Wales Bill

Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Excerpts

Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Tuesday 15th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Morgan of Ely (Lab)]

My Lords, I support the amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Hain. The Welsh public sector workforce is the linchpin in ensuring that Welsh public sector authorities carry out their functions and provide services to the public. There is a well-recognised link between good employment practices and industrial relations within authorities and contractors and the quality of the services they provide to the public.

Since devolution, the Welsh Government have led with a distinct vision for public services, rooted in the principles of social partnership. These principles have guided the development of public service delivery in Wales, which is now distinct from that of England. As many noble Lords have noted, this amendment would not undermine the shared framework and protections in respect of employment and industrial relations, but would allow the Assembly to augment these where appropriate to support the effective delivery of devolved public services by Welsh public authorities. I ask the Minister how he thinks people based in London can have the first inkling of what is happening in our schools and hospitals, which are devolved.

For devolution to be meaningful, the Welsh Government must be able to continue to pursue social partnership, defining the relationship between public service employers and employees with integrity, transparency and trust. In proposing this reservation, the UK Government are seeking to divorce the terms of employment and industrial relations in public services from the delivery of those services. The reservation will fundamentally weaken the existing powers of the Government of Wales Act and will prevent Welsh Ministers exercising their legitimate functions prescribed by the Bill on public services. We know this because a leaked letter from the government legal opinion suggested that we currently have the rights over these powers.

I echo the point made by my noble friend Lord Murphy: let us avoid a future reference to the Supreme Court. This was supposed to be the final full stop in the whole legislative framework for the devolution settlement for Wales. If this goes through, I assure your Lordships that this will be not the full stop but the beginning of another battle.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government and Wales Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords who participated in the debate on this part of the Bill concerning employment law. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hain, for his very kind words in opening the debate.

To put this in perspective, I think it is common ground between the noble Lord, Lord Hain, and I that employment and industrial relations law is a reserved area. I am not sure that that view is shared by the noble Baroness. She seemed to be suggesting that somehow our reservation meant the end of civilisation as we knew it. It is fundamental to the country that we live in. The UK Government believe that the underlying legislative framework concerning rights and responsibilities in the workplace must be reserved. I believe as much as anyone does in good employment practice. I worked in the public sector in Wales before I went into the Assembly. I was a member of a trade union. I do not think I can still be a member of that trade union or I would be. It is imperative that we have good employment law and good industrial relations. I would not contest this. This is a very important area, but we want a simple, unified system in Great Britain. As the noble Lord acknowledged, this is not something that is devolved to Scotland. It was not considered by the Smith commission or the Silk commission and it was not part of the St David’s Day process.

The system we have allows workers to be clear on their rights, whether they are in the public sector or the private sector, in England or in Wales. This is a fundamental principle and I cannot accept that the law underpinning the terms and conditions of public sector workers should be different from the law that underpins the rights of other workers. Whether that leads to better rights, more rights or worse rights, it seems fundamentally wrong. It is important to have common minimum standards which apply to all workers throughout Great Britain to minimise uncertainty and cost for both workers and employers. This is a matter of employment law; it is not about public service delivery.

Furthermore, it seems clear to me that if public sector employers in Wales, which would include the Welsh Government and public sector authorities, want to grant more favourable wages or more holidays then they are able to do so. They can do that presently and there is no question of it being taken back. Also, the judgment on the agricultural wages Act in the Supreme Court is an exception to the reservation. There is no question of that being clawed back as that specific piece of law remains.

If we had a diversified system of rights, workers might be reluctant to pursue the best progression opportunities in their organisation because they could get better rights in the private sector or the public sector—one or the other. They may find it more difficult to undertake collective bargaining and make their voice heard in isolation from colleagues in similar roles in Wales or the rest of Britain. I certainly believe in having strong industrial rights and strong employment rights—and obligations, too—but this has to be unified. As I said, both the Silk and Smith commissions came down in favour of a single employment regime, such as this, and there is nothing to prevent the Welsh Government or devolved public authorities agreeing specific arrangements with their staff, provided that they meet the requirements of employment and industrial relations legislation which apply across Great Britain.

The noble Lord, Lord Murphy, suggested that this amendment did not concern strikes. I am sure that I heard the noble Lord, Lord Hain, say that it related to altering the threshold, so it is about strikes and, as drafted, would certainly include the possibility of doing that. The Government could not sign up to that, nor to different rights on check-off or facility time. The rights should by all means be generous, but they should be unified across the country. I do not see that insisting on this is somehow apocalyptic in the way that some noble Lords suggested. The reservation of employment law ensures that there is a minimum floor of rights to offer workers key protections. At the same time, it recognises that each workplace is unique by allowing employers to provide additional pay or holidays in the public or private sector, if they want to do so.

Amendment 74 was put forward by the noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys, for the Liberal Democrats, and I have added my name to it for the Government. I am not sure whether that makes it an additional government amendment, but we are in agreement with removing the reservation relating to teachers’ pay. This has been a key priority for the Welsh Government and we are very happy to support this amendment. We have been listening on teachers’ pay and are content to support the noble Baroness’s amendment.

In relation to employment law, because we see specific difficulties regarding different rights in the public sector, some of which relate to the calling of strikes but do not affect pay and holidays—which the public sector can negotiate quite separately, as it does now—I urge the noble Lord, Lord Hain, to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Hain]

My Lords, can I express my severe disappointment at the change of tone in the Minister’s delivery? The rest of his responses to the amendments moved by my noble friends have been genuinely positive. He has conceded where he could and stood his ground where he could, but within the framework of the devolution settlement in which he believes, as I do. On this amendment, I do not mean to sound insulting, but the way that he came across was, I felt, like he was reading out a prepared text—no doubt supplied by the Wales Office in Whitehall—that simply does not recognise the reality of this amendment.

The noble Baroness, Lady Finn, said along with the Minister that there would be the creation of a two-tier system of employment rights. How is that possible, when the 17 Acts and regulations which are already listed as reserved matters on pages 68 and 69 of the Bill would remain reserved under the terms of this amendment? How is it possible that we would create a two-tier system of employment rights when all the employment rights would remain reserved? We are discussing the operation of industrial relations practice in Welsh public services, not in the Welsh private sector. There is no exception provided for the Welsh private sector, which is the largest area of employment in Wales. The amendment is simply about devolved public services and reserved matters and many others matters covering all the issues. I can read them out to remind the Minister, but they are there.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

The amendment would insert:

“Terms and conditions of employment and industrial relations in Welsh public authorities and services”,

so the amendment is not just about industrial relations.

“Terms and conditions of employment”,

is also contained in the amendment.

[Lord Hain]

I understand that. I understand my own amendment. It refers to public services.

The Minister is saying that there should be common standards. Wales already has entirely differently configured public services. That is the beauty of devolution. There is a learning experience between the different constituent parts of the United Kingdom about where best practice occurs. In some areas, it is in Wales. We have not had a doctors’ strike. I do not think we have had the same teachers’ disputes. We have not had the same local government disputes. We have not had the same firefighter disputes. Why is that? It is because these are devolved public areas run in a different way in Wales, with a different system of employee/employer relations provided for—we believed until this Bill tried to overturn the provisions of the Supreme Court ruling—in the devolution settlement. I echo the great eloquence and legal authority of the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, in saying that this is massive diminution—to use his phrase—of the authority of Wales. Indeed, it is a direct challenge to the Supreme Court, where it may well end up. As my noble friend Lord Murphy said, I do not think that is where the Minister wants to be in his private view of the future, even if that is where he is going to end up if he sticks to this stance.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, underlined that the Supreme Court caught the UK Government by surprise. She was very frank about that. It perhaps even caught me by surprise by interpreting the devolution settlement in the way that it did in a very convincing way. I hope that the Minister recognises that he is now seeking to undermine that.

I remind the House of what my noble friend Lady Morgan of Ely said; she said that the terms of the Bill will prevent Welsh Government Ministers exercising their legitimate functions in public services in how they treat their employees and how they operate their industrial relations from training time to facility time to all the matters that are essential to running public services in Wales effectively.

My legal advice is that the Minister’s position is flawed. He may deploy government lawyers to contest that, and then we will see in the courts. We will have the Wales TUC and the Welsh Government and, I suspect, all the people of Wales right behind them challenging the UK Government’s position.

The question I shall conclude on is: are public services in Wales devolved or not—not just the policies, but the delivery, which depends on employees and the relationships between employees in the public sector and their managers being very good? That requires good industrial relations, and Wales has been able to achieve that. Wales would continue to be able to achieve it under the devolution settlement if this amendment were accepted.

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[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, I greatly appreciate the kind and generous words of the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, on S4C. I support the amendment completely, but there is a possible compromise, if I may be so bold as to suggest it. Many months ago, when the question of the BBC charter was mentioned, I asked the Government whether they would be prepared to have in-built in the charter a guarantee on the adequate financing of S4C as well as on its independence and future. The reply that I received was somewhat anodyne, but I was assured that so great was the affection of Her Majesty’s Government for the Welsh language that I had nothing to fear at all. It may be that that is a compromise that would guarantee effectively the future of S4C, its independence and its finance, and I commend it to the noble Lord.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, for moving this amendment on Welsh language broadcasting and other Welsh language media—and I note that that is the exception that is set down. I do not think that it is limited to S4C, as some noble Lords have assumed. It is not. I join other noble Lords in applauding the work of S4C; it is an extraordinarily strong and effective institution that does marvellous work for Wales in relation to the language and more broadly, and it has totemic significance and real significance and generates jobs in the Welsh media sector, which is important.

As the noble Lord said, it is absolutely right that the Silk commission recommended that funding the public expenditure element for S4C should be devolved to the Assembly. It was part of its recommendations but was not taken forward in the St David’s Day proposals: I understand that it was considered in that process but there was no consensus round it. It is also worth noting that as recently as June last year, the Welsh Government said, through Minister Ken Skates, that they could not support the devolution of broadcasting. Admittedly, that was said across the piece but it was the general position.

Where does that leave us? I will try to give an update on the financial commitments made by the Government, in response to the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, and other noble Lords. The Government have agreed that funding for S4C—as opposed to Welsh language broadcasting—would be protected in 2016-17 at its current level of £6.8 million. The settlement for Exchequer funding in following years was set out at the 2015 spending review, and in September the BBC confirmed that it will protect licence-fee funding for S4C at £74.5 million until 2022. That is beyond the length of this Parliament, as noble Lords will be aware. The Government then committed to a comprehensive review of S4C in 2017, covering its remit, funding and governance to ensure that the broadcaster can continue to meet the needs of Welsh-speaking audiences in the future. I will endeavour to find out if we have any further details on the process and will write to noble Lords to update them on what the timetable is.

Broadcasting is different from almost any other area of activity in that it is international, national UK and national Wales. I am conscious of the fact that, historically, many people have been quite keen to see S4C’s budget settled in Westminster because they thought it was safer here that it would be in Wales—I had better be careful what I say. I notice a change of tenor in that position. Given that the Welsh Government do not seem to be seeking this, and given that there was no consensus in the St David’s Day process, I will have a look at it. I am very content to discuss this with the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, and others to see if there is anything we can do to strengthen the position of S4C and the involvement of the Welsh Government—a point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan. I appreciate what the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, has said on the issue of the difficulty of broadcasting. As I said, it is internationalised in many ways so is unique among activities.

I am very conscious of the fact that the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, was photocopying “Fireman Sam” scripts at S4C, so spoke with great authority. My first job in life was loading Britvic bottles on a production line. We had very different experiences: the noble Baroness was more clerical and managerial than I was in those heady student days. I appreciate that this is an important area and I will have another look at it and speak to the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, to see if there is anything we can do to strengthen this position. I hope that, with that, he will be content to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate, which has brought out a number of issues relating to S4C. I am grateful to the Minister for his undertaking to look again at some aspects of this. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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Moved by

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

67B: Schedule 1, page 74, line 6, leave out “or training” and insert “, training or libraries”

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Moved by

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

67D: Schedule 1, page 74, leave out lines 20 to 22 and insert—
“176_ Proceedings and orders under Part 4 or 5 of the Children Act 1989 or otherwise relating to the care or supervision of children.”

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[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for moving this amendment in relation to the civil registration of births, deaths and places of worship. I have listened carefully to her argument. Civil registration functions, including the registration and administration of births, deaths, marriages, civil partnerships, adoptions and associated functions, and the registration of places of worship, are overseen by the Registrar-General for England and Wales, and the Government do not have plans to devolve any of these functions. Perhaps I may try to explain some of the difficulties that would arise in relation to devolution and answer some of the issues raised by the noble Baroness.

First, the noble Baroness raised the issue of the Welsh language, which is obviously very valid in relation to registration. However, it is already possible to register events in both English and Welsh where the events take place in Wales. The registration Acts, as extended by the Welsh Language (Wales) Measure 2011, the Welsh Language Act 1993 and the Welsh Language Act 1967 enable any person who can speak and understand Welsh to make a bilingual registration. Welsh local authorities, by virtue of their obligations under their Welsh language schemes, should provide registration staff who can speak, write and understand Welsh to accommodate citizens who desire this service.

The current position is that the Places of Worship Registration Act 1855 extends to England and Wales. Amendments 68 and 69 seek to separate civil registration functions by specifically devolving responsibility for the registration of places of worship to the Assembly. There are clear efficiencies in administering the responsibilities across England and Wales, and the inevitable cost of separating after over 150 years would appear to be disproportionate to any wider benefit.

The Registrar-General is an independent statutory officeholder—appointed under Section 1 of the Registration Service Act 1953—who exercises functions through the General Register Office, set up under Section 2 of that Act. As the arrangements are well established, there are significant links to, and dependencies on, the provision of civil registration in a unified system across England and Wales, including the use of a single computer system for all registrations. It works well in its current form and it does not make sense to separate out one element of it. I have not heard of any particular groundswell of support for a change in the law in relation to marriage in Wales. It is, in any case, not a devolved matter, and it is a very complex issue, as one can imagine, with the diverse faiths that we have in this country.

However, I can reassure the noble Baroness on one specific point. Looking at faith and integration in the devolved Administrations, I have already been in contact with the devolved Ministers in Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales. I have arranged meetings so that we can discuss issues such as this, and I have had a positive response from Minister Carl Sargeant in Wales and from the other Ministers. We will be looking at issues such as this in the devolved forum, although I have to say that the issue of marriage law is not specifically a matter for the Department for Communities and Local Government; it is a matter for the Ministry of Justice.

However, it is a very wide-ranging issue because of the nature of the conduct of marriages. Some faiths’ marriages are recognised automatically if they take place in particular religious buildings—specifically, those of the Church of England, the Church in Wales and the Society of Friends, and synagogues—but that would not be true of other faiths as things stand. At some stage, this whole area probably will be looked at. However, as I say, this is not my specific ministerial responsibility, so I say that without being certain whether it is proposed at the moment. I do not think it is, but no doubt at some stage it will be looked at.

I am happy to discuss this further with the noble Baroness but, as I say, the Government have no plans to devolve this function. Therefore, I ask the noble Baroness to withdraw the amendment.

[Baroness Morgan of Ely]

My Lords, I will be very brief. I am not quite convinced by the argument that the separation would not lead to efficiency and cost savings—we could say that about almost all devolved areas of policy. The whole point here is that you need to respond to local needs. I am very happy to hear that the Minister has initiated the devolved forum to look at this, and I look forward to hearing more about that. It would perhaps be an idea for us to discuss this further. It is just another one of those things for which I can think of no good reason to retain it nationally. I have not been convinced that there is a good reason and so we will just have to agree to differ on that point. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

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[Lord Howarth of Newport (Lab)]

My Lords, in warmly endorsing the case made by my noble friend Lady Morgan of Ely on the three amendments in this group, I shall add a word on Amendment 73 concerning the regulation of the design and construction of buildings. I shall illustrate why it would be unfortunate if this reservation were to be retained and why my noble friend is right to propose that this should be devolved. We have seen extraordinary vagaries in building regulation policy on the part of the Government of the United Kingdom. For example, the Government committed themselves to a requirement that all new homes should be designed to be lifetime homes by, I think, 2013. That was a commitment made in 2008, but when the moment came in 2013 and it had not been met, when the change to the building regulations was announced in 2015, the lifetime homes criteria were so diluted as to be rendered almost useless and ineffectual.

Let me explain what this is all about. Originally the Joseph Rowntree Foundation and subsequently the Habinteg Housing Association developed 16 design criteria to ensure that the design and construction of new homes is such that they can be easily adapted at minimal cost to become more accessible to people as their lives go on, as they become older or as they become disabled. It makes eminently good sense economically and socially, yet we have seen a reneging on the commitment that had previously been made. The same has happened with another commitment by government to require that new homes should be designed and constructed so as to be carbon neutral; this was to be achieved by 2016. It was hailed as a very progressive and excellent policy in the interests of the environment, but again in the same set of announcements in 2015 the Government reneged on the commitment, and of course it was a turning point that was deplored by everyone who cares about the environment. So what we have seen is a set of decisions on housing design made in Whitehall and at Westminster which have been detrimental to the environment, the construction industry, the architectural profession and surveyors, and detrimental to the interests of disabled and elderly people, all of which will add costs to social services and the health service because the longer you can keep people in their own homes, the better.

I do not want to elaborate on or labour the point any further except simply to say that whereas it is clearly the right of the Government of the United Kingdom, but regrettable when they use it, to march people up the hill and down again and to do these about-turns on policy, and to retrogress in terms of social and environmental policy, I cannot see why these processes should be inflicted on Wales. If Wales wishes to pursue a project to create carbon-free homes and build lifetime homes for the people of Wales, why on earth should it not be entitled to do so? This is just an instance of where I think it would be greatly to the detriment of Wales if the Government insist with the rigour they are applying at present on denying Wales sensible discretion on matters that on any reasonable basis could well be devolved and where we have actually seen the practical effect of policy as made in London being seriously detrimental.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, for proposing these amendments.

Amendment 71 would devolve to the Assembly competence to legislate for how infrastructure funding should be collected in relation to development. This is currently accomplished through the community infrastructure levy, which applies across England and Wales, and the mechanisms we use to raise funding for infrastructure to support development are undoubtedly important. I appreciate the points made by the noble Baroness and I am aware of the issues raised on the matter in the other place. In addition, the Welsh Government have argued persuasively in discussions with the UK Government that the community infrastructure levy should be devolved. I can therefore confirm that, as the Secretary of State announced on 31 October, we are content to devolve competence over the levy to the Assembly and I expect to table a government amendment on Report to achieve this. I hope that that is reassuring to noble Lords.

The noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, made some interesting points, when speaking to Amendment 72, about why she believes that the compulsory purchase law in its entirety should come within the legislative competence of the National Assembly and not be reserved to the United Kingdom Parliament. The debate has highlighted the lack of clarity that exists in the current devolution settlement. As compulsory purchase is a so-called “silent subject”, the United Kingdom Government and the Welsh Government have formed different views on the extent of the Assembly’s legislative competence in this area.

This reservation has been the subject of detailed and productive discussions between the United Kingdom Government and the Welsh Government. The United Kingdom Government consider that legislating on the general rules and framework of the compulsory purchase system, such as the compensation regime in the Land Compensation Acts, falls outside the Assembly’s current legislative competence. However, we accept there are arguments that the Assembly could confer or modify powers in legislation for bodies to acquire land by compulsion for devolved subjects. These would include powers for local authorities to acquire land for housing, planning or education purposes, among others.

I assure the noble Baroness that discussions between the two Governments on this reservation are at an advanced stage and appear to be going well. Discussions are fruitful. I would therefore like to reflect further on her points as the Government conclude their consideration of the extent of this reservation.

Amendment 73, also tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, seeks to remove the reservation concerning building standards and building regulations. The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, also spoke with effect on this. Before responding to the amendment, I note that, through earlier transfer of functions orders and Clause 47 of the Bill, Welsh Ministers will have powers to make building regulations in respect of almost all buildings in Wales. There will now be parity in England and Wales as to buildings for which building regulations may be made by the Secretary of State and Welsh Ministers respectively. As drafted, the noble Baroness’s amendment goes considerably wider than this to devolve competence to the Assembly over building standards. I am aware that this devolution is being sought by the Welsh Government. There are some genuinely difficult issues here in terms of organisations currently exempted from the application of building standards in England and Wales. I am none the less happy to reflect on this further, with a view to returning to it on Report.

I hope I have been able to provide reassurance to the noble Baroness and I ask her not to press her amendments.

[Baroness Morgan of Ely]

My Lords, things are getting much better. We have had three positive replies. I thank the Minister for his constructive approach on those issues. We look forward to working with him much more closely on them in the next few weeks, and to new amendments coming, we hope, on Report. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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Moved by

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

78A: Schedule 2, page 82, line 40, leave out “Sections 144(7) and 146A(1)” and insert “Section 144(7)”

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[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, for moving Amendment 83, which seeks to assign a share of the VAT revenues generated in Wales to the Welsh Government in the same manner that a share of VAT raised in Scotland will be assigned to the Scottish Government following the Smith commission agreement, given effect through the Scotland Act 2016. In parenthesis, I may be wrong but I do not think that Scotland has the right to vary the rate, so it is possible to protect that element.

It is important to understand the purpose of VAT assignment, which is to increase the link between the Scottish Government’s policy decisions and their budget, and thereby further increase their accountability and give them power for a purpose. While assignment does not, as I said, enable the Scottish Government to change VAT policy in Scotland, they have a wide range of policy levers at their disposal which can affect the performance of the Scottish economy and can therefore impact VAT revenues in Scotland. For example, the Scottish Government’s approach to skills, planning, housing and transport all have an effect on the performance of the economy and therefore on VAT—as, of course, can their approach to taxation. The impact of these decisions on the Scottish economy, and in particular on VAT revenues, will in the future feed through into the Scottish Government’s funding.

Of course, these arguments can also be made in relation to Wales. The Welsh Government have a similar range of economic policy levers and one of the Government’s key aims is to increase their accountability and to give them power for a purpose. However, I share some of the caution urged by the noble Lords, Lord Hain and Lord Rowlands, and by the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Ely. The independent, cross-party Silk commission gave full consideration to the case for assigning a share of the VAT receipts generated in Wales and, while it recognised some of the arguments I have set out, it ultimately recommended against VAT assignment in Wales. Unlike in Scotland, there is therefore no clear consensus of support for the proposition. Our focus at this time should be to work with the Welsh Government to implement the Wales Act 2014 and to look at the main thrust of this legislation and take it forward on that basis. I therefore urge the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

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Moved by

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

83A: Clause 27, page 24, line 11, leave out “subsection (9)(g), (i) and (j)” and insert “subsections (2), (3) and (9)”

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Moved by

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

83C: Clause 29, page 25, line 12, leave out “sections 11 and 43(1)” and insert “section 11”

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Moved by

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

90A: Clause 30, page 26, line 35, at end insert—
“( ) In section 43 (provisions with respect to loans made by Minister)—( ) after subsection (1) insert— “(1A) Any loans which the Welsh Ministers make under section 11 of this Act shall be repaid to them at such times and by such methods, and interest thereon shall be paid to them at such rates and at such times, as they may from time to time direct.”;( ) after subsection (2) insert—“(2A) Such sums as are necessary to enable the Welsh Ministers to make loans under section 11 of this Act may be issued to them out of the Welsh Consolidated Fund.”;( ) after subsection (4) insert—“(4A) Any sums received by the Welsh Ministers under subsection (1A) of this section shall be paid into the Welsh Consolidated Fund.”;( ) after subsection (5) insert—“(6) The Welsh Ministers shall, as respects each financial year, prepare an account of sums issued to them under this section and of the sums to be paid into the Welsh Consolidated Fund under subsection (4A) and of the disposal by them of those sums respectively, and send it to the Auditor General for Wales not later than the end of November following the year; and the Auditor General for Wales shall examine, certify and report on the account and lay copies of it, together with his report, before the National Assembly for Wales.”;( ) in the heading, at the end insert “or the Welsh Ministers”.”

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[Baroness Morgan of Ely]

My Lords, I agree with the case eloquently put by the noble Lord, Lord Rowe-Beddoe, and others. A reduction in air passenger duty would help air passengers, support growth and jobs and cut costs for businesses. I urge the Minister to support this amendment.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have participated in this debate on air passenger duty, specifically the noble Lord, Lord Rowe-Beddoe, who has served with distinction in so many areas of public life in Wales, not least in relation to Cardiff Airport. His very good work is being carried on by Roger Lewis.

As we committed to in the 2015 St David’s Day agreement, the Government have considered the case and options for devolving APD to the Assembly, informed by consideration of the impact this would have on regional airports in England, as they happen to be; as things stand, Wales has only the one international airport, in Cardiff.

It is clear from the debate that noble Lords are aware that Cardiff and Bristol airports are about an hour apart, and the population density of the border area there means that more than 4 million people live in the overlapping catchment areas of the two airports. I must take issue with the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, with whom I am normally in agreement as she is normally very fair: the distance from Cardiff and Glasgow airports to the English border is not the relevant one. There is no international airport in Berwick-upon-Tweed. It is a long while before you get to an international airport, which is Newcastle.

[Baroness Randerson]

I understand that difference, but anyone who can get from Cardiff Airport to Bristol Airport in an hour is not obeying the speed limit.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I think the last time I made that journey was with the noble Lord, Lord German, who was driving, but we will gloss over that.

As noble Lords will be aware, those airports are close together, although I accept that it is not always an easy journey, because of the build-up of traffic. However, the nature of the England-Wales border has led to a number of English regional airports raising serious and legitimate concerns about lower APD rates in Wales. As my noble friend Lord Hunt suggested, the rates could go up as well as down; we need to realise that they would not necessarily go down, at least not all the while.

The Government must ensure that devolution does not lead to undue market distortion. Currently we are bound by the state aid rules of the European Union, in any event, which was something that the Silk commission considered long and hard in looking at this issue. I do not have the Silk report in front of me, but I seem to remember that we recommended the devolution of tax on long-haul routes, not overall. It is true that we looked at the analogy of Northern Ireland—which is different because people there have the option of going to Dublin which, being in a different member state, could vary the rates anyway—and we were persuaded just in relation to long haul. I think I am right in saying that no long-haul flights currently take place from Cardiff; I appreciate that that that could make a difference. I am looking at the noble Lord, Lord Rowe-Beddoe.

[Lord Rowe-Beddoe]

There are long-distance flights and they are being negotiated all the time. They go on as charter flights right through the year, so there are long-distance flights. While I am on my feet, may I say that your commission recommended that long haul be devolved? I apologise to the noble Lord, but that was your position.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I am grateful for the clarification on the existing charter flights. I am aware of our recommendation for long haul, although the scope of the amendment is probably broader.

As I said, the position in Scotland is very different because the airports are a long way from the next international airports, so the competition and fairness argument cannot apply. The United Kingdom Government have to look at these things in the context of fairness, and it would genuinely not be fair to an airport in England, which is unable to vary the rates, to compete with an airport that could. Noble Lords must surely see that point.

The point made by my noble friend Lord Hunt, speaking with a north Walian voice, was that this tax, if we were to adopt it, would not help the people of north Wales, for whom the nearest international airport would be Manchester or Liverpool; or, indeed, the people of mid-Wales, for whom it would be Birmingham —I am not sure that this is a plea for Birmingham, but I thought I would get in before it.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

I take issue with that. We have always wanted to develop our connectivity in Wales. There have been attempts to use the Broughton airstrip from time to time; I have flown on a regular service from Broughton to Cardiff in the past, and a very good service it was. Unfortunately, it did not pay.

If it were possible to reduce air passenger duty, Broughton would make a very good place from which to start flights, and I am sure it would be very popular in north Wales. Liverpool and Manchester are closer than Cardiff and Bristol. Edinburgh and Glasgow are closer than Cardiff and Bristol. They do not complain; they compete.

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[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

The point being, my Lords, that they are either, in the case of Glasgow and Edinburgh, both able to vary the rates or, in the case of Liverpool and Manchester, both unable to vary them, so they are on an even playing field, which would not be the case between Cardiff and, for example, Bristol. The noble Lord talks about the possibility of Broughton, but that would not give rise to long-haul flights. If noble Lords will allow me to go down memory lane, I remember going out on the roadshow with the Silk commission, and this was not a popular suggestion in north Wales. I remember people in the audience across the political divide saying that this would be a tax that would help people in south Wales, not people in north Wales.

[Lord Wigley]

The Minister made references to north Wales. I hope that he is not starting to play the old game of playing north against south, because it is to the benefit of the whole of Wales if the Welsh economy flourishes. It is essential that we use these levers to benefit Cardiff and the economy around there. If it has benefits in terms of tourism, that is a benefit to the whole of Wales. We have a number of small airports around Wales. The service from Cardiff up to Valley, for example, is a valuable one. We have an airport in Caernarfon and other airports. What is essential is that we get a coherent policy to work for the whole of Wales and not to have it happen, as is happening again tonight and happened in the House of Commons, that we play the hand for the sake of English airports at the expense of Cardiff Airport and the strategy of the Welsh Government.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, that is an unfair suggestion. I am certainly not playing north Wales against south Wales—I am informing noble Lords of what happened when we were out on the road. There is only one international airport in Wales. If we are talking about APD in relation to long-haul flights, that means only Cardiff in relation to Wales, as things stand; that is undoubtedly the case. I am the first person to stand up for Wales, as I hope that the noble Lord will accept, but we cannot do that in isolation from what is happening in the rest of the country. If the measure being talked about is unfair, I am afraid that it will not see the light of day in the context of looking at what is fair for the United Kingdom. Yes, we must stick up for Wales, but it has to be done in the context of fairness.

I shall progress the argument a little to see if there are other things that we can be doing. As I have said, we do not want to look at the position of market distortions, but we want to help Cardiff Airport if we can. We looked at a review of this to see whether it would be possible to devolve APD to Wales while supporting English regional airports against the impacts of reduced APD. However, there are no obvious options that could mitigate against the impacts on regional airports elsewhere, if devolving the tax to the Assembly meant that Bristol could face 25% fewer passengers. That is significant. I shall ensure that I circulate full details of our review into these options to noble Lords so they can see it.

I hope that noble Lords will accept that this is not a desire not to do what is best for Wales, but a desire to do what is best for Wales while recognising that we cannot fail to be fair to the rest of the country. If that happens in this case to be England, I make no apologies for that. Bristol Airport does not have the ability to vary APD, and we cannot do that in the context of the Bill.

I have listened carefully to the debate, and I shall circulate the details of the review, when we had a look to see if there was anything that we could do. There was a long debate in the Silk commission, and it was not along party-political lines; it was generally divided on the issue of what we could do for Wales, partly because of fairness and partly because of the issue that still exists about state aid and the fear of action in relation to that—valid action. On that basis, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment. As I say, I shall circulate details of the review that we had to see whether there was anything that we could realistically do to help Wales—and, in this context, that means Cardiff Airport.

[Lord Rowe-Beddoe]

I thank the Minister for his response and thank all noble Lords and noble Baronesses who have participated in this short debate. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, who mentioned 102 kilometres. It is an important number because under current EU regulations 100 kilometres has associations with state aid, which the Minister brought up. In Cardiff we have been fighting allegations about state aid—successfully, I am happy to say. I am also very pleased that the elephant in the room was mentioned, not by me but by everybody else. Yes, of course it is Bristol—and this is a pure political gesture. We know it and feel it in ourselves. If we look at the constituency make-up around the city of Bristol and in the south-west, we will understand why. However, I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, disagrees with me for the first time—or I disagree with him.

I will come back on just two points. Cardiff is our international airport, whether it is situated in Ceredigion or in south Wales. We cannot have them all over Wales. We can put up little airports and support ones like Valley and Broughton so we can use them, but Cardiff is our international airport. The status of long-haul flights is under heavy negotiation at the moment and regular routes will be announced soon.

I say to my noble friend Lord Hunt that there is a little group called the Regional and Business Airports Group which represents 32 regional airports in the United Kingdom. In September 2015, it wrote a discussion paper, in which it advocated on behalf of the regional airports in the United Kingdom the devolution of this,

“market distorting tax which impacts far more heavily on smaller airports than larger ones”.

That is quite an interesting document—it was addressed to the energy and transport tax team—and perhaps the Minister could take a look at it.

I thank all noble Lords. It is late at night and I will withdraw the amendment, but I will have to come back at some stage.

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Moved by

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

107B: After Clause 48, insert the following new Clause—
“Financial assistance for inland waterway and sea freight
(1) Section 272 of the Transport Act 2000 (financial assistance for inland waterway and sea freight) is amended as follows.(2) For subsection (4) substitute—“(4) So far as it relates to inland waterways that are wholly in Wales, the power conferred by this section is a power of the Welsh Ministers.(4A) So far as it relates to— (a) the carriage of goods by an inland waterway that is partly in Wales, or(b) the carriage of goods by sea where the carriage concerned is wholly or partly by sea adjacent to Wales,the power conferred by this section may be exercised concurrently or jointly by the Secretary of State and the Welsh Ministers.”(3) For subsection (6) substitute—“(6) In this section—“inland waterway” includes both a natural and an artificial inland waterway;“sea adjacent to Wales” means the sea adjacent to Wales out as far as the seaward boundary of the territorial sea.(7) An order under section 158(3) of the Government of Wales Act 2006 determining, or making provision for determining, any boundary between waters which are to be treated as parts of the sea adjacent to Wales and those which are not applies for the purposes of the definition of “sea adjacent to Wales” in this section as it applies for the purposes of the definition of “Wales” in that Act.””