Company Cars
Lord Berkeley Excerpts(12 years, 9 months ago)
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Earl Attlee
My Lords, I do not accept that company cars are necessarily larger than average. It is up to the employer what size car to supply to the employee. The system of company car tax takes into account the retail value of the car plus accessories and the CO2 tailpipe emissions. A heavier car is likely to, but will not necessarily, have higher emissions and therefore higher costs for the employee.
Lord Berkeley
Is there not evidence that company car drivers tend to drive not only far further but faster and less safely than people who own their own cars? Should not the Government look at that?
Railways: High-speed Rail
Lord Berkeley Excerpts(12 years, 9 months ago)
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Earl Attlee
My Lords, my noble friend is right to say that the hybrid Bill process is long and complicated. He suggests that we should do this in one Bill. I should point out that a difficulty with that is that, while we could secure political co-operation to deal with the Bill as expeditiously as possible, my noble friend will be aware that outside organisations can petition against a Bill as long as they have a locus, and there is nothing that we can do in Parliament to stop that—and I am not sure that we would want to either. My noble friend talked about including provisions for the spur in the initial hybrid Bill. I make no promises whatever, but I will mention his suggestion to my right honourable friend the Secretary of State.
Lord Berkeley
I very much welcome the Statement. It would be helpful if the Minister, through his colleagues in the Commons, could encourage as many Members of Parliament as possible along the route—they may have strongly opposed the project—to look at their constituents’ best interests now and say, “Right, we’ll work with this and get the best mitigating measures possible”. That is what happened with the Channel Tunnel, which I worked on, and High Speed 1. Members of Parliament, led by the noble Lord, Lord Howard, did extremely well in looking after their constituents’ interests rather than opposing the principle.
I have one question for the Minister on the connection between HS2 and HS1. I welcome the fact that there will be a railway connection, which is mentioned in the document, but I am very concerned that it will run for about half a mile along the North London line, which is not only at its most congested there—most people would say that it is full already—but will not be capable of taking any international train of the current design. I do not know whether that is another reason for the scheme not getting any European money, which my noble friend Lord Davies of Oldham referred to; but to make the system work, there has to be a through connection built to the new gauge. I understand from Network Rail that it is technically quite possible to do so, and it would probably be cheaper too.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am pleased to say that opposition to the scheme is waning in the light of the work done by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State and her predecessor, and I suspect that the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, might have done a little bit of work on the side as well. We must not forget that the duty of MPs is to represent their constituents.
The noble Lord asked about the important question of connectivity between HS2 and HS1. The North London line, to which he referred, will support at least three trains per hour in each direction while also maintaining the current service levels. Some gauge clearance will be necessary to accommodate the wider and taller HS2 trains on the North London line. We are confident that this can be achieved with minimal impacts on the local community and rail services.
Transport for London Bill [HL]
Lord Berkeley Excerpts(12 years, 10 months ago)
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Lord Berkeley
My Lords, I welcome the Bill. I think that TfL generally, since its creation, has been a success under both its mayors, and it has certainly improved the general transport in London. Therefore, I congratulate the noble Baroness on achieving a Second Reading for it, which is often quite difficult in this House. I have one concern about Clause 4, which I have already informed the noble Baroness about. Whereas most of the Bill is to do with the financial issues for TfL, which is very useful, TfL has managed to slip in a little clause about selling off land, which one might suggest is necessary to help finance some of the new projects. There is nothing wrong with that.
However, my concern is that TfL needs to take a long-term view on the land that it holds and might need in the future. Experience to date is that it is very difficult to forecast with any certainty what land transport, and in particular railways, might need in the future. One recalls Dr Beeching’s slashing of lines—closing them down over the years because everyone was going to go by car, and how wonderful that was going to be. Now, of course, everyone is struggling to reopen lines. There was a very welcome announcement last week in the autumn Statement about reopening the Oxford to Cambridge line. The problem is that it goes from Oxford as far as Bedford and no further, because the land was sold off for building probably 20 years ago, and there is a problem—somewhere near Bedford, I think—where the line should have gone across a boating lake. Whatever one thought of Dr Beeching, no one thought that there would be such a demand for new rail transport in the future.
I had an issue about 15 years ago with the then British Rail Property Board, encouraged by the Department of Transport, over a freight terminal. I declare an interest as chairman of the Rail Freight Group. There was a lovely piece of land in Battersea that was ideal for building a concrete batching plant. All the materials could come in by rail and then be distributed locally as concrete to the local buildings. However, there was a competition between the concrete company and Battersea dogs home to have this piece of land because the dogs needed more land for exercise. I made the point to anyone who would listen that dogs do not need to be rail-connected, whereas it is quite useful for concrete work to be rail-connected. No one thought it was particularly funny and Battersea dogs home won, probably with lots of extra traffic on the road.
My message is that it is very difficult to forecast what bits of land might be needed for what in the future. We can talk about station extensions, but we know that no one wants to build extra stations or extra platforms because the services work fine at the moment, except when one suddenly discovers that one cannot lengthen the platforms any more or that one needs to lengthen them or put an extra platform in because of the demand. Then one needs land. Extra land might be needed for the maintenance of new bits of rolling stock or small rail freight terminals around London. The problem is that once these bits of land are sold off, it is almost impossible to get them back again at any reasonable price. Compulsory purchase is a very long and tortuous thing and no one likes doing it. Basically, one is always told, “Can’t you go somewhere else?”.
I suppose I do not trust anyone to have a long-term policy to hold on to land. That comment applies to what remains of the British Rail Property Board before it gets subsumed into the Department for Transport, to the department itself, and to Transport for London. They all do it with the best of intentions, but my issue with Clause 4 is that whether one trusts everyone or no one, it is useful not to have the beneficiary of a sale being the organisation that organises the sale. In this case, the beneficiary is clearly TfL.
I would like to see some wording in the clause—and I am very happy to discuss it with the noble Baroness and Ministers in the future—that retains the requirement to get permission from the Department for Transport, which presumably would not have an interest in the land, for such a sale. I would feel comforted that as much protection as possible had been given to these pieces of land, which are necessarily near railways. If they are miles from a railway line, it probably does not matter very much, unless one is going to talk about river transport, and I have not looked at the land holdings for that. That is the kind of wording that I would like in Clause 4, and I look forward to discussing it with the noble Baroness in the next few days.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, on moving her Bill so expertly, and I am grateful for the contributions of other noble Lords. I shall resist the temptation provided by the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, to discuss rolling stock purchases.
I do not oppose this Second Reading. However, I should make it clear that the Government also have some reservations about the powers in the Bill as presently drafted. Officials from the Department for Transport are currently in discussion with Transport for London on these provisions and I look forward to a more detailed examination of them in Committee.
Lord Berkeley
As the Bill was, as I understand it, introduced about a year ago, have these discussions been going on continuously for a year? They are taking an awfully long time if that is the case.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, Transport for London is responsible for progressing the Bill. I am just giving some comments on behalf of the Government.
On the subject of the disposal of land and Clause 4 of the draft Bill, which has been one of the principal subjects of this debate, the Government are clear that the protection of strategically important assets must remain a priority. Furthermore, it would appear reasonable for the arrangements in London to parallel those on the national rail network, where there are restrictions analogous to those currently placed on Transport for London. I should also point out that Transport for London already has the power, without prior consent, to lease operational land for less than 50 years and to dispose of land that has not been operational for five years or more. I understand that Transport for London is looking further at this option and I look forward to its revised proposals.
Renewable Transport Fuel Obligations (Amendment) Order 2011
Lord Berkeley Excerpts(12 years, 11 months ago)
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Lord Berkeley
My Lords, I support the Government’s intention behind the order. However, the fact that it is 20 pages long and that a number of noble Lords have made some pretty wide-ranging comments about its effectiveness indicates just how difficult the system is. Clearly the Government’s heart is in the right place but I think there is a bumpy road ahead, and maybe not just on these regulations.
In transport, we all know that the intention, and the policy, is to reduce CO2 emissions by 80 per cent in 40 years’ time, by 2050. We are a long way from that, as many noble Lords have said. It is very easy to say, “We should do this and we should not do that”, and come up with a black-and-white approach. We need to have a more rounded approach and do everything possible because otherwise there is no chance at all of meeting those targets.
I worry about whether there is any joined-up government going on here. I read last week that the UK was the only EU member state to oppose the Commission’s plan to put a premium on CO2 emissions from the oil sands that are produced in Canada because of the additional CO2 produced as a result of that process. If we are trying to balance what is produced and how it is produced with the CO2 that comes from it, surely the Commission’s plans are very fair and reasonable. We can argue about the percentage but it appears to have a pretty disastrous effect on the environment there and if it is going to produce a great deal more CO2 as well, that should be reflected. I know that that is some way away from these regulations, but it is an example of how one can get tripped up by a policy, possibly without realising it.
The noble Lord, Lord Palmer, talked about some of the other issues to do with the change in policy. We have seen a change in policy recently on solar panels and the grants available for those. Again, it is probably fair and reasonable given the reduction in the prices that the panels are sold for, but it does not help industry invest in the right equipment for reasonable long-term production of whatever we are trying to produce. Again, several noble Lords have mentioned this in respect of the various feedstocks that we are considering today.
I recently came across a plan in Cornwall, where I live, to export domestic waste in 1 metre cubed blocks to Sweden for incineration and creation of electricity. At the same time, there is a plan to build an incinerator in Cornwall. Whether it goes ahead or not does not really matter, but why export it to Sweden when it can be burnt locally? Apparently it is a different type of waste, but if we are going to have to have different types of processing plants for all the things listed in these regulations, and if Government, for whatever reason, are going to change their policies on subsidies or feed-in prices or whatever, it is going to be quite difficult to get companies to invest in it. I question why we want to encourage the burning of sustainable waste from fisheries. There are enough problems with overfishing at the moment and we should not encourage anybody to fish more than they need to and say, “We will make some money out of burning it”.
I fear there are going to be a lot of unintended consequences out of this order and other ones. I do not have a solution. We can try to burn less fuel by using electricity for those vehicles that can be powered electrically, if that is generated in a carbon-free manner. That cannot be done so easily for big trucks. My solution, as chairman of the Rail Freight Group, is to send much more long-distance stuff by rail. However, that is not the only answer. We must try all these different solutions. I plead with the Minister to try to end up with a policy that is as consistent across all the different modes of transport as possible and that will give the businesses that will do this work as much confidence as possible that their investment will get the rate of return that they were promised by government policy when they started down the road.
Lord Reay
My Lords, the two great drivers—to use modern administrative jargon, as the Minister did—of our ruinously expensive renewable energy policy, which is still subscribed to by the leadership of both the Government and the Opposition in this country, are the Climate Change Act 2008—which, it was estimated by the Government of the time, will cost more than £400 billion by 2050—and the EU renewable energy directive of 2009. The Climate Change Act deals with emission reductions; the renewable energy directive provides for increasing proportions of used energy to come from renewable sources. Of course, renewable excludes nuclear.
As was explained, under the directive the United Kingdom has a target of 15 per cent of its total energy and 10 per cent of its transport fuel to come from renewable sources by 2020. The renewable transport fuel obligation has been in place since 2008, and under it an increasing proportion of road transport fuel must take the form of biofuel. According to figures provided by the Department for Transport to the Merits Committee, this has now reached 3.1 per cent. This order amends the RTFO to bring into effect various requirements of the directive that were described by the Minister.
In the various impact assessments provided with the amendment order, there is no assessment of the costs hitherto of the obligation. I find this to be a sorry omission and would be grateful if the Minister will in due course supply the figure. As the Explanatory Memorandum makes plain, supplying biofuels is more expensive than supplying fossil fuels. As to the expected costs of the amendment order over and above the costs of the order unamended, the Explanatory Memorandum offers an estimate of £324 million for the years 2012 to 2030. However, the overarching impact assessment states that the figure falls in the range of £100 million to £800 million. In other words, the Government have very little idea of what the cost will be.
The amendment order will be popular with no one except the Greens. The Government state that of the 4,600 replies to the consultation from members of the public, the majority called for the biofuel targets to be scrapped. This is not surprising as the effect is to add to the cost to the motorist. Given that the Government have just felt the need to postpone an increase due in January on fuel duty amounting to an extra 2p a litre, they will not make their life any easier by increasing in this way the price of fuel. In the sustainability criteria impact assessment, it is assumed that the additional cost to the motorist will peak at 0.4p per litre in 2017 for diesel and 0.1p per litre for petrol. The assessment goes on to state that any further costs will be capped by the buyout price. However, this is set at 30p per litre. I wonder whether that is really the price at which the cost to the motorist will be capped. Perhaps I do not understand this and the Minister will explain how a buyout price set at that level will effectively cap the price to the motorist.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I would not imagine that it impacts greatly on pump prices. I will see if inspiration comes to me in due course. However, the cost is in the impact assessment.
The noble Lord, Lord Palmer, asked how we could support UK production. The RTFO seeks to increase biofuel use. We want sustainable biofuels. The RTFO allows sustainable biofuels to count. We cannot exclude biofuels because they come from outside the UK. If we did, we would face competition issues from the WTO and no doubt from the European Commission as well. Also, such anti-competitive behaviour would be against the interests of UK consumers. The key is sustainable feedstock.
Lord Berkeley
If we have one of the “big four” accounting firms doing the verification and the material is coming from South America or the Far East, will they go there to check it or will they rely on local certification?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, it is up to the supplier to convince the authorities that their fuel is sustainable.
Many noble Lords asked about advanced biofuels. A number of commercial activities are developing advanced biofuels. BP is involved in a joint venture to develop biobutanol. Double counting of waste-derived biofuels and advanced biofuels will increase the financial incentive to invest in advanced biofuels.
My noble friend Lord Eccles asked number of questions. Many of them are key to the debate, so I will go through them and I hope that the answers will cover many other noble Lords’ concerns. He asked about UK production. The UK is currently the largest single supplier to our market. Volumes from the UK have increased over the years. The market share is currently around 23 per cent. The detail is on the department’s website. The noble Viscount asked whether our 10 per cent was not all tallow, et cetera. Tallow and used cooking oil account for a significant proportion of UK feedstocks. Some fuel comes from agricultural feedstocks. Again, the detail is on the website. He asked what happens to our oilseed rape production. We do not have the figures to hand. The statistical data are on our website.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, it is standard procedure to write to all noble Lords who have taken part in any of these debates.
The noble Lord, Lord Reay, asked me several interesting questions. First, he asked if there were any suggestions that adding biofuel to fossil fuel reduces fuel efficiency. Yes, biofuel is less energy-dense but we are blending only low volumes. He asked about the proportion of biofuels supplied today under the RTFO that comes from crops. The latest published figures indicate that two-thirds comes from crops. He also asked about the cost to the motorist to date, which has been between £300 million and £400 million per year at current market prices. He asked whether, after consulting on a number of options, we are keeping the buyout mechanism. The answer is yes. For those who are unfamiliar with the system, the buyout mechanism is in place to provide a safety valve that will protect both industry and the consumer from spikes in the cost of supplying biofuel. It will allow obligated suppliers to buy up part or all of their obligation, rather than meeting it by redeeming the RTFCs that are issued to those supplying sustainable biofuels. The cost of buying out is 30p per litre of fuel that the supplier would otherwise have been obligated to supply.
The noble Lord also asked about the efficiency and effectiveness of biofuels, and whether there were any problems. He will recall that I recently answered an Oral Question in the Chamber about ethanol and petrol, which can cause some problems. However, they are not insurmountable.
The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, asked me what I would say in response to industry concerns that there has been inadequate time to prepare for this and that consultation on the RTFO guidance has been very brief. We have no intention of delaying transposition and implementation. The renewable energy directive was published in 2009 and set mandatory sustainability criteria for biofuels. The implementation of the criteria should not come as a surprise to industry. Those companies that have taken the opportunity to report on a voluntary basis and to establish a sustainable biofuel supply chain will be well placed to meet the requirements of an amended RTFO.
Lord Berkeley
Before the noble Earl winds up, perhaps I could try a variation on the question that the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, posed. The Minister said that processing and selling biofuels was a good investment. He then said that there were no targets for the volume or the price—the sale price or the costs—beyond 2014. Would he recommend anybody to invest in this, or would he rely on the advice of the verification schemes of the big four, who of course will not have a conflict of interest?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, there is a target of 5 per cent in 2014 and each year thereafter. I remind the noble Lord that we will be consulting on the future after 2014.
This is the right time for this order. We did not allow ourselves to be rushed, as we wished to ensure that the legislation was built on robust evidence. The Committee will be aware that there were a number of policy shifts relating to biofuels in the past. We wanted to be clear that this order was based on clear facts and sound science.
We have also taken steps, both with the order and through earlier work, to ensure that industry has been given adequate time and information to prepare for the change. The RED was published in 2009 and there have been regular meetings since then between departmental and industry representatives to discuss the sustainability criteria. The RTFO has been in place since 2008, and those companies that have taken the opportunity to report on a voluntary basis and to establish sustainable biofuel supply chains will be well placed to meet the requirements of an amended RTFO.
I have tried to answer as many questions as possible. I will write to noble Lords on any major points that I have not addressed, and I have already undertaken to discuss one matter with a ministerial colleague. I hope that I have addressed the key issues raised today and that the Committee will agree that the order is the best way to proceed with our UK biofuel policy.
Transport: London and the Regions
Lord Berkeley Excerpts(12 years, 11 months ago)
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Lord Berkeley
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Empey on initiating this debate. He has raised an issue which applies to many parts of the United Kingdom. Northern Ireland is a bit different. I did think of being helpful at Question Time today by suggesting to the Minister that since both parties had rejected the idea of a third runway at Heathrow, much of the domestic traffic could be taken by a high-speed line, and that it should be continued to Scotland and then tunnelled to Northern Ireland. But it might take a little bit longer and it might be a bit expensive. However it does exemplify the problems.
I am not going to talk about HS2 today. I thought I would focus on the connectivity problems of somewhere which is a pretty far-flung part of England—Cornwall, where I live. It is a great countryside and holiday destination, but it has high unemployment, low wages and few opportunities to change that. That is why it has objective 1 status, along with south Yorkshire, west Wales and the Valleys, and Merseyside. The noble Lord, Lord Empey mentioned the objective 1 issues. To quote from the European Commission’s definition, it is an area,
“where the gross domestic product is below 75% of the Community average”.
The problems associated with this and the regions are,
“low level of investment; a higher than average unemployment rate; lack of services for businesses and individuals; poor basic infrastructure.”
That applies to the areas I mentioned. Northern Ireland is actually a transitional one and not an objective 1 area, as are the Scottish Islands. To a greater or lesser extent they all suffer from that.
I go to the Isles of Scilly often, and there is a serious problem with transport there, but I will not mention that tonight because it needs much more debate and justifies another occasion. I shall go into the Cornwall problem in more detail. As the noble Lord, Lord Empey said, it is to do with economic regeneration and connectivity—just as the Government are arguing in favour of the HS1 line from London to the north, if I can put it that way.
It is interesting to compare the rail services between the four objective 1 areas I have mentioned at a time when the Government are about to renew the Great Western franchise. I believe the Minister said that the draft specification would come out in the new year. If we review those four areas and take the centres of Liverpool, Leeds, Swansea and Truro: to Liverpool the journey time to London is two and a quarter hours, and there is one train every hour; to Leeds, it is two and a quarter hours, and there are two trains an hour; Swansea takes three hours and there are two trains an hour, one of them changing at Cardiff. But to Truro it is four and a half to five and a half hours, with one train an hour and 40 per cent of them require you to change. The first train from Cornwall in the morning from Paddington gets to Truro at noon with one change, so you cannot really do a day trip for meetings.
I talked to someone this afternoon who deals with Scottish transport. He said that the growth in traffic within Scotland between the central belt and Aberdeen is quite amazing. I know it is not the Minister’s responsibility, but we can get examples from these places which indicate that more people are travelling by rail, as is happening in Cornwall. The growth in the branch lines and the main line in Cornwall has been amazing in the last year. On the Falmouth branch, traffic has increased by 67 per cent in a year, which is pretty incredible. All the branch lines in Cornwall are growing by 19 per cent on average, as is the main line up through the centre of Cornwall. That is good because it indicates that there is a demand. People see it as important for economic regeneration and clearly they want to use the railway, whether to go to school, university, hospital or work. It is great that it is being used.
I would urge the Minister to consider, in the new franchise for Cornwall, an hourly limited-stop service from Penzance, which would probably take four and a half hours—and I mean a limited stop—and in between services that stop at every station. There should be better branch line services, including Sundays, and when you get to rolling stock, the dear old 125s we have seen for so long could be improved and enhanced. They could have automatic door locking and toilet retentions, which they jolly well should have by now. They should last for another franchise. The noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, might have different ideas, but I think it is quite possible.
It is time that our local services, be they mainline or branch line, stopped being third in the hand-me-down. You start off in the rich south-east and then go somewhere north—I apologise to those who come from the north—and then somehow Cornwall gets the old pacers that go clunkity clunkity clunk along the line. They are lovely trains, and they do have seats. I am encouraged that the county council in Cornwall is talking about possibly helping fund some of these trains themselves. I do not know how they will do it, but it is an interesting idea if they are able to do so. Because of the very long journey time we need to keep the sleeper, which is now extremely popular and means that you can get to a meeting in the morning.
In conclusion, I hope to have demonstrated that in rail connection terms, Cornwall is at the bottom of the four objective 1 areas in the UK. It needs, for the reasons given by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, a regular fast service to London, along with cross country services—they are possible and necessary. We need better capacity and frequency which can slot in and take the pressure off the pretty appalling local roads. It does not need much investment, it just needs a commitment to support objective 1. Of course, objective 1 will run out at some point during the next franchise and we do not yet know what the European Commission is going to propose for the next stage. But if there is any funding from that source to start the franchise off, that would be good.
There are many other projects that could do with the funding, but I hope that Ministers will take the opportunity to look at the position of regional transport. I have talked about Cornwall, but there are many other areas. Others can talk about Wales, and of course the Welsh Assembly Government deals with that. But it would also be nice to think that, within the franchise specification, the county councils could have a voice in a similar way that the Welsh Assembly Government do with the franchises that go to Wales. I look forward to the Minister’s comments and to his acceptance of all these lovely ideas for the new franchise specification which will come out in January.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I start by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Empey, for securing this debate. He put the position of Northern Ireland very clearly. I suggest to the noble Lord, Lord Davies, that my department has a very good understanding of regional needs. The Government’s vision is for a transport system that is an engine for economic growth, sustainable, safer and more secure. In delivering this transport system we will help to improve the quality of life in our communities. Transport networks, including those between London and the regions, provide crucial links that allow people and businesses to prosper. Simply put, increasing connectivity between our great cities and international gateways will facilitate the movement of goods and people and encourage economic growth right across the country. The Government’s plans, including targeted investment in forthcoming transport projects, will contribute to building the balanced, dynamic and low-carbon economy that is essential for our future prosperity. In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Empey, these investments will be sustained. Forecasts show that our country’s transport networks are becoming increasingly congested and that demand for travel is set to grow. This will further exacerbate congestion unless we act.
Let me remind the Committee of some of the action that we are already taking. The Government are providing additional Pendolino trains on the west coast main line. By the end of 2012 all the trains will be in service, thus increasing capacity on that route by around 20 per cent. Further to this, the intercity express programme will deliver a new fleet of 100 intercity trains—not carriages—to replace the existing diesel-powered 125 fleet. This will support and accommodate anticipated growth on routes, including those to the north of England, East Anglia, Scotland, Wales and the south-west. Introducing these trains, combined with infrastructure improvements such as the electrification of the Great Western Main Line, will see journey times fall and capacity increasing by more than 30 per cent during peak hours.
Lord Berkeley
The last announcement I saw from the noble Earl’s department said nothing about the IEPs going to East Anglia or to the south-west. The south-west was going to retain the 125s. Has the policy changed?
Earl Attlee
No, my Lords. It refers to the cascading of rolling stock. I will touch on cascading later. The noble Lord, Lord Davies, asked about rail electrification. The policy of the Government is to support a progressive electrification of the rail network in England and Wales, and we are looking at the costs and benefits of further electrification. We will continue to work with stakeholders to review these schemes and assess their affordability and value for money.
These improvements will play an important part in making better use of our existing network, but they will not be enough to keep up with increasing demand for rail travel. Additional intercity capacity will be needed in future and the Government cannot afford to ignore this problem. High speed rail provides the best way to meet that pressing need. The Government’s proposals for a national high speed rail network will add the capacity that we need, bring faster journeys between major towns and cities, improve reliability of journeys and drive modal shift from air and road to rail. Crucially, high speed rail is an investment in the future of our whole country, bringing economic growth and other benefits to the towns and cities of the Midlands and the north as well as to London. In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Davies, this will help to reduce the north-south divide.
My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Transport intends to announce the outcome of the recent major public consultation and final decisions on the Government’s strategy for high speed rail before the end of the year. While the importance of rail networks should not be underestimated, the majority of journeys between London and the regions are made by road. The strategic road network connects all major English towns and cities, and links in to the road and motorway networks in Wales and Scotland. As your Lordships will be aware, the main road links between London and the regions are the M1, M4 and M6. During the current spending review period, seven schemes are planned on these roads. These will increase capacity and journey time reliability. Six out of the seven schemes are managed motorways, which, through a combination of techniques, including hard shoulder running and gantry mounted variable signing and better co-ordination, will provide around 210 additional lane miles during busy periods. It is also worth noting that three years of research on the M42 managed motorway pilot scheme, which was introduced by the previous Government, has shown that accidents have more than halved since hard shoulder running was introduced.
Air travel has become increasingly popular for domestic journeys. The Government recognise the importance of air links between London’s airports and our regional airports, not least because they provide fast and direct links between cities, which is exactly the type of service that both business and leisure travellers demand. A key part of the Government’s approach to aviation is to seek to create the right conditions for UK regional airports to flourish. The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, talked about the problems of air travel in the south-east. I should like to draw the attention of the Committee to the fact that Newquay airport has scheduled services to London Gatwick and Manchester. New scheduled services to Edinburgh, Glasgow and the east Midlands are due to commence in 2012.
It is important to remember that in the UK, airlines operate in a competitive and commercial environment, and have done so for many years. Individual airlines determine the routes they operate, with take-off and landing slots at major London airports governed by European law. Currently more than 90 return flights are operated between Northern Ireland airports and London, and 600 each week between Scottish airports and London.
We want to see a successful and competitive aviation industry which supports economic growth and addresses aviation’s environmental impact. Aviation should be able to grow and play its part in delivering our environmental goals and protecting the quality of life of communities. Accordingly, the Government have made a commitment to produce a sustainable framework for UK aviation. In March we published a scoping document to begin a dialogue on the future direction of aviation policy, and we will issue a public consultation on a draft policy framework next year. We are also seeking to reform the economic regulation of airports, to put passengers at the heart of the regulatory regime, and to support investments in our airports.
I will try to answer as many questions of noble Lords in the time available. The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, talked about rail travel from Cornwall. As touched on by the noble Lord, Cornwall County Council has an ambitious programme of local rail improvements. We are talking to the council and Devon County Council about devolving some responsibilities for rail to a group of south-west local authorities. A typical journey time from London to Plymouth is just over three hours, and around five hours to Penzance. The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley is correct in his analysis, but there is no easy way of addressing this issue. Trains on this route make frequent calls, so cutting out the number of stops would be one way of speeding up journey times. But the communities at which the trains stop value their calls, and withdrawing those would create difficulties for them.
The noble Lord also talked about what we know as the cascading of used rolling stock. The noble Lord will be well aware that the business cases for rail schemes, including electrification, often rely upon the process of cascading, and it is a complicated jigsaw that the department has to manage.
Lord Berkeley
May I correct the noble Earl? I entirely agree with him that the fewer stops there are, the faster the trains go, but leaving out stops will leave some communities missing. That is why I said that there should be a stopping service in between the fast ones every hour, to pick up the passengers from the communities in between.
Earl Attlee
I am grateful to the noble Lord for that elucidation. The noble Lord asked whether the minimum service levels will be based on the current First Great Western timetable. The proposed approach to the specification of the services for the next Great Western franchise has yet to be developed and would anyway form part of the public consultation.
Many noble Lords have talked about the problem of slot allocation at Heathrow and public service obligations. Perhaps it would be helpful to the Committee if I carefully reiterated the positions. It would be open to the Northern Ireland Assembly to apply to the Secretary of State for Transport to impose a public service obligation on an air route from Northern Ireland to London, should it feel that a case can be made which satisfies the EU regulation on PSOs. If approved, this would permit slots to be ring-fenced at a London airport. As I said at Question Time, there is no other mechanism for the Government to intervene in the allocation of slots at Heathrow or other London airports.
It is important to note that EU regulations state that the PSO must be between two cities or regions and not between individual airports. Therefore, any PSO would have to take into account services to all five London airports. Other European states have exactly the same problems. You may have a region in France that is slightly deprived, and it might want to fly direct to Charles de Gaulle, but it cannot. It might, perhaps, have to fly to Orly and not have the benefit of going to a hub airport. We do not necessarily have a unique problem.
The noble Lord, Lord Empey, suggested that we cannot leave this issue to the commercial market. It is important to note that any PSO on a service to Heathrow could be subject to legal challenge from other airlines. The noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, talked about the requirements in franchise rail operations, but he needs to remember that airline operations are commercial operations, not franchise operations.
Saudi Arabia: Driving Licences
Lord Berkeley Excerpts(13 years ago)
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Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am sure that when we talk to the Saudi Arabian Government, we make that point.
Lord Berkeley
My Lords, surely the noble Lord could say straight to the Saudi Arabian Government, “We are not going to enter into these negotiations until you allow all women of the right age and with the right experience to be able to drive in Saudi Arabia and we will not accept those licences in this country until that is achieved”.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I think the best way of achieving our objective—I think we are clear about our objective—is to apply steady, consistent pressure to states like Saudi Arabia. We will not get them to roll over overnight. No doubt the Saudis give us friendly advice about, for instance, underage drinking and other cultural matters.
Localism Bill
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“(c) in the case of planning permission for the construction of a basement at an existing property, provision requiring the applicant to undertake full consultation with owners of adjoining properties and with any others who would be adversely affected by the construction.”
Lord Berkeley
I am grateful to the noble Earl. This amendment is in my name as well as that of the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner of Parkes. Let us hope that she comes back to your Lordships’ Chamber before we get to the end of this. I feel that these amendments are very important. I have had several close experiences of party wall failures. I am going to talk not about fracking—that comes in a later amendment—but about people extending their basements in rows of terraced houses and things like that. I have had one experience which persuaded me of the need for changes to the legislation. The amendments put down by the noble Baroness will achieve this.
My experience was to do with a garden wall in London. The people next door wished to build a house against the garden wall and to go down to build a basement. They had to go about five feet down and said that they had to take five feet of the garden in order to achieve this, which, of course, is allowed under party wall legislation. They put up a temporary fence, knocked everything down and dug the hole. Then they went bust and the hole stayed there for two years. By that time I had sold the house to somebody who, luckily, was a professional architect and knew what he was talking about. In the end, he took the neighbours to court but had to get two separate court orders; one before they would construct the basement up to ground level and reinstate the garden and another before they completed the wall up to the requisite height. Five years later the wall is still not finished—if you push the top of it, it moves, which is interesting. Having had to go to court twice and suffered two burglaries as a result, I think it demonstrates that something needs to be done. I certainly support these amendments which the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner of Parkes, has put forward and co-ordinated. I am sure that she will wish to speak after me, but in the mean time I beg to move.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, for starting this debate. I will speak to Amendments 206, 224 and 227. Amendment 206 is the one about consultation. I have a somewhat sceptical view about consultation because when I was building my house, we consulted all the neighbours and they all objected just the same, so it is of limited value. However, Dr Thompson, who has done a lot of work and held public meetings on this issue, quoted me an example of someone who consulted their neighbours and agreed that they would have all the cars washed every day and would have everything swept and cleaned. Apparently the whole basement development went through without a hitch. That person has now moved into the basement and the people next door to her have started to do theirs. Apparently, it is absolutely chaotic and they have not consulted or agreed anything, so consultation might be of value but it is of limited value.
It is far more important to deal with the other items which I am covering in Amendment 224. One is the question of precedent. I should declare an interest in that, when I die, my children, in order to get the best value for my home, will definitely want to be able to say that they could have a basement under it, because in that part of London a hotel has just been built with six storeys underground. Other people are building to a lesser extent, but at least half the people in the streets adjoining my house in London have already either got permission or done their basements. Because you cannot go up, the only way you can continue to live in a place with an expanding family is to go down so there is a definite need and a case for basements. That is why I have included in subsection (1) of Amendment 224 the issue of precedents. If an area is already full of basements, why should you not have the same right?
More importantly, subsection (2) refers to a bond or security. When my husband was alive, he represented St John’s Wood as a councillor and I certainly know of a basement there that was under construction for three years. There was another one in Brompton Square. After three years, the people each went bankrupt and with that, the people in the houses on either side of them were faced with a terrible situation. They could do nothing: their houses could fall into the hole or fill with water, as the basement was filling with water. It is quite alarming. A bond or security could be an answer in this kind of situation. It should be easy to find cover as part of your buildings insurance. Subsection (3) refers to “a qualified structural engineer”. Some of the better London boroughs already impose such conditions. They apply them to any such planning consent and the work has to be both planned and supervised. The three subsections in Amendment 224 are important.
Even more important is Amendment 227, which relates to amendments to the Party Wall etc. Act. I am grateful to the noble Lord who gave me some marvellous papers from the RICS, on its practice standards for UK party wall legislation. They were very interesting. The noble Lord is an expert on the subject. If the party wall legislation were updated to cover these matters, there is already a great deal of provision for security in there, which would also cover the consultation issue. As far as I can see, basements are more or less a big city issue. I do not know whether it is a big issue in big cities outside London, but in London it has certainly become one. It is important that something should be done about it.
Localism Bill
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“(3A) After subsection (2)(b) insert—
“(ba) in the case of an application for an order including provision authorising the compulsory acquisition of—(i) statutory undertakers’ land(ii) local authority land,(iii) National Trust land, or(iv) land forming part of a common, open space or fuel or field garden allotment,the effect of the compulsory acquisition of any such land”.”
Lord Berkeley
My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 223ZA and the other amendments in this group. I first apologise to the House for bringing these amendments forward comparatively late in the day. I will be as quick as I can although the amendments are fairly technical, with some pretty detailed arguments behind them.
The amendments stem from the issue of the change in responsibility for decision-making from the Infrastructure Planning Commission to the Secretary of State and provide that Parliament, in the form of the House of Commons only, approves the national policy statement series that is supposed to underpin the new regime. There have already been some minor changes to improve the process of planning major infrastructure projects and to streamline the whole process. I suspect that now that the Secretary of State will be the final decider—that is a political decision—rather than an official, many of the checks and balances that were in the original Act could possibly be dispensed with or reduced in scope to try and simplify the procedures.
I know that these points have been made to officials quite frequently over the past few months and that the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin of Roding, moved similar amendments in Committee. When the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, responded to the noble Lord on 19 July, he said:
“I would like to consider the points he has raised in more detail and consult him and others between now and Report to see whether anything further can be done”.—[Official Report, 19/7/11; col. 1319.]
I am not aware of any meetings that have taken place since then, which we probably all regret in retrospect. I will try to go through these various issues as quickly as I can and hope that we can all have a meeting with the Minister between now and Third Reading to see whether any of these particular issues can be resolved. The Government could then bring back some amendments at Third Reading.
To go through them quickly, starting in not quite the right order, Amendment 223ZD refers to Section 127 of the Planning Act, which requires a separate consent to be sought from the Secretary of State in some circumstances when it is proposed to acquire statutory undertakers’ land compulsorily. Again, now that the decision has been transferred back to the Secretary of State, this is probably an element of gold-plating. I suggest it would be sufficient if the Secretary of State was required to take into account the views of the undertakers.
Amendment 223ZE refers to Sections 128 to 132 of the Planning Act, concerning the special parliamentary procedures which are available if there are objections from various organisations and authorities which end up having to go through a Joint Committee of Parliament, which could take quite a long time to resolve. The restoration of the Secretary of State’s decision-making power could allow these provisions to be removed and for it to be left to the Secretary of State to decide whether to grant consent for an application that affects these types of special land holders. The SPP seems to be unnecessarily complex and gold plating.
Amendment 223ZF refers to Section 137 of the Planning Act, which requires a separate consent to be sought from a statutory undertaker or the relevant Secretary of State in some circumstances where the undertaker’s apparatus is installed. Again, the same comments could apply to that. Amendment 223ZG refers to Section 138 of the Planning Act. It inserts an additional test and a consent from the relevant Secretary of State where the undertaker’s rights to use land are being extinguished.
All these separate consents, which will often involve other Secretaries of State as well, fly in the face of one of the main purposes of the Planning Act regime, which was to create as far as possible a single consents regime. There are many examples I can quote but it is well known to your Lordships’ House and Ministers. It seems that the Planning Act provisions set out in these texts go much further than the two key order-making procedures that the Act replaces—TWA and harbour orders. Taking them as precedent there is an argument for saying that there is a bit of gold plating in here.
It is interesting that on 13 October we heard the first IPC decision which was to allow Covanta’s proposed energy from waste project in Bedfordshire. It was made within the statutory timescale of nine months. I am sure we are all happy to see the IPC sticking to its timetable. However, 43 of the 96 plots of land to be purchased are owned by statutory utilities or local authorities and they have made representations about the project. The Planning Act requires the project to be subject to the special parliamentary procedure which could add six to nine months to the programme, which for a big project is actually quite serious. There is an opportunity to put this right and to incorporate some of these amendments to simplify the process and accept that because we now have the Secretary of State making all the decisions he can take all these issues into account.
I will now mention one or two other items as briefly as possible. There are a large number of things that we really cannot go through at this time of night but there is one issue that refers to the construction of these big projects. It means that regulations made under Section 150 of the Planning Act still require the promoters to seek myriad other consents and regulators before they can start construction. The Infrastructure Planning (Miscellaneous Prescribed Provisions) Regulations 2010 lists 42 separate agencies or authorities from which permissions have to be sought and a further 36 for Wales only, which I find quite interesting. Why is Wales so much more complicated? Again, it would be an enormous help to these projects if there could be just one consent which went through the IPC process.
I could spend a lot more time going through the detail of the technical issues. I hope that it might be possible for those of us who take an interest in this to have a meeting with Ministers before Third Reading to see whether we can encourage the Government to make some changes at that stage. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin of Roding, and perhaps other colleagues, would wish to participate fully in such a meeting. I beg to move.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, has masterfully reduced what could have been a very long speech into one that lasted less than 10 minutes. There has been some confusion about this whole matter. The group of amendments that I moved in Committee on 19 July contained a large number of separate and discrete subjects. The amendments that I moved were concerned primarily with ensuring a seamless transition from the existing IPC procedure to the NSIP procedure. I will not go into the details now but my noble friend Lord Attlee very kindly said that there should be discussions on this. Those who were advising me on this matter did have discussions with officials in the department. The result was that when we approached Report stage, when I asked them whether they had achieved what they were looking for, they said yes. Therefore, I have not retabled those amendments. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, has rightly said, there were other amendments, a lot of which were aimed at the proposition that there should be a one-stop shop.
As I understand it—I am open to correction—for some reason the meeting with officials did not take place until last week. There was a misunderstanding about who was seeking to organise the meeting and make sure that proper discussions could take place. I think that the meeting took place on 13 October, with the result that the large number of amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, were tabled only on Friday and appeared with an asterisk in this morning’s revised Marshalled List. I had not realised that they would appear on the Marshalled List. I have made inquiries and I have a great deal of information on this issue but most of them are the same as those we discussed on 19 July in Committee, although there are one or two additional ones to which no doubt attention will be drawn at some stage. Whether it was the fault of my noble friend on the Front Bench or of those who have been advising us, the fact of the matter is that there have not been the discussions that there should have been and that my noble friend offered when he wound up the debate on 19 July. Therefore, we are in a slight difficulty on this. I hope that the request of the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, that serious meetings should be held before Third Reading so that we can, if necessary, retable the amendments, or some of them, at that stage and have them debated will be taken note of.
Lord Berkeley
My Lords, I am extremely grateful to the Minister for a very full response on this group of amendments. It is incredibly helpful to have it on the record. I am sure we will be happy with the response on some of the amendments, but it will certainly be necessary to read in detail what the Minister said to see the extent to which it is worth taking the amendments further to try to simplify the objective of a one-stop shop.
Before I withdraw the amendment, I want to put on record that I do not think any of us were trying to blame the Minister for not having a meeting. We are all guilty, or we are all innocent. We did not have it, and we have a lesson to learn from that. I am sure that, if we find something we would like to discuss before Third Reading, the Minister will, as usual, be pleased to see us. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Berkeley
“Directions relating to railway projects
(1) In the Planning Act 2008 after section 35A insert—“35B Directions relating to railway projects
(1) Subsection (2) applies if a project for the construction or alteration of a railway includes—
(a) development which is within section 14(1)(k), and(b) development which is permitted development and which is to be carried out wholly in England.(2) The Secretary of State for Transport may, in response to a qualifying request, direct in the case of any specified development within subsection (1)(b) that—
(a) development consent is not required for the specific development, or(b) development consent for development within subsection (1)(a) may also be granted for the specific development.(3) A direction under subsection (2) can only be made if the Secretary of State for Transport thinks that the making of the direction will promote the efficient and timely development of the rail network.
(4) Subsection (5) applies if—
(a) a project consists of development which is within section 14(1)(k), and (b) the Secretary of State for Transport thinks that the project, taking into account its size, its potential effect on the railway network and all other relevant circumstances, is not of national significance, whether by itself or when considered with any other related project or proposed project in the same field.(5) The Secretary of State for Transport may, in response to a qualifying request, direct the development to be treated for specified purposes or generally as development for which development consent is not required.
(6) If the Secretary of State for Transport decides to give a direction under subsection (2) or (5), the Secretary of State for Transport must give reasons for the decision.
(7) In this section “qualifying request”, in relation to any development, means a written request which is made by the person proposing to carry out the development and which specifies the development, and—
(a) in the case of a request for a direction under subsection (2), explains why the conditions in subsections (1) and (3) are met; and(b) in the case of a request for a direction under subsection (5), explains why the conditions in subsection (4) are met.”(2) In section 15(5) (development for which development consent may be granted) after “associated development” insert “or development in respect of which a direction has been given under section 35B(2)(b)”.”
Lord Berkeley
My Lords, I assure the House that I shall be quicker than the last group of amendments. This is something that has come up quite recently, when we have tried to see how the IPC and the Planning Act 2008 should be applied to railway projects. It appears that there is no minimum size for railway projects to have to go to the IPC under the Planning Act. The example that has been brought to my attention is the electrification of the Great Western main line between Airport Junction, which is near Heathrow, and Cardiff, where Network Rail may have to demolish certain bridges or do other works. It mainly has the permitted development rights for those works but some of them may creep a few yards outside those rights. It has been suggested that any such creep would need permission through the IPC, so the amendment suggests that it would be nice if the Secretary of State were minded to direct that specific and maybe small developments outside the limits of permitted developments could proceed without any other process, on the basis that they were quite small.
It is not just about the electrification of the Great Western main line. The East West Rail project, roughly between Oxford and Milton Keynes, has found two places where the existing railway has never had permission. One little connection between two lines was built in the last war and nobody can find the documentation giving it permission; it may be with the British Rail Property Board but it has not found it. There is another place where the route that got permission went through a farm and the actual railway went round it; clearly the person owning the farm at the time saw somebody all right and there was a gentle deviation, which of course was no problem 150 years ago. Quite rightly, the promoters of this line want to get the legal situation correct before they start building.
There is a problem here which requires some change to the Planning Act, probably to Section 14. Perhaps the Secretary of State might be minded to bring forward regulations to find a way of getting some smaller railway projects permissions in a process outside of the IPC, which is meant for big projects and takes a long time to do. One can debate whether the problems here are with the Transport and Works Act, an ordinary planning application or something else, but I am sure the Minister will understand them. Maybe he has a better solution. I am grateful to him for the meeting that he arranged some time this summer. I cannot remember when it was now but we had a good discussion about this. What we do not want is for our new Secretary of State for Transport to turn round in six months’ time and say that the electrification is held up for a couple of years because they cannot get permission for a couple of yards’ extension to a bridge and that it has to go to the IPC. On that basis, I beg to move.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, my noble friend has brought forward what seems to be an entirely reasonable proposition. I look forward to the Minister’s reply. I add only that I do not know whether the same issue arises in relation to projects other than railway projects. Perhaps the Minister can cover that as well.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, first, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, for his work in this area. In answer to the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie of Luton, I have really considered this matter only in respect of railways but I think that noble Lords will find my answers satisfactory. The noble Lord and I did indeed have a meeting on this—ironically, I turned up a few minutes late.
Amendment 223A would amend the provisions of the 2008 Act which relate to railway projects. The amendment seeks to introduce two new powers. The first relates to a case where a railway project contains both development for which consent is required under the 2008 Act and development for which permitted development rights exist. In this case, the amendment seeks—on application from the promoter—to permit the Secretary of State for Transport to direct that the permitted development should be dealt with under the Planning Act along with the development for which consent is required under the Act. I confirm that Section 35 of the Act already provides a power of direction capable of achieving this. A new power is not necessary. The second relates to a situation where development consent is required for a railway project under the 2008 Act. In response to a qualifying request, if the Secretary of State for Transport thinks that the project is not of national significance, he may direct that the development should be treated as development for which consent under the Planning Act is not required.
My DCLG officials have discussed this matter with the Department for Transport and Network Rail, and have agreed that a carefully considered threshold would be preferable to such a power, as it would provide greater clarity on what should be considered major infrastructure. We have therefore agreed that secondary legislation should be brought forward under Section 14 of the Planning Act to set a suitable threshold for rail projects, as suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley. This will be taken forward by the Department for Transport. With this assurance, I hope that the noble Lord will be prepared to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Berkeley
I am extremely grateful to the Minister for that very positive response. Perhaps I could tell my noble friend Lord McKenzie that it applies only to railways because in other major project areas under the Planning Act there is always a minimum threshold. For some reason, one was not done at the time for railways—everybody thought that railways were big ones, and nobody picked it up. I suppose I should ask the Minister when the regulations will be tabled, but I am sure that he recognises the importance of that for certain projects. If it would help in drafting these things I am happy to meet with him, along with people from Network Rail and other infrastructure managers if they are interested. However, that seems to be a very good way forward and I am very grateful to him. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Berkeley
“Hydraulic fracturing of underground rock
(1) Within 12 months of this Act being passed, the Secretary of State shall, by order, amend the Planning Act 2008 as follows.
(2) In section 14(1) (nationally significant infrastructure projects: general), at the end insert—
“(q) the hydraulic fracturing of underground rock”.”
Lord Berkeley
My Lords, this is a completely different subject; it is to do with something which is colloquially called fracking. I raised it very briefly in Committee, but we were short of time then and I am grateful to the noble Baroness for the letters that she wrote, dated 5 September. Since that time I have had further thoughts about it. I have had quite an amazing amount of correspondence from people on the basis of a very short entry in Hansard. That is why I have tabled this amendment tonight, because it needs a different solution.
Very briefly, fracking comprises drilling a hole that is probably several kilometres under ground, pumping in water and unspecified chemicals, and sometimes apparently causing an explosion in the hope that gas will come up to the surface. There have been some pretty horrendous stories from the United States, where this is apparently quite common. There, houses have collapsed or settled seriously while water sources, and therefore water supplies, have allegedly been poisoned. In one instance, I believe that gas came out of the water tap, which must have been quite frightening.
I am not saying that that is going to happen here. However, the press release relating to what I believe is the first attempt at fracking in this country, somewhere near Blackpool, by a company called Cuadrilla Resources—the noble Lord, Lord Browne, an ex-chairman of BP, is apparently its chairman—said that it was excited because that could produce 200 trillion cubic feet of gas. I do not know what that means to the ordinary person in the street but it would be something like 30 years of gas. It all sounds very nice, with mouth-watering profits. But what will happen to the people who might be affected not by just the drilling and the things that I have mentioned, but by extra traffic on the roads, construction work and everything like that?
I know that there would be licensing from DECC and others. But if it were to happen around the country, I do not think that one can expect a local planning authority to have the resources to give something that is pretty technical due consideration, especially when it is balanced by potentially exciting numbers of new jobs and extra revenue from rates. It would be unfair to expect local planning authorities to give it the consideration that it deserves. I believe that the right solution is to make another change to Section 14 of the Planning Act to create a new type of project to include hydraulic fracturing of underground rock —it is not called “fracking” in the amendment.
This new type of project would then be subject to the IPC process but, equally importantly, it would have to have a national policy statement in which all these questions that I have been suggesting and more could be investigated, responded to, debated in the House and consulted on. We would all then have confidence that if this process could be done safely with minimum upset to local residents, it could go ahead on a national basis. If not, it will be in trouble. That is the purpose of my amendment. I beg to move.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
My Lords, it is right that the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, has brought this matter back to the attention of the House. I have attended a number of lectures and presentations about the development of shale gas. As he said, it is perfectly true that there are substantial areas of shale several kilometres or more under the surface of this country, which could be, in appropriate circumstances, a source of gas for this country. However, a good many people have said to me, “But you would never be able to deal with this properly in a country that is as crowded and as fully populated as the United Kingdom”.
It has happened in the United States—indeed, it is happening on a very substantial scale—but there are wide open spaces there. It is apparently likely to happen in Poland where, again, there are substantial areas where it could be done without interfering with the life of the normal population. But in the crowded areas of western Europe and the United Kingdom, there is a widespread view that this is not likely to happen.
I, too, have had correspondence from a farmer in west Lancashire who has written in terms of being extremely anxious about what is happening. Yes, we had the small earthquake outside Blackpool, which is perhaps a foretaste of what may come. But the real concern is the huge amount of surface activity that has to go on at regular intervals. There is a limit to the amount you can drill horizontally before you need to drill another hole down and have all the equipment and plant at the top to deal with it.
There is quite a movement now to say that there should be a moratorium on this until it has been examined a great deal more thoroughly. I do not know enough about it. The noble Lord, Lord Browne of Madingley, clearly regards it as very important: he is the chairman of Cuadrilla, which is the only company that I am aware of that is drilling so far in this country. One needs to treat this very seriously, as it is a serious prospect. If we could find an acceptable process for recovering very large quantities of shale gas, that would replace a lot of the North Sea gas, which appears to be coming towards the end of its life. At the same time, however, if there are enormous disturbances of local populations and communities because of a huge rash of surface activity, this solution would seem to be worse than the problem.
I do not know what the answer is—whether it is a moratorium, or it is simply sufficient to say that it will come under the NISP process. As I said to the lady who wrote to me, it is going to be jolly interesting to learn what the Minister says in answer to this amendment. All I know is that there is a widespread view that it is not going to catch on in this country for the reasons I explained a few moments ago. I look forward hearing my noble friend’s response.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am sure my ministerial colleagues in the Department of Energy and Climate Change will take all relevant matters into consideration.
Lord Berkeley
I am grateful to noble Lords who have participated in the debate. It has been a good debate in which a number of different views have been expressed. The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, made a good point about thresholds. As I raised it in a previous amendment in respect of railway projects, I think it is relevant to learn from something that possibly went wrong before.
I am grateful to the Minister for agreeing to speak to his ministerial colleagues and, if appropriate, to bring this matter forward by secondary legislation. I am therefore pleased to withdraw the amendment.
War Memorial Gardens
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Lord Berkeley
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will introduce legislation concerning the use of war memorial gardens for entertainment purposes.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the Government have no plans to introduce legislation concerning the use of war memorial gardens for entertainment purposes. It is for local authorities to take decisions on such matters where they own the land. In doing so, we would expect them to take into account the sensitivities of the local communities involved.
Lord Berkeley
I am grateful to the Minister for that Answer. This Question arises from an application for two months of corporate events in Trinity Square Gardens, a memorial in the City to the many hundreds of thousands of merchant seamen who lost their lives in the major wars. As noble Lords will know, this has generated widespread disgust. I congratulate the mayor and Tower Hamlets Council on rejecting this application in the past 24 hours, but can the Minister offer an opinion on whether it is appropriate that those who caused the financial crisis, often got bailed out by the taxpayer and are still awarding themselves mouth-watering bonuses should ever be allowed to dance around memorials like this?
Localism Bill
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Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, perhaps it is a little impertinent of me to deny a compliment that has just been given by the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, to my noble friend Lord Greaves, but he congratulated my noble friend on tabulating the items, when I think my noble friend would say that he copied it out. The noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, referred to familiarity and we will all have recognised the words.
I would like to use this opportunity to ask the Minister a question. I have heard her say on a different occasion that two of the five principles are not as appropriate to planning as they are to other parts of government. These two principles are the use of sound science and the promotion of good governance. For my part, I must say that they both seem entirely appropriate. On the subject of science, let me just mention climate change and flooding. Governance, after all, is used both in the creation of local plans and in dealing with planning applications, as well as more widely. So they both seem to me to be appropriate. If that is to be a part of the Minister’s response, I hope that my noble friend can spell out why that is so. I am open-minded to hearing it, but I will be interested to hear the detail.
Lord Berkeley
I have some worries about the whole concept. Many noble Lords have talked about what should and should not be on this list. It is a very good list, and the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, certainly deserves a lot of credit for putting it together, if that is the right word. But there is not so much in it about development. There is lots about sustainability, which of course I love, but my slight worry is that—notwithstanding the debate going on at the moment about the presumption in favour of development, which I am sure we will talk about later—if there is to be development, it has to be done in an environmentally friendly way but must also be reasonably cost effective.
A Treasury report was produced by Infrastructure UK last year. It said that the civil engineering developments in this country are probably 60 per cent higher than they are in Germany, and goes on to say that the labour costs are much the same. The conclusion that one should probably draw from that is that the difference is to a large extent taken into account with the complexity of planning. Of course we need to have planning but, as my noble friend said just now, if we go too far down that road it will be a lawyers’ bonanza and take a very long time and nothing will get built. In the end, we are in the end going to be competing with other European and world countries about what we produce.
It is useful to have a definition. I think that we need more in it about the development side, so that is sustainable. But we must also recognise that one of the benefits of having something like this in the Bill, and possibly the national planning policy framework, is that it enables us and other people to help to hold the Government to account. Governments in the past 20 or so years, ever since John Major apparently invented the world “sustainability”, have all paid lip service to sustainability and a green environment until life got difficult. We have the 80 per cent carbon reduction target. The last Government made some attempt to go towards them, and this Government are also making some attempt, but if you look to where they have got to, in my view, many people will think, “Thank goodness that we will have retired and may even be dead by the time it comes into force in 40 years’ time—so it does not really matter”.
Yesterday the Department for Transport announced a trial of longer lorries. That is great for the environment, is it not, and great for road accidents and the quality of life? There is need for much more joined-up government right across these things, and some clauses like this would help us to hold the Government to account. I believe that we can get growth and development in a sustainable way, and this is a good contribution towards it—but possibly putting it in the national planning policy framework would be easier, and we could have a much better debate about what should be in it.
Lord Lucas
My Lords, I find myself very much siding with the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, on this. Sustainable development is rather like well-being; it is a concept that we think we know when we see it, and occasionally we will try to pin down what it means in definitions like the one we see before us. But actually it means different things in different times and different places, and should do so.
The development of a nuclear power station, looked at on a very local scale, is completely unsustainable, but on a national scale it may be sustainable. So scale is very important. Likewise, something which on a national scale may be an undesirable policy may be just what a village needs in order to flourish.
Again, when you set out a definition like this, even without including design or spirituality, you find that in every individual instance bits of the definition do not apply, or apply in very perverse ways. How does one apply great chunks of this definition to, say, the siting of a sewage farm? There are bits of it that do not seem to hang in there at all under those circumstances—
Lord McKenzie of Luton
Yes, I did. The point I was making was that the document came at the start of the recess and not everyone out there got that letter—and there are plenty of people out there with a very keen interest in the NPPF. We as parliamentarians may have done; others did not. If in fact the Government are happy and prepared to have these processes then let us get it enshrined in the legislation so that it can operate in the future as well. As I said, an assurance of a proper consultation and parliamentary process could have lessened those fears and potentially obviated some of those very unpleasant exchanges that took place.
The presumption in favour of sustainable development, the definitions of sustainability, the implications for the green belt and green space, the impact on housing, particularly affordable housing, and town centre policies are all matters that go to the heart of our national life. Planning is an important democratic means of mediating between different interests, in the public interest. There must surely be due process and a role for Parliament. Despite some misgivings, I understood that it worked for the national policy statements. I took it from our exchanges in Committee that the Government were not averse to this approach—indeed, if they are going to facilitate a process before Parliament, that would seem to support that conclusion. In the light of experience of the NPPF to date, I invite the Government to accept this amendment. I beg to move.
Lord Berkeley
My Lords, I would like to ask the Minister a simple question. Under the Planning Act 2008, the national policy statements—which I think everyone welcomed at the time—require parliamentary approval and debate. I do not think that there has been any problem with that. They require consultation and they have had it, although some of them are receiving it rather later than some of us would like to see, though I am sure that they will come eventually. It seems to me that the national planning policy framework is a sort of parallel document to the national policy statements for planning and in respect of other smaller developments which do not come within the scope of the NPSs. As the NPSs have a link to the planning legislation, it seems logical that the national planning policy framework also should have one. I welcome the consultation and the debates that we are going to have. It would, however, seem to make it a simpler and clearer structure if there was a reference in the Localism Bill to the NPPF—not what it should say or anything like that, but just a reference.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, there could have been no doubt that the draft of the NPPF was coming out: we have had several discussions in this House and I made it quite clear that it was coming. It has been on the website since the day that it was published and some of the detailed comments on it bounced out almost the following day. So there has been a good opportunity for people to form their views. That is what the consultation is all about, and having got the 10,000 or so responses—indeed it may have gone up by another 2,000—by today, there will be ample opportunity to hear people’s views. I hope that this will happen in a balanced way, because some of the discussion so far has been extremely unbalanced and not at all helpful. I think that it is calming down now and proper discussions are taking place against a real background. We can move on from there.
We are going to have two opportunities to discuss this further. In reply to the question from the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, the national planning policy framework is not an adjunct to the policy guidance statements; it is in replacement of. Somebody told me how many thousand pages the policy guidance statements run to and it was something like 1,500. They are becoming very big, very wide, and very difficult to work through to discover the actual policy. The framework is an attempt to cut those down without losing the emphasis and the position that they took.
That is the reason why the Government will be listening very carefully to what is said and what the consultation brings forward so that we do get this right. It is extremely important as it is the background to all planning decisions in the future and for the understanding of the things that we all hold precious—the heritage, the green belt and everything that makes up planning. So the consultation is real and will bring results. My honourable friend Greg Clark, who is in charge of this Bill, has already made it clear that he is very open to discussions on this.
I do not propose to worry the House much more about this. I hope that I have answered the relevant questions. If I am not careful, I will get myself in trouble—and having said that I was a nice, balanced Librarian, I do not want to do that. Having made my point about policy statements, I had better read out what this says because otherwise I will get the wrong thing in Hansard. The national planning policy framework is a very different document from national policy statements. National policy statements are the key documents for deciding on major infrastructure proposals. The national planning policy framework is used to inform the preparation of local plans. Local authorities must only “have regard to” the national planning policy framework rather than follow it specifically. I am sure that noble Lords understood that clearly, and I apologise if I misled the House on the way.
I am looking forward to the debates that we will have, particularly the one tomorrow. Perhaps I may comment briefly on the substance of Amendment 203L, to which the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, spoke. The amendment would put in the Bill provisions about the form and content of the NPPF—I ask noble Lords to forgive me if I stop talking about “the national planning policy framework” because I am tripping over the words all the time. I have heard the arguments about the need for the NPPF to have legislative force to reflect its importance. However, there is no doubt that everybody—the public, councils and the development industry—understands the importance of the NPPF. It is unnecessary to legislate further to give it status. Existing planning Acts already require a local planning authority, when making plans, to have regard to the policies and guidance issued by the Secretary of State. That is why the NPPF is government policy. Government planning policy and guidance is also capable of being a material consideration in the decision-making.
It is clear that the NPPF will bite in the same way as the previous policy guidelines on local decisions, and in a way that is understood. Putting it into legislation would risk changing the legal status of the framework in relation to local plans. It would cut across the primacy of locally prepared development plans. That is not what any of us want. The amendment would also mean that the policies of the NPPF would have to relate to addressing climate change. We all agree that that is crucial, but it is entirely unnecessary to legislate in this manner. There already exists a climate change duty on local plan-making. Local communities preparing plans can be in no doubt about planning’s important role in climate change, and about the Government's commitment to this issue. The draft NPPF makes it crystal clear that this is the situation as regards primary legislation. We propose that planning should fully support the transition to a low-carbon economy in a changing climate, taking full account of flood risk and coastal change. There is no need to go any further than this.
The noble Lord’s amendment also requires the planning framework to be subject to a formal appraisal of sustainability—here is that word again. The argument has been made by a number of organisations and we take it seriously. However, we are clear that the framework does not trigger the requirement for a strategic environmental assessment or a sustainability appraisal. It is not a plan or programme required by legislative, regulatory or administrative provisions, as set out in the Environmental Assessment of Plans and Programmes Regulations 2004. However, alongside the draft NPPF, the Government have undertaken to publish a draft impact assessment. We have invited comments on this, and will update and publish a final impact assessment.
In conclusion, the Government are entirely willing to enter discussions with all interested parties on the content of the framework to ensure that we get it right. We do not want to deliver a document which raises doubts about what we are trying to do, or one which leaves any doubts in the minds of those who have to work with it. Its status is clear so it does not require statutory provision. I therefore hope that the noble Lord will feel willing to withdraw his amendment.