Counter-Daesh: Quarterly Update

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Tuesday 24th May 2016 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

The noble Lord makes a series of very good points. Only this morning, I was down in Shrivenham, at the international military religious leaders’ conference, where from 19 nations we have 40 representatives of mainly Muslim denominations, all of them Army, RAF or Navy officers, coming together to share experiences in this area. I attended a lecture on the very subject that the noble Lord mentions. I have personally visited mosques and spoken to imams, and there is no doubt that around the country the Government are engaging with Islamic religious leaders to ensure exactly the point that he makes: that where the Koran is preached, it is preached correctly and no fog of meaning surrounds the words that are bandied about.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, following up that question, have Ministers had time to consider the reports in the press last weekend of concerns expressed by Sir Michael Wilshaw about illegal schools, often Islamic schools, operating here in the United Kingdom teaching in a way that promotes extremism? What action are the Government taking to sort out this problem, because these schools are often recruiting areas for people who end up with Daesh?

[Earl Howe]

The noble Lord makes a very good point. It is slightly outside my brief, as that is a Home Office matter, as he will appreciate. But I am aware that there is considerable concern across government about schools of the kind he mentioned, particularly unregistered schools, where a false ideology is being promoted. Again, I shall consult Home Office colleagues and, if I can give the noble Lord up-to-date information, I shall be happy to write to him.

Mental Health Services: Serving Military Personnel

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Thursday 14th January 2016 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

The noble and gallant Lord raises a very important issue. I do not believe that there is any shortage of information available. Personnel are given briefings and advice on whom to contact if they think they need help. These are reinforced by publicity material such as posters and leaflets in all unit primary care centres. Information is also available online on the MoD’s area of the GOV.UK website. Similar guidance can be found on the NHS Choices pages. I believe that there has been a significant improvement in the provision of this kind of information in recent years.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords—

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, we have plenty of time; we started early. I leave it to the two noble Lords to decide between themselves.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, when many of our young men, who are little more than teenagers, are being hounded by public interest lawyers, the Iraq Historic Allegations Team and the Iraq fatalities investigation unit, is it fully appreciated that they may have been under intense pressure in combat—even in a state of panic and mental stress—when they have been involved in individual incidents? Is this not what happens when we send young men and women to war?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, as someone who has returned to being a Defence Minister after a break of 20 years, there is no doubt in my mind that the Armed Forces have come a very long way in that time. They take the mental health of their personnel extremely seriously. As one would expect, the model adopted is one of best practice, prevention, early detection and the ready availability of evidence-based treatments. This applies not just during a deployment but pre-deployment and post-deployment as well.

Tax Credits (Income Thresholds and Determination of Rates) (Amendment) Regulations 2015

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Monday 26th October 2015 Lords Chamber

Tax credits will remain an important part of our support for those on the lowest incomes. Five out of 10 families with children will still be eligible to receive them and we will still be spending the same amount on tax credits in real terms as the last Labour Government did in 2007-08. But the SI before us today will change their operation in several respects. First, it will reduce the threshold at which working tax credits begin to be withdrawn from £6,420 to £3,850. As we do so, we will protect those on the very lowest incomes, while continuing to bring the overall Bill down.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, I ask the noble Baroness to answer my question directly, and not give me a tangential answer. When the Prime Minister said at the last general election that an incoming Conservative Government would not cut tax credits—child tax credits—was he telling the truth or was he deliberately misleading the British people? Let me have a direct answer to my question.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, we were very clear in the general election and in our manifesto that we would be introducing welfare savings of £12 billion and that these would be directed at working-age benefits. What we also did at the same time was promise a package of measures to support working families—a new settlement for the people of this country, so that they would continue to be better off in work and would continue to prosper. That is what we were very clear about in the general election campaign. That is what we were elected to deliver for the people of this country.

Secondly, the SI before us will increase the taper rate from 41% to 48%. This will mean that the rate at which tax credits are withdrawn will increase, but we will do so in a measured way with a gradual taper, which will still ensure that those on tax credits who work more will always take more pay home. Finally, it will reduce the income rise disregard, the in-year increase to an individual’s pay that can take place before their tax credit reward is recalculated, from £5,000 to £2,500—bringing it to a 10th of the rate it stood at when we came to power in 2010.

A sustainable economy which reduces inequality and provides opportunity for all means making choices. There are no easy options, but what we try to do is carefully balance spending and taxation decisions so that the richest pay the most towards services that are so vital to everyone, and the climate is right for everyone to seize opportunities to get on and to be successful. The Government’s job is to manage that in the fairest way while delivering the most important thing of all for working people: economic security and sound public finances.

The Government believe that as part of the overall package of measures that support working people, these changes to tax credits are right. If we want people to earn more and to keep more of their own money, we simply cannot keep recycling their money through a system that subsidises low pay. That is the Government’s case for these changes. But with the amendments we are due to consider, there are broader questions at stake, too, about our role in scrutinising secondary legislation and about the financial primacy of the other place.

I know that Members of this House on all Benches take their responsibilities very seriously and are committed to ensuring that the House fulfils its proper role, so let me be very clear. We as a Government do not support any of the amendments tabled to the Motion in my name, but I am also clear that the approach the right reverend Prelate takes in his amendment, by inviting the House to put on the record its concerns about our policy and calling on the Government to address them without challenging the clear and unequivocal decision made in the other place, is entirely in line with the long-standing traditions of your Lordships’ House.

The other three amendments take us into quite different and uncharted territory. All three, in the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady Manzoor, Lady Meacher and Lady Hollis, if agreed to, would mean that this House has withheld its approval of the statutory instrument. That would stand in direct contrast to the elected House of Commons, which has not only approved the instrument but reaffirmed its view on Division only last week. It would have the practical effect of preventing the implementation of a policy that will deliver £4.4 billion of savings to the Exchequer next year—a central plank of the Government’s fiscal policy as well as its welfare policy. It is a step that would challenge the primacy of the other place on financial matters.

I have been to see the Chancellor this morning at No. 11, and I can confirm that he will listen very carefully were the House to express its concern in the way that it is precedented for us to do so, and that is on the right reverend Prelate’s amendment. But this House will be able to express a view on that amendment only if the other three amendments on the Order Paper are rejected or withdrawn.

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[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

The point is that this is a budgetary matter and budgetary matters are the prerogative of the elected House. That is the most important constitutional principle. This was designed to reduce the budget deficit, which everybody on all sides agrees has to be eliminated, by something like £4.5 billion. It is quite clear that this is the Chancellor of the Exchequer’s measure, in effect, whosever name may be on the statutory instrument. That is the constitutional position. I said I would be brief, so I will not elaborate, but that is clear.

On the other hand, I also said I am torn, because I believe that there are aspects of this measure which need to be reconsidered and, indeed, changed. The right honourable George Osborne, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, made it clear that he was going to get a lot of his savings, probably the greater part, from the welfare budget, and tax credit, which has ballooned enormously in recent years, is a large part of the welfare budget. I think that is absolutely fair, but the question is the particular incidence of this package in the regulations. What concerns me is not that there are high implicit marginal rates of tax—which are transient, incidentally. That is the case with all means-tested benefits and it is absurd to say that means-tested benefits can never be reduced. Nevertheless the tax credits system—the in-work benefits—rise surprisingly high up the income scale, but here the great harm, or a great deal of the harm, is at the lowest end. That is what needs to be looked at again; that is what concerns me. It is perfectly possible to tweak it to take more from the upper end of the tax credit scale and less from the lower end.

I heard my noble friend the Leader of the House say that the Chancellor would listen to this debate. I would have been surprised if she had said that the Chancellor would not listen to this debate. Of course he will listen to this debate, but it is not just listening that is required. Change is required. I very much hope that my noble friend Lord Howe, when he winds up, will indicate that there will be change, though he cannot indicate what, but I must say that my present intention is to support the amendment in the name of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Portsmouth.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

I hope that the Chancellor of the Exchequer listens very carefully to the contribution of the former Chancellor of the Exchequer the noble Lord, Lord Lawson of Blaby, because his support for what appears to be the Frank Field amendment should be taken seriously. The Leader can call on all the constitutional arguments she can muster in support of the Government, as indeed can the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, on the issue of financial privilege, but all those arguments pale into insignificance when compared with the greater argument that the general public, millions of people outside this House, are considering today—that being statements given during the course of the general election, solemn undertakings given by Cabinet Ministers to the British people, on what their attitudes would be to tax credits.

Mr Gove gave the undertaking that there would be no cut in tax credits, which he was unable to substantiate by way of any agreement, but that is what he said on television, in an interview. Mr Cameron deliberately misled the British public, who would regard what he said now as a lie to win a general election. The British public are fed up with politicians who tell lies on that scale. It exceeded the misleading of the public in the case of the Liberal Democrats over tuition fees; at least they did not know what was going to come after the election when they misled the public. In this case, Mr Cameron did know, and the Government set out to avoid revealing the facts by hiding behind the statement that they would have to make substantial cuts without going into details. Those lies trump all the constitutional niceties, whether they be financial privilege or the fatality of amendments, and it is on that basis that I intend to support the amendment tabled by my noble friend Lady Hollis this evening. The public cannot take this scale of lying.

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[Lord Fowler]

My Lords, I spent three months every year debating with the Treasury the proposals that it put forward to cut my budget. One counterargument I never used was that the specific cost-cutting measure was not in the party’s manifesto. Frankly, I had quite enough trouble getting the Treasury to recognise the measures that were in the manifesto. Every Government introduce measures not contained in the manifesto. The last thing I did was to introduce the dock labour scheme—there was not a word about that in the manifesto. Back in my old social security days, Barbara Castle, under pressure from the Treasury, altered the whole basis of measuring inflation at a cost and a saving of well over £1 billion.

The truth about reduction in benefit spending is that it is always going to be unpopular. I found that in Cabinet everyone was in favour of doing it in general but when it came to the specifics they always said, “Please, not that way”. Frankly, I think that the Conservative manifesto in 2015 spelled out what was intended with more clarity in this area than any manifesto I can remember on either side. The Government said in words that they would have to find £12 billion from welfare savings. That is a good deal more specific than any manifesto I had anything to do with myself and, indeed, any manifesto which ever came up on the other side.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, in light of what the noble Lord just said, does he think that it was right for Mr Cameron to rule out cuts to tax credits at the time of the general election?

[Lord Fowler]

We have been round this particular point because the noble Lord has made it several times. More to the point, it has been considered now three times in the House of Commons and has been rejected. In fact, I think he was talking about considering child tax credits and not the whole ball game.

The manifesto also made it clear in words that pension upratings would be protected. In other words, that area of retirement would be ring-fenced. I do not think there was any great controversy about that. By ring-fencing pensioner benefits the Government narrowed the field very substantially from where the £12 billion cuts could come. It follows as night follows day. Not everyone will agree with that diagnosis. Indeed, my major reason for introducing family credit was my concern for low-income working families with children. Even then it was clear that pensioner earnings were improving and increasing and that was not being followed by the low-income families.

I do not think that anyone can have imagined how spending on tax credits was to escalate in the way that it did. Tax credit spending trebled in the 10 years up to 2010 and by the Budget of this year was estimated to be about £30 billion a year. That was a long way from the original aim. However, I accept that none of this was the fault of the families who are struggling to make ends meet, often in very difficult circumstances. I totally accept and agree with that. I therefore welcomed the assurance of the Leader of the House when she said that these matters would now be considered again. I hope that when they are we can find room to look particularly at families with children. That is a priority, and Frank Field has a Motion down on this. That argument is particularly strong. Whether the Government do this or not—and this is the point—is frankly a matter for the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who is answerable on this and other financial matters to the House of Commons and not to us. It is a common-sense position—

Armed Forces: Baltic Defence

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Tuesday 24th February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, NATO is working to tackle the challenge of hybrid attacks. There is little new in the tactics and techniques of hybrid warfare, such as subversion and the use of proxy forces, but the scale of sophistication of Russian activities, combined with the use of new instruments such as cyber, presents a new challenge and we are doing our best to get on top of it.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

What assessment is being made by the British Government and Ministers of the impact on Russian public opinion of provocative NATO exercises on the border with Russia?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, we are well aware of the very good point made by the noble Lord.

Afghanistan: Interpreters

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Tuesday 10th December 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I am very happy to write to the noble Lord, Lord West, and put a copy of my letter in the Library.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord referred to a review. What factors will influence that review?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, we review the situation every six months. Obviously the level of intimidation, which is relatively low at the moment, is an important factor that would be considered.

Afghanistan: Troop Levels

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Thursday 26th April 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, first, I agree entirely with my noble friend how really important it is that enough money is raised to keep the Afghan national security forces as a strong and potent force. The Statement mentioned the figure of £70 million. I understand the aspiration to be discussed in Chicago is a figure of $4 billion a year, which will be needed to keep the Afghan national forces going.

My noble friend’s second question was about the withdrawal of equipment and whether we have a broad estimate of the value of all this. There is still a lot of work going on in my department and it is really much too early to say how much kit will be brought back and how much will be left. A lot of the cost of this will depend on the route and whether it comes out through Pakistan or through the north. It is much too early to answer that question.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, I join others in extending my personal condolences to the families of those who have bravely lost their lives in the Afghan campaign. On that matter, are the deaths of civilian staff who are part of the UK contribution reported to Parliament? If so, in what form are they reported? I ask that question in the light of reports in the weekend press that that is not the case. I am sure the Minister would wish to clarify that position.

Will he also tell us what proportion of all UK personnel involved in the Afghan campaign are involved in front-line operational combat duties at any time? Is there a rough percentage? In addition, to what extent are the comments of Frank Ledwidge in his book Losing Small Wars an accurate portrayal of what is happening in Afghanistan? Has the Minister read that book? Have departmental officials studied its comments, some of which may need denial?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, first, I agree with the noble Lord about the terrible price that a number of members of the Armed Forces have paid with their lives and the tribute we should pay to their families. I am not sighted on the number of civilians who have died and whether their deaths are reported to Parliament but I will undertake to write to the noble Lord and to put the letter in the Library. Again, I do not have figures in terms of a percentage or a proportion of the number of civilians working on the front line but when I was in Camp Bastion recently I saw quite a number of them. I do not have the slightest idea of the percentage, but, again, I will write to the noble Lord.

The noble Lord’s third question about Losing Small Wars was interesting. The answer is no and yes. Interestingly, while I was being briefed on this Statement, an official asked me whether I had read this book and I said that I had not. He had just read it and said that I must read it. Certainly before the next Statement I will have read that book.

Defence: Reform

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Monday 27th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bramall]

The report on defence reform by the noble Lord, Lord Levene, is yet another chapter in the steady evolutionary process of the higher organisation of defence going back some 47 years to the Mountbatten reorganisation, in which I had some direct involvement. I even recognise some of the same cries and aspirations.

I want to ask two questions, but before I do, having had a chance to read the report and based on consideration experience I must say that I consider it to be a well considered, logical, sensible and helpful report that will give very good guidance for the future, although whether it will achieve the aim, to which I heartily subscribe, of making the Ministry of Defence a smaller action headquarters capable of delivering effectively, economically and on time what is required to support and sustain the national strategy that has been agreed by the National Security Council will, as has already been said, depend on the attitudes and actions, to say nothing of the calibre, of those who have to implement the reform.

My first question is: does the Minister agree that if the CDS alone is to represent the overall military view at the Defence Board with sufficient strength, substance, urgency and authority to ensure that operational policy and what is practicable and realistic in combat do not get out of step, he requires the manifest support and ready advice of the heads of those services who have the responsibility of carrying out that policy? The Chiefs of Staff in committee with, where necessary, direct access to the Secretary of State and, indeed, to the Prime Minister during operations still have an important part to play. Otherwise, the operational and military requirements that may make all the difference between success and failure, if we have to deploy forces, may not get taken care of quite as enthusiastically as the political and financial ones, which have wide and urgent representation. Some reassurance on that point would be welcome.

Secondly, although the head of each service is still called a chief of staff, because he is responsible to the Secretary of State and has now gratifyingly been given more power and flexibility to run his own service, will we not be asking too much of one man if he is to be expected to combine his overall policy functions in that respect with the day-to-day geographically extensive command and administrative responsibilities of a commander-in-chief?

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

I wonder whether I can catch the attention of the Whip, whose responsibility it is to police the House.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

I was aware of what was going on, and I believe that the noble and gallant Lord has concluded.

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[Viscount Trenchard]

My Lords, I also thank my noble friend the Minister very much for repeating the Statement. I will not delay the House as long as I intended because the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Bramall, put the points that I was going to put far more eloquently and with far more experience than I—although it is a pity that the House was prevented from hearing the conclusion of his remarks.

I have one or two further questions for my noble friend the Minister. First, I am not quite sure about the joint forces command. Is this an additional command similar to land, air and fleet? Where will it be located and what kind of operations will it undertake? Secondly, I entirely agree with the noble and gallant Lord about the Defence Board. At present, the balance on the Defence Board is seven civil servants to five military personnel—the chiefs and the Vice Chief of the Defence Staff—and it will be seven to one. That is an extraordinary change in balance. Like the noble and gallant Lords and other noble Lords who have spoken, I wonder whether the Chief of the Defence Staff really can represent the interests of all three services, let alone the interests of the three services in relation to the civil servants.

Thirdly, on the role of the Defence Council, I understand that in law it is not the Defence Board but the Defence Council in which the statutory authority to control defence is vested. I understand that there is no intention to remove the Chiefs of Staff from their place on that.

Lastly, does the Minister think—

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, we are about to have a debate to deal with these abuses.

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours. He is trying to remind us that there is a House full of people wishing to start the next debate. I know that the noble and gallant Lord and others see this change in organisation at the Ministry of Defence as also highly important, but I remind the House that during Statements,

“although brief comments and questions from all quarters of the House are allowed, statements should not be made the occasion for immediate debate”.

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours that questions and comments should be brief.