Northern Ireland: Legacy of the Troubles

Debate between Lord Caine and Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick

Tuesday 7th May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Caine (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend, who has vast experience of Northern Ireland matters. He makes a number of extremely important points regarding the role of successive Irish Governments during the Troubles. On the interstate case, the Government profoundly regret the decision of the Irish Government to bring this unnecessary and unhelpful case against the UK, particularly when these matters are likely to be dealt with by the domestic courts long before the case ever reaches Strasbourg. For many families, effective information recovery will require the co-operation of the Irish authorities, and the Government therefore encourage the Irish Government to co-operate fully with the new commission to help provide information to families who want it.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree about the importance of adherence to the rule of law, and that the legacy Act is considered by many to violate the principle of the rule of law? In view of the various legacy cases, judgments and pending cases, what action will the Government take to ensure that victims and survivors are protected through the repeal of this legislation, in particular the immunity provisions, which have caused immense consternation throughout the wider community in Northern Ireland?

[Lord Caine (Con)]

My Lords, while I completely respect the views of the noble Baroness, I do not share her characterisation of the legislation. She will be aware that the High Court in Belfast, in its recent judgment, found that the new legacy body, the independent commission, would be able to operate independently of government, and would be able to carry out fully effective Article 2-compliant investigations. It also found that the disclosure obligations on the state meant that the new body is likely to be more effective than the current mechanisms in providing information and answers to victims and survivors.

Local Elections (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) Order 2024

Debate between Lord Caine and Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick

Monday 26th February 2024 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Lord Caine) (Con)]

This statutory instrument, and the Representation of the People (Postal Vote Handling etc.) (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) Regulations 2024, were laid before your Lordships House on 10 January. They flow from the Elections Act 2022 and deliver on the Government’s manifesto commitment to stop “postal vote harvesting”: the dubious practice of collecting large numbers of postal votes to be returned by someone other than the voter to whom the ballot paper is issued. One instrument applies these measures to parliamentary and Northern Ireland Assembly elections in Northern Ireland, and the second to local elections. The equivalent measures for Great Britain have, of course, already been passed by this Parliament.

These statutory instruments will set a limit on how many postal votes any one individual can directly “hand in” to the returning officer, and complement other Elections Act provisions protecting the integrity of the absent vote process. These include banning political campaigners handling postal votes issued to another person, and ensuring the secrecy of absent voting. One of the instruments also contains some technical amendments relating to the changes to EU voting and candidacy rights, which I will touch upon later.

I will set out the measures related to limiting handing in postal votes in more detail. Currently, there are no restrictions on who may hand in postal votes and how many may be handed in by any single person, and no record of who has done so. This is not acceptable because it creates opportunities for unscrupulous individuals to undermine the integrity of postal voting. For example, voters could be coerced into handing over their unmarked ballot paper, or completed ballots could be tampered with out of sight of the voter before being returned. Even if they are acting legitimately, where individuals are seen to be handing in significant numbers of postal votes in one go, it can easily create the perception and suspicion of impropriety, which can be damaging to confidence in the electoral system. Retaining public confidence in the democratic systems of our country is, of course, critically important.

We are therefore intent on striking the right balance between being mindful of security, keeping the electoral process accessible and ensuring that confidence in our electoral systems is reinforced. Under these regulations, a person, in addition to their own postal vote, will be able to hand in the postal votes of up to five other electors, including any for whom they are acting as proxy. We consider this a reasonable limit that will support the integrity of postal voting.

In Northern Ireland, postal votes can be handed in at the electoral office. Unlike in Great Britain, where postal votes may be returned to the polling station, in Northern Ireland handing in postal votes at polling stations has never been permitted. This prohibition will not change as a result of these measures. A person handing in postal votes will be required to complete a form setting out basic information. Where the forms are not completed, those, and those in excess of the limit, apart from the person’s own, will be rejected. Any postal votes that have been left behind in the electoral office without an accompanying form, including those posted through or pushed under the front door, will not be counted as they will not have been returned in accordance with these requirements.

The new forms make these changes clear to the voter. In addition, the rules will be published as widely as possible by both the Electoral Commission and the chief electoral officer. After the poll, the chief electoral officer will, where possible, write to the persons whose postal votes have been rejected under these requirements to notify them that their vote was rejected, and the reasons for that.

The regulations before us today also make some small changes in relation to EU voting and candidacy rights. The Representation of the People (Franchise Amendment and Eligibility Review) (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2023 implemented changes to the previously automatic right of EU citizens to vote and stand in elections. These regulations amend those 2023 regulations, so that where the eligibility of EU citizens to remain on the register has been reviewed, duplicate notices do not have to be issued.

Additionally, where an election is originally scheduled to take place before the franchise changes come into force, but following the death of a candidate the poll is rescheduled for a date after the changes, these measures will ensure that candidates and registered EU citizens remain eligible to stand and hold office at that poll.

I hope noble Lords agree that these measures are sensible safeguards against the potential abuse of absent voting and will reduce the opportunity for individuals to exploit the process. I hope that, following my setting out the details of these statutory instruments, the Committee will appreciate their careful and considered design for supporting absent voters. I beg to move.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his presentation of the facts concerning both statutory instruments. I declare an interest in two respects: first, as a member of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee of your Lordships’ House; and secondly, as a participant in elections in Northern Ireland for the past 43 years, either as a candidate or as a party worker. In all those elections, I was well aware that postal votes provided the elderly, the infirm, students and those on holiday with the opportunity to vote by post or by proxy. I welcome legislative efforts to protect postal and postal proxy voting arrangements, because there was no doubt that there was actual fraud, as I saw for myself. I saw it in the last election in which I was a participant, and whenever I failed to get re-elected as the MP for South Down. There is no doubt that electoral fraud took place in the polling place and through postal votes, through a large degree of postal vote harvesting. We saw people going into the electoral office with hundreds of completed ballot papers in the prescribed envelopes, duly certified by a family member.

I have always been afraid that there might be those who seek to steal postal votes, particularly from the infirm, in order to seek electoral advantage. We have heard many examples of that, so I am pleased that legislative action is being taken. However, what legislative action will the Government take to protect the polling place itself at parliamentary, Assembly and local government elections in Northern Ireland, in order to protect voters and prevent vote stealing? People who had perhaps not voted in previous elections, and who turned up to vote in the 2017 parliamentary election and were definitely on the register, discovered at 6 or 7 o’clock that evening that their votes had already been cast by somebody else.

There needs to be some legislative means to protect the polling place, both inside and outside, because in some places voters are subject to constant haranguing by party workers; indeed, we have all been victims of that. What can be done to ensure that photographic identities are protected and cannot be copied or photoshopped, as must have been the case in the instance to which I referred?

I would also like to know from the Minister whether discussions took place with the Electoral Office of Northern Ireland and the Electoral Commission before these instruments were made. If they did, what was the view of both organisations? In addition, are the Government confident that there will be full access to the franchise through this legislative means for those who are elderly, those on holiday, and for students, and that there will not be any denial of the franchise or any means of obviating these new legislative measures? We have seen examples of that.

Whenever the ballots are open to party political workers some few days before the actual polling place is open, will those workers have an opportunity to be informed of the number of postal votes issued, the number delivered, and the number rejected because they did not have the proper accompanying identification with them?

In any event, and in conclusion, I welcome the instruments as they stand and as they relate to the protection of the franchise in council and Assembly elections.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Caine (Con)]

Of course; I apologise to the noble Lord. In Northern Ireland, all electoral delivery is the responsibility of the chief electoral officer and his staff. Local authorities in Northern Ireland are not involved in that at all. I can assure the noble Lord that we are working closely with the chief electoral officer to identify the specific impact of each of these measures and that any additional resource will be kept under review in that context.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

I asked about the reconciliation of postal votes, which happens about three days before polling day in electoral offices. One party-political worker from each party goes along to that and the postal ballots are opened. Will there be a register showing how many postal ballots were submitted, and those that were rejected and accepted?

[Lord Caine (Con)]

That is my understanding. As I outlined in my speech, where votes have been rejected, the electoral officer will write to the individuals concerned to let them know why, where possible.

That probably covers most of what was raised in the discussion. I commend these instruments to the Committee.

Northern Ireland: Industrial Action

Debate between Lord Caine and Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick

Wednesday 17th January 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Caine (Con)]

My noble friend will be aware that MLAs’ pay has already been reduced by 27%. I assure him that this is a matter that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State keeps under constant review.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, public sector workers in Northern Ireland demand pay parity with their colleagues right across the UK, and are undoubtedly justified in that demand, but they have been penalised because of a lack of local government in Northern Ireland. Does the Minister agree that it is now high time for the DUP to return to Stormont and ensure that the institutions that we all voted for in 1998 are up and running, reflecting the political togetherness of everybody, rather than dancing on the pin of political purism?

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick, for her question. She is aware, and I have stated this a number of times from this Dispatch Box, that since April 1998 I have always been a strong supporter of the Belfast agreement and the institutions that it established. I entirely agree with her that the right thing to do is to restore the Northern Ireland Executive with immediate effect.

Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Bill

Debate between Lord Caine and Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick

Consideration of Commons amendments
Tuesday 5th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for taking my intervention. In that same article in the Irish News there was a subheading which indicated that the staff to assist Sir Declan would come from the Northern Ireland Office. Can the Minister confirm that this is correct and, if so, how will it address the issue of independence of the commission?

[Lord Caine (Con)]

There are officials from the Northern Ireland Office assisting with the establishment of the body, but the staffing of the body will be entirely for the commission itself; it is not a matter for the Northern Ireland Office. The legislation is not yet passed, so the commission will not formally come into being until next year. All that is happening is that officials from my department are helping with the establishment during that transition phase.

As I said, this has taken on something of a Second Reading debate. We have heard many points rehearsed extensively. Therefore, I conclude by asking noble Lords not to insist on Motions A1 and B1 but instead to agree with the Commons amendments in lieu under Motions A, B and C, and pass this Bill; that is the clear will of the elected House of Commons. I beg to move.

Relationships and Sexuality Education (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) Regulations 2023

Debate between Lord Caine and Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick

Wednesday 28th June 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I do not have the Hansard from June or July 2019 in front of me but the amendment was very clear in the obligations that it placed on the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland to introduce CEDAW-compliant regulations, which are now enshrined in statute.

I was about to go on to the major themes of the debate, which is why the laying of the regulations was not preceded by a public consultation—a criticism made by many noble Lords this afternoon and contained in the report of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. A number of factors led the Northern Ireland Office to the conclusion that a public consultation was not required in this instance. First, the CEDAW recommendation—I repeat: under the executive formation Act, the Secretary of State has a duty to implement it—is clear that it requires topics such as abortion and contraception to be compulsory components of the curriculum. That is what these regulations will introduce; no amount of public consultation will change the statutory requirement to comply with CEDAW.

While we are on that, the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick, asked me about the number of stakeholders that the Northern Ireland Office had discussed. I will just read out one or two of the organisations. There was Love for Life, Common Use, Amnesty, the National Society for the Protection of Young People, the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission, the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland, the Alliance for Choice and Parentkind.

Secondly, my department conducted an equality assessment under Section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998, in consultation with the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland, and concluded that there was no need for the NIO to consult publicly as it is actually for the Department for Education to issue the guidance on how these issues are taught in schools and for monitoring and collecting any equality data.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

The Minister has highlighted the various organisations that were consulted as stakeholders. Does the Northern Ireland Office not consider schools and their governing bodies across the board to be required stakeholders? If so, why were they not considered? Is that not a level of disrespect?

[Lord Caine (Con)]

If the noble Baroness will forgive me, I shall address that issue in a second or two.

Thirdly, we were also informed by the Department of Education in a briefing paper that significant stakeholder consultation haud taken place on the RSE Progression Framework that it has been developing with the Council for the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment over a number of years. This is the document that will be updated and used as guidance issued by the department.

Although the current law and circumstances dictate that it falls to the Northern Ireland Office that CEDAW-compliant RSE is a compulsory part of the curriculum, it is rightly for the Department of Education in Northern Ireland to take that requirement forward. In that context, I can inform noble Lords that the Department of Education has now assured us that it aims to launch a public consultation on both the guidance and the opt-out scheme at the beginning of the 2023-24 academic year—that is, in September—to meet the duty to issue guidance by 1 January 2024.

Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Bill

Debate between Lord Caine and Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick

Report stage
Wednesday 21st June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Caine (Con)]

My Lords, at Second Reading I committed to carrying out extensive engagement, which has just been recognised by the noble Lord and the noble Baroness—and I hope it is recognised more widely across the House that this is exactly what I have done. The amendments that I am bringing forward in this group seek to take on board and respond to a number of concerns raised in the House and elsewhere, as far as possible.

The Government remain committed to delivering better outcomes for those most affected by the Troubles by providing more information in a more timely manner to more people than is possible under current mechanisms. This is a hugely difficult task, and the legislation—as I have admitted both in this House and in the media—requires some finely balanced political and moral choices that are challenging for many, myself included. We must be realistic about what we can deliver. I have reflected on how we can strengthen the Bill and I am thankful for the many conversations that I have had on this, including with the Commissioner for Victims and Survivors in Northern Ireland, Ian Jeffers. While we have our differences, I am grateful for the way in which he has always conducted our meetings. It is widely recognised that the current mechanisms for addressing legacy issues provide satisfactory outcomes to very few of those affected, leaving far too many victims and families—including many of those who died while serving the state—empty-handed.

Amendments 2, 3 and 7 to Clause 2 in my name place the commission, when exercising its functions, under a duty to have regard to the general interests of persons affected by Troubles-related deaths and serious injuries. These amendments also provide that, in exercising its functions, the commission’s principal objective is to promote reconciliation. It is our view that putting more information in the public domain via an effective information recovery process, subject to the exceptions set out in Clause 4, will help to do that. These amendments seek to strengthen our commitment to victims, provide greater direction to the commissioner and respond to the debate in Committee, where your Lordships raised concerns over the extent to which the commission would take a victim-centred approach to its work.

Amendment 85 will place the commissioner under a new duty to offer victims and their families the opportunity to submit personal impact statements setting out how they have been affected by a Troubles-related death or serious injury. Amendment 86 creates a corresponding duty to publish those statements, subject to limited exceptions. This will give families a voice in the process. As the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, put it in Committee:

“Without that, this will be one of the biggest failures of the Bill”.—[Official Report, 31/1/23; col. 646.]


That is something that we are attempting to rectify. The new duty corresponds to recommendations made by the Commissioner for Victims and Survivors, Ian Jeffers, and is complemented by a separate duty to publish the statement if the individual so wishes. I am also grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, for raising this amendment in Committee.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his explanation of the amendments in this group about making the Bill more victim-centred. Undoubtedly, the most important people in all this are the victims. Many of them have passed on and their families—some of whom have passed on, through the passage of time—have not seen justice and truth: the very things they were looking for. I acknowledge what both the Minister and my noble friend Lord Murphy said, on the summer solstice, the longest day of the year, which is the day that victims of the Troubles in Northern Ireland are remembered.

In relation to Amendment 2, can the Minister, in his wind-up, explain the practical application of the amendment on the operation of the ICRIR. How will the amendment really promote reconciliation in the exercise of those functions, given that the Bill has been opposed by legal representatives, such as the European Council of Ministers, political representatives from the Irish Government and all the political parties in Northern Ireland, and the victims and survivors—a wide spectrum?

Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Act 2007 (Extension of Duration of Non-jury Trial Provisions) Order 2023

Debate between Lord Caine and Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick

Monday 5th June 2023 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Lord Caine) (Con)]

My Lords, under this draft order, which was laid before this House on 24 April, trials without a jury can take place in Northern Ireland where the statutory conditions are met for a further two years, until 31 July 2025. The current provisions will expire on 31 July this year. Following a public consultation, and after consideration of the wider security situation in Northern Ireland, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State considers it necessary to seek an extension to these provisions to ensure the continued safe administration of justice in specific cases.

I am keenly aware that this is the eighth extension of these powers since they came into operation in 2007. I hope that noble Lords will be assured of the continued necessity of these provisions for a further two years. This decision was made carefully and informed by a detailed public consultation process, as well as by the work of the non-jury trial working group. This group was established following recommendations by the former Independent Reviewer of the Justice and Security Act, Mr David Seymour CB, and is composed of representatives from the Public Prosecution Service for Northern Ireland, the Police Service of Northern Ireland, the Court Service, the Bar, the Law Society and other independent organisations.

The group has worked to produce detailed reports for the independent reviewer and to develop a set of indicators to assist the Secretary of State in determining whether these non-jury trial provisions remain necessary. The indicators include assessments of the current levels of paramilitary activity and intimidation in Northern Ireland. In conjunction with the consultation responses, the Secretary of State considered these and reached the determination that they further demonstrate that it would not be appropriate to remove the non-jury trial provisions at this time.

I am of course keenly aware of the disappointment that many noble Lords across the House will feel that the security situation today necessitates a further extension of these provisions. We should not, however, lose sight of the real progress that has been made since the dark days of the so-called Troubles. Today, there is a strong presumption of jury trial in Northern Ireland, and in 2021 only 0.6% of all Crown Court cases were conducted without a jury; that is, eight out of 1,358. By contrast, at the peak of the Diplock court system in the mid-1980s, there were more than 300 such cases per year.

Under the provisions of the 2007 Act, non-jury trials are reserved for use only in exceptional cases where the Director of Public Prosecutions for Northern Ireland deems it to be necessary. As correctly stated on 23 May in the other place by the spokesperson for the Official Opposition:

“The provision for non-jury trials is a little-used but vital tool in ensuring the administration of justice”.—[Official Report, Commons, Delegated Legislation Committee, 23/5/23; col. 6.]


I agree with that statement.

As I know noble Lords will appreciate, these proportionate measures remain necessary to safeguard against risks such as juror intimidation and juror bias in an extremely small number of cases. A non-jury trial may be permitted if the defendant is associated with a proscribed organisation or if the offence being tried is in connection with religious or political hostility. Such cases are high profile and continue to provoke strong public opinion on both sides of the community.

Like their predecessors, this Government remain committed to bringing an end to these provisions when it is safe and compatible with the interests of justice to do so. We firmly believe, however, that now is not the time to take this step.

As demonstrated by the recent increase in the threat level to “severe” and the abhorrent attack on DCI John Caldwell in February, a small number of people in Northern Ireland continue to try to destabilise the political situation through acts of terrorist violence. Their activity causes harm to individuals and communities across Northern Ireland.

Despite courageous work by the Police Service of Northern Ireland and others across the community in Northern Ireland, terrorist and paramilitary groups continue to exert influence and control in communities where they operate. In the year 2021-22 there were 163 recorded offences of intimidation or threats to harm witnesses, and 170 households were accepted as homeless due to intimidation in 2022. These are facts that we cannot ignore.

It would be counterintuitive to believe that the same issues faced by witnesses would not be replicated should they be asked to sit as a juror in these cases. Furthermore, the most recent results from the Northern Ireland Life and Times survey in 2022 found that 17% of respondents believed that paramilitary groups create fear and intimidation in their area.

I trust noble Lords will agree that the safety of the people in Northern Ireland and the administration of justice are paramount. The Government remain committed to working strategically with security partners to tackle the threat from Northern Ireland-related terrorism and to support the Northern Ireland Executive’s programme to tackle paramilitary activity. However, we are not prepared to put the safety of individuals or the administration of justice at risk and believe that there has not been sufficient change in the security situation over the last two years to demonstrate that the non-jury trial provisions are no longer required.

In conclusion, I am sure that I can count on the support of noble Lords across the Committee for the Government’s work to safeguard the administration of justice and to normalise all security arrangements as soon as it is safe to do so. On that basis, I beg to move.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his presentation of the SI. I declare an interest as a member of your Lordships’ Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee.

Some 29 years after the ceasefires and 25 years since the Good Friday agreement, it is worrying that there is still a need for an extension of such a power. Although I am not personally opposed to this legislation, I feel that non-jury trials should be an exception rather than the rule. I think the Minister characterised it in that light in his presentation, but I want to know how many such trials took place last year. We have the figure for 2021 in the Explanatory Memorandum but not for 2022.

The Minister gave us the indicators. We probably could have guesstimated those anyway.

We know that the threat level was increased on 28 March this year to “severe”, due to the increased level of dissident republican activity. As the Minister referred to, we had the threatened murder of DCI Caldwell. I am glad to see that he is making a recovery, having been released from hospital and having had some time at home. In fact, he was able to attend the garden party last week at Hillsborough, which showed an improvement in his physical health. I hope he makes enormous strides in that respect.

Only a few days ago, we witnessed on our TV screens and social media an alleged taxi driver taking a gun to a client. He was sacked from his job, although I understand he was not necessarily acting for that firm at the time. Notwithstanding that, he was apparently acting as a drug enforcer for one of the paramilitary organisations in Northern Ireland.

Some 29 years since the ceasefires, the public in Northern Ireland want an end to such paramilitary and criminal activity; they have had enough of it. They do not want to be brought to heel by such paramilitary organisations and criminal gangs; they want to see an end to it. If this debate does anything, it will tell those people, “Get off the backs of the people of Northern Ireland”. We are sick, sore and tired of it, and we want to live in peace and harmony. We want to see the restoration of our political institutions, which, I hope, will be able to help foster economic opportunity for us all.

Related to this is the legacy Bill, which the Minister is also involved in. I know that on the Bill’s last day in Committee he referred to game-changing government amendments. When will they be published? I hope that he is not as surprised as the expression on his face suggests. I want to know when they will be available and what they will cover. Will they enable access to inquests and inquiries? Will they be compatible with the ECHR?

In conclusion, although I do not have a strong aversion to this SI and I generally support it, I hope that it will be the exception to the rule. There could very well be a further extension, depending on terrorist and paramilitary activity in 2025, but I hope that we are looking to bright, fresher new days where terrorism will definitely be a thing of the past and we will not need this type of legislation.

Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Bill

Debate between Lord Caine and Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick

Committee stage
Thursday 11th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Caine (Con)]

As I just made clear in my remarks, the appointment is as chief commissioner-designate, and the formal appointment will not take place until after Royal Assent. That will take into account any further considerations that the House will have upon this legislation. It is important to enable the work of the commissioner to start now in order that, once Royal Assent is—I hope—received, the commission’s work can begin without delay.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

Further to the question from the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, could the Minister indicate in more detail the functions that Sir Declan Morgan will undertake in this interim period before Royal Assent is given?

[Lord Caine (Con)]

As I just said, the Secretary of State is laying a Written Ministerial Statement today which should be available very shortly, and I refer the noble Baroness to it for further detail on that.

Windsor Framework

Debate between Lord Caine and Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick

Tuesday 7th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I am very grateful to my noble friend for his supplementary. I do apologise that I cannot give him a definitive number at this stage. He will appreciate that I am not an expert in EU law, and I have no intention of becoming one, but my understanding is that the situation is somewhat more complex than just adding together a list. There will of course be some directives that are in part still applied, in respect, for example, of the red channel, and disapplied in respect of the green channel. But I can assure him that, for example, with annexe 1 of the EU regulations covering SPS rules to accommodate Northern Ireland—I have it here—67 EU rules are now disapplied. I will take back what he said about trying to publish a definitive list, but, as I say, the situation is slightly more complicated than just adding together one list.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, how much of the legislation attached to the Windsor Framework has been written? What is the process for its drafting. Will the Irish Government and the Northern Ireland parties be consulted? Have any of them already been consulted regarding the drafting?

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her question. She will be aware that the legislation is still being drafted. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State spoke to Northern Ireland parties over the weekend, officials engaged with Northern Ireland parties yesterday and there will be more such engagement from my right honourable friend and officials later this week. That process is ongoing and we do wish to bring forward the required legislation as soon as necessary. The noble Baroness mentioned the role of the Irish Government; of course, we keep in close contact with the Irish Government, but I think it is very important that we observe the constitutional proprieties on this matter, given that these are strand 1 issues and internal to the United Kingdom Parliament.

Stormont Brake

Debate between Lord Caine and Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick

Thursday 2nd March 2023 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Lord Caine) (Con)]

My Lords, the Stormont brake gives the Northern Ireland Assembly a powerful new safeguard. If the brake is pulled, the United Kingdom can veto new EU goods laws that would have significant lasting effects on the everyday lives of the people of Northern Ireland. The brake has been introduced by fundamentally rewriting the dynamic alignment provisions of the treaty; that is a permanent change and ends the automatic ratchet of EU law.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for that Answer but, for absolute clarity, would the brake be exercised when 30 MLAs sign a petition of concern, or would it be subject to a further vote in the Assembly on a cross-community basis? When will we see the legal text showing how the brake will operate in practice—or has it already been prepared and shown to others?

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness. Of course, she and I both served on the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, and she continues to serve on the European Affairs Committee’s Sub-Committee on the Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland. As far back as our first report, we highlighted the problems created by the democratic deficit in Northern Ireland, which the Government’s proposals now seek to address.

The noble Baroness asked some specific questions about the process. Of course, the Command Paper and supporting documentation set out the framework. There are some details that are yet to be filled in and will be dealt with in legislation; they will follow consultations with the Northern Ireland parties, which my right honourable friend the Northern Ireland Secretary intends to begin almost immediately.

Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Bill

Debate between Lord Caine and Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick

Committee stage
Tuesday 24th January 2023 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Lord Caine) (Con)]

Well, my Lords, I said at Second Reading that I was well aware that this legislation had been met with far from universal acclamation, and, if I may say so, the last hour and seven minutes has reminded me of that in spades.

A number of noble Lords were kind enough to reference my role in this legislation. I am particularly grateful to my noble friend Lord Cormack and a former Secretary of State, the noble Lord, Lord Hain. I think one suggested that had it been my Bill it might have been slightly different. That may or may not be the case, but I tried to assure the House at Second Reading that I was committed to working with noble Lords on all sides and to continue engaging with groups outside Northern Ireland to see what could be done to improve the legislation in line with the proper constitutional functions of your Lordships’ House that the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, reminded us of. That is what I have sought to do.

The noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, in moving her amendment—I hope it was inadvertent—cast some doubt on the level of engagement, and the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, referred to it. I can only say that, since the end of July, I have done over 30 meetings—frankly, I have lost count—on legacy with political parties in Northern Ireland, Members of your Lordships’ House, victims’ groups and others. Those meetings have always been frank and candid, and I have sought to listen and take on board as many points as I can. I will continue that engagement and, indeed, I will be doing more such meetings in Northern Ireland next week. That has been a genuine attempt to fulfil the promises I made at Second Reading. Again in response to the noble and right reverend Lord, whom I hold in the highest regard—he is a man of great principle and has made a huge contribution in Northern Ireland over many decades—I say that I believe that the amendments I have brought forward are a reflection of the promises I gave at Second Reading. I am very happy to sit down, at any time, with the noble and right reverend Lord to go through those amendments, but we will be debating them anyway, I hope, at a later stage.

I understand the motive behind the noble Baroness’s amendment. I have long had sympathy with the notion that the Northern Ireland Assembly should have greater involvement in these matters. It was always the position, for many years, that addressing the legacy of the past should be owned and tackled primarily by Northern Ireland’s elected representatives. Some of us remember—it was not that long ago—10 years ago, when the Northern Ireland Executive invited Richard Haass, along with Meghan O’Sullivan, in the aftermath of the flags protest and difficulties over disputed parades, to address the issue of flags, parading and the past. That initiative was driven by the Northern Ireland Executive, supported by the parties in the Assembly. Unfortunately, as with other attempts to deal with these very difficult issues, that process did not find a consensus, and 12 months later, we found ourselves at Stormont House trying to deal with the same issues.

The noble Baronesses, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick and Lady O’Loan, referred to the Stormont House agreement. At the risk of repeating what I said at Second Reading, I was in the room, as it were, for all but a few hours—time off for good behaviour—for about 11 weeks of that entire process. The level of consensus reached there has always been exaggerated. I can well remember the spokesman for the noble Baroness’s former party, the SDLP, opposing just about every line on legacy—she is smiling because she knows to whom I refer—in that agreement as “a dilution” of Haass-O’Sullivan, which was itself a dilution of Eames-Bradley. So the SDLP was not exactly oversold on it. I do not see the noble Lord, Lord Empey, in his place, but the noble Lord, Lord Rogan, is there, and he will attest to the fact that the Ulster Unionist Party did not support the provisions in the Stormont House agreement. So, that is two out of five that opposed it, pretty well right from the outset. Over the years, the level of consensus fell away even further.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

I point out to the Minister that, from my very deep recollection, the SDLP supported the Stormont House agreement.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

As one who was in the room on 23 December 2014 when the final document was handed out, I think the approach of the former Member for Belfast South, Alasdair McDonnell, who was the leader of the party at the time—he might want to correct me if my recollection is faulty—was to say that they would look at it and give it a fair wind, but he made no commitments beyond that. As I say, the party’s spokesman was in a rather different position, but that might not be the first or last time that has been the case.

I also recall vividly that, after the Stormont House agreement was reached in late 2014, in early 2015 the then First Minister and Deputy First Minister in the Northern Ireland Executive came to the then Secretary of State and asked her whether the UK Government would take the legislation through this Parliament in Westminster to implement it, citing the enormous difficulties that would be encountered by trying to get it through the Assembly. That in part is why we are here; it went from something that it was envisaged would be dealt with in the Assembly to something that it was then requested we do here. It has, if I can put it like this, been a Westminster responsibility ever since. That is in part why the Government are bringing the Bill forward and why I stand here today.

Given that context, as the noble Lord, Lord Hain, and others reminded us, we have been grappling with this—it was never dealt with in the 1998 agreement because it was too difficult then. Successive Governments have sought to deal with it; they have failed to achieve consensus and resolution has proved elusive, frankly, to Governments of both parties. But we are, in a sense, running out of time in that people are getting older—some are passing away—and the chance of getting information to victims and survivors becomes more difficult the longer time passes.

Perhaps I may briefly try to pick up one or two further comments from the debate. My noble friend Lord Hailsham referred to a statute of limitations, as did the noble Lord, Lord Dannatt. This provides me with an opportunity to remind the House that the Bill has changed considerably from the original Command Paper proposals. People have referred to the vote in the Northern Ireland Assembly in 2021—I think the noble Lord, Lord Weir of Ballyholme raised it—but that was on the proposals in the Command Paper rather than the Bill that we are dealing with. It has changed, and I am on record in this House as opposing a statute of limitations on this issue. My noble friend and I have discussed it before; he and I have different views, as I am opposed to it. If there were a statute of limitations in the Bill, I would not be here doing it. The Bill has changed so that the immunity provisions within it are conditional and must at least be earned. Where there is no co-operation with the new commission, the prosecution route remains open.

My friend, as I think I can call him, the noble Viscount, Lord Brookeborough, referred to veterans being opposed. The exchange that he had with the noble Lord, Lord Dannatt, probably drew out one of the points that I was going to make: that veterans are not a homogeneous group. I met the Northern Ireland Veterans Movement last week and it is very supportive of the Bill. Where I definitely agree with the noble Viscount and the noble Lord is that we should be proud of the record and service of members of the Royal Ulster Constabulary and our Armed Forces. As I have said in this House on many occasions, my view is that without their contribution, sacrifice and service there would have been no peace process in Northern Ireland. We owe them a huge debt of gratitude and we should never forget that.

Northern Ireland Elections

Debate between Lord Caine and Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick

Monday 14th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord speaking for the DUP. As he is well aware, the Government are committed to making changes to the protocol through discussions with the European Union that are currently taking place. We all hope that they will be successful, but in the event that that is not the case or is not possible, we remain committed to the provisions of the Bill.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, I would like to be associated with the Minister’s comments about Dr Éamon Phoenix, a lecturer in Irish history at Stranmillis, one of the colleges of Queen’s University Belfast, who had a particular emphasis on Ireland and Northern Ireland. Dr Phoenix was a very eminent historian, giving talks on a regular basis and writing documents about historical analysis, with particular reference to the current situation with the Good Friday agreement, particularly over the last 25 years.

The Government were correct to pause the elections. As my noble friend Lord Murphy said, it would simply have increased the level of polarisation in Northern Ireland. Rather gently, I say to the DUP that no political ideology, no matter how dearly held, should prevent the restoration of the political institutions. Over the last weekend, we have seen a health service in crisis. The Royal Victoria Hospital in Belfast and the Antrim Area Hospital have been unable to deal with accidents and emergencies that have arrived at their front doors.

As a follow-on from the Statement, and from the Elections Act 2022, what negotiations will take place with the political parties regarding the statutory designation of the First Ministers as joint First Ministers to reflect their equality of power and equality of say in terms of partnership and co-operation, and will such a provision be made in the forthcoming legislation on foot of this Statement?

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness and echo the comments about Dr Phoenix. I was present at a talk on the road to partition that he gave to the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly when I was briefly a member last year. It was an outstanding lecture and, of course, he played a great role in some of the work around the decade of centenaries in Northern Ireland from 2012 onwards.

The noble Baroness referred to opposition to the protocol. The Government have been very clear throughout that we do not regard opposition to the protocol as a justification for not being part of an Executive, just as, I hasten to add, we did not regard the Sinn Féin position between 2017 and 2020 as remotely justified. We have been pretty consistent on that.

The noble Baroness rightly referred to the problems in the NHS. I spoke of the £660 million black hole in the Executive’s finances and the impact it is having. It is why we will have to bring forward budget allocations and a budget Bill in Westminster. It is very regrettable. These are matters that should be dealt with in the Northern Ireland Assembly. However, we must provide some certainty and the ability to protect key public services at this time.

On the noble Baroness’s point about First Ministers and Deputy First Ministers, of course there will be ongoing engagement between Ministers and Northern Ireland political parties. At the moment, our first priority is to get the institutions back up and running. However, as I said in responding to the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, we are not against reforms and evolution of the institutions, so long as we proceed on the basis of agreement and sufficient consensus.

Northern Ireland Protocol Bill

Debate between Lord Caine and Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick

Committee stage
Wednesday 2nd November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Caine (Con)]

The noble Lord is right that it is probably not fruitful to speculate on what the circumstances might be in 2024. Our first objective is to have an Assembly in place that would be able to consider these matters and take the decision.

In conclusion, I hope I have provided some assurance to noble Lords about our intentions in respect of the powers in Clause 15, Article 18 of the protocol and the consent mechanism. I therefore urge the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his detailed explanation of the Government’s position. I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, my noble friend Lady Chapman and the noble Lords, Lord Hannay and Lord Dodds, for their interventions. This has been a very useful debate underpinning the principle of democratic consent. Irrespective of our differing views on this, I think we all believe in the value of democracy and people making decisions.

I would hope that we could have those institutions up and running in the short term, so that the democratic wishes of the people of Northern Ireland could be protected. I will further examine what Ministers have to say in relation to the protection of Article 18. If I have any further issues, I will write to the Minister, under separate cover, so to speak, and I reserve the right to further examine this on Report if required.

Northern Ireland Protocol Bill

Debate between Lord Caine and Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick

Committee stage
Monday 31st October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I am grateful to my noble friend, and I will ensure that the answers to the noble Baroness are as full and detailed as possible.

In conclusion, given the lateness of the hour and the need to make progress, I genuinely believe that the aims of the Government, the noble Baroness and other noble Lords who have spoken in the debate this evening are broadly aligned. There might be differences of approach, but we do not believe that the amendments are required. I will write to the noble Baroness in detail and, in that spirit, urge her to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate, including the Minister who responded. I obviously look forward to the detailed answers following the submission of my speech, outlining the questions to him. What the noble Lord, Lord Deben, has just expressed, and it is the thread running through the contributions made by noble Lords this evening, is the fear of the power that Ministers will have through the regulations. That will have a damaging impact on Article 2, perhaps by default, but it is the worry and the concern of both commissions in Northern Ireland. I understand that they have a statutory duty under the dedicated mechanism to deal with these issues, but it might be useful for the Government to enter into discussions. I do not know whether that is possible, because one is the responsibility of the Northern Ireland Executive and the other is the responsibility of the Northern Ireland Office, but it might be useful, because of their joint responsibility, to have further discussions with them in relation to these issues.

Because of the lateness of the hour, I look forward to the answers from the Minister. I believe that the problem lies with the further powers in the regulations that are yet to be revealed to your Lordships’ House. At this stage, however, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment, with the proviso—dependent on the answers received—that I might bring some of these issues back on Report.

Health and Social Care Act (Northern Ireland) 2022 (Consequential Amendments) Order 2022

Debate between Lord Caine and Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick

Monday 5th September 2022 Grand Committee

[Lord Caine (Con)]

The noble Lord is absolutely correct to point that out. It is 24 weeks; I said 28 because the current deadline is 28 October. Although Ministers can stay in place, they are very limited as to what they can do—they cannot take decisions that would require executive agreement because there is no functioning Executive and they cannot take decisions that would be cross-cutting with other departments—but it is a preferable situation to the one we had when the Assembly was last down, when just civil servants were running the show. I am all too well aware of the limitations. For that reason, noble Lords are absolutely right to set out once again the urgency of restoring a properly functioning Executive and Assembly in which Ministers are fully accountable to the Assembly and, through the Assembly, to their respective electorates within Northern Ireland.

The noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, again underlined with her questions on certain aspects of the legislation the importance of getting the Assembly back. Although her questions were directed at me they really should be directed by MLAs to the Health Minister. I am very happy to look into the matter for her, but it is essentially a devolved one on which further elucidation would be gained through Health Minister’s Questions in the Assembly rather than in a House of Lords Grand Committee.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

I asked the question because we as a House of Lords are being asked to approve an order that would enable a change in in English, Welsh and Scottish legislation to reflect the dissolution of the Health and Social Care Board. In view of that, would the question not be quite prescient? I also thank him for going to ask the current Minister for that information on the projected savings and whether they will be ploughed back into the service.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

As I said to the noble Baroness, I am perfectly happy to do so. I appreciate that no MLA is able to stand up in the Assembly and ask those questions at the moment, so I am happy to look into the matter and come back to her.

I welcome the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, to her place. She correctly identified my look of alarm at the fact that a Westminster health spokeswoman had come into a debate on Northern Ireland matters. She will be aware that I played no role whatever in the passing of the health and social care Act, so I must confess to a certain degree of ignorance of some of the matters she raised. Again, I am happy to look into them for her.

Northern Ireland: Operation Kenova

Debate between Lord Caine and Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick

Thursday 14th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I agree entirely with my noble friend. It is worth remembering that, on the day in question, some 20 bombs were exploded in the space of about 80 minutes in the centre of Belfast, killing nine people and injuring 130—it was utterly horrific. My noble friend is correct to highlight the attempt by some to rewrite history. We have seen over recent years, I am afraid, a pernicious counternarrative of the Troubles, which tries to place the state at the heart of every atrocity, denigrates the contribution of the police and our Armed Forces, and seeks to legitimise terrorism. We should strongly resist that.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, referred to Kenova and its lack of resources. Would the Minister and colleagues talk immediately to the Justice Minister to ensure that both financial and staff resources are provided to a legacy investigation unit within the Public Prosecution Service, so that it can carry out the prosecutions that will flow from the Kenova inquiry, rather than pursuing this legacy Bill, which has been rejected by everybody in Northern Ireland?

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her question. As I made clear in my response to the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, funding for the Public Prosecution Service in Northern Ireland is a devolved matter for the Department of Justice.

Identity and Language (Northern Ireland) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Caine and Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick

Report stage
Wednesday 6th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, first, I apologise for my non-participation at Second Reading, due to the fact that I was at Queen’s University on that day receiving an honorary professorship, and in Committee because I had Covid. However, I watched that stage from the comfort of my bedroom and found that some very interesting points were made on that day. I support and endorse the comments made by my noble friend Lord Murphy and those of the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie.

The Bill would have been much better dealt with in the Northern Ireland Assembly by its Members. Obviously, however, there is a necessity for the UK Government, via the Northern Ireland Office, to bring forward this legislation in Parliament because it could not seem, regrettably, to be progressed through the Northern Ireland Assembly. I support the clauses and central purpose of the Bill: to deliver on large aspects of the New Decade, New Approach agreement, which was the basis of an agreement between the five main parties in Northern Ireland, resulting in the formation of the Executive, the Assembly and other institutions in early January 2020. I support the Bill and want to see it implemented, subject, obviously, to the amendments in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Murphy, and the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, along with others that I have tabled in respect of powers to do with the Secretary of State.

I believe in and support the Irish language. I did Irish at school up to GCSE/O-level and then attended, on two separate occasions, the Gaeltacht in north-west Donegal. You were expected to speak Irish in the house you were allocated there and in the school—the Irish College. I am also a firm believer that place names in Ireland, both north and south, and many words in Irish inform and teach us about her heritage, our unique geographical landscape and our environment. In fact, many of our towns on the island, north and south, have Anglicised versions of the old Irish names. That is not by way of a political point; it is simply a historical fact of heritage.

I also support the provisions for Ulster Scots as a linguistic grouping that transcends traditions in Northern Ireland. In many ways, perhaps it should not be conflated with identity, but I understand the pressing amendments in that respect. My name is from the lowland Scots, so I represent the Gael and the Planter, which I do not see as an offensive personal identification mechanism. Like the Ulster poet John Hewitt, I see that as a means of identification because it represents the richness and beauty of diversity and challenges us all on that necessary path to reconciliation.

To revert to the amendments on public authorities, I am very much in agreement with my colleagues who have just spoken. I suppose part of the reasoning behind the original drafting was that the Bill was meant to be dealt with by the Northern Ireland Assembly and Executive, hence there was no reference to the Northern Ireland Office and the Human Rights Commission, which has direct responsibility and derives that authority from the Northern Ireland Office.

I make a special plea to the Minister, because we are dealing with this in the UK Parliament, to give due consideration to and accept these amendments. I also suggest, if that is not possible today, that he goes back to his ministerial colleagues in the NIO to see what may be possible and considered acceptable through the passage from this House to the other place, and in so doing that have a period of reflection. I know that these issues were also discussed in Committee because other areas are not included, such as the UK Passport Office, vehicle tax and registration, the Parades Commission, Covid testing and money and tax services.

I believe that for the provisions of the Bill to have meaning in government circles, the two mentioned here—the NIO and Human Rights Commission—need to be immediately included and the Government should give consideration to those and others in the fullness of time. I fully support this amendment.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Lord Caine) (Con)]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lords who have spoken to these amendments. I say at the outset how grateful I am to the noble Lord, Lord Murphy. As I made clear in my first speech from this Dispatch Box as a Minister, while we might not agree on everything all the time, when it comes to Northern Ireland I will always try to adopt as consensual, bipartisan and open an approach as possible. I am very grateful to the noble Lord.

He mentioned the Bill being a faithful implementation of the New Decade, New Approach agreement from January 2020 and that is what the Government have sought to do. However, I agree with other noble Lords that this really should have been dealt with in the Northern Ireland Assembly and not within this Parliament. It is a matter of regret that this is the case. I remember first-hand the period from 2017 to 2020 when these issues paralysed politics in Northern Ireland and led to a prolonged lack of functioning devolved government. It was a particularly frustrating period and I am very sorry that we are going through a similar period now, which I hope will be much shorter lived than last time.

Turning to the amendments, I am grateful to noble Lords for the spirit in which they were moved and spoken to. As noble Lords made clear, they seek to widen the definition of “public authorities” in the Bill beyond those captured in the Public Services Ombudsman Act (Northern Ireland) 2016. As noble Lords have mentioned, we had a very wide-ranging discussion in Committee. I am very sorry that the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick, was unable to be present. I hope that watching proceedings from her bedroom helped mitigate some of the Covid symptoms she might have experienced and aided her recovery, which we all very much welcome.

I do not intend to cover the same ground today as I covered extensively in Committee. However, the definition of public authorities for the purposes of the Bill, as with other parts of the legislation—this goes back to the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, about being faithful to New Decade, New Approach—is consistent with the legislation that was drafted by the Office of the Legislative Counsel in Stormont and published alongside New Decade, New Approach. As a result, the Bill does not seek to innovate in respect of that definition by removing or adding public authorities. It seeks to make provision comparable to a situation in which the Assembly, rather than this Westminster Parliament, had taken forward these commitments. The Northern Ireland Office and the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission, and indeed any of the bodies to which the noble Baroness referred, such as the Passport Office, were not intended to be captured by these commitments. That was never agreed and, as I said in Committee, the range of public authorities listed under the Public Services Ombudsman Act (Northern Ireland) and in this Bill is substantial and comprehensively covers devolved areas.

The Government consider that it would be inconsistent to expand the definition of public authorities beyond that set out in the draft legislation to which I have referred. Further, adding two or indeed more organisations with functions outside the devolved competence, such as the Northern Ireland Office and the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission, would undermine the overarching approach, which is that the First and Deputy First Ministers should be the sole arbiters when designating public authorities. There are of course provisions in this Bill that would allow the First and Deputy First Ministers to add or subtract from the public authorities that this legislation covers within Northern Ireland. To introduce organisations for which the First and Deputy First Ministers do not have direct responsibility would, I gently suggest, muddy the waters and detract from their role.

I would also suggest that the public in Northern Ireland do not routinely interact with the Northern Ireland Office, which for the most part does not deliver or provide day-to-day front-line services to the public that would seem to trigger the relevant provisions on Irish language and Ulster Scots. Of course, given the close interest of the Northern Ireland Office in the New Decade, New Approach commitments on which the Bill delivers, I would still expect consideration to be given to the national and cultural identity principles set out in the first part of the Bill, and the guidance issued by the respective commissioners. I would expect much the same with the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission.

However, the extension of the legal duty as proposed in these amendments would, in our view, be inconsistent with New Decade, New Approach and seem impractical for the reasons I have given. I therefore hope that noble Lords will not press their amendments.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Caine (Con)]

My Lords, I am incredibly grateful to all noble Lords who have participated in this Report stage for their contributions. I single out my noble friend Lord Lexden, who appears to be the only Conservative who has sat through the entire Report stage. Given that there might be one or two things happening outside the Chamber of interest to members of my party and beyond, that is commendable.

I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick, echoing some of the comments made by a number of noble Lords at the outset. If this debate has highlighted anything, it is precisely why it should be taking place in the Northern Ireland Assembly, not in this Parliament. It touches on very local, devolved matters that would be much better dealt with in the Assembly by local politicians, accountable to their local electorates. I hope we can reach such a situation. I very much take on board the sensible and wise comments of the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, about the need to discuss and negotiate. I hope we can resolve that very quickly, whatever the immediate future might hold for some of us.

The amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick, seeks to place further obligations on the Secretary of State in relation to the appointment of the Irish language commissioner and Irish language best practice standards after a certain threshold is met. As I made clear in Committee—I appreciate that the noble Baroness was unable to be present, although I am reliably informed that she could watch proceedings from her bedroom while recovering—I sympathise with the intention of wanting to ensure that the provisions of the Bill are not stymied by inaction on the part of the Executive.

I also appreciate the noble Baroness’s desire for the Secretary of State to move quickly if such inaction were to present itself. I have had conversations with Irish language groups, in particular Conradh na Gaeilge, on that point. However, my starting point is, as I have said throughout the passage of the Bill, that the Government would not wish to intervene routinely in devolved matters and that the use of any powers in the Bill would require careful consideration.

The powers in the Bill have been carefully drafted to allow the Secretary of State to use his or her discretion and to consider the political circumstances at the time. I fear that introducing a timeframe within which he or she had to act would detract from that flexibility. The noble Lord, Lord Murphy, was Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and a senior Minister during the Good Friday agreement negotiations, so he will appreciate that sometimes the Secretary of State needs a degree of flexibility in exercising his or her judgment.

As I laid out before the Committee, in our view the stipulated timeframe of 30 days set out in the amendment would be wholly impractical, particularly in respect of public appointments, which need to be conducted with rigour and, quite rightly, need a longer timeframe to complete, as my noble friend Lord Dodds of Duncairn made clear in his comments. Such a timeframe would almost certainly preclude important public appointment procedures from taking place, which I suspect is not the noble Baroness’s intention.

I also suspect that the consequences of the Secretary of State’s intervention being compelled would set us further back from securing the public’s long-term confidence in the measures set out in this legislation. Lastly, as my noble friend Lord Dodds pointed out, the proposed amendment applies in this case only in respect of the Irish language provisions of the Bill, not those pertaining to the Ulster Scots and Ulster-British tradition or the new office established by it.

The noble Baroness’s Amendment 27 seeks to give a further area where step-in powers could be exercised—namely, in relation to strategies relating to the Irish language and Ulster Scots as set out by Section 28D of the Northern Ireland Act 1998. As I said earlier today and in Committee, this is a separate undertaking from the legislative commitments on identity and language set out in New Decade, New Approach. For that reason, we have decided not to include such a provision in this legislation.

The noble Baroness, Lady Goudie, who I welcome to her place here, talked about appointments. At the risk of repeating what I said in Committee, there are well-established appointment procedures in Northern Ireland but these would essentially be matters for the Northern Ireland Executive to take forward rather than Her Majesty’s Government.

I turn to Amendments 28, 29 and 36 in the names of my noble friends Lord Morrow and Lord Empey and spoken to by my noble friend Lord Dodds of Duncairn. In Committee, I set out at length the Secretary of State’s step-in powers more broadly. I realise that these are difficult areas. Throughout the Committee debates, I stressed that the Government would not wish to intervene routinely and that the use of these powers would require careful consideration, and that remains the case.

I have a good deal of sympathy with the comments of my noble friend Lord Dodds of Duncairn and the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, in respect of these powers. The only reason they are there is to ensure that a key element of New Decade, New Approach is capable of being delivered—something that, regrettably, was not happening after the Assembly was restored in January 2020. Agreeing again with the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, I think I said in Committee that one does not always have to be totally comfortable with something to regard it as necessary, and I believe that the powers are proportionate and necessary.

However, as the noble Lord alluded to, the need for appropriate scrutiny of these powers and the importance of accountability before this House are paramount. I therefore make a commitment to noble Lords today on the step-in powers, following my promise in Committee to look further at these issues. Having reflected, I can commit that the Northern Ireland Office will make Written Statements to both Houses every six months from commencement to provide updates on the Bill’s implementation. Those statements will include details on any use of the step-in powers within the relevant six-month period and will enable the Government to keep both Houses informed of the delivery of NDNA commitments more broadly. I will also reflect further on the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, about timings.

I hope that this commitment, from the Dispatch Box, will provide some reassurance to noble Lords and go some way—probably not all the way—to allaying their concerns. The Government remain of the view that these powers are required in the Bill, however uncomfortable some may be. On this basis, I urge the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who participated in this short debate. It was very interesting and different views were offered. I was trying to ensure the protection of the legislation and, obviously, the protection of devolution. I would still urge the Minister to give consideration to the content of both amendments. If he could meet Conradh na Gaeilge in the coming months, in advance of the Bill coming to the other place, to discuss these particular issues, I would be extremely grateful. I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 25.

Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland

Debate between Lord Caine and Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick

Monday 16th May 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government, following the result of the Northern Ireland Assembly elections on 5 May, when they will resume negotiations with the European Commission on the Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Lord Caine) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government have been engaged in negotiations with the European Union in good faith since last summer. We are asking the Commission to go back to member states for a new mandate, but we cannot wait to fix the problems facing people in Northern Ireland resulting from the protocol. We hope that the EU’s position changes. If it does not, then it will be necessary to act.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, political stability and peace can only be protected through partnership and pragmatism in Northern Ireland. There has been mounting speculation about the Government’s proposed intentions to override parts of the Northern Ireland protocol against the express wishes of the majority of MLAs who were recently elected to the Assembly. Therefore, in this regard, can the Minister indicate whether this is correct and, if so, what format that will take? Also, will the Foreign Secretary and her team continue with negotiations with the EU on the outstanding technical issues on SPS and the customs code, to which there are solutions? I believe that is what is required to underpin political stability in Northern Ireland.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, who asked me quite a number of questions there. She will know that, like her, I was a very strong supporter of the Belfast/Good Friday agreement, as are the Government. The problem that we face today is that, ironically, the protocol, an instrument that was designed to uphold the agreement, is undermining the agreement and threatening political stability in Northern Ireland: witness that we have had no First or Deputy First Minister since February and no immediate prospect of having them unless something changes. It is therefore the Government’s position that we will at some point have to make a realistic assessment of what intervention is necessary as to the precise nature of that intervention. The noble Baroness will be aware that I cannot go into any more detail today, but I do not think that she will have to wait very long.

The Future of the Northern Ireland Assembly

Debate between Lord Caine and Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick

Wednesday 30th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I am tempted to give my noble friend a one-word answer, which is yes. However, I assure him, if he needs assuring, that this Government believe, head, heart and soul, in the Belfast agreement and the devolved institutions it establishes and we wish to see the restoration of a fully functioning Executive after the Assembly election on 5 May. My noble friend will be aware that the background to my right honourable friend’s Statement of last week is the clear legal requirement placed upon him by Section 9 of the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019 regarding the commissioning of abortion services, a legal requirement which still stands.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, will the Minister use his good offices to ensure that democratic values are upheld in Northern Ireland following all the attacks on democracy this week and on those who uphold peace and reconciliation? Will he also use his good offices to ensure that the institutions are up and running following the election—that is, all the institutions according to the three-stranded approach of the Good Friday agreement—so that local decisions, as per the devolution settlement, can be made by local MLAs who understand and appreciate the issues of their constituents—

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[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick]

—and that the threats to the stability of the institutions by certain parties are ended forthwith?

[Lord Caine (Con)]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick, and I completely agree with her points. In respect of the elections, of course people ought to be able to campaign, put up election posters and canvass without any intimidation or fear of intimidation in any part of Northern Ireland. That is part of the democratic process. On the re-establishment of the institutions, I absolutely agree with her. It is essential for Northern Ireland that all the institutions established by the Belfast agreement, under strands 1, 2 and 3, function properly and in accordance with the way they were set out in the agreement. We are fully committed to ensuring that happens after the election.

Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland

Debate between Lord Caine and Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick

Thursday 3rd March 2022 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Lord Caine) (Con)]

My Lords, before responding to the debate, as I am the first Northern Ireland Office Minister to be at the Dispatch Box in either House since the tragic death of Christopher Stalford, I formally place on record the Government’s sincerest condolences to Laura, the rest of Christopher’s family and his DUP colleagues.

First, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Jay of Ewelme, for tabling this Motion. As he reminded the Committee, before my appointment last November, I had the privilege of serving under his chairmanship as a member of the Northern Ireland protocol sub-committee of the European Affairs Committee. Like colleagues from all parts of the Committee, I benefited immensely from his wise counsel and was hugely impressed by his ability to reach consensus when faced with a range of divergent views—all, of course, in the best traditions of the Diplomatic Service. I take on board the noble Lord’s comments about my right honourable friend the Minister for Europe; I will take them back. Of course, I commend the ongoing work of the sub-committee and wish it well.

I am grateful to the noble Lord for raising issues that remain of immense importance to Northern Ireland in particular but also, as we should never forget, to the rest of the United Kingdom as a whole. The Motion in his name asks

“Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the impact of the Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland on recent political developments in Northern Ireland.”

I will answer that in two parts, if I may: first, by looking at the situation in Northern Ireland today, including reaffirming the Government’s strong commitment to political stability; and, secondly, making a few more general comments about the problems created by the protocol and the Government’s efforts to resolve them.

I turn first to the current situation in Northern Ireland and political stability. One of the Government’s overriding objectives is, of course, the preservation and implementation of the 1998 agreement, along with its successors, and the enormous benefits that have flowed from it. Our commitment, and my personal commitment, to the 1998 agreement, the constitutional principles it enshrines, including the principle of consent, the institutions it establishes and the rights it safeguards for the whole community, remain unshakeable. It is my firm view and that of the Government that it remains the bedrock of all the progress we have seen in Northern Ireland over the last nearly 24 years.

In that context, I warmly welcome back to his place in the House the noble Lord, Lord Murphy of Torfaen, who, as he reminded the Committee, was intimately involved in those negotiations in 1998. I thank him for many of his wise words today.

This Government will never take any risks with the agreement and the relative peace, prosperity and stability it has helped to create. If I might speak personally for a moment, as one who worked in the Northern Ireland Office under Peter Brooke and Patrick Mayhew during a period of direct rule in the early 1990s, while the Troubles were still raging, I need absolutely no convincing of just how important political stability is. It is therefore profoundly regrettable and disappointing, as the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, made clear, that for the second time in recent years we now find ourselves without a properly functioning Executive in Northern Ireland following the resignation of the First Minister on 3 February and the consequential removal from office of the Deputy First Minister.

The Northern Ireland (Ministers, Elections and Petitions of Concern) Act agreed by Parliament last month will provide some greater resilience and continuity of decision-making, including potentially after the 5 May Assembly election. But, as a number of noble Lords made clear, it is simply not an adequate substitute for a fully functioning Executive working for all the people of Northern Ireland and delivering on their priorities—not least, as my noble friend Lord Rogan mentioned, when it comes to the National Health Service, which in terms of outcomes already lagged behind the rest of the United Kingdom before the pandemic and now does so even more as we emerge from it, I hope. The noble Baroness, Lady Goudie, made a similar reference to the state of the NHS.

Another unfortunate consequence of the current situation is that the Northern Ireland Executive will not now be able to agree and pass a three-year budget this side of the election. That would have given departments such as health greater certainty to enable them to plan ahead and implement necessary reforms. Both in the run-up to and for a period after the Assembly election, Ministers will still be able to take decisions, but nothing that could be regarded as controversial or cross-cutting, which would require executive approval.

I take on board the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Murphy. The Government will continue to urge and call for the immediate restoration of a fully functioning Executive and work towards that end: an Executive able to take the necessary steps to reform the delivery of public services; to address structural weaknesses in the Northern Ireland economy, such as skills and productivity; and, of course, to tackle community divisions, which hold back society in Northern Ireland.

However, we are under no illusions that this will be an easy task—as I know from personal experience and as the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, reminded us—either in the run-up to the Assembly election in May or in the period immediately thereafter. That is, unless we can fix the root cause of the current instability in Northern Ireland, and that is of course the other subject of today’s debate: the protocol.

The problems created by the protocol are well documented, including in the Command Paper presented to Parliament by my noble friend Lord Frost last July and, as the noble Lord, Lord Jay, mentioned, in the first report of the sub-committee, when I was a member, also last July. Many noble Lords who have contributed this afternoon have highlighted a number of particular issues with the protocol, which I acknowledge. The noble Lord, Lord Jay, set out many of them.

I heard for myself the many challenges that businesses in particular are encountering when I met representative organisations and individual businesses, including a haulage company, in Northern Ireland a few days ago. I anticipate visiting a major port in the near future to look at the situation on the ground. I was left in no doubt by the business community in Northern Ireland about the urgent need to deal with these problems.

In addition, as the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, and my noble friend Lord Dodds of Duncairn made clear, there are important constitutional and political issues involved here, as well as issues of identity. It is clear that, in addition to the impact on business, the protocol strikes at the heart of the identity of the pro-union majority in Northern Ireland, who increasingly see themselves cut off from the very United Kingdom of which, on the basis of consent and in domestic and international law, they are an integral part. I assure my unionist colleagues that I never wish to see that position change.

In summary, the protocol has led to a diversion of trade, placed substantial additional burdens on business, disadvantaged consumers and led to societal issues, such as we witnessed in the run-up to—

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for giving way. Would he, along with ministerial colleagues representing the British Government, work with the Irish Government, to look at the provisions in Article 14(b) of the protocol on the North/South Ministerial Council and the implementation bodies to see whether there are immediate solutions, so that we can get past this interregnum phase and ensure that the institutions are up and running again? It is not solely the Executive that is down but the North/South Ministerial Council.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I of course take on board the noble Baroness’s comments. We are willing to look at any pragmatic solutions to this, although I would caution that negotiations on the protocol are between the United Kingdom Government and the European Commission. The Commission represents Ireland in those negotiations, as was made clear to me by Monsieur Barnier in 2018, when I had the privilege—that is probably the wrong word—of an hour with him.

I was saying that, in summary, diversion of trade and societal problems have disadvantaged consumers and placed burdens on business. Although I accept that opinion within Northern Ireland remains divided, as the contributions of the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, and the noble Lords, Lord Thomas of Gresford and Lord Murphy, made clear, a protocol that does not have the support of one part of the community is simply not sustainable and durable, as my noble friend Lord Frost has said on many occasions.

As my noble friend Lord Godson and others highlighted, the blunt truth is that a protocol that was intended to preserve and protect the 1998 agreement in all its parts has now become an instrument for undermining it. Clearly, it does not work for all communities and for business in Northern Ireland, and is having a destabilising effect on politics. That cannot be an acceptable state of affairs.

A number of noble Lords referred to how we got here. If they will forgive me, I wish to focus on the present, but I will pick up on the reference the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, made to my former boss, the then Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Theresa Villiers. I hold her in the highest regard but it was never a requirement of being a special adviser that one had to agree with one’s boss on every single issue, if I might put it like that.

It is clear that we need to remedy the problems created by the protocol, in both construction and implementation, as a matter of urgency to ensure the proper flow of goods within our United Kingdom internal market while, of course, respecting the integrity of the EU single market. We need to create the conditions in which the institutions established by the 1998 agreement can, across all three strands of that agreement, as my noble friends Lord Frost and Lord Godson made clear, be restored to their proper place and function effectively. That will of course require pragmatism and proportionality on all sides, but principally from the EU itself. For our part, and to this end, the UK Government set out in a Command Paper last year a range of constructive proposals. Of course, the EU published its four non-papers last year, which are, in the Government’s view, a step forward but fall short of what is required.

A number of noble Lords referred to the current negotiations. I am conscious of time and that I am surrounded by a number of seasoned negotiators, all of whom will, at one stage in their careers, probably have advised Ministers not to give a running commentary on current negotiations. It is not my intention to depart from that particular principle. I am sure noble Lords will understand that, although my department works closely with the FCDO, it is clearly in the lead on the negotiations. I am therefore somewhat limited in what I can say or share. Suffice it to say, as a number of noble Lords have mentioned, that intensive negotiations are continuing between my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary and the European Commission at both ministerial and official level. While it is the case that some progress has been made, significant gaps remain.

I will finish shortly. The Government’s clear position is that, while the conditions for triggering the safeguards within the protocol were indeed met some time ago, our strong preference is to resolve our differences through agreement, if possible. In response to the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Jay, at the outset, we very much hope that agreement can be reached. Unfortunately, I cannot really give him a timetable but, as I said earlier, we are seized of the importance of fixing this, and fixing it quickly. Failing that, the Government reserve the right to take unilateral action, for which the protocol clearly allows.

As the noble Lord, Lord Jay, reminded us, as did the noble Baroness, Lady Goudie, our debate today takes place against a backdrop of the greatest threat to peace and stability in Europe for decades, and our thoughts are with the people of Ukraine at this moment and we stand side by side with them. Notwithstanding the attention and commitment that that crisis is rightly taking up—I hope I can assure noble Lords on this point—the Government will continue to engage tirelessly to fix the problems around the protocol and pursue our objectives to build a Northern Ireland where, to use a phrase I have used many times before, politics works, the economy grows and society is more united.

The UK Government have the strongest possible interest in protecting peace and stability in Northern Ireland, and, through our unwavering support for the 1998 agreement and our efforts to fix the protocol, that is what we will strive to achieve.

Northern Ireland

Debate between Lord Caine and Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick

Monday 7th February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I would have to double-check, but that is not my understanding.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, critical to dealing with the post-pandemic recovery, addressing health waiting lists and making provisions for economic stability in Northern Ireland is the need to set a three-year budget and to have it ring-fenced, which requires executive decision-making and approval. The Minister will know that this cannot happen without an Executive. How will the Government—working with the Irish Government—ensure that there is immediate restoration of the Executive, and that the DUP will be told to stop their stunts and get on with the work of serving the people of Northern Ireland? What discussions did the Government have with the DUP prior to this happening last week?

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I assure the noble Baroness that the Government have been having discussions—not just with one party but with parties across the Northern Ireland Executive—in the run-up to the decision of the former First Minister last week and subsequently. She raises a very important point about the budget and, of course, one of the things that has bedevilled Northern Ireland in recent years has been the single-year budgets rather than the much longer three or four-year spending reviews that we are used to here. So far as the current situation is concerned, my understanding is that the Finance Minister can bring to the Assembly a budget for the next financial year, but she is absolutely right that it is not possible now to do a three-year budget, which would have to be a priority for an incoming Executive after the election.

Flags (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) Regulations 2021

Debate between Lord Caine and Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick

Tuesday 25th January 2022 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Lord Caine) (Con)]

My Lords, the draft Flags (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) Regulations 2021, were laid before the House on 23 November. I hardly need to remind the Committee, given the number of noble Lords from Northern Ireland who have taken an interest over the years, that the flying of flags is a very sensitive and delicate issue. Political disagreements over these issues led to the then Labour Government here in Westminster making provision on these matters in 2000 through the Flags (Northern Ireland) Order 2000, with flag flying on government buildings in Northern Ireland becoming a matter for the Flags Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2000.

The Flags Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2000 provide that on certain designated days the union flag, and in certain circumstances other flags, must be flown from government buildings. For the purposes of these regulations, a Northern Ireland government building is a building wholly or mainly occupied by members of the Northern Ireland Civil Service. The 2000 regulations also set out a number of “specified buildings” at which the union flag must be flown on the designated days in question. These buildings were chosen as they were the headquarters of Northern Ireland government departments. In 2002, the provisions of the regulations were extended by the then Government to court buildings in Northern Ireland.

After a very long gap of 18 years, the regulations were most recently amended in 2020 to deliver on a government commitment in New Decade, New Approach, which restored a devolved Government in Northern Ireland. This commitment was clear in stating that the Government will:

“Update the Flags Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2000 to bring the list of designated flag flying days from Northern Ireland government buildings and court-houses into line with the DCMS designated days, meaning the same designated days will be observed in Northern Ireland as in the rest of the UK”.


The Government will continue to deliver on this commitment to align the designated days in Northern Ireland with the rest of the UK.

As such, the instrument before the Committee today amends the 2000 regulations in four ways. The first two of the four amendments made by these regulations reflect the updated list of designated days for flag flying observed elsewhere in our country. They do so by amending the 2000 regulations following the sad death of His Royal Highness, the Duke of Edinburgh, last April, to remove his birthday, and the wedding day of Her Majesty the Queen, as designated days. A further amendment provides for the union flag to fly on the proclamation of a new monarch. This addresses an anomaly where currently the flags regulations only make provision for half-masting in the event of the death of a member of the Royal Family or a serving or former Prime Minister, and not for subsequent full masting upon the accession of a new monarch.

I trust that noble Lords will appreciate that, as the 2000 regulations set out in law the flying of flags from government buildings in Northern Ireland, they must have regard to a wide range of possible circumstances. It is for those reasons too that the final amendment provides that the union flag need not be flown on a designated day relating to a member of the Royal Family who has died.

The 2000 flags order requires that consideration be given by the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland to the Belfast agreement when making or amending the flags regulations. I can confirm that the Secretary of State is satisfied that these regulations treat flags and emblems in a manner that is respectful of Northern Ireland’s particular circumstances, while being fully consistent with Northern Ireland’s constitutional position as an integral part of our United Kingdom. The 2000 order also requires that consideration be given to regulations ahead of them being laid by the Northern Ireland Assembly. I can confirm this took place on 8 November and want to thank the Assembly for deliberating on these regulations in a considered and thoughtful manner.

I note that the other place debated this rather technical instrument in quick order—in some five and a half minutes—on 5 January and look forward to hearing contributions from noble Lords today. In that spirit, I commend the instrument to the Committee, and I beg to move.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, first, I thank the Minister for his explanation of the very technical provisions in these regulations. They deal with very sensitive issues relating to the passing of Prince Philip and the demarcation issues around the wedding day of the late Prince and Queen Elizabeth.

While the regulations make technical amendments, it is worth noting that flags and emblems in Northern Ireland have gone to the very heart of our society and community. They also lead in very much to our divided society. Northern Ireland is a divided society where flags and emblems are used on many occasions to mark out territory, define identity and cause internecine conflict between both traditions; this situation is heightened during the marching season. I suppose there are two flags: the flag of the United Kingdom and that of the Republic of Ireland. It is important that there is respect for both traditions and that we talk in terms of mutual understanding, building a shared society and having respect for political difference. Flags should not be dragged in the gutter to make a political point. Traditions should respect the value of identity and of those flags that demonstrate identity.

There is one issue, which was also raised during the Assembly debate on this on 8 November. The Minister will recall that, at the Stormont House talks, and then with the subsequent agreement, a decision was taken to establish the Commission on Flags, Identity, Culture and Tradition. It met on many occasions and eventually presented its report to the Executive Office last year. Even though it had worked on this for a considerable time before publishing the report in December, to me the report simply kicked the can down the road. No forward plan or action plan was produced, despite a delay of some two years in the report’s publication. It concluded that paramilitary flags—which are different from the union flag and the tricolour—and murals should not be displayed, but there was no plan from the commission to deal with this. Therefore, I ask the Minister to use his good offices with the Northern Ireland Executive, and in particular the Ministers in the Executive Office, to find out when they will bring forward a plan and when they will have discussions with the Government, under the strand one commitments of the Good Friday agreement, to deal with these issues. I am in no doubt that, to build that shared society, we require mutual understanding, reconciliation and, above all, respect for political difference.

Northern Ireland (Ministers, Elections and Petitions of Concern) Bill

Debate between Lord Caine and Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick

Committee stage
Monday 13th December 2021 Grand Committee

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister, in his response at Second Reading, provided some clarity on this, indicating that there would be constraints and that cross-cutting issues would still have to go to the Executive for approval. But what happens if there is no First and Deputy First Minister in that period of interregnum? We are supposed to have collective responsibility. Issues are supposed to be taken on a partnership basis. I can remember many times when we did not necessarily have that partnership basis, so I agree with the amendment in the names of my noble friends Lady Smith and Lord Coaker.

The noble Lord, Lord Dodds, referred to the period between 2017 and 2020. That was a time when civil servants were placed in an invidious position, with limited powers, which piled frustration and anxiety on the wider community. Those civil servants, because of their limited powers, could only take certain decisions. I can well recall the decision in court on the incinerator north of Belfast, where the judge’s judgment indicated that the civil servants had probably acted outwith their powers in this instance.

The Minister was, as I still am, a member of the Common Frameworks Scrutiny Committee. He will recall that the common frameworks came into place in the post-Brexit situation to deal with policy divergence in certain areas devolved to the DAs. Quite a significant amount was devolved to Northern Ireland, but no decisions were taken on those common frameworks during that three-year period because there were no Ministers in place to deal with that—there was no Northern Ireland Executive. The Minister will recall that we in our committee had great difficulty in trying to pursue those common frameworks to their final degree of approval, or to the next stage, where they could be examined with a greater degree of scrutiny. That illustrates the case where there is a need for full-time Ministers.

However, in that period of interregnum, where a Minister’s authority is being extended because of the nature of the difficulties in the Executive, what authority do they have and can that be prescribed in this legislation? Perhaps the Minister could provide us with more clarity and more detail today. If need be, will the Government consider tabling an amendment on Report to deal with this issue and specify the areas of authority?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Lord Caine) (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful for the warm welcome from the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon. As my noble friend Lord Empey said to me after Second Reading, it all goes downhill from here. I thank the noble Baroness for her amendment and hope that my response will provide her with some clarity and sufficient reassurance over the role of caretaker Ministers under Clause 2.

It is worth reminding noble Lords of the central purpose of this clause. As noble Lords will recall, the Assembly and Executive ceased to function, in effect, following Martin McGuinness’s resignation in January 2017. As a consequence, Northern Ireland found itself in a state of political limbo, with limited or no decision-making, for nearly three years. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, I sincerely hope that we will never be in that situation again.

During the period while the Executive was not functioning, civil servants, as has been mentioned, were left trying to maintain the machinery of government and provide public services in the absence of ministerial decisions. Without the direction and control of Ministers, those civil servants were significantly limited in the powers that they exercised. The noble Lord, Lord Dodds, referred to differences of opinion between civil servants over which powers they could exercise and we all remember the court case over the incinerator in north Belfast, around 2018, to which the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, referred. The noble Lord’s comments yet again underline the unsatisfactory nature of the situation in which we found ourselves.

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[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, I also accept this amendment and declare an interest, in that I am a former MP and Member of the Northern Ireland Assembly, who served in both for a short time. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Dodds, that this amendment would prevent a cliff edge from happening, because those who are Members of the Assembly and of Parliament—and many of my colleagues were a Member of Parliament and then became a Member of the Assembly—brought with them a knowledge of legislative procedure. The Northern Ireland Assembly was very different from councils, as the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, said. It was about bringing forward and scrutinising legislation so, in the early days, it was important to have people of experience there.

I am opposed to double-jobbing, but this amendment brings a transitional phase that would help the situation. I recall an election count for the Assembly in 2016, when my colleague Colin McGrath, who had been a member of Newry, Mourne and Down council, was elected to the Northern Ireland Assembly. The chief executive of the council arrived at the same time as Colin McGrath was elected and asked for his letter of resignation and his computer to be handed over there and then. Whereupon Colin McGrath said, “That indicated that you thought I was going to be elected and it was very august of you to think that. But I am not in a position to do either of those things this evening. You will get them on Monday morning”.

What currently exists gives officials an upper hand, of which people may not have been aware, to execute their responsibilities and feel mighty important. I think there is a case for this amendment, in that it provides for the transitional phase, and allows for that essential knowledge to be carried through and for people to bed down while they transfer to their new situation in a fully pledged way. Then it allows for their replacements to be selected and take their place in the Assembly. It is all done not according to a list system, as it was originally, but from internal systems within parties. We are undergoing one in South Down at the minute, and they can cause consternation among friends and colleagues by creating unnecessary rivalry.

It is important that people concentrate on issues, legislation, scrutiny and investigation, rather than who is going to replace who. That is not good politics, in the truest sense of the word, and is not about service and delivery. The amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, would make sure of continuity in transition, and of concentration on legislation and the issues that matter to people and on which they expect their elected representatives to deliver for them.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, for moving Amendment 5 on dual mandates. I am afraid my noble friend Lord Dodds knows me too well on this issue, because I am about to confess to a degree of mea culpa for putting us in this position in the first place. As my noble friend pointed out, the promise to stop the practice of double-jobbing or dual mandates was a commitment made in the 2010 Conservative and Unionist Northern Ireland manifesto, when my party and that of my noble friend Lord Empey put up joint candidates at the general election. I am afraid I actually drafted that section of the manifesto, along with a speech by David Cameron, given at La Mon House on the eve of the poll in 2010, in which he promised to end the scandal of double-jobbing. So my noble friend is absolutely correct.