations and factors in the defence of Ukraine, but also in the wider security picture that we face across the globe. No doubt that will be something that the review takes forward. I would welcome the noble and gallant Lord’s contribution to that review, to make the very point that he has just made.

[Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as director of the Army Reserve. The Public Accounts Committee identified a black hole of some £16.9 billion in our capital programme. That sounds a lot, but over 10 years it is actually less than 5% of the programme and manageable. However, as night follows day, there will be deferrals or cancellations of capital projects within the MoD. Normally, it is the smaller, short-term projects that are deferred or cancelled, as opposed to larger, long-term projects. In order to meet the Chief of the General Staff’s aim of doubling the lethality of the British Army in the next three years, it is these very short-term, small projects that are required. When it comes to the balance of investments, will this desire be taken into account?

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for his question and for all the work he does in his position outside this House. He makes an important point. For me, it is not whether it is a small capital project or a large capital project; the important point is how it contributes to the lethality of our forces and how it contributes to us defending not only our country but freedom and democracy across the world. Whether it is a small project, a medium-sized project or a large project, its utility should be decided on that basis. The noble Lord makes a very important point, and I will make sure it is taken into consideration.

[Viscount Trenchard (Con)]

My Lords, the change of Government has already resulted in a delay to the announcement of the location of the joint government headquarters for the trilateral British, Japanese and Italian fighter jet project, GCAP. Is it true that this project is now dependent on the result of the strategic defence review, or has the Minister been able to give reassurance to the visitors at the Farnborough airshow this week, including the Japanese Defence Minister, that it will go ahead regardless?

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

The noble Lord will have heard what I said. Not only did I give reassurance to Italy and Japan and our defence companies at Farnborough, I hosted a reception for all those partners last night in your Lordships’ House. It was very well received. We reassured people that work continues on that project, alongside the fact that the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, is conducting a review that will look at the defence programme across the piece. They were very pleased with what I had to say, and I spent my time reassuring them, here in your Lordships’ House.

Tempest Global Combat Air Programme

Lord Coaker Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd July 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord West of Spithead]

To ask His Majesty’s Government whether the Tempest Global Combat Air Programme will be halted until the Strategic Defence Review is completed and its future decided.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Coaker) (Lab)]

No, GCAP will not be halted, in answer to my noble friend. Progress continues. I met partners yesterday at Farnborough, as did the Prime Minister, emphasising its importance. The Defence Secretary met Ministers from Italy and Japan today to discuss developments, including economic growth and skills, and business will be taken through by SI in the next few days, subject to Parliament’s agreement, to implement the GCAP convention.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

I thank my noble friend the Minister for his Answer. Of course, I understand that the mechanism of this programme has to move ahead, not least for diplomatic and political reasons, but would he assure me that, in the context of the strategic defence review, nothing is off the table, apart from the fact that we maintain a nuclear deterrent? That was what was said, effectively—so everything will be looked at. There must be serious concerns about the operational requirement for this system, which is not clearly articulated. How many platforms will be required, finally, and how many aircraft? That is not articulated. The costs are pretty open, I have to say, and it really does need to be looked at.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his important Question. The strategic defence review is a root-and-branch review to look at the capabilities that our Armed Forces will need as they meet the threats of a changing world. It will look at defence in the round—and, of course, it will look at programmes across the whole of defence. Can I just pick up on one point from my noble friend? As he says, in the review we do emphasise the importance of the deterrent as well as support for Ukraine and AUKUS.

[Lord Stirrup (CB)]

With the global combat air programme, will due weight be accorded to the importance of breaking into the Japanese defence programme for the first time in any substantial way, with the associated financial and technological benefits that will bring and the linkages it will create in a crucial strategic area?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

I thank the noble and gallant Lord for his question and thank him in anticipation of the sorts of thoughtful comments that he will make and the help that he will give to me and others as we seek to defend our country in the best possible way. He makes a really important point on the GCAP. It is an important alliance between Japan, Italy and ourselves that gives us the opportunity to work with Japan and others—but in particular Japan—to develop that technological progress and partnership, which will be so important as we take this programme forward.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

I declare my interests as in the register. Would the Minister agree that, recently, Japanese industry and its economy and the British economy have been getting on extremely well, with increased co-operation—much better than way back before the Brexit interruption? Would he agree that the sources of our biggest productivity increases of the past 50 years were when we were getting massive Japanese investment in the 1970s and 1980s? In the light of both those thoughts, does he accept that we must be very careful in continuing this progress and doing nothing impetuous that undermines the close co-operation that the Japanese want to have with us and are seeking in many other areas as well?

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

As I said in answer to the question from the noble and gallant Lord—and the noble Lord makes the point for himself—the relationship between ourselves and Japan is extremely important. The technological advantage that both the UK and Japan get from our close partnership is extremely important. As I said in answer to the original Question, progress continues on the GCAP with the other partner, Italy. A strategic defence review will look at all the various programmes, but progress continues.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, I welcome the noble Lord to his place. When he and I sat on adjacent Benches, we tended to agree. I always had the benefit of being able to piggyback on his comments before I asked my questions, so I very much hope that we will continue to agree across the Chamber. The only slight problem this afternoon is that, in answering the Question from the noble Lord, Lord West, he took away all the questions I was going to ask about diplomatic relations with Italy and Japan by giving an answer that I think is welcome. On the review, we clearly need to think about diplomatic questions and questions about our defence industrial base. While the defence review is going on, what security are His Majesty’s Government giving to defence contractors that the work being undertaken on various programmes will continue? Clearly, not just our international partners but defence contractors will be concerned.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

I very much hope that the noble Baroness and I can carry on working together. Without being pompous about it, all of us across this Chamber share an interest in the defence of our country and in freedom and democracy across Europe and the world. Working together is extremely important. On her question about the defence industry, she may have seen that yesterday the Prime Minister announced Skills England, which will work with the defence industry and defence companies to overcome one of the biggest hurdles this country faces: the skills shortage, which we have been trying to overcome for a number of years. Redoubling our efforts on that will make a huge difference—but that is just one example of how we intend to work with the industry.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, is there not a great risk that the sixth-generation jet fighter will be yet another white elephant, with escalating costs that will completely distort the defence budget—very similar to the aircraft carriers ordered by the noble Lord, Lord West?

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

Of course, the defence review will look at defence in the round, but it is really important that this country looks at what the next generation fighter should be. That is an important step. Looking back in history, the Typhoon was at one time a project on a research board and, before that, it was the Tornado. If memory serves me correctly, the Phantom was the fighter programme before that. Our industry and research programmes are the envy of the world. Of course these programmes need to come in on budget, make sense and meet the threats of the future, but looking at what the global combat aircraft of the future should be is an important part of any defence review.

[Lord Craig of Radley (CB)]

My Lords, the Prime Minister must have selected his words extremely carefully when he spoke at Farnborough yesterday, but the press coverage in this country as a result of the interpretation of what he said has been depressing, to say the least. What reaction have the Government had from Japanese and Italian partners to what the Prime Minister said yesterday?

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

I certainly know that everyone has been reassured by the Prime Minister and others saying that progress on these programmes will continue. The Global Combat Air Programme continues as we speak. As I said to my noble friend Lord West, the defence review will look at defence in the round, but we will not allow it to paralyse any work that is going on with respect to defence. We are looking at it all in the round, as the noble and gallant Lord would expect, so that we get value for money, deal with some of the problems we have had and get the capabilities we need to tackle the threats that we are going to face in future.

[Lord Udny-Lister (Con)]

Would the Minister advise us on what discussions are taking place to find additional money for the Tempest programme, as even the partnership with Japan and Italy will not be sufficient to finance a project of this scale and further finance will be needed?

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

Let me just say to the noble Lord that congratulations are due, to an extent, on the work of the previous Government. So far, £1.8 billion has been spent on GCAP and £600 million of that has come from private industry. That is quite a successful way of ensuring that government and industry can work together in the furtherance of the defence of our nation.

Ukraine and Georgia

Lord Coaker Excerpts

Thursday 16th May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, I begin with the important repetition of our ongoing support for the Government regarding Ukraine and our shared deep concern with respect to events in Georgia, which represent an attack on the freedoms of civil society and an intimidation of protesters. Can the noble Earl assure us that we will continue to pressure the Georgian Government and make representations to their ambassador here? On Ukraine, the crucial question is how we are going to accelerate the provision of air defences, artillery shells and other equipment to the front line in the face of the Russian assault. Ukraine must be able to defend itself, including in Kharkiv, as we have all said. Its fight is our fight, but it needs more support quickly.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (The Earl of Minto) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his support in all that we are doing in Ukraine. The Government and, indeed, the whole House continue strongly to condemn the appalling, illegal and unprovoked attack that President Putin has launched on the people of Ukraine. We continue to monitor developments on the ground very closely, but our steadfast support for Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity is unwavering. That is why the Prime Minister has announced £500 million in additional funding, which takes us to £3 billion of military aid this year. This level of funding will last until the end of the decade and for as long as it is required. While Georgia and Ukraine are separate geopolitical issues, the Georgian people know all too well the proven aggression of Putin—in fact, they have only to look back to 2008. That is why we must support Ukraine for as long as it takes.

Royal Navy: Climate Change Training

Lord Coaker Excerpts

Thursday 14th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for that extremely valid point. She is right that we need to learn from our experience. The Navy in particular is building in adaptability to all future platforms to ensure flexibility of fuel sources and all energy-efficient technologies wherever possible.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, following on from the noble Baroness’s question, Lieutenant General Richard Nugee warned that global warming may affect the Royal Navy’s technical capabilities. He warned that rising sea temperatures might make it difficult for ships to cool their engines as they rely on cold seawater. It would be helpful if the Minister could provide an update on what assessment has been made by the Ministry of Defence of the impact that rising sea temperatures have had or could have on the technical efficacy of Royal Navy ships.

Red Sea Telecommunication Cables

Lord Coaker Excerpts

Thursday 14th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, the speed of that acquisition is a fantastic example of how when procurement goes right, the agility and ability to acquire, equip and train crews to man these sorts of vehicles is comfortably within our capability. I do not know precisely when the next ship is due to come, and I will write to my noble friend with that information.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

What assessment have the Government made of the impacts of the cuts to these telecommunications cables on the telecommunications traffic from Asia to Europe or whatever? What are they going to do specifically to protect the workers needed to fix those cables?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

The noble Lord makes a good point. On the whole, the cables themselves are not fixed but replaced. It is too dangerous and time-consuming to replace them because of the depth they are at and the danger from shipping. These are commercial decisions, and there are commercial sensitivities that we really cannot go into. Suffice it to say that we are acutely aware of what the risk might be in this area.

UK Armed Forces

Lord Coaker Excerpts

Tuesday 12th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, how will the state of the UK Armed Forces be helped by the cuts to defence spending announced in the Budget? Table 2.1 in the Red Book shows defence resource spending cut from £35 billion in 2023-24 to £32.8 billion in 2024-25, and table 2.2 shows defence capital spending cut from £19.2 billion in 2023-34 to £18.9 billion in 2024-25. How on earth does that defence spending cut help the state of our Armed Forces?

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (The Earl of Minto) (Con)]

My Lords, I will say something about the Armed Forces to start off with. Our Armed Forces are, at all times, ready to protect and defend the UK. We continue to meet all operational commitments, including supporting Ukraine in the face of Putin’s illegal and unjust invasion and tackling Houthi aggression in the Red Sea. The Royal Navy contributes 25% of NATO’s maritime strength, which has four times as many ships and three times as many submarines as Russia. The RAF has greater lift capacity than at any time since the Second World War. The Army was globally deployed in 67 countries last year, with 14,000 troops deployed on exercises and operations across Europe. We are rightly proud of all their efforts.

On the money side, I have gone into this in quite some detail, and it is the difference between budget and outturn. Budget is a figure struck at the beginning of the financial year, and outturn is what actually gets spent by the end of the financial year. In 2023-24, the budget was £51.4 billion and the outturn was £54.2 billion. This year, the budget is £51.7 billion and the outturn is £55.6 billion—a 1.8% increase of £1.4 billion.