British Steel

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I can expand a little on procurement. As the noble and learned Lord knows, there are rules that the Government must stick to, but we were able to relax them so as to allow, for example, government procurement to make use of British firms slightly more liberally than was the case in the past. It might be better if I write to the noble and learned Lord in greater detail on that point, but certainly we have been encouraging the government departments that use steel to use British steel wherever possible.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, will the Minister confirm that, in the event that Ministers allow British Steel to fail, HS2 rail requirements will be met in Hayange in France as opposed to Scunthorpe?

Draft National Policy Statement for Geological Disposal Infrastructure

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Thursday 6th September 2018 Grand Committee

[Lord Henley]

I am fairly sure that that will be the case. I congratulate the noble Lord on spotting a marginal difference in the two—the noble Lord speaks as a greater expert than I am. I would be grateful for the opportunity to write to the noble Lord in greater detail. It is important that we get these things right. That is why I have made it quite clear that no decisions have been made. This is not an attempt to impose something on Cumbria that it does not want; it is not something to impose on the Thames Valley—I am thinking of community involvement in Staines or Heathrow or wherever. It is not something that we are proposing. We want to find somewhere with the right geology and the right community involvement.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

In 1995, Nirex appealed against the decision of Cumbria County Council to refuse permission for a rock characterisation facility which would have led to the construction of what we are looking at today. Will that report and the evidence taken at that inquiry be fully considered when decisions are taken in dealing with this application when it comes?

[Lord Henley]

The noble Lord will be aware that I have been around for quite a long time and references to that were made earlier. I am not an expert on the Nirex report. I know that it did not rule out Cumbria as being unsuitable geologically, but again it would be right and proper if I wrote to the noble Lord on that point. I welcome him to this debate. Certainly, we will address the point in due course.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Will the Minister put a copy of the response to me in the Library?

[Lord Henley]

I will make sure that my response is available not only to the noble Lord but, as always, in the Library.

Community involvement and who the community should be were also matters of concern, particularly to the noble Lord, Lord Fox. The Working with Communities policy proposals state that those who have a say in whether the GDF is sited, once we have decided on geology, will be those who would be directly impacted by the construction and operation of the GDF. The noble Lord, Lord Fox, dismissed this as a bribe, but this is a multi-billion pound infrastructure investment—I shall say a little more about costs—that is likely to have a positive effect on the local community. Those benefits will not materialise for decades after the initial interest is shown and will benefit future generations rather than current residents. That is why the Government are making community investment funding available to those communities that participate in the siting process in order to demonstrate that we are serious about the opportunities and benefits that hosting a facility will have and to recognise the efforts of the local community early on in that process.

The noble Lord, Lord Judd, was, I think, worried that, although this might bring jobs, the number of jobs will diminish over time. That is true. In the very long term the number of jobs will go down, but I recommend that he looks at what has been happening at Sellafield with all the cleaning up that is going on there. On my last visit I was assured that the clean-up is going to continue for many years to come—I see the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, nodding—and it is quite likely that those who are going to be involved in the final clean-up at Sellafield have not yet been born. We are talking about a very long timescale on that front, and I think the same will be true of the development of this facility.

The noble Lord, Lord Fox, asked who exactly will be doing this and how we can be sure that they will be there for a long time. Radioactive Waste Management, a wholly-owned subsidiary company of the Nuclear Decommissioning Authority, is the body involved with the long-term clean-up at Sellafield. As he knows, the NDA is a non-departmental public body responsible for implementing a safe, sustainable and publicly acceptable geological disposal programme. Under the Energy Act 2004, the NDA is required to decommission and clean up designated nuclear sites and is responsible for the operation of the designated facilities for the disposal of hazardous material.

I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, who asked about costs. It is very difficult to speculate on what those long-term costs might be. One remembers the American senator with his “a billion here, a billion there and pretty soon we are talking about real money”. I have a figure—I do not know how accurate it is likely to be—of around £12 billion for legacy waste for the likely inventory that we can foresee at the moment. How long that will last and how accurate that will be will be a matter of speculation. We are in the process of updating the cost estimate in line with the wider update of the programme business case, in line with best practice, and that will need to allow for risk, uncertainty and optimism.

I see time is drawing on. There was one final point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, about post-2018 and the European Union (Withdrawal) Act and whether the spent fuel and radioactive waste directive will cease to exist after exit. The 2018 Act has gone through and preserves most parts of existing law, as the noble Lord will remember from the long discussions. Requirements in Euratom directives do not have direct effect—that is, they do not give rise to enforceable rights for individuals that are not directly preserved by the Act, and that is the case for the relevant part of the spent fuel and radioactive waste directive.

I hope I have answered most of the points that were put before me. I will go carefully through what has been said in the course of this debate and respond to points that noble Lords have made if I feel that I have missed them. I also repeat the offer I made at the beginning, and I hope my officials will bear with me repeating it. If any noble Lord wishes to talk further to officials on this, I am more than happy to make them available and I recommend that noble Lords get in touch with my office to arrange that should they wish to do so.

Motion agreed.

Smart Meters Bill

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 15th May 2018 Lords Chamber

We must move forward. Most of the clauses of the Bill are good and I would not want to get in their way, but we say to the Government, “Okay, you’ve said it’ll work. Get on with it. Good luck, but the rest of the House thinks that you haven’t got a chance”. I rest my case.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, subsection (5)(b) of the new clause proposed by my noble friend states:

“an assessment of the future developments thought feasible and desirable for the smart meter programme, including monitoring of customer activity so as to deliver least cost tariff benefits combined with the maximum ability to engage with future appliance applications, inter-operability, compatibility with smart phones and tablets, and the encouragement of self-generated capacity in the home”.

I shall concentrate on the word “interoperability”, which I raised in Committee.

I was with some friends last weekend and we had a discussion about smart meters. The general view was that the problem with them is that you cannot switch suppliers. Although we are assured by Ministers that we can switch suppliers, the public believe that that is impossible without losing some information. My friends said that some suppliers refuse to have anything to do with the meters provided by others.

We need today from the Dispatch Box an undertaking that under whatever arrangements are ultimately in place, there will be absolute interoperability whereby, whoever is the supplier, the meter will work and provide information on the number of units consumed, the price per unit and the total paid to that point for the power consumed. The public need the assurance that if they get a smart meter, they can switch between suppliers quite liberally without losing any of the facilities available from an existing meter. I would like that assurance from the Dispatch Box, because I am sure that it would resolve many of the existing concerns in the country on the failure of the equipment to be interoperable.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Henley) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, and other noble Lords for introducing their amendments. I think that it was the noble Baroness, Lady Featherstone, who said that she came late to this debate. That is true of a great many of us—but she is right to say that it has been going on a long time, through a Labour Government, the coalition Government and now under this Government. I believe we are making progress, and I want to correct the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, who implied that only about 300 smart meters had been installed. I hope that was just a slip of the tongue and he was just referring to SMETS 2. As he is aware, some 10 million smart and advanced meters are operating across Great Britain, which are being installed at a rate approaching 500,000 a month—and I hope that figure will go up, as all those first-generation meters are expected to be enrolled within the national infrastructure from later this year.

I also thank the noble Lords, Lord Grantchester and Lord Stevenson, the noble Baroness, Lady Featherstone, and the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, for the way they have co-operated on this Bill, and the constructive approach they have taken to its scrutiny. I hope that, as a result, we will fairly quickly be able to move on to other matters and then, once the legislation is finished with, get on with the programme and meet the aims shared by the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, and I. We have heard concerns about how well the smart metering programme will deliver benefits for consumers. I hope that in due course we will be able to address the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours.

I am convinced, perhaps because I am one of those eternal optimists, that the programme will be a success. The noble Baroness, Lady Featherstone, smiles at me because she thinks I am too much of an optimist—or too much of a Tigger—in these matters, but it is better to be a Tigger on this occasion than an Eeyore. I shall continue to do so, and I hope the noble Baroness will accept that progress is on the way.

I recognise the spirit in which the amendments have been proposed. While I cannot accept them, I want to set out several commitments that the Government are making, which I hope will address noble Lords’ concerns.

I turn, first, to the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, which would require the Secretary of State to establish and put into regulations a national plan for smart meters with associated implementation requirements. We believe we have the right strategy in place for ensuring that the smart metering programme is delivered cost-effectively and that consumer benefits are optimised. The Bill, in seeking an extension to the duration of the Secretary of State’s regulatory powers, recognises that the Government are accountable for delivering the benefits of smart metering and that we need to maintain close oversight of implementation.

There are various aspects of what is proposed that duplicate work that the Government already have in place, which we do not believe would ultimately work in the best interests of consumers. However, we have reflected closely on the concerns that the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, has expressed regarding the programme, and have concluded that there is more we can do to address his concerns to help the programme succeed. We have identified three actions we are prepared to commit to as a result.

I recognise that there is an appetite for the Government to do more to ensure that we are transparent with consumers and Parliament in monitoring and tracking delivery. The programme already publishes quarterly rollout statistics, and we have committed in the other place to publish more substantial reports on programme delivery. I can further commit to publishing, by the end of 2018, as part of our annual report on progress, a forward plan of activity. This will show that the Government have a clear plan for resolving the remaining technical and operational challenges to delivering the programme. The report will be placed in the Library of the House.

I sympathise with noble Lords’ desire for further assurance that the Government have a firm hand on the tiller on all aspects of the programme. I therefore commit to publishing, by spring 2019, a report that will provide a stocktake of progress towards delivering the consumer benefits of the programme. We will take evidence from consumer representative bodies and Ofgem in preparing the progress report. The planned National Audit Office inquiry on the smart metering programme, which we currently expect to report by the end of this year, will be another important strand of evidence. It is right that Parliament should have an opportunity to scrutinise the report. The Government will therefore bring forward a ministerial Statement on the final report, allowing some sort of debate in both Houses of Parliament.

We believe that smart meters will be game-changing for how consumers engage with their energy use and the market. The amendment seeks an assessment of how well the programme is future-proofed and we recognise that there are merits in undertaking an assessment of the smart meter platform in support of this. I therefore commit to publishing a paper by the end of this year that will draw out and promote the potential of the data offered by smart meters for future innovative consumer technologies and services.

The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, raised interoperability and claimed that it is difficult to switch between suppliers. It will be important for suppliers to communicate to consumers that they can switch supplier without risk of losing services. From later this year, the enrolment of SMETS 1 meters is expected to take about a year. All SMETS 2 meters will be fully interoperable from the outset. If the noble Lord requires anything further, I am more than happy to write to him.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, in the event that a second supplier takes over, will the information on the meter provided by the first supplier be equally made available by the second?

[Lord Henley]

I think the noble Lord is correct, but if not I will write to him on that matter.

Amendment 2, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, relates to SMETS 2 testing. I recognise that at the heart of the amendment is a concern that the Government are pushing ahead with transition to SMETS 2 meters without adequate checks and balances. We want to transition to SMETS 2 meters as they are better for energy consumers. As I made clear, they offer full interoperability from the outset, cost advantages and support for energy network planning and investment decisions, from which efficiencies and consumer energy cost savings can flow. This is why we will put in place a SMETS 1 end date to drive the transition to SMETS 2 meters.

I reassure the noble Lord that we are not driving this transition blindly. We have thorough and mature industry-wide monitoring and governance that allows us actively to scrutinise this transition. We closely monitor energy supplier and DCC operational capability, meter availability and reliability and supply chain maturity. That is underpinned by a robust testing regime across the end-to-end system set out in the regulatory framework via the Smart Energy Code. It requires, and provides assurance, that the DCC’s systems and services meet requirements; that suppliers and other DCC users are capable of using the services that are provided by the DCC; and that the metering equipment which suppliers enrol with the DCC is interoperable with the DCC’s systems and compliant with the relevant technical specifications. This is backed by device certification via the National Cyber Security Centre’s commercial product assurance scheme.

After undertaking their own thorough testing, leading energy suppliers are now rolling out SMETS 2 meters to real customers at low volumes, demonstrating their confidence in the preceding testing. We think it is right to continue to press other energy suppliers to make the same transition, on the back of their own testing. We are in close dialogue with the DCC and suppliers, and if it was shown not to be in the interests of energy consumers, we would provide further time for the transition.

In light of those assurances, and given the substantive commitments to further government action and information that will be made available to both Houses, I hope the concerns of the noble Lord and all other noble Lords who took part in the debate have been dealt with, and I hope the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

Smart Meters Bill

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 24th April 2018 Grand Committee

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

I was engaged in debates on these matters with the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, 10 years ago, when the original legislation was put through. I am unable to understand what pressure is on the Government to get on with this before the National Audit Office produces its report. I would have thought that that report was critical in all this, as it may well make recommendations that do not fit within the proposals of this legislation. What is the pressure? Could we not have waited for another six months? What would have happened if we had?

[Lord Henley]

I have been criticised for the Government going rather slowly on something that was introduced in 2006 by the Government of whom the noble Lord was a supporter. As the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, said, this has continued through the length of two world wars and a bit more; I asked him not to specify any further wars. The NAO has already reported three times. As I said, we will respond to the NAO’s report, but I do not see why we should not continue with what we are doing at the moment. As far as I know, we are all in full agreement on the general benefits of a smart metering programme and of getting as many people as possible on to it, so that they will be wiser about their use of energy and more able to consider which energy supplier to choose—I am just giving all the benefits of smart meters. I do not think that there is any need to pause for the NAO report. As I said, we will consider it and respond as appropriate.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Has the NAO expressed a view on whether the legislation should have been delayed? It will have a view. Is it happy for us to proceed with legislation without its report?

[Lord Henley]

I am not aware that the NAO has asked for any delay, but the noble Lord can look at its three reports, including the most recent one, which I have referred to. I will leave that to him.

As I said, we published our prospectus document in 2011, which established a framework for the rollout and was the basis for the regulatory framework through which the rollout is now being delivered. It is right that we have progressed from planning to implementation. Both the Government and Ofgem are focused on monitoring the rollout to ensure that it delivers in a timely way—albeit, as the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, put it, slightly less timely than he would have liked. Where our monitoring activity identifies areas where the course of the rollout needs to be adjusted, we will of course take action.

In due course, we want smart metering to be business as usual in a competitive retail market. The Government will then be able to step back when it is right so to do. However, in the short to medium term, the Government do not intend to step back from their leadership role. Through the powers in the Bill, we will sustain our active engagement with the industry to ensure that any risks to meeting the 2020 deadline are identified and addressed as quickly as possible. I repeat what I said about hoping to have ongoing discussions with the noble Lord and others, but I hope that in the meantime he will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

I support this programme. It is very important that we have smart meters but, as the programme goes along, particularly because it depends on consumers taking up meters, we need to get this right. I hope that the Government can look seriously at the code of practice. Also, does the Minister think that the code of practice and Ofgem’s powers are strong enough to deal with this?

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, I do not profess to have huge knowledge of this subject. It is not an issue which I have researched recently.

When the original legislation went through—I refer to the role played by the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, in about, I think, 2006 or 2008—I spoke at great length during the course of the proceedings because I knew the subject. However, my questions on this occasion are simple and elementary.

When my service charge for my flat in London is issued every three months by the management company, it always shows the amount of water consumed by each flat in a list that is circulated to all members of the residents’ association—there are about 160 flats and a similar number of members—and therefore the occupants of flat 1 in my block will see how much water I use. I have always thought that was rather dangerous—depending into whose hands it fell—because from water consumption you can tell the scale of occupancy of the residents.

When I was having a chat with some colleagues and I saw Amendment 11, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Featherstone, in which paragraphs (a) and (b) of subsection (2) of the proposed new clause refer to,

“the risk of data obtained from consumers being stolen”,

and,

“the risk of data obtained being passed on to third parties without the consent of the consumer”,

I was left wondering what would happen with this 2G technology and how easy it would be to hack in and find out how much electricity is being used by the occupant of a particular flat or house. That is exactly the information that burglars, of all people, would want. I wonder to what extent these matters have been taken into account when deciding on the technology supplied. People have meters at the moment, but I do not know if there has been any research on whether this information is already being tapped into and given to people who would misuse it by breaking into people’s homes. Has any work been done to establish to what extent that might be a problem?

The Minister cannot have all the answers—I understand that—but if we are not aware today of the incidence of this information being abused, perhaps he could write to the members of the Committee about it because it is important. We are going into a new era with all this technology and I wonder whether it could be abused by people having that important information when they are seeking to burgle or interfere with other people’s properties.

[Lord Grantchester]

I support Amendments 6 and 11 which are also in this group. In Amendment 6, the noble Baroness, Lady Maddock, seeks a review of the code of practice energy suppliers must follow in the installation of smart meters. We agree with that as a necessary and constant reassessment of best practice should become part of any post-rollout review.

Similarly, Amendment 11, also in the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady Maddock and Lady Featherstone, calls for a review of the use of data from the operation of smart meters. I am grateful to them and my noble friend for highlighting some of the problems that could arise if we are not careful in this operation. We agree that it should be kept under constant review by the department to make sure that the risk of errors and non-compliance is kept to a minimum.

--- Later in debate ---

I hope that, with that assessment, the noble Baroness and others will agree that there are appropriate safeguards. I think that, with what I said on that and on the first amendment, the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, will be reasonably satisfied, but I offer to write if there is anything more I can say on that matter. Of course, I and no Government—indeed, no one—can give an absolute cast-iron guarantee that any smart meter cannot be hacked into because none of us knows what people will get up to. We also accept and acknowledge that information on any meter is something that could be of use to people outside. We want to make sure that the appropriate protections are in place while also making sure there is appropriate access.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

I ask a consumer question: if someone wanted to know now whether it was possible for their meter to be hacked, who would they ask? Who could tell them?

[Lord Henley]

The first people to ask would be the suppliers of that meter, to ask them what evidence they have and to take it from there. The same is true for any IT equipment that the noble Lord buys for any purpose. None of us can give any absolutely cast-iron guarantees as to what can and cannot be done by nefarious people.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

This is one of the reasons why the amendment asking for this sort of national plan would have been interesting. Those are the kinds of questions that the consumer would expect to find in a report of that nature. I would not ask my supplier; I would ask the manufacturer whether its equipment could be hacked. If it said that it could be, I would want assurances as to how that would be dealt with. I am not altogether convinced that manufacturers have been asked, or whether GCHQ has been asked that question for it to appraise separately. It is on the list; I presume it too has been asked about the system that is being introduced.

[Lord Henley]

The point I am making to the noble Lord is that it would be wrong for anyone to give an absolute cast-iron guarantee of any sort with equipment of this sort. I can think of a whole range of other questions on other subjects. I remember that it used to be said that if you went to a school and asked about its policy on bullying and were told there was no bullying, you should immediately reject that school because quite obviously it had no idea of what was going on. Similarly, if someone offered a cast-iron guarantee that their equipment was unhackable, I would have some doubts about it. They could say that they had done everything possible to make sure it was unhackable, but we have the right processes in place with suppliers and others to make sure that checks can be done—which is what I have set out—to make metering as secure as possible. In response to the noble Baroness, Lady Featherstone, who dealt with privacy, that is why we have also had consultations with the privacy commissioner. I think that we have all the appropriate checks in place—but if I offered the noble Lord the guarantee he is asking for, he would know that I was a charlatan.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

There is another question that would have been answered in this report. It is the question that the public ask all the time. If I have a supplier and I have a piece of equipment installed, will I be able to change supplier? Most people in this Room probably know the answer about retaining that equipment, but the great public outside do not know the answer, and that is what they worry about. So it is essential to the Government’s case to make it clear when and in what circumstances that problem will no longer arise.

[Lord Henley]

I fully understand what the noble Lord is saying and the need to provide the public with as much reassurance as possible, and clearly to explain the range of steps that the Government have taken with security experts, including GCHQ, which I mentioned earlier, to provide robust security for the smart metering system. We worked in partnership with GCHQ on the blog on smart metering infrastructure. We will continue to support Smart Energy GB, among others, to provide a clear and reassuring message to the public on smart metering security. We will do all we can. Everyone else will do all they can. All I am saying is that one can never get beyond that 99.9% security up to 100%.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, drew a distinction between transferability and interoperability. The question I am asking is what the public are asking. When will they be given assurances that it will be possible to change supplier and retain their smart meter? It is a very simple question, and I do not think you will find the answer anywhere at the moment as far as the public are concerned.

[Lord Henley]

The noble Lord is moving on to another question.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

This is one of the amendments.

[Lord Henley]

The noble Lord asked what assurance we can give to the public about security, and I think I have given as much assurance as I can. I acknowledge that it is important for the Government to continue to give as much assurance as possible. That is why we talked to GCHQ and others. With regard to changing supplier—is it changing the meter or changing supplier? They are two different matters.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

One is the consequence of the other, as I understand it. That is the problem. When you change your supplier, I understand that on occasion you have to change the meter. Am I not correct?

[Lord Teverson]

Unfortunately, probably after the First World War, the Second World War and the Korean War, the phoney war bit during the coalition Government was around the whole process more or less coming to a halt because this whole security issue came up, which was a major delaying factor at the time. I do not want to talk on behalf of the Government of that time, but security was given huge focus. From a personal point of view, I feel that that area has been dealt with enough at the moment. It clearly needs an ongoing security look, but it was one reason why the whole programme pretty much ground to a halt during part of the period of the coalition Government—if that is at all helpful.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Henley]

This is going back in history. The past is another country. I do not think I want to go there just for the moment. I do not know the answer to that. If I can find out more, I will certainly let the noble Baroness know.

The noble Baroness also raised the question of smart meters working with solar panels and spoke about the information she had received from one of her noble friends. As I understand it, all SMETS-compliant electricity meters must be capable of both measuring the amount of energy the household consumes or imports from the grid and recording the electricity generated by solar panels or other microgeneration technologies that is fed back or exported to the grid. We are not aware of any technical reasons why smart meters cannot be installed in premises with microgeneration technologies. However, some suppliers may start installing for these customers later in the rollout. If the noble Baroness would like to go back to her unnamed noble friend—perhaps it was not a noble friend, perhaps it was someone misleading the noble Baroness—and get back to me, I will take this up and find out what the real answer is. The initial response is that we feel that this should not be the case, but I will respond when the noble Baroness gives me more information.

Amendment 7 was spoken to by the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, and the noble Baroness, Lady Featherstone. The rollout of smart meters offers an opportunity for consumers to take control of their energy use and realise significant savings as soon as the meter is installed. Like any infrastructure project, the smart metering programme involves some investment, but it will enable a net reduction in consumers’ energy bills over time. Amendment 7 would give the Secretary of State power to modify licence conditions and industry codes so as to require energy suppliers to pass the savings they make from the rollout on to consumers.

We expect that competitive pressures will encourage energy suppliers to pass on the cost savings they make from the rollout of smart meters. If energy suppliers do not pass on the savings to their customers, their customers, as we all know, can switch to a better deal among an increasing number of competitors. As noble Lords will be aware, there is an increasing number of competitors and it is quite simple to switch. We recognise that the market is not working for all customers. That is why we have introduced to Parliament the Domestic Gas and Electricity (Tariff Cap) Bill—it is in another place at the moment—which will require Ofgem to set a cap that protects existing and future domestic customers who pay standard variable and default rates. The cap will last until 2020, and it may be extended annually, up until 2023, if it is assessed that the conditions for effective competition are not yet in place. In setting the cap, we expect Ofgem to take into account the benefits that energy suppliers will achieve from the rollout.

Smart meters are themselves an enabler to greater competition in the energy retail market. Smart meters provide near real-time information to consumers on their energy consumption and how much it is costing them, giving consumers greater awareness, which in turn is expected to further increase consumer switching. The signs on this are encouraging. According to a report on consumer engagement in the energy market, published by Ofgem in 2017, 23% of consumers who say they have a smart meter have switched supplier in the past 12 months, compared with 17% of those who say they do not have a smart meter. It is worth pointing out that we would expect the level of engagement from consumers to help inform Ofgem’s review into whether the conditions for effective competition are in place.

I turn now to the final two amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Teverson—Amendments 12 and 13. The Government want consumers to benefit as soon as possible from the advantages of smart meters. That is why we continually review the rollout and take action to remove any barriers to effective delivery. The amendments would require, as a condition of extending powers that the Secretary of State has to amend or introduce new regulation for the purposes of smart metering, one of two conditions are met first before those powers can commence. The noble Lord suggested either 500,000 second generation—SMETS 2—meters must have been installed or a review of the programme, focused on consumer satisfaction and value for money, must be complete. We do not believe that either of those conditions for commencing the extended regulatory powers are warranted or necessary. We are also concerned that the effect of those amendments would be to leave the Government without powers to intervene to unlock delivery barriers and ensure consumer benefits are being realised.

I will take each condition in turn. I shall deal, first, with the noble Lord’s SMETS 2 target of 500,000. Like the noble Lord, we want to see the SMETS 2 meter installation accelerated. It is very small at the moment, but in the near term this should happen only if it is in the best interests of consumers. Setting a target would remove suppliers’ flexibility to plan and manage the rollout efficiently in order to serve their customers effectively in a competitive market and could lead to unintended consequences. We are assured that larger energy suppliers have commercial and financial incentives to drive them to install SMETS 2 meters as soon as is practicable. SMETS 2 meters unlock more of the customer base, supporting more cost-effective marketing approaches. They also include capability for load control and additional support for consumer access devices, thereby supporting service offers in line with energy suppliers’ potential future business strategies. These incentives align with regulatory imperatives to make progress, not least that our current expectations are that from later this year the installation of SMETS 1 meters will no longer count towards an energy supplier’s rollout obligations. We intend to include in future quarterly statistical publications—subject to sufficient supplier anonymisation—information about the number of SMETS 2 meters that have been installed, allowing for progress to be tracked and transparent.

We agree with the noble Lord that the programme should understand its impact during operations, in terms of consumer satisfaction and value for money. As regards consumer satisfaction, the department commissions and receives, including via Smart Energy GB, regular survey updates on smart meter consumer satisfaction. I have referred to some of them, and the satisfaction levels that have been achieved. In terms of value for money, my right honourable friend the Minister for Business and Energy, Claire Perry, has committed, as part of the Bill’s passage in another place, to undertaking and publishing an updated cost-benefit analysis in 2019, which will reflect, among other things, the real benefit for consumers. On this basis, the noble Lord’s condition would be duplicative and risks undermining the powers that the Government need to ensure the rollout is progressed smoothly and in consumers’ best interests.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Can I just ask again a rather simple question? I understand that we are not the only country in Europe with a smart meter installation programme. The French claim that they have done it for half the price of the programme in the United Kingdom. They claim it is going to cost them €5.5 billion, whereas we are potentially spending £11 billion. Is there any truth in that? Is our equipment the same as what the French are introducing? Is there some explanation for this suggestion that we are paying rather a lot for our equipment?

[Lord Henley]

I do not necessarily take all claims from France as seriously as the noble Lord does. I will certainly have a look at that claim being made by the French, but I believe we are doing reasonably well. Obviously, I will have a look at what they are doing and, if there are things that we can learn from that, we should do so. Just as we will continue to monitor delivery in this country, we will study and look at what is happening abroad. I have received advice about what is happening and whether we are sharing our experience with other countries and whether other countries have shared their experience with us. We have looked not just at what is happening throughout Europe—we have met representatives from Ireland, Sweden, Spain, Malta and, I understand, France—but we have looked further afield to India, Australia and the United States. Lessons we have learned include the importance of consumer engagement. That is why I emphasised earlier what we have done on consumer engagement.

On the actual costs, the advice I have received is that the EU average comes in at £181, compared with our figure of around £155 for a single-fuel electricity installation. So that is somewhat lower. On that front we are doing better. If there is anything further I can add about gas distribution grids in Malta or Italy that might be of use or even of interest to the noble Lord, I will pass it on. Another matter that came up was a concern about privacy, which is something that the noble Lord is concerned about and we discussed earlier.

In conclusion, we will continue to monitor the delivery of the programme and will continue to provide updates in annual reports and an updated cost-benefit analysis. I do not think the amendments add much. They risk duplicating those processes and could result, as I said, in unintended consequences that might delay getting the benefits to the consumer. I hope, therefore, that the noble Baroness, Lady Maddock, will feel able to withdraw her amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Henley]

We are going ahead to SMETS 2. The noble Lord is right there. We will see benefits from that, just as we have seen benefits from SMETS 1. That process will continue. I am suggesting to noble Lords and the rest of the Committee that we will provide appropriate reports back as to how that goes in due course, but I cannot provide any figures on exactly how fast that is likely to go, particularly in the initial stage this year.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

I shall put it another way: what would happen if, having fitted 500,000, we found that there was a problem?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I do not believe in crossing bridges until we get to them. When we get to that stage, if there is a problem, I will come back to the noble Lord.

Companies (Disclosure of Address) (Amendment) Regulations 2018

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Monday 16th April 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, before commenting and asking some questions, I declare an interest in that I have been having personal communication with Companies House on an issue not unadjacent to this.

The Minister set out what we see as a pragmatic balance between what is practical and what is desirable—trying to balance what is needed to retain security and privacy while at the same time doing something that is both technically and administratively possible. For those reasons, we welcome the regulations. I have a couple of questions about the criteria and process for assessing applications within Companies House. Can the Minister give your Lordships’ House some idea of how the applications will be received and processed, and what criteria will be used to decide to remove a person’s private address and insert a holding address?

The Minister set out that a holding address would not be required for dissolved companies or directors who have stepped down. Would he consider a cooling-off period? After a company is dissolved, there is a period when its activity remains salient and therefore the activities of those past directors remain salient. Then there is a point at which, clearly, it is a dormant company and there is no fallout from its activities. A cooling-off period would be from the time at which the company is wound up until the time at which directors’ communications are removed.

It behoves me on these Benches to make the point that we still have a strong policy and we call for public registers of beneficial ownership to be extended to include British Overseas Territories. I understand that this SI does not necessarily cover that area, but I feel beholden to make that point. With those questions, we welcome the regulations.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, I have just a couple of questions. In the regulations under the title, “Effect of a section 1088 application”, paragraph 13(4) states:

“In any other case the registrar must make the specified address unavailable for public inspection by removing all elements of that address, except—(a) for a United Kingdom address— (i) the outward code from the postcode”.


The Minister referred to “leaving the first part of the postcode”. What is the relevance of keeping that first part? Why any part of the postcode?

My second question relates to the Explanatory Memorandum, which states:

“Amendments have also been made to the 2009 Regulations by regulation 3 to ensure that one of the grounds on which an individual is able to make an application under section 243 of the Companies Act 2006 (to prevent disclosure of their address by the registrar to credit reference agencies) is that they are or have been a constable”—


that is, a policeman. Why is a special category of persons defined here in the legislation? Why do constables have this exemption?

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for introducing this statutory instrument. He expressed a view on the last one that we were at the dawn of a new era of understanding and mutual support across the Chamber. I am afraid it has lasted only 10 minutes because this is not a particularly easy SI to support. I have one or two comments that will not fit into that category, for which I apologise in advance. Also, like the noble Lord, Lord Fox, I declare an interest as a former director of a former live company, so I will be caught by at least part of the regulations.

I wonder whether this instrument should be looked at carefully in terms of its standards. I have a number of comments to make, but it seems to be based on virtually no evidence at all. There has been no consultation and there is no impact statement, so we are looking at something that has been brought forward with little prior preparation and little detail around it. That reflects badly on the department in that this is an important area, and one that may receive more attention in the future, particularly because of the growth of the internet and so on, so we have to get it right. The regulations also seem—I would be grateful if the Minister could confirm this—to have been devised outside the ambit of the Data Protection Bill. The Bill is still in the other place but it will shortly become law. It covers a large number of areas that would otherwise have been picked up in this statutory instrument; indeed, in one respect it may be otiose.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I am sorry that we could not continue with the same attitude as we had to the previous order, other than in relation to the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson. I am grateful that the noble Lord, Lord Fox, described this as a pragmatic balance. That is exactly what we have tried to achieve in providing protection for the individual but still making sure that certain public things continue to be public.

The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, objected to the lack of consultation for something as important as this, saying that there was a lack of consultation and a lack of an impact statement. I will write to him in further detail on the lack of consultation but I assure him that we have received a number of inquiries— around 3,000, I am told. As the Minister who deals with letters from Members of another place on their constituents’ concerns, I have had to sign a number of letters relating to their concerns over not being able to get something removed. It is depressing that I often have to say, “I’m terribly sorry, there is nothing we can do at this stage”, so I was grateful that we could do something quickly and without the necessary consultation. Since individual companies are not required to do anything—or stop doing anything—an impact statement is not necessary. All the regulations do is give people the option of applying to have residential address information suppressed, if they so choose. There is no impact on Companies House, as the application fee will cover the costs of processing the application. In those circumstances, an impact assessment—whether coloured in for the noble Lord or in black and white—is not necessary.

The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, picked up on the problem with microfiches. I understand that deleting something from a microfiche can affect it. Now that one can move things on to CDs, the process is somewhat easier, but the important thing is that the microfiches will be kept. From a historical point of view, we will still keep records from the past. I will write to him in greater detail about public authorities and how they get appropriate authority, but that will not change as a result of this order. The issue—the mere fact that it comes in immediately—does not affect companies and there will be no burden, so the lack of a commencement date is not a problem. As always, I note what the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, said about the desirability of sticking to common commencement dates and will try to stick to that in future.

The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, asked rather a technical question about the category relating to constables in a police force. Under Regulation 5 of the 2009 regulations, on disclosing a residential address to a credit reference agency, one of the grounds for applying to the registrar is that a person is or has been employed by a police force. We are concerned that this may not cover constables because they are technically officeholders rather than employees. The draft regulations merely make it clear that police constables may apply to prevent disclosure under Regulation 5.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Why would they want that exemption?

[Lord Henley]

That would be a matter for the police constables themselves. It would probably be best, rather than ad-libbing an answer, if I wrote in greater detail to the noble Lord on that point.

Finally, the noble Lord, Lord Fox, asked about the criteria to be used by Companies House in considering this. The regulations merely allow a person to apply to have their residential address and information suppressed without having to give any reason. The criteria are not relevant in this case; they do not have to give a reason for their application, whereas in the past they did. That therefore simplifies matters and, I hope, continues to meet that pragmatic balance that the noble Lord so warmly welcomed. I hope that deals with all the points that were made.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

I drew attention to half a postcode being published.

[Lord Henley]

I will possibly add this to my response to the noble Lord, but I suspect that giving half a postcode provides, as it were, some information without giving details. In other words, if someone added CA6 to my name one would know that I lived somewhere not so far from the noble Lord in Cumberland, but it would not say precisely where I live because it would not give the address. As the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, said, there are other ways of finding out people’s addresses. We are just trying to provide appropriate protection.

Energy: Home Battery Storage

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Monday 4th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, at this stage, I do not want to get into the wider question of Hinkley C costs. I think it would be rather dangerous for me to go down that route. My noble friend is right to say that increased use of home battery storage, possible greater use of batteries in cars as a means of storage in years to come and greater use of other forms of storage, which the noble Baroness and my noble friend referred to—he is probably aware that we already have about 5 gigawatts of storage in the system, which is mainly pumped hydroelectricity—have implications for costs throughout the grid, which will need to be addressed.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

Has an audit been carried out of lithium resources worldwide or has it all been left to market forces?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, so far, we have seen the cost of lithium-ion batteries drop by some 50% over the last five years, since 2012. That implies that resources of lithium are more or less okay and that market forces are driving costs down. I do not have the figures on long-term estimates of quantities of lithium, but that will be taken into account by the market in due course.

Businesses: Start-ups

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Monday 20th November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

I am grateful to my noble friend for quoting all the figures that I would have wanted to put before the House, and I thoroughly endorse his doing so. I am also grateful to him for bringing the attention of the House to Rishi Sunak’s report, A New Era for Retail Bonds, which I am aware of. He would not expect me to comment on it in detail at this stage, but it is certainly interesting and the Government will certainly want to have a look at it.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, is not reference to 660,000 start-up companies and this entrepreneurial revolution peddling a myth when a large chunk of that number is made up of personal service companies, the objective of which is to save tax and save on national insurance contributions? Why peddle these myths?

[Lord Henley]

The noble Lord is overcynical. It is quite obvious from all the figures we have, whether we take them from Companies House or wherever, that a large number of new companies are coming into existence. My noble friend quoted the other figures, which show just how well they are doing, and how well compared to other countries throughout Europe. The noble Lord should welcome that and be grateful that entrepreneurship flourishes in this country because the Government create the right environment for it.

Small Businesses: Late Payments

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Monday 11th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Prior of Brampton]

My Lords, the noble Lord makes a very good point. Small companies are often reticent to take on big ones, in the fear that they will lose business in the future. Making that relationship easier is one of the reasons why we are appointing the Small Business Commissioner. Where public contracts are involved, we have a mystery shopping service, which enables small companies to ask the Government, on their behalf, to verify late payment and understand why it is taking place.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, this argument has been going on, under successive Governments, for the last 30 years at least. Where is the real resistance to change and intervention by government coming from? Nothing ever changes.

[Lord Prior of Brampton]

My Lords, there is a natural reluctance for any Government to get in between supplier and customer in commercial relationships. If there is a problem, it is much better if it can be sorted out. As my noble friend Lord Hamilton pointed out, there are ways of getting redress. I am not sure what the figures are, but I imagine that, going back 30 years, you would find that the average number of days outstanding for commercial debts has come down considerably.

Product Recall

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Monday 23rd January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Prior of Brampton]

My Lords, I bow to my noble friend’s expertise on the subject of laundry but there is no doubt that the instructions on these machines talk about cleaning the filters and removing the lint from the filters. That is clearly important. However, there is a problem in this particular machine that does require modification. There is no doubt that if everyone registered the product when they bought it, many of the recall problems that we are facing would be addressed. But only 47% of those who buy these tumble-dryers actually register the machine in the first place.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, how does the Minister respond to the idea of a single register of UK product recalls, as proposed by Andy Slaughter MP in an Early Day Motion in the other place?

[Lord Prior of Brampton]

My Lords, there is no doubt that recall can be improved and this issue is being considered by the working group, which has given its interim findings to my honourable friend in the other House, Margot James. It is due to give its final report in March, when we will be able to respond more fully to the noble Lord’s question.

Green Investment Bank

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Thursday 12th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Prior of Brampton]

On the latter question of whether the bank may invest overseas, I understand that it is already considering projects in India and east Africa. One purpose of introducing private capital into the Green Investment Bank is to give it more flexibility to develop the business in future.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

The question of the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, was about the possibility of the bank being broken up for profit-taking. Is that possible, or will it remain completely intact?

[Lord Prior of Brampton]

My Lords, no business would say that it will be intact for ever. Interestingly, the Green Investment Bank manages an investment fund of £800 million. It is the biggest investment fund in the renewable sector in the UK. It has a whole series of investments in that fund, and of course some will be sold in future.