Asylum: UK-Rwanda Agreement

Lord Carlile of Berriew Excerpts

Monday 22nd January 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter. She spoke with calm authority, derived not least from being the former chair of the committee whose report we are considering, and her words should be hearkened to strongly.

It has been a long debate and I will not repeat—I promise—what everyone else has said. I commend the Government and the Government of Rwanda for going through the process of discussing and reaching a treaty. The problem about that achievement is that it is only the beginning of a process and not the process itself. Indeed, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, in his excellent opening, explained that. He explained the role of the committee and the point of the committee. To use a metaphor, if the treaty does not have safe foundations, the skyscraper that is built upon it will become catastrophic. If the foundations are not solid, we should not allow that catastrophe to occur. The committee has found that the foundations are not solid.

In reality, are there not three steps that have to be taken? First, there has to be a treaty. The treaty is considered by the committee chaired by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith. Secondly, if it passes the test of the committee, then it is legitimate for there to be a parliamentary Bill, which goes through its normal steps in both Houses. Thirdly, there is to be an effective law if the Bill is passed, which falls within the standards of our jurisdiction—of fairness, administrative sense and justiciability—without court proceedings being excluded under what are entirely artificial, uncomfortable and unfamiliar processes. The three steps I have described are not, to coin a phrase, three steps to heaven; they are three steps to law, and each one can only be mounted when the other one has successfully been trod upon.

It is noticeable that there have been seven speeches from the Cross Benches in this debate. As a former member of a political party—and I apologise for the umpteenth time to its members for being here, but they do not mind really—I can tell your Lordships that, unlike the political parties, there is absolutely no homogeneity about the Cross Benches; there is not that much homogeneity about some of the political parties either. You have heard seven speeches from the Cross Benches today, from noble Lords who have a wide range of experience and bring it to bear in the debate, that have all come broadly to the same conclusion. Some of that experience was spoken of by the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, who referred to one experience he had as Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation.

I had another experience, which I think is instructive. In 2007, the then Government asked me to prepare on report on counterterrorism law in the United Kingdom. I did a great deal of research on black-letter counterterrorism law in other countries, and I went to one of them—a Commonwealth country—that had, and still has, excellent black-letter law, to deliver a seminar to judges who tried terrorism cases. At the beginning of the seminar, I asked, “How many of you have tried terrorism cases?”, and they all put their hands up. I then asked, “How many of you have seen a conviction in a terrorism case?”, and none of them put their hands up. That is a demonstration of how we can think we have achieved a solution through black-letter law in our system, but I am afraid that, in that country, there was a degree of manipulation and corruption of the judiciary that meant the right conclusions were never reached.

At the moment, we have not proved to the requisite standard—and I would suggest that should be beyond reasonable doubt—that Rwanda is a safe country for a law founded on this treaty. I will borrow a few words from the debate. The noble Lord, Lord Howell, who is a member of the committee and agreed with its conclusions, spoke of a dangerous and damaging part of a bigger picture; I agree with him. And if that picture still seems damaging and dangerous, we should not be allowing it to go to the House of Commons, or to any other part of this Parliament, without recording our disapproval. The noble Lord, Lord Purvis, in an excellent speech, spoke of manipulation of the evidence of scrutiny of compliance in Rwanda; he is absolutely right. He also spoke, as did others including my noble friend Lord Kerr, of cases in which people are given asylum in this country, in courts a few hundred yards from where we are today, because Rwanda is not a safe place for them to be sent. This is exactly what the Supreme Court concluded, and which has not been refuted by anything that has happened since, despite the efforts that have gone into this treaty.

I suggest that, before we could possibly reject the second Motion before your Lordships today, we need to hear the Minister provide—and I do not mind how long he takes—an answer to every one of the 10 points in paragraph 45 of the committee’s report. It will not do to tell us that we will be written to after the event. The Government should have put in their refutation before we met, and that refutation is not in the Government’s comments of 10 January—published though they are—because they predate the committee’s report.

I have been offended by criticism, some of it aimed at me and others who spoke out on the Rwanda subject, that we are unelected nobodies who are simply put here to obey the rule of the democratically elected House. That is not our role. One of our roles is to protect democracy—sometimes from itself—to ensure that Members of the other place, and indeed Members of our own House, do not overstep the mark and that they do not put us in conflict with the hallowed principle of the separation of powers.

This is not a case of the courts taking on the Government; this is a situation in which the Government have chosen to take on the courts. At the end of the day, what are they actually achieving? We know that only a couple of hundred people at the most would be sent to Rwanda. The Government do not have an aircraft on which they could put them or a pilot who would be prepared to take people who were disturbing the flight on grounds of safety. The cost has now escalated—it goes up every time I hear someone speak. I think it reached £390 million during the speech by the noble Lord, Lord Purvis. This is not what we should be doing, and it is our job to say so, as Members of the House of Lords.

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[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Sharpe of Epsom) (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful for this debate and all the contributions that have been made.

The Rwanda partnership and the treaty underpinning it, providing its foundations, if you will, is critical to the Government’s plan to establish an effective deterrent to dangerous crossings and to stop the boats. It is a topic that has been closely scrutinised in the weeks since the Supreme Court judgment, and I have little doubt that that will continue to be the case in the days and weeks ahead. That is not to say that this debate has any less merit. On the contrary, it has been instructive and insightful to have the committee’s report brought to life.

I will address the various issues that noble Lords have raised today and respond to some of the conclusions in the committee’s report and to the Motion moved by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, although I recognise that my time here is limited.

First, it is worth taking a moment to remind the House of what this policy is trying to achieve and its journey to this point. The UK has a track record of providing protection to those most in need of it through our safe and legal routes, with over half a million people coming to the UK in this way since 2015. We are rightly proud of that, but we also need to be clear that illegal migration diverts resources away from the effort to help the world’s most desperate and vulnerable people through safe and legal routes.

In short, the Rwanda partnership was created to enhance the UK’s efforts to tackle illegal migration, which is costly to the British taxpayer and imperils the lives of those making highly dangerous journeys. Our innovative approach goes hand in hand with our existing wider work across Europe and elsewhere, which has seen many thousands of crossings prevented and the number of arrivals fall by more than a third.

The noble Lords, Lord Fox and Lord Razzall, and the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, asked about the deterrent effect. The partnership is just one tool in our toolbox to tackle illegal migration, but we are making progress with our mission. As I said, the number of arrivals were down by a third—the first year that numbers have dropped since this problem started—while crossings to other European countries are up by 80%.

But we must go further: to fully solve this problem, we need a strong deterrent. As our work with the Albanian Government shows, deterrence works, and I thank the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for acknowledging that. Only by removing the prospect that illegal migrants can settle in the UK can we control our borders and save lives at sea—by sending the clear message that if you try to come here illegally and have no right to stay here, you will be returned home or removed to a safe third country. This will break the business model of the trafficking and smuggling gangs by removing the ability to sell entry into the UK. Of course, the deterrent effect of the MEDP will be fully realised once it becomes operational.

We are also taking action to crack down on the mafia-like criminal gangs, as the noble Lord, Lord Alton, described them, which prey on those seeking to cross the channel. That work continues, particularly in collaboration with the French. But this is also a comprehensive strategy, and we have to build on the progress we have made, which is where the Rwanda partnership comes in.

Noble Lords are well aware of the journey this policy has taken through the courts. We know the underlying principle of the policy—to relocate eligible individuals from the UK to a safe third country to have their asylum claims determined there—to be lawful and compliant with the refugee convention; the Supreme Court did not disturb the lower courts’ finding on that point. The IAC’s inquiry focused on how the agreement we now have protects those relocated to Rwanda and whether it deals with the concerns raised by the Supreme Court.

It is not right to say we have made these changes “notwithstanding” the Supreme Court; we respect the court and the rule of law. It is because of the Supreme Court’s judgment that we have made these changes. Having considered evidence submitted only up to summer 2022, the Supreme Court recognised changes that could be made to address its findings, improve the Rwandan asylum system and strengthen assurances. Significant and successful work has taken place with Rwanda since the time of that evidence to do just that.

The treaty does not override the court’s judgment; rather, it responds to it. And these are not “alternative facts”, as alleged by the noble Lord, Lord Purvis. It is perfectly constitutionally appropriate for Parliament to consider the protections we have secured and conclude that Rwanda will be safe for the purposes of asylum. Through the treaty, and associated work highlighted in the policy statement, we have addressed every point of the Supreme Court judgment.

I will highlight just some of the provisions of the treaty. There is a full package of support available for all those relocated, regardless of their eventual status. Everyone relocated will be accommodated and supported for five years, as long as they remain, so that they can study, undertake training and work. They will also have access to free healthcare for this time. Steps are being taken to further strengthen Rwanda’s asylum system, and a new appeals body is being introduced. New legislation is being developed in Rwanda to reflect the necessary changes to strengthen the asylum system, to fulfil their obligations and ensure all those relocated are protected. The appeal body will be co-chaired by one Rwandan and one other Commonwealth judge, who will select a panel of judges from a mix of nationalities to hear these appeals against refusals of asylum or humanitarian protection claims. For at least the first 12 months, the appeal body shall receive and take into account advice from independent asylum and humanitarian protection law experts before determining the appeal, and this expert opinion will be published. The establishing of the new appeals process ensures that the final determination of an asylum claim will be objective and independent, and this level of transparency makes clear our and Rwanda’s commitment to getting this right.

Crucially, there is absolutely no risk of refoulement for anyone relocated, regardless of status or circumstance, because the treaty is clear that under no circumstances will refoulement take place. The enhanced independent monitoring committee will have unfettered access to the entire system in order rigorously to assess both countries’ adherence to these obligations under the treaty.

I was asked a number of questions about the monitoring committee, which I will address. Before I go back to those, I point out that, regarding the appeals body, I did not talk about the tracking mechanism. I will come back to that, because nobody will be relocated without the necessary mechanisms for their protection being in place, in terms of the independent monitoring committee.

We have addressed explicitly the risk of refoulement through the treaty, which contains an undertaking from the Government of Rwanda that they will not remove anybody who has transferred from the UK to Rwanda. The treaty also enhances the role of the independent monitoring committee, as I have just said. Article 15 makes specific provision that enhanced monitoring will take place for a minimum of three months from the date the individual is notified that they are being relocated. The monitoring committee will ensure that obligations under the treaty are adhered to in practice and will be able to take steps to prevent errors at an early stage through real-time monitoring. The monitoring committee will provide real-time comprehensive monitoring, with an initial period of enhanced monitoring over the end-to-end relocation and claims process to ensure compliance with treaty obligations.

The monitoring committee will have the power to set its own priority areas for monitoring. It will have unfettered access for the purposes of completing assessment reports. It can monitor the entire relocation process from the beginning, from the initial screening to relocation and settlement in Rwanda. It will be responsible for developing a system to enable relocated individuals and legal representatives to lodge confidential complaints directly to the committee and will undertake real-time monitoring of the partnership for at least the first three months, but this can be extended. Then the monitoring committee will report on its findings to the joint committee and, following notification to the joint committee, it may publish reports as it sees fit.

These are significant protections, and they have been agreed in an internationally, legally binding treaty which the UK and Rwanda will abide by.

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)]

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. He has been very helpful, as he usually is. He has been going through the 10 items in paragraph 45, but he has not given a timeline for any of them. Will he give us a timeline for when those 10 items will be completed and an undertaking that nobody will be taken to Rwanda until they have all been completed and implemented?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

If the noble Lord will indulge me, I have a long way to go and I hope to get to all of his questions.

To question the treaty’s effect is to question both parties’ commitment to the rule of law, so I am grateful to my noble friends Lord Howell, Lord Sandhurst and Lord Wolfson, who made some very good points on this. I was sorry, but not particularly surprised, to hear the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, cast aspersions in the direction of Rwanda.

Again, I thank the IAC for its report, to which we will respond in writing as a priority; but I must be clear that the Government intend to see the conventional Constitutional Reform and Governance Act process through to the end, as normal. The Government recognise the intent behind the Motion, but we believe it is unnecessary and misguided. The Motion in question is completely unprecedented, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, noted, and, with all due and sincere respect to the noble and learned Lord, a mischaracterisation of the process. It is unnecessary as it is completely usual for Parliament to complete its scrutiny of a treaty and for the CRaG process to end before a treaty has been implemented. In just one example of this, the free trade agreements that the UK signed with Australia and New Zealand in 2021 and 2022 were laid before Parliament for scrutiny, and in both cases legislative changes were required to implement the obligations in the agreements; those changes were introduced in parallel. The scrutiny debates happened and the CRaG process ended long before those treaties were implemented. The implementing primary and secondary legislation measures were put in place and the treaties were brought into force in early 2023.

It is for any Government to decide, ahead of ratification of any treaty, whether the implementation required for the UK to be legally compliant with its treaty obligations has been duly put in place. I do not believe that the two debates should be confused, as they have been. We urge noble Lords to support the Government in their plans for the treaty to be implemented and ratified by both countries in due course. We have been clear throughout the development of this partnership that Rwanda and the UK must place the utmost importance on the safety of all those who are relocated. The mechanisms in place will ensure that both parties adhere to the obligations under the internationally legally binding treaty. It is vital that we stop the boats as soon as possible. The British people clearly do not want to see any further delay.

It would be remiss of me not to mention at this point the Safety of Rwanda (Asylum and Immigration) Bill, which will reach this House next week and ties in closely with what I have just said. This Bill sits above existing statutory provisions to enable Parliament to conclude that Rwanda is a safe country. The supporting evidence pack, which was released on 11 January, and the supporting policy statement, first given on 12 December, go into great detail concerning the information that gives us the confidence to say that Rwanda is safe. I look forward to noble Lords’ support for the Bill at Second Reading next week.

It is true that Parliament is being invited to conclude that Rwanda is safe based on this treaty and other matters, but that is not what is being debated today. We are debating whether there is anything in this treaty that means it should not be ratified, as my noble friend Lord Wolfson noted. The IAC has made some points about the treaty, but fundamentally it has not identified anything objectionable in the treaty itself. A debate on whether Parliament considers Rwanda safe is a debate that should and will happen in depth in the coming weeks as part of the scrutiny of the Bill. The IAC’s report concludes that the treaty might in time provide the basis for such an assessment—that is, that Rwanda is safe—if it is rigorously implemented. The Government’s position is that the treaty provides that basis, so we invite noble Lords to reject the Motion today and recognise that standard procedure should be followed. Once the treaty is ratified and the Bill passed, we can begin to operationalise the partnership.

I will now try to answer some of the more specific questions to do with the deterrence of the partnership. It was never about Rwanda or any other partner country being a hellhole, as described by the noble Lord, Lord Razzall, which I find quite offensive. It is about organised criminal gangs not being able to sell the UK as a destination. Only by removing the prospect that illegal migrants can settle in the UK can we control our borders and save lives at sea. By sending the clear message that if you try to come here illegally and have no right to stay here you will be returned home or removed to a safe third country we can break the business model of the trafficking and smuggling gangs.

The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, asked me about international comparisons as regards treaty scrutiny. The Government believe that 21 joint sitting days, which in parliamentary terms is likely to be a minimum of five weeks and often somewhat longer, is sufficient for Parliament to scrutinise a treaty. It is difficult to make comparisons between governmental systems, even with other parliamentary democracies, as each has evolved over time in line with its constitutional arrangements, which differ from one state to another. Each system reflects the constitutional make-up and separation of powers in that country. When similar parliamentary democracies are compared with ours, it is clear that our practice is in many respects similar to systems such as those of Canada, Australia and New Zealand. We consider that in many respects our system is in fact stronger than theirs, not least due to the existence in the UK of a statutory framework for treaty scrutiny.

The noble Lord, Lord Kerr, referred to the Supreme Court and Israel and the various comments that have been made about its agreement with Rwanda. We do not agree that it sets a relevant precedent or implies that Rwanda will not adhere to its obligations under our treaty. The terms of the arrangements between Israel and Rwanda are not available for scrutiny, are not transparent and are not monitored in the way that ours are. The scheme referenced was voluntary and open-ended and did not openly commit to guaranteed acceptance or a custodial role on the part of Rwanda. So on the information known, it bears little resemblance to the UK-Rwanda treaty and the lessons there are not directly applicable.

The noble Baroness, Lady Lister, asked a number of questions about children. Article 3 states:

“The Agreement does not cover unaccompanied children and the United Kingdom confirms that it shall not seek to relocate unaccompanied individuals who are deemed to be under the age of 18”.


The treaty does, however, provide for the relocation of children as part of a family. It should be noted that this does not constitute a policy change and is consistent with the principles of the extant memorandum of understanding. I urge those with family links in the UK to seek to come here via the existing safe and legal routes.

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[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I think I just did. I will go over it again. As I said, the Home Secretary, cannot say that it is more likely to be compatible than not. That is not the same as the question that the noble Baroness just asked me. This is the consequence of it being an ambitious and novel Bill. There is nothing improper or unprecedented about pursuing ambitious and innovative ways of solving such issues. We believe that it is lawful and we are acting in compliance with our international obligations.

The Supreme Court’s judgment was made on the basis of the facts in June 2022 when the case was brought. It made clear that, while it had concerns about the arrangements in place in June 2022, changes to safeguard against risks “may be delivered in the future”.

The UK’s treaty with Rwanda responds comprehensively to the court’s concerns. It provides a binding guarantee in international law against refoulement and provides guarantees about the treatment of relocated individuals in Rwanda. It reflects the work that we and the Rwandan Government have completed in the 18 months since June 2022 and, once ratified, it ensures that no one will be sent into a position where they would face a real risk of harm.

As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, noted, it is unprecedented for the House of Lords to place conditions on an international treaty in this way. Never in the history of the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010 has either House forced a vote to try to delay the ratification of a treaty until its provisions have been implemented.

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)]

I am sorry to be naggy, but I think the Minister got close to promising me an answer to my simple question about when, in relation to paragraph 5. Can we have that answer before he sits down?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

The answer to the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, is when we have the treaty and the Bill, and the Rwandans have passed their laws. That is when.

As I was saying, this begs the question: is Labour using the House of Lords to try to frustrate our plan to stop the boats?

Investigatory Powers (Amendment) Bill [HL]

Lord Carlile of Berriew Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 11th December 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Murphy of Torfaen (Lab)]

My Lords, I support my noble friends Lord Coaker and Lord West with regard to the Intelligence and Security Committee amendments. In 2005, when I became the chair of the Intelligence and Security Committee, nearly two decades had passed since the committee originally started life, when people did not really understand what it was all about. It had not been accepted, particularly, by agencies or by the Government, but over those 20 years, it became accepted. After I left, in 2007, even more changes to the powers and responsibilities of the committee were made, to such an extent that the ISC is now a significant and serious part of our constitutional landscape. But I fear that, over the last number of years, that has slightly declined.

I understand, for example, that the ISC has not met a Prime Minister—there have been lots of them, of course—over the last number of years, nearly a decade. Certainly, when I chaired it, we met the Prime Minister every year or so. It is an indication, I suspect, of what the Government think about it if they do not see it as so important as to meet the head of the Government now and again. I hope that is wrong, but I am sure the Minister will enlighten the House later as to what he and the Government think about the importance of the ISC. It is hugely significant; it is serious.

I shall move briefly on to the significance of the ISC with regard to the passage of the original Investigatory Powers Act, some years ago now, in 2015-16. I had the privilege of chairing the Joint Committee of both Houses on that Bill, and the ISC simultaneously was taking a huge interest in what it contained. For example, I met the then chair of the ISC, Dominic Grieve KC, and the committee itself produced a report on how it thought the original Act could be improved. I just hope that this small but important Bill—which I entirely support, by the way—mirrors what happened to the original Bill, so that the Government can indeed meet the ISC, at a ministerial level and at an official level, and have a proper dialogue as to how they see the ISC working after the Bill goes into law. I hope I can get some assurances from the Minister that that will happen.

It is an important Bill, the ISC is an important body, and they should operate together in a very special way. I wholly support the Bill, but I support the amendments from my two noble friends.

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, who has served with such distinction on the issues we are discussing this afternoon. I do not want to repeat what I said at Second Reading; I spoke in support of the Bill in general terms, and I remain in support of it. The only additional thing I would say is that we should not allow unnecessary amendment of the Bill to create a sort of legislative game of Dungeons and Dragons in which a bureaucratic labyrinth would be created which can be met in a much more practical way. On the whole, the Bill is pretty practical about a modern problem—a more modern problem than existed, say, 10 years ago—which has to be addressed in real time and sometimes with great urgency in that real time.

I want to say something that follows from what the noble Lords, Lord Murphy and Lord West, said about the ISC. I hope that we can tease a little more information out of the Minister, who has been extremely helpful to all of us who are interested in the Bill. I can see, and I would be grateful if the Minister would tell us, that there might be some practical problems relating to national security in the way in which the ISC was informed about problems arising under the provisions in the Bill when it becomes an Act. It would be helpful to the Committee if the Minister were to say from the Dispatch Box that the Government certainly do not exclude the involvement of the ISC in the consideration of the Bill. I should also be very grateful if he would say that the Home Secretary would regard it as a duty to inform the ISC on his personal responsibility if issues arose which ought, in the national interest, to be the subject of information to the ISC. Thus, the ISC might be able to report on these issues without too much bureaucracy being involved and any arguments about what is or is not disclosable in a wider way concerning national security.

[Baroness Manningham-Buller (CB)]

My Lords, I do not know whether I can help the noble Lord, Lord Fox, on his question of urgency. One of the things that the Security Service and the other intelligence agencies do is deal with matters of life and death, of imminent terrorist threats, of states pursuing one of their dissidents. There is many an occasion when moving at vast speed outside the hours when IPCO is available is necessary and proportionate. I am out of date, so it is hard to give lots of current examples, but many a time there is an urgent need to move fast to try to save life.

On the point from the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, about the ISC—we will come on to look at these amendments in more detail—as far as my service is concerned, we did not need to get used to the ISC in that we had been demanding its creation for a number of years, with resistance from the Prime Minister of the day until it actually came into being. And when it did, we very much welcomed it.

I have hardly had more pleasure since I have been in this House than from the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Fox, on seeking to forget stuff. Like some noble Lords, I have difficulty in remembering things—I am sorry, I should speak only for myself—but if I was legislated to forget something, it is almost certain that I would be capable of remembering it.

Investigatory Powers (Amendment) Bill [HL]

Lord Carlile of Berriew Excerpts

2nd reading
Monday 20th November 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)]

My Lords, stimulation comes in many forms, so I think I can say, without any disingenuousness, that it is stimulating to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett. Having heard her and the noble Lord, Lord Strasburger, I feel that I should start with a bit of my own experience, that of dealing with those extraordinary and usually highly intelligent people who work in the various security services. It is outrageous to assume that they would look into an individual’s credit card transactions or anything like that in the way that has been implied by at least two speeches that we have heard. I believe—indeed, I know—that their contributions have been key to the introduction of this Bill and that they have done it with intellectual integrity and with only one thing in their mind: the interests of their country, in which they live. Listening to the noble Baroness, I have a fear that she and I, at least in our minds, live in completely different countries.

The noble Lord, Lord Strasburger, expressed some extraordinary conspiracy theories which just do not exist and which, in my judgment, are—I hesitate to use the word, but I will—misleading. Both the speakers to whom I have referred have been on a safari into irrelevant issues which are not pertinent to the reality of what we are discussing. In the years since 9/11, the date on which I became the Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation—to be succeeded some years later by the brilliance of the noble Lord, Lord Anderson of Ipswich—various Governments all over the world have been challenged repeatedly by both evolving change and unexpected events affecting the terrorist threat landscape.

I suggest that the amount of legislation we have had since 9/11 has reached the point at which the Government should give consideration to a consolidation Bill, a codification in which all counterterrorism, interception and counterextremism legislation is included so that we have a living instrument to which lawyers, police officers, the security services and, of course, parliamentarians concerned can refer—a single place in which all this legislation is kept. This Bill is an example in some parts of the way in which extra legislation is being added piecemeal, although it is fair to say that legislation.gov.uk at least tries to include in Bills, if looked up online, the additional parts that have been created. It really is a time for codification, and the template for that is the Sentencing Code, which was created by Professor Ormerod when he was at the Law Commission.

I used the phrase “terrorism threat landscape” deliberately. Terrorism and related forms of extremism have morphed into one of the major and enduring geopolitical issues. It started with the word “terrorism”, but, since 9/11, these issues have become part of the defence and national security policies in every single country, including our own. It was a surprise when national security originally appeared as part of the defence strategy, but it is now completely established in that context.

Attempts to disrupt the stability of sovereign Governments, sovereign Governments themselves disrupting other Governments and the rise of new international factions are all matters that affect our debate; we have to understand the context of what we are considering. I thank the Minister for ensuring that your Lordships have been fully informed and have been given plenty of time; this has been a matter of discussion for a long time. My noble friend Lord Anderson reported some time ago on the background and primary considerations behind the Bill; I too add my special thanks to him for his excellent, detailed report, which is the foundation of the Bill.

Let us consider the context. The first responsibility of our Government is to keep their citizens safe and free to go about their legitimate business and interests. When we go to a concert, as in Manchester, for example, or to a shopping centre, again, as in Manchester, or come and go to this Parliament, along the streets outside without disturbance, which has not been everyone’s experience in recent days, we should be kept as free and safe from the terrorism threat as is possible within the legitimate constraints we set ourselves as a free society. That does not mean that we should resile for one minute from what we rightly regard as fundamental freedoms, but how fundamental those freedoms are is open to argument based on the assessment of proportionality that was mentioned earlier.

In that context—specifically in connection with bulk data, a major part of the Bill—we need to be realistic. In the years since some of us first handled house brick-sized mobile telephones that slotted into racks in our cars—at the time, I was a Member of the other place—we have ourselves given away, to a wide audience, private matters that, in the past, were closely protected. When we—the middle-aged and older men here, for example—buy clothes online, we give away details of our anatomy, including our shoe and waist sizes. That the security services have any interest in that sort of thing is a myth, but we have given away a huge amount of our information. To allow the state to use that information to catch terrorists seems to me to be a reasonable balance, if that use is circumscribed by the high level of judicial protection that the Bill provides and, in some respects, enhances.

When we speak about bulk data, we should bear in the mind the donation we have made of information, sometimes our most intimate details, and we should reflect on the public interest in allowing the authorities, subject to the protections built into the Bill, to use that bulk data—even the meta data that tells them when we made our calls and to whom, and from whom, they have occurred—to carry out their prime duty to protect the public. Maybe, from time to time, there will be people whose information has been mistakenly or improperly prepared, but they are provided, in this country and in this Bill, with greater legal protections than in any other country that I know.

This is an appropriate and good Bill. The Committee should not be distracted by mythology; it should seek to make the Bill better—but within its existing context.

Illegal Immigration

Lord Carlile of Berriew Excerpts

Monday 20th November 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)]

My Lords, first, I too praise the noble Lord, Lord Murray of Blidworth, at least for his determination with this Bill and the courtesy that he showed to the whole House at all times. However, why do the Minister and the Government not see that the proposal of a treaty with Rwanda would produce a document that would be yet another historically worthless piece of paper? Rwanda, on the facts and merits, has been found to be unsafe and, once somebody was sent to Rwanda, there would be no realistic possibility of enforcing their rights, whatever they were, through the Rwandan courts.

Secondly, does the Minister not agree that the ignominious squabbling among senior and former members of the Government is demeaning a serious subject on which we all have merited concerns, apart from a few who seem to regard it as trivial? Is it not now time for the Government to set about a doubled programme which would produce value, in cost terms, of dealing with the people in the backlog, wherever they are, as quickly as possible, by increasing the number of officials and putting the relevant courts and tribunals around the country so that they can deal with these cases on a day-by-day basis? Does he not agree that most of these cases could be dealt with within a few days if they were properly managed?

Finally, does the Minister agree that the Government should put all people who are de facto refugees back into the refugee system so that they can be dealt with according to the law and not by some artificial construct?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

The noble Lord has asked me a number of questions. There is another one in there inviting me to speculate about something. Again, I will not do that. I do not know what will be going into the treaty or how it will look, so there is very little point in me commenting on that.

I do not regard the subject as trivial. It is of fundamental importance to the country and to Parliament. I respect the fact that we can debate it and look forward to many more debates on it. As regards the arguments that are allegedly going on behind the scenes, I am afraid I have not seen any evidence of that. How they are being leaked and whether they are happening, I do not know—but of course passions do run high on this subject.

The noble Lord asked another question. I have totally forgotten what it is, but I am sure that somebody else will remind me and I can then answer it.

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)]

Putting them back in the refugee system.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I cannot comment on that at the moment, but, again, I am sure we will come back to it in due course.

Abortion Clinics: Safe Access Zones

Lord Carlile of Berriew Excerpts

Monday 20th November 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

As I say, there will be a public consultation, and I hope that all those whom the noble Baroness mentioned will engage with the consultation process.

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)]

Will the noble Lord guarantee that Section 9 will be in force and implemented before the next general election?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

That would invite me to speculate as to when the next general election might be.

Illegal Migration Bill

Lord Carlile of Berriew Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments
Wednesday 12th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will speak also to Motions F and G.

Motion B deals with the retrospective application of the duty to make arrangements for removal. We have reflected on the arguments put forward on this issue by the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, on Report. We have brought forward Amendments 22A and 22Q in lieu. Noble Lords will recall that the Lords amendments sought to move the operative date of the Clause 2 duty from 7 March this year to the date of that clause’s commencement. We believe that such a change carries a significant risk of there being a surge in channel crossings—a fire sale, if you will—as we approach the commencement date. To guard against this, the amendments in lieu instead provide for the duty to remove to apply to a person who enters the United Kingdom unlawfully from the date of this Bill’s Royal Assent.

We will keep this under review ahead of the Bill’s implementation, as we have included a reserve power to change the new operative date by regulations. This could, for example, enable us to focus the initial implementation of the Bill on those who arrived here illegally via small boats rather than by other means. I should stress that the 7 March date will continue to apply for the purpose of the power conferred on the Secretary of State to provide accommodation for unaccompanied children and for the purpose of the ban on re-entry, settlement and citizenship. I trust that this compromise approach will meet with the approval of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile.

Motion F relates to Lords Amendment 9, moved on Report by the noble Lord, Lord German. This relates to the issue of the inadmissibility of asylum and human rights claims within the UK system. It remains the Government’s contention that declaring such claims to be admissible is a core part of the scheme provided for in the Bill. The Court of Appeal unanimously confirmed that removing asylum seekers to a safe country for their asylum claims to be processed is entirely consistent with the refugee convention, including Article 31—a point that I mentioned a moment ago. This amendment would simply encourage people to game the system, drawing things out in an attempt to reach a six-month cut-off date. This amendment was rejected by the Commons by a strong majority of 76. Given that, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord German, will be content to agree to Motion F.

Finally, Motion G relates to Lords Amendment 23, put forward by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton. The United Kingdom is a stout defender of LGBT communities across the globe. Our commitment to this cause remains unwavering. So, although I understand and sympathise with the noble and learned Lord’s desire to protect LGBT people who would face persecution were they to be sent to one of the countries listed in the amendment, I remain strongly of the view that the amendment is unnecessary as the Bill already delivers the protections that he seeks.

We are committed to the principle of non-refoulement, as a Jamaican national who makes a protection claim will not be returned to Jamaica. Were they to be fearful of being at real risk of suffering serious and irreversible harm, and were they to be removed to a specified third country, they would be able to make a serious harm suspensive claim. As I have previously indicated, in considering such a claim, the principles enunciated by the Supreme Court in the case of HJ (Iran) would be applied such that if the open expression of a person’s sexual orientation would prevent them from living in the specified third country without being at real risk of serious and irreversible harm, they would meet the threshold for a serious harm suspensive claim.

I hope the noble and learned Lord has been able to reflect on my assurances and on the outcome of the vote yesterday in the other place, and that he now feels able to support Motion G. I beg to move.

Motion B1 (as an amendment to Motion B)

[Lord Carlile of Berriew]

Moved by

At end insert “, and do propose Amendment 22R as an amendment to Amendment 22B—

22R: After subsection (1) insert—“(1A) Regulations under subsection (1) may not be made unless a draft of the instrument has been laid before and approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament.””

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)]

My Lords, I hope I will be allowed a moment when referring to my Motion B1 and Amendment 22R on page 5 of the Marshalled List to pay a very short tribute to the staff of the Public Bill Office. I was treated very kindly by a very tolerant member of staff there when I was being completely dysfunctional late last night and early this morning. They have been put under enormous pressure, and I think we should appreciate that. It may have felt to them like bullying, I am afraid.

I do not know why we have been forced to consider these amendments today, or indeed before the Summer Recess. The very earliest this Bill could ever be used would be after the Supreme Court decision in October, or whenever that is given; we do not know the exact date. Indeed, that may not be the end of the litigation in any event. I do not understand why we were not left to consider this in the sittings in September. I hope we will not be put in this position again.

I now turn to my Motion. This is where I express my genuine gratitude to the Government—to the Minister and others, including the Chief Whip—because they have made, in my view, a correct and noble concession to the objections that this House voted for in an amendment I moved on retrospectivity, pointing out as I did at the time that retrospectivity, though not a “never”, is frowned on in our law.

My Motion on page 5 of the Marshalled List—which I will not test the opinion of the House on tonight—mitigates the rigour of the exception that has been created in the Government’s amendments. They say they have abandoned retrospectivity, to put it crudely, but they have retained a regulatory power to abandon retrospectivity. I am not going to force the issue tonight, but I ask the Government to reflect on the constitutionality of that approach, because it makes me feel decidedly uncomfortable. I do not want to dilute my thanks for the acceptance in principle of what I moved a few days ago.

[Lord German (LD)]

My Lords, I draw attention to my interests as laid out in the register. These Benches are supportive of the discomfiture, which the noble Lord, Lord Carlile of Berriew, just referred to, to find that eventual clarification. We also support Motion G1 in this group.

My Motion F1 would mean that if an individual has been made inadmissible under this legislation and has not been removed to a safe country after six months, their claim will be processed within the UK system. The Ministers in both Chambers, in response to my amendment at an earlier stage, said—it has been repeated here—that people might game the system or that it would incentivise people to make spurious claims so as to extend their time in the United Kingdom in order to reach the magic six months.

In response to this concern, the current form of Motion F1 would pause the calculation of six months during any suspensive claim as set out in the Bill. It is also important to be mindful that the Bill in itself is claimed by Ministers to prevent people from making last-minute legal challenges to stop removals. My Motion totally disincentivises people from making spurious claims.

The Minister in the other place said that my earlier amendment would undermine the Bill. It does not. It would simply provide a backstop that protects the taxpayers of this country from indefinitely supporting people existing in the UK in limbo.

The Government’s own impact assessment on the Bill assumes that people will be detained for 40 days before removal. In this Chamber, we have heard constantly from the Minister that it will be not months but weeks or days when people are removed. On that basis, the ability to make a claim after six months should not be a problem, because it is totally in line with the Government’s expectations of their very own Bill.

Without this amendment, the Home Secretary is setting herself up for an extremely challenging time. There will be no way of resolving the foreseeable challenge of not having anywhere to remove people who arrive in the United Kingdom on irregular routes. Whether that is resolved in the future, the Government express the desire that they will be able to make this happen. If you believe, in the Government’s own words, that the Bill can be “workable”, then it is entirely financially prudent for us in this Chamber to try and insist that, in the current climate, the Government should be prudent with their spending of the public purse in using taxpayers’ money to support people indefinitely and without a returns agreement—because six months will have passed.

In addition to the financial considerations, it does not seem to me to be particularly in line with a Conservative mindset to enforce that people remain in the United Kingdom without being able to contribute, use their skills or participate in society. If these people cannot be removed after a reasonable amount of time, their claim should be processed, so that they either get on with their lives in the United Kingdom or be removed to their country of origin.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, on getting a concession from the Government and understand the point he made with his Motion, which I understand he will not move. I am pleased that it has been accommodated.

The noble Lord, Lord German, explained his amendment extremely well; it provides a backstop for the taxpayer to stop people going into legal limbo, being a burden on the taxpayer indefinitely and getting into the grey area which so many in this situation are in right now. As he said, it is totally in line with the Government’s expectations of the Bill, so if the noble Lord chooses to press his Motion F1 then we will support it.

My noble friend Lord Cashman summed up the support for Motion G1, in the name of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton. If he chooses to move it, we will support him. As my noble friend said, it reinforces the principle of protection for LGBT people. In the words of the noble and learned Lord, Schedule 1 should not provide a veneer of respectability to certain countries that are currently on it, so we would support him.

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)]

My Lords, as I indicated earlier, I ask the Government to consider leaving to Parliament the final decision on any regulations reintroducing retrospectivity. That said, for the reasons I gave earlier, I beg leave to withdraw Motion B1.

Motion B1 withdrawn.

Illegal Migration Bill

Lord Carlile of Berriew Excerpts

3rd reading
Monday 10th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, I very much echo what the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, has just said. I want to draw attention to the fact that the last-minute publication of the child rights impact assessment, which required the intervention of my noble friend Lord Kennedy of Southwark, meant that we were unable to pay due attention to it during the Bill’s passage—despite children being among the Bill’s main victims. Therefore, I will say a few words now.

The UN Convention on the Rights of the Child makes clear that a child rights impact assessment should be built in

“as early as possible in the development of policy”.

The fact that it arrived so late and reads more like a repetitive post hoc justification of the Bill’s measures than a serious analysis of their implications for the rights and best interests of the child suggests that it was not. Noble Lords from across this House and the Children’s Commissioner have called for the assessment since the Bill’s introduction. The commissioner has now made clear that the assessment “does not allay” her

“concerns about the impact of this Bill on children”.

With particular reference to detention and the use of force, she notes that it

“relies on overly optimistic assumptions about what might come to pass to reach conclusions about the positive effect on children, while ignoring or overlooking the clear, evidenced and tangible negative impacts it will have”.

While the Home Office’s use of the DfE template is welcome, it serves to expose the lack of evidence to support its assessment of the impact on children’s rights and its failure to consult externally. From the perspective of process and outcome this is a travesty of a child rights impact assessment. I hope that we remember that when it comes to the process of ping-pong on amendments affecting children.

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)]

From these Benches, I echo the remarks made by the Minister about our late and lamented noble and learned friend Lord Brown, who is sorely missed and who was often an inspiration to us all, even when we did not entirely agree with him, because he always inspired conceptual thinking.

I thank the Minister—and I do mean this by the way—for his patience while under fire, even though I mostly disagreed with his responses when they came. However, behind and underneath that carapace of patience has been a failure to understand that the Government set out to do something that is neither possible nor legal. We were told that the Bill would stop the boats as a deterrent. However, we know that the boats were fuller than ever in June. We were told that sending asylum seekers and refugees to Rwanda would be a deterrent. However, sending them to Rwanda is illegal—I use the word advisedly—under the laws of this country, at least until the matter has been relitigated in the Supreme Court. In the Minister’s consultations with the Home Secretary, the Government should give serious consideration to pausing this Bill until that hearing has taken place. It seems extraordinary to me, as a long-time parliamentarian in both Houses, for this Parliament to be asked to pass a Bill which requires something unlawful to be done. I have a basic opposition to that.

I will say one other thing. Some of us are already receiving messages from various well-informed members of the media about changes the Government intend to make to this Bill. It would be helpful if we were informed at approximately the same time as the media so that we can make a considered judgment as to what we do during ping-pong and so that we can carry out the role which, I believe, we have performed effectively hitherto.

National Security Bill

Lord Carlile of Berriew Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments
Tuesday 4th July 2023 Lords Chamber

Finally, I will address the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord West, which looks to remove subsection (2) of the Government’s amendment in lieu. This would remove the six-month time limit from the amendment, and the Government do not support this approach. The six-month limit is an important part of showing that the Government take seriously the fact that consideration of whether the MoU needs amending should commence in a timely manner. Removing the time limit would suggest that the Government could delay consideration beyond six months, which I do not think this House would support. So I encourage the noble Lord not to move his amendment, and I beg to move.

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)]

My Lords, I now have the opportunity to speak to Amendment 22D. I thank the Minister and the others involved in the discussions we have had. I give particular thanks for the involvement of the Security Minister, whom he mentioned, in the creation of what the Minister offered today.

In my reamendment, I offered an independent review, which is quite a physical way—to use a metaphor—of examining the law in this area. We have been offered a much more neurological review, to use another metaphor, because it involves going to every place where knowledge is held within government of the possibilities by which foreign powers may contribute to political parties.

I am particularly grateful to the Minister because the Government are offering something that not only places a clear moral obligation on political parties by which their honesty will be judged, but which goes further. It means that there will be standards by which their honesty will be judged, which has potential implications for political parties that they had better pay regard to. Compared with the no-action approach when we last discussed this matter, what was decided today is a generous response by the Government.

I will close with another metaphor. The right reverend Prelate, who read Psalm 24 in Prayers this afternoon, spoke of a “pure heart” and “clean hands”. I doubt very much whether these measures will purify the hearts of political parties, but it will certainly make their hands much cleaner. I therefore announce my intention not to move Motion A1.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, I will speak to Motion B1, an amendment to government Motion B. I am very pleased that the Government have finally proposed an alternative amendment, recognising that only the ISC can undertake effective scrutiny of intelligence and security work undertaken by the Government.

The ISC supports the government Motion on the basis that my Motion is also accepted. It removes the requirement for consideration of whether the ISC’s MoU needs to be updated to commence within six months. We are concerned that such a time restriction may have unintended consequences; it might inadvertently affect the ability of the ISC to oversee security or intelligence activity related to the Bill. For example, if the Government commence new security or intelligence activity as part of the Bill outside the ISC’s remit—beyond the six-month period—the Government could attempt to argue that they will not consider any commensurate update to the ISC’s MoU as considerations are required to start within six months of the Bill coming into force.

Because of the Government’s long-standing refusal to update the ISC’s MoU, and their continued arguments to justify their refusal to accept independent oversight of the committee, the committee is of the view that it will be much safer for us to remove this time limitation to avoid any possible confusion in the future. Although that sounds like a lawyer’s argument, this is a lawyer’s issue; it is something we have to be quite careful about.

While the government Motion will not remedy the significant gap in ISC oversight that already exists in relation to intelligence and security matters, it at least seeks to stop the oversight gap becoming even bigger. I hope that this reflects a turning point and the beginning of a shift in the Government’s position, including their acceptance of the need for robust, independent and democratic oversight of secret intelligence matters.

However, the House should not forget the wider problem, and we should continue to insist on a remedy. With my ISC colleagues in the other place, I have already explained repeatedly why the ISC’s MoU needs to be updated more broadly. I will not repeat those arguments now, other than to say that currently there is insufficient parliamentary oversight of the Government’s intelligence and security activities.

Intelligence and security matters are too important for there not to be comprehensive parliamentary oversight. There can be no activity by the Executive which escapes democratic oversight. The Motion is the first indication from the Government that they have begun to grasp this fundamental principle and the importance attached to it by those in this House. Despite the Motion’s significant limitations, I support it being added to the Bill, with my own Motion, to ensure that there are no unintended consequences which may negatively affect the ability of the ISC to oversee the entirety of this regime. I encourage the Government to use this as a foundation for constructive engagement on the rest of the ISC’s MoU, which, as I have explained, urgently needs updating.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)]

I slightly despair listening to the noble Lord. Can we just ask for a little humility from treasurers of all political parties? I am afraid there is plenty of evidence that the garden is not as perfect as the noble Lord, Lord Leigh, is saying.

[Lord Leigh of Hurley (Con)]

I beg to disagree and am happy to offer humility. I note that recently the Labour Party returned a donation from a Mr Ian Rosenblatt which it decided was inappropriate. All credit to it. It happens regularly. This is not a political issue; this a cross-political matter. As I say, every donation is listed, so there is 100% transparency. I welcome my noble friend the Minister’s proposals, which I think are extremely sensible and helpful to this argument.

Illegal Migration Bill

Lord Carlile of Berriew Excerpts

Report stage
Monday 3rd July 2023 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Carlile of Berriew]

66: Clause 11, page 18, line 2, at beginning insert—
“17A(A1) This paragraph is subject to section 11(7) of the Illegal Migration Act 2023.”Member’s explanatory statement
This relates to the amendment in the name of Lord Carlile of Berriew to Clause 11, page 21, line 15.

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)]

My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendments 66 to 76, which stand in my name, and in support of Amendments 77 to 79. The substance of my amendments is in Amendment 76. What I apprehend will happen, if the matter is brought to the opinion of the House, is that we will vote on Amendment 66 and, if it is carried, Amendments 67 to 76 will be moved formally. That seems the correct procedure to me; I have not been contradicted in that.

The amendments I have tabled are designed to confirm that the lawfulness of immigration detention is not simply put in the hands of Ministers but remains subject to the principles established in common law. All the amendments in this group would reinstate the existing Hardial Singh principles and be consistent with the conclusion and recommendation of the Joint Committee on Human Rights at paragraph 202 of its report. What did it say? It said:

“The common law approach to immigration detention, established in the case of Hardial Singh, currently operates to ensure that immigration detention complies with Article 5 ECHR”.


Before we possibly hear criticism from some quarters of the House about the use of the European Convention on Human Rights, I remind your Lordships, as a parenthesis, that it has recently been cited by the Government in support of their case in the High Court. They cannot have it both ways; they have had it the way of wanting to support the convention in court. The Joint Committee goes on:

“This recognises that it must be for the courts to determine the legal boundaries of administrative detention … We are extremely concerned that this change would result in an immigration detention system that is not consistent with Article 5 ECHR. The Bill should be amended to ensure that there is independent, judicial oversight of individual liberty and compliance with Article 5”.


What are the Hardial Singh principles? Before I come to them, I will cite a dictum from my noble friend Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood, who—very sadly for the rest of us on this side of the House—retired recently. In 2012, in the case of Lumba v Secretary of State for the Home Department in what was then the House of Lords, rather than the Supreme Court, he stated:

“Freedom from executive detention is arguably the most fundamental right of all”.


That has been adopted, repeated and uncontradicted.

The four limbs of Hardial Singh, which were created by my noble and learned friend Lord Woolf in his judgment in that case, have been identified and described in more detail by Lord Dyson as four propositions governing the legality of Immigration Act detention emerging from Hardial Singh:

“i) The Secretary of State must intend to deport the person and can only use the power to detain for that purpose;


ii) The deportee may only be detained for a period that is reasonable in all the circumstances;


iii) If, before the expiry of the reasonable period, it becomes apparent that the Secretary of State will not be able to effect deportation within that reasonable period, he should not seek to exercise the power of detention;


iv) The Secretary of State should act with … reasonable diligence and expedition”.


Those are magnificent principles, created after repeated cases following our common-law tradition of creating sound precedent when there is not statutory law in place that is lawful.

The court makes its own judgment when applying the Hardial Singh principles and is not limited to reviewing the jurisdiction that has been exercised by a Secretary of State. It can examine “incidental questions of fact”, some of which

“the court may recognise that the Home Secretary is better placed to decide than itself, and the court will no doubt take such account of the Home Secretary’s views as may seem proper”.

Those are the words of Lord Justice Toulson in R v Secretary of State for the Home Department in 2007.

That is the legal basis for these amendments. I will now leave the world of reality and the law and take a short trip into cloud-cuckoo-land. If any of your Lordships wishes to have a quick cup of tea, they can hear a shorter version of this by simply going into iPlayer and listening to last weekend’s edition of “Dead Ringers” on Radio 4, which tore this Bill to pieces in about 35 seconds. We keep hearing from the Minister something that is not based on reality. He seems to have forgotten that the Government lost a case in the Court of Appeal last week. We hear their plea in mitigation that it was a 2:1 decision, but every day in this House we have majority and minority votes. Verdicts of juries by 11 to one or 10 to two are no less verdicts of juries than verdicts by 12 to zero, so that argument has no power whatever.

Above all, we in this House are entitled to expect the Government to obey the law. They cannot send anyone to Rwanda; it is unlawful. The Court of Appeal found that the risk of unlawful refoulement from Rwanda meant that the Rwanda scheme was unsustainable. Furthermore, when the statistics for June—which I mentioned in the House last week—were recalculated yesterday, they showed that the number of people coming on small boats has reached record levels. So it is not exactly the deterrent that the Minister has been calling for repeatedly, unless they are going to change their approach and say, “Come to Britain in your small boats; it’s the quickest way of getting to Rwanda and to the two-star hotel accommodation that is being supplied there”.

We are not in a realistic situation, because they can send nobody to Rwanda at the moment. The appeal to the Supreme Court will not be heard and adjudged upon before October at the earliest. We will probably be into the next Session of Parliament. It is a little bit of an insult to this Parliament that the Government have not obeyed the law as found in that case, withdrawn this Bill and said, “We’ll start again when we have a decision from the Supreme Court”.

We have to be careful that we are the antidote to oblique motives. There are oblique motives based on the assumption, and not on any good grounds, that the Government will be able to send people to Rwanda—maybe they will, maybe they will not, but at the moment they have lost. My request and submission to your Lordships is that the only decent thing this House can do—Members on all sides, and I hope that the lawyers will not contradict this—is support the Hardial Singh principles and back Amendments 66 to 79.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

My noble friend is right, in that it is one of the Hardial Singh principles that, if there is no reasonable prospect of removal, that person should not be detained. But I cannot agree with him that the policy of deterrence is not right, because it is clearly the Government’s intention to remove any illegal entrants to a safe third country. In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, I add that the Court of Appeal unanimously agreed with that being lawful as a matter of principle.

We recognise that circumstances can change. Where that is the case, detention must be reviewed. If it is considered that the anticipated period of detention is not reasonably necessary, the individual will be bailed. This reflects the existing legal and policy position on the use of detention.

It remains the Government’s view that the provisions in Clause 11 provide an appropriate balance between the respective roles of the Home Secretary and the courts. Accordingly, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)]

My Lords, I express my gratitude to the noble Viscount and others who have spoken on the Bill, including the noble Lord, Lord German. I now come to this place for my daily dose of disappointment. It seems to me that the Minister is deliberately missing the point. He cannot be failing to see it, and I very much regret having to say that.

Who do noble Lords trust to make these decisions: a Minister or the courts? I will tell them something about the latter, in case they have never seen any of these cases in court. Judges sit day after day in the Administrative Court, hearing case after case involving asylum and refugees, and they make decision after decision about whether a period of detention is too long, too robust or unreasonable in some other way. They have built up a corpus of law which has become reliable and admired not just in this place but throughout our jurisdiction and the common law world.

Make your choice. I am going to test the opinion of the House.

[Lord Lilley (Con)]

My Lords, can the noble Lord explain why our courts, and our officials acting under their duties, reach such different decisions from the courts and officials on the continent? Why do we reject only 25% of claims for asylum, whereas France rejects 75%?

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, this is Report and that intervention is not appropriate, I am afraid.

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)]

Whether it is appropriate or not—and I tend to agree with the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, on that subject—it seems to me that the noble Lord who just intervened has made a very selective judgment without analysing the continental cases that have taken place. I have given a fair description of what happens in our jurisdiction; it is the one that I regard well, and I hope that your Lordships will too.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Carlile of Berriew]

67: Clause 11, page 19, line 6, after “to” insert “section 11(7) of the Illegal Migration Act 2023,”
Member's explanatory statement
This relates to the amendment in the name of Lord Carlile of Berriew to Clause 11, page 21, line 15.

Illegal Migration Bill: Economic Impact Assessment

Lord Carlile of Berriew Excerpts

Tuesday 27th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

I do not accept the premise of the noble Lord’s question, if that is what it was. The impact assessment published yesterday supports the need for change, sets out the broad costs of implementing the Bill, outlines potential savings, and highlights examples of where policy and operations have delivered an impact on illegal migration in other countries. For example, it shows that, for every illegal migrant deterred from making these crossings, the Bill will save the taxpayer £106,000, rising to £165,000 if current trends in accommodation costs continue.

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)]

My Lords, can the Minister advise the House as to what weight should be given to this financial and legal impact assessment alongside the damage caused to the consistency of our domestic law and the terrible damage being done to our reputation as a keeper of international treaties?

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

As I made clear during its earlier stages, the Bill introduces a new legal regime, and it is the Government’s view that it is consistent with our international obligations, which we always strive to meet. It is right that the facts in this impact assessment, and in the overall assessment of the situation made by the Government, are in favour of this legislation.