Algorithms: Public Sector Decision-making

Lord Addington Excerpts

Wednesday 12th February 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for bringing this subject to our attention. The noble Lord, Lord Giddens, went for the big picture; I will, rather unashamedly, go back to a very small part of it.

Bias in an algorithm is quite clearly there because it is supposed to be there, from what I can make out. When I first thought about the debate, I suddenly thought of a bit of work I did about three years ago with a group called AchieveAbility. It was about recruitment for people in the neurodiverse categories—that is, those with dyslexia, dyspraxia, autism and other conditions of that nature. These people had problems with recruitment. We went through things and discovered that they were having the most problems with the big recruitment processes and the big employers, because they had isometric tests and computers and things and these people did not fit there. The fact is that they processed information differently; for example, they might not want to do something when it came round. This was especially true of junior-level employment. When asked, “Can you do everything at the drop of a hat at a low level?”, these people, if they are being truthful, might say, “No”, or, “I’ll do it badly or slowly.”

The minute you put that down, you are excluded. There may be somewhere smaller where they could explain it. For instance, when asked, “Can you take notes in a meeting?”, they may say, “Not really, because I use a voice-operated computer and if I talk after you talk, it’s going to get a bit confusing.” But somebody else may say, “Oh no, I’m quite happy doing the tea.” In that case, how often will they have to take notes? Probably never. That was the subtext. The minute you dump this series of things in the way of what the person can do, you exclude them. An algorithm—this sort of artificial learning—does not have that input and will potentially compound this problem.

This issue undoubtedly comes under the heading of “reasonable adjustment”, but if people do not know that they have to change the process, they will not do it. People do not know because they do not understand the problem and, probably, do not understand the law. Anybody who has had any form of disability interaction will have, over time, come across this many times. People do it not through wilful acts of discrimination but through ignorance. If you are to use recruitment and selection processes, you have to look at this and build it in. You have to check. What is the Government’s process for so doing? It is a new field and I understand that it is running very fast, but tonight, we are effectively saying, “Put the brakes on. Think about how you use it correctly to achieve the things we have decided we want.”

There is positive stuff here. I am sure that the systems will be clever enough to build in this—or something that addresses this—in future, but not if you do not decide that you have to do it. Since algorithms reinforce themselves, as I understand it, it is quite possible that you will get a barrage of good practice in recruitment that gives you nice answers but does not take this issue into account. You will suddenly have people saying, “Well, we don’t need you for this position, then.” That is 20% of the population you can ignore, or 20% who will have to go round the sides. We really should be looking at this. As we are looking at the public sector here, surely the Government, in their recruitment practices at least, should have something in place to deal with this issue.

I should declare my interests. I am dyslexic. I am the president of the British Dyslexia Association and chairman of a technology company that does the assistive technology, so I have interests here but I also have some knowledge. If you are going to do this and get the best out of it, you do not let it run free. You intervene and you look at things. The noble Lord, Lord Deben, pointed out another area where intervention to stop something that you do not want to happen happening is there. Surely we can hear about the processes in place that will mean that we do not allow the technology simply to go off and create its own logic through not interfering with it. We have to put the brakes on and create some form of direction on this issue. If we do not, we will probably undo the good work we have done in other fields.

Sport and Recreational Facilities

Lord Addington Excerpts

Thursday 23rd January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Morgan of Cotes]

The noble Baroness is absolutely right. I mentioned earlier the Youth Investment Fund, which is not just about places and people, although those are important, but about entitlement. There are many schools in the independent and state sectors which do arts provision extremely well, and we want to build on their example. Also—and my noble friend the Minister is working very intensively on this —I feel that we should make sure the fund offers arts opportunities for after-school activities as well. The noble Baroness also mentioned the important word “creativity”; we want to see much more focus on that.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, I welcome the Minister to her new role. The Government have a situation where schools that used to provide many of the facilities for junior clubs in their start-up role are increasingly finding doors locked. What duty is being placed on those schools to get in touch with the governing bodies of these sports to let them know what facilities are potentially available, possibly upping the revenue of these schools?

[Baroness Morgan of Cotes]

The noble Lord asks a very good question. As I said, I am about to talk to the Secretary of State for Education; I will put that on the agenda of the meeting. The noble Lord is right that facilities do not have to be offered just in school premises. Working with local community facilities or other sports facilities, for example, and making sure that those links are built is important. If he has any specific examples he wants to share with me and the department so that we can pursue this, I would be interested to receive them.

Football: Racism

Lord Addington Excerpts

Thursday 16th January 2020 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Addington]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what support they have identified that the Football Association requires to address levels of racism in football.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, racism and all forms of discrimination have no place in football or society. We must confront this vile behaviour. Last February, the Government brought together football stakeholders, including the FA, for an anti-discrimination summit, and in July the football authorities set out their list of actions to tackle discrimination, including increasing the minimum sanction for discriminatory behaviour, introducing stronger education measures and improving reporting systems. I met with the FA yesterday and discussed their actions on discrimination. While progress is definitely being made, obviously there is more to do. We will be calling on the footballing authorities for a further update shortly.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

I thank the Minister for that response. However, can the Government give us an undertaking that they will undertake some of the activities which the Football Association has brought forward in its snappily titled “mandatory education programme offer,” ensuring in particular that every fan knows what constitutes racism and the effect that it has not only on players but on fellow fans?

[Baroness Barran]

I understand the urgency in the noble Lord’s question and encourage him to look at the FA’s website—I am sure he knows it better than I do—which has excellent links to education resources. The Government cannot ensure that every person has seen it, but we are working closely with and keeping very close tabs on the FA to ensure that it takes this responsibility very seriously.

Football Association and Bet365

Lord Addington Excerpts

Thursday 9th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran]

The noble Lord makes important points about the timing of all of this, and I acknowledge the important role that your Lordships’ House has played in bringing issues of problem gambling to the fore. I am sure that noble Lords will continue to do that. The noble Lord talked about timing. My honourable friend the Minister for Sport in the other place spoke to the FA this morning and will be meeting its representatives next week. He made it extremely clear that he expects them to explore every possible avenue to bring this situation to an end as quickly as possible.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, I agree with the general tone of what has been said so far about gambling being potentially damaging and that we should not be advertising it on something that is seen by many of the young. But will the Government undertake to remove some of the financial burden that falls on groups such as the FA to make sure that we can play grass-roots sport? The FA has to fund and support grass-roots pitches when, in places such as Germany, local government does that. Will the Government look round and see that government action will make this sort of activity more likely if you are mean with supporting things such as grass-roots sport?

[Baroness Barran]

The Government have taken the issue of grass-roots sport very seriously and recently announced more than £500 million of investment in exactly that.

Birmingham Commonwealth Games Bill [HL]

Lord Addington Excerpts

3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 23rd October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)]

My Lords, I echo what has been said and warmly second the list of thanks that was offered so well—especially as I was included in it. In addition to those listed, I thank my noble friends Lord Rooker and Lord Hunt. We heard wonderful disquisitions from the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, and I know there will be many more in the future. I have already welcomed the noble Baroness to her post and I very much look forward to working with her, but: she must be very careful in that job because, if she looks to her right, she will see what just might happen to her.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, I welcome the noble Baroness to her role. This is a very happy and really unusual moment in this House, in that we have something that we all agree on. I encourage everybody to, first, apply for tickets, and, secondly, to look to sponsor another big sporting event soon.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords, briefly, I associate myself with the expressions of support we have already heard. There is no question but that Birmingham has done both the Commonwealth and sport a great advantage through its willingness to take on the production of these Games at short notice after a previous candidate had to withdraw. So far as we can see, the arrangements are proceeding at pace and are well judged. On this occasion, we can comprehensively wish Birmingham a good strong following wind.

Football: Racism

Lord Addington Excerpts

Tuesday 15th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran]

I thank the noble Lord for his reflections. Like him, we welcome the positive action that was taken so promptly by the Bulgarian Government last night and note the resignation of the president of the Bulgarian FA. The noble Lord is right that there are wider forces at work here. We have worked for a long time to try to stamp out racism in all parts of our society, but particularly in football, and we continue to be vigilant.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement and for the sentiments she expressed. It took concerted action by both the football authorities and the Government to clean up the game here to the extent that we have. What steps are being taken to get the Governments of all the UEFA countries to take action together to make sure racism is not tolerated, so that there is consistency of action across the piece?

Professional Football

Lord Addington Excerpts

Wednesday 4th September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran]

My Lords, I know that the noble Baroness is expert on the subject, having listened to her speech in the summer, and I share with the House my pleasure that Bolton has been rescued. Obviously, I cannot comment on the fraud investigation or some of the other allegations around the club. The Government’s view is that the English Football League has a real interest, along with fans, in making sure that clubs are managed prudently. It must balance following its procedures with ensuring the integrity of the competition and maximising the survival of the clubs. I am aware that the point she makes about the ownership of grounds affects the smallest clubs outside the league the most. The department is very alive to that at the moment.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that this is not a new problem but is just the most recent chapter in it, and that all the professional team sports in this country—rugby union, rugby league and football—have suffered from this for a while? They all have models of good practice, none of which seems to work that well. Is this not a classic recipe for making the Government bring everybody together so that they can find out what works and when?

[Baroness Barran]

I absolutely agree that this is not a new problem; noble Lords will know better than I do that this has gone on for a while. I am the proud owner of a few shares in Bath City Football Club, which had a community buyout. I am possibly not the most loyal supporter, but there it goes. I absolutely agree that this is not a new problem. The Government have done some convening and bringing together, but we are very clear that our role in this is to stay independent.

Birmingham Commonwealth Games Bill [HL]

Lord Addington Excerpts

Wednesday 24th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, I come in as a tail-end Charlie on this. On the subject of disability, no matter the Long Title of the Bill, the positive experience of London 2012 hangs over it; it was a great cultural success and, as a result, the level of expectation has risen. To use flower show standards, it got its gold; everything else is expected to be at least a silver gilt. We have raised the bar and we must make sure that this level is maintained. Part of that is making sure that people know what their duties are and that people outside know what they are expected to do. Amendment 4 is a step towards this and makes my Amendment 9 totally superfluous. However, we need to know what comes with it.

When the Minister speaks again, I encourage him to guide us—and make sure that Hansard has it—to where we can find out what these duties are, so that people can look them up. If you have responsibilities that nobody knows about, and nobody knows where to check, those responsibilities die. This is the experience with lots of legislation on disability generally: if you do not know that you are supposed to do it, you do not do it; if you do not know that someone should have done it, you do not report them or pull them up on it. It is one of those patterns. There is lots of dust-gathering legislation to which this has happened. I hope the Minister will take this opportunity to let us know what is going on.

The Minister has listened. He has done something that on the face of it makes things better, but how it relates to the regulation and the stuff behind it is the real question here. I hope I am not encouraging him to speak until this time next week, but we need a guide to what is going on and how this will be implemented. If we get that, many of the problems that we are having will probably occur less frequently, although there is no silver bullet.

I too have the information from the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson. It is probably as good a description of all life’s little irritations writ large as you could possibly want. Nothing stops people taking part; it just takes the edge off it every time. We did not do that in London. We should make sure that we try to meet the standard wherever we can. I hope the Minister will tell us the legal situation on that, the penalties for it and how to make sure that if anyone is not coming up to standard, they know about it and so does the rest of the world.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, said, this is actually the heart of the debate we have been having on the Games, concentrated in one very small group of amendments. As he says, it may well be that we can take all the tricks that are on the table—if that metaphor actually works—at the same time if we get this right. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Addington, said, that will largely depend on the Minister’s response because a lot of this is about how we judge the need to ensure that the legislation that goes through this House—and, presumably, very quickly through the other place thereafter—contains the minimum requirements appropriate for Games of this scale and stature. As I have mentioned before, it is important to note that these Games, unlike the others that we have looked at before, are very much in the direct control of the Government because the organising committee will be a non-departmental public body and the accounting officer of the department will therefore have legal and statutory responsibilities, as well as those that we might want to have placed on the organising committee and its staff in the approach to any other Games.

We want to ensure that the requirements are appropriate but not an undue burden on the organising committee in its main role, which is to produce a brilliant Games for the audience and the participants, to make sure that there is an appropriate and long-lasting urban regeneration programme for the people of Birmingham, and that we have a legacy—a point that has been made by others who have spoken—that is not just immediate but long-lasting and affects the culture and health of everyone in this country as a result of seeing, and possibly experiencing, the Games. That is a big ask for legislation that is just a few words on a piece of paper, but the issue can be addressed.

I turn to Amendment 8, which is in the name of my noble friend Lord Griffiths of Burry Port, but I confess that I had a hand in it. It follows from the point made in Committee that we are not thinking widely enough if we restrict our concern to how the Games are received across the country, and indeed across the world, and do not think about the broadcasting element. This issue came up recently in relation to cricket but it has much wider resonance. The way that this country deals with listed events sometimes runs counter to a common-sense approach to what should be available to people, particularly in this case. I say this without in any sense trying to use it as an excuse. If the Government are taking responsibility for funding a proportion of the Games, they must also take on the responsibility of relating to the people who are paying for them through taxation. One way in which they could discharge that responsibility is by making the Games accessible through free-to-air terrestrial television, but that would require a change to the rules on the listing of events. The amendment therefore seeks to press the Government to look again at the way in which Ofcom deals with that and, if necessary, to amend or impose conditions relating to the broadcasting of the Games on a free-to-air basis. I look forward to the Government’s response.

That is the method that I want to use to test whether government Amendment 4, to which the Minister will speak shortly, meets the issues that have been raised throughout the House, including by the noble Lords, Lord Moynihan and Lord Addington, my noble friend Lord Hunt and the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, in a very moving speech. If we are to place all our hopes on the Government’s amendment to ensure that the annual reports are extended or carried on in legacy terms by Birmingham City Council, as my noble friend Lord Hunt said, the annual reporting specified needs to be sufficient to capture the spirit laid out in the amendments from the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, and others.

Amendment 4 says that the report must include certain elements about the delivery of the Games and details of how they promote the values of the Commonwealth Games Federation, which, as has already been mentioned, includes a huge amount of additional activity. I accept all that; the Commonwealth Games has done a great deal of work on these issues, which is reflected in the values. However, I hope the Minister will recognise that proposed new subsection (2)(c) simply refers to,

“details of what the Organising Committee has done to ensure that Games events are accessible to disabled people”.

The wording used by the noble Lords, Lord Moynihan and Lord Addington, and the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, in Amendment 5 is much more appropriate. I am not seeking a change to the wording, but I wonder whether the Minister recognises the very obvious point that by not mentioning that the Games participants will include disabled people, and all that implies, the question remains as to why that wording is not used. The simple reference to “accessible” does not pick up the richness of the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, in the absence of the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson. However, the recommendations could be improved if we had more of a sense of what will be in the charter.

On sustainability, the amendment framed by the noble Lord on behalf of the Government refers at subsection (2)(d) to,

“details of what the Organising Committee has done to promote sustainability”.

However, if we read across, the charter refers not just to sustainability but to specific development goals and COP 21. It is therefore much richer and more engaged with what the issues are about.

I will not go through all these points, but I accept, as I think noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, does, that if we got behind Amendment 4 and it became the main focus of what we are trying to achieve in setting standards for the Games that are not burdensome but will reflect the importance of human rights, the elimination of fraud and corruption, the carrying out of sustainable development activities, and most particularly—because it is the most important aspect—the acceptance that these Games reflect the totality of human existence, whether able or disabled in terms of performance, and that they therefore must be accessible to all, not just in terms of physical presence but on broadcasting media, then I think we will be moving in the right direction. But it is important that we hear from the Minister whether he thinks the amendment, as drafted, does that. If not, might he be prepared to reflect on what has been said during this short debate and bring it back at Third Reading in a slightly better form to reflect the issues raised here?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Addington]

My Lords, I do not object to the idea of a hotel room tax, providing it is done correctly, but I do not think that the Bill is the right place to do it. The bid was won on certain terms and references, and this was not in there. Also, I would not complain too loudly, because an Answer from the Government that somebody found for me states:

“The government’s other commitments to the Games, including the underwrite of the organisation and delivery of the Games and a number of guarantees, will remain in place until the end of the 2022/23 financial year”.


That is a pretty good deal. Changing the deal you have at the last minute will be a danger. We should discuss the idea further at another time; I do not think that this is the right time.

Also, the Birmingham city plan—let us face it, we are talking about Birmingham City Council—does not mention this at all. I suggest that there will be another time when we can go into this properly, but making sure that this tax stays local is important, if we are going to do it at all. Now is not the time or place. We have a pretty good deal that has been agreed by the people involved. We should stick to it.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords, I support my noble friend in these two amendments. I shall try not to repeat anything that I said in Committee, but I want to express my disappointment with the ministerial reply on that occasion, which I thought, for the Minister, was unusually unhelpful on this proposal. I remind noble Lords on both sides that this is not the imposition of a new tax; it is merely a look at whether such a tax is feasible—no more, no less.

I listened to the noble Baroness opposite, who is a former Business Minister, I recollect, plead on behalf of business that there should not be another imposition. I remind her—having said that I would not repeat anything that I said in Committee, I will break what I said pretty early on, but I know that she was not present in Committee—that, coincidentally, I used the example of the Crowne Plaza hotel in Birmingham and how its nightly rate varied in the course of a week. If I recollect rightly— she will correct me if I am wrong—the Crowne Plaza hotel is part of the International Hotel Group to which she referred.

Again, I must say gently to her that if the price of one of its hotel rooms can vary by £130 in the course of a week, those small businessmen, the franchisees on behalf of whom she was making her plaintive cry, will not really go bust if we put another pound or two on our hotel rooms, as do many other cities throughout the world.

I express particular disappointment at the contribution from the Liberal Benches. I understand through the usual channels that this amendment would have been pressed to a Division had the Liberal Democrats indicated any support. They are always telling us how radical they are: here is a chance not to be particularly radical but merely to support a proposal for an inquiry into a tax that would assist something as worthy as the Commonwealth Games in Birmingham—yet without even hearing the sound of guns, before the guns had been loaded, they have fled the battlefield and said that they do not wish to be involved.

[Lord Addington]

When you have an underwriting from government in a deal like this, do you want to change the rules after it comes out? I actually think that the Government have done well on this. That is why I first joined these Benches: I am not afraid to agree with people who I normally disagree with. If the noble Lord cannot handle that, well, there we go.

[Lord Snape]

I think that I can handle most things that the noble Baroness throws at me in this place. Of course, it is not the first time that the noble Lord has defended the Government; indeed, the Liberal Democrats spent some years in alliance with them from 2010—and much good it did them, I might add on the subject of elections. Neither the noble Lord nor the noble Baroness mentioned the fact—I hope that the Minister will—that there is, it is said, a £40 million gap, which must be closed before the Commonwealth Games go ahead. If the gap cannot be closed in this way, how will it be closed?

Perhaps the noble Lord who speaks on behalf of the Liberal party should not knock an idea that seems enormously attractive to me. I fought three elections as a local councillor, only one of which was successful. If I were still a member of my local authority—that would be difficult because it was abolished some years ago—the thought of a tax that did not penalise my voters would be enormously appealing. That is the sort of self-interest that one normally hears from Liberal councillors—although it normally depends, of course, on which end of the village they are and the group of people that they are addressing at the time.

I go back to the question of yield management, as I think it is called—as a former Business Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, will know that. If it is good enough for hotel chains to vary the prices of their rooms on a nightly basis, surely it is permissible to look at the possibility—no more, no less—of a tax with which, I repeat, we are familiar with across the world and which, to give the city credit, Edinburgh hopes to introduce in the near future.

I will repeat one more phrase from my speech in Committee: we all know that the objections are based on the Treasury, because it hates the word “hypothecation” and hates the idea of anybody else applying taxes because that takes away some of its power. Again, I remind the Minister that the Conservative Mayor of the West Midlands—I did not vote for him; I accept that he won against the odds and will have to fight for re-election in 2020—has publicly announced his support for the scheme. Looking at his former partners on the Liberal Benches, it comes to something when a Conservative mayor is more radical in his views on taxation than his former colleagues in the Liberal Democrat party.

So I hope to get a more sympathetic hearing from the Minister on this occasion. Surely we could look at something like this; it is not revolutionary or Marxist or anything like that. Surely it would benefit the city, the region and, most importantly, the funding of the Commonwealth Games.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)]

My Lords, it has been an interesting debate that has been not without its entertainment, as we have enjoyed over the past few minutes. I shall speak to Amendment 7.

In Michael Heseltine’s recent report Empowering English Cities, I say to the noble Lord, Lord Addington, reference was made to the West Midlands joint authority, and the Birmingham Games of 2022 figure as a part of what will generate economic activity in the next five years in that area. It is on the list of the authority and I am glad to refer to it.

[Lord Addington]

My Lords, I was merely referring to the fact that this tax was not mentioned in the report.

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port]

I am glad to have that intervention, which does not affect what I want to say in the slightest.

The thin-end-of-the-wedge argument interests me. I was once an academic. I do not know who remembers Microcosmographia Academica by FM Cornford. In academic circles, the thin-end-of-the-wedge argument was one sure way that nothing would be done. Let us remind ourselves that the wedge is not always a bad thing. In my house it does considerable work with uneven floors. So, let us take things as we find them. I heard the proper arguments made by the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, and from the Liberal Benches, and I also heard the proper arguments from our Benches. We have been debating this for 31 minutes and 17 seconds. The report to the All-Party Parliamentary Group for Hospitality took its time—considerably more than 31 minutes and 17 seconds—and all the arguments that have been rehearsed on behalf of the business community were heard and are properly registered. All the arguments that were put for the possibility of such a tax have been rehearsed and are part of the argument. Having heard both sides in detail, we get to the recommendation that has already been mentioned—forgive the poor cataract-less ancient Peer putting his glasses on:

“The All-Party Parliamentary Group for Hospitality is calling for greater examination of the potential impact of a tourist tax on consumers, businesses and the economy before taking any decisions on the principle of introducing one”.


The question is open; evidence is needed. A project to find some evidence would not be a bad thing so that we can take 32 minutes and 24 seconds in a year’s time to say that the study has been done, the respective arguments have been seen and weighed and we can now with some confidence recommend either that this goes forward for a two-year period so that we can see what happens and evaluate it carefully, or that the evidence is conclusive and we had better drop it. That is where the APPG left things after a lot of consideration. I have listened to it very carefully. The arguments against and for are valid, and the conclusion is uncertain. Something is needed to give us more certainty when we look at the matter again. I suggest that Amendment 7, which I tabled, might do that. It is provisional, time-limited, place-limited and linked to the Commonwealth Games. Where is the wedge in that? It is specific. It has a shape. It is not pointed to be rammed in further later, but has a definite geometrical shape.

I have heard from the council in Birmingham. It tells me that it has had discussions with DCMS during the bidding process and since about alternative funding streams, including a hotel occupancy tax. It was given assurances by DCMS that it would assist the council in talking to the Government about those alternative funding streams. The council’s argument goes on to the points we have heard already. So, the DCMS Minister is facing me and DCMS has had some discussions and made a commitment to talk to the Government about the possibility of achieving an object rather like the one we are putting forward now. Perhaps the Minister can tell us what the substantive remarks and commitments referred to in the document were. I cannot see what we have to lose.

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[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, the Government have listened carefully to the issues regarding Clause 24 raised by noble Lords during previous stages of the Bill and to the comments of the DPRRC. I am pleased that the House is in agreement on the need for a well-understood and supported Games transport plan. By giving this plan a statutory footing, we are ensuring that it has the appropriate authority and weight to deliver on the transport measures required for an event on the scale of the Commonwealth Games.

While it has always been our intention that the body directed to prepare a plan would be a local authority or combined authority, we recognise that simply providing for “a person” may not offer the assurance needed. That is why we have brought forward amendments setting out that only a local authority in England or a combined authority may be directed to prepare the plan. The House can be assured that an appropriate body will receive this direction and can be held accountable. To ensure that Parliament is appropriately sighted, we will make a Written Ministerial Statement when the direction has been made by the Secretary of State. Further, once the draft transport plan has been made available, we will deposit a copy in the House Library.

I would like to highlight the importance of placing the Games transport plan on a statutory footing. This, alongside a requirement on local traffic authorities to implement the plan, provides the clear framework needed for the effective delivery of Games transport operations. It will facilitate co-operation between transport partners, minimise the risk of disruption and disagreement and give the Government the assurance that they need. I beg to move.

[Lord Addington]

My Lords, I would just like to thank the Minister for listening when these issues were raised, I think by me. The Delegated Powers committee report on that raised a real point and the Government have responded, so thank you.

[Lord Moynihan]

My Lords, in echoing the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Addington, I want to say as a former member of the DPRRC that I particularly welcome the Written Ministerial Statement that the Minister has offered today. I thank him for listening so carefully to the arguments made in Committee.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Addington]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his speech. Of course, I am slightly disappointed that I could not get everything, but half a loaf is better than no bread, and there is some validity in the noble Lord’s statement about some of the other powers in the Bill. I would have preferred the affirmative procedure, but on this occasion we might let it go.

[Lord Moynihan]

My Lords, I also welcome the Minister’s announcement on the affirmative procedure for compensation claims. We looked at this in some detail in Committee and I am very grateful to him for responding so positively. I am disappointed that the negative procedure will continue to apply for Games locations and advertising. Will the Minister’s department continue to engage with the Advertising Association? It has been proactive in having constructive discussions with the department on this Bill, and I know it is disappointed about the negative procedure continuing in this context. However, it has made some useful points and it would be useful for those discussions to continue in another place.

Lotteries: Good Causes

Lord Addington Excerpts

Thursday 18th July 2019 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Addington]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to ensure that lottery providers who operate on a national basis, other than the National Lottery, spend a minimum of 25 per cent of their profits on the funding of good causes, which are currently funded by the National Lottery.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of Hyde) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government’s response to the consultation on society lottery reform was published two days ago, on 16 July. As set out in the Gambling Act 2005, all society lotteries must return a minimum of 20% to good causes; the average is 44%. We expect that lotteries will use the administrative costs saved as a result of higher sales limits announced earlier this week to return a higher share to good causes.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

I thank the Minister for his reply. Does he accept that when we speak about lotteries, we speak about “the” National Lottery? Indeed, in a Statement on Tuesday, he repeatedly referred to its “unique position”. We have two synthetic national lotteries operating and funding from the National Lottery has guaranteed long-term support which has turned us from a third-rate sporting nation to a first-rate one. Can the players in this field guarantee this long-term support? If they are not prepared to do this, can they be restricted to operating as the other society lotteries do?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

The noble Lord is right: we stressed in the reforms that we would preserve the unique status of the National Lottery. That is why we did not raise the annual sales limit by as much as was suggested in the consultation, and by as much as some of the larger society lotteries wanted. We said that the Gambling Commission would take specific evidence and look at the evidence for raising the annual sales limit to £50 million to make sure that it did not impact on the National Lottery. As far as sport is concerned, the Gambling Commission has found no evidence that society lotteries have impacted on the National Lottery in any way. Indeed, they are complementary; in both sectors, lotteries have increased in recent years. I know that sport is of interest to the noble Lord, but there is no reason to think that funding for sport will reduce. Indeed, for next year’s Olympics the amount of money has been underwritten by the Treasury.

Lotteries Regulation

Lord Addington Excerpts

Tuesday 16th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury]

I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement made in the other place. On this side, we welcome the Statement but somewhat regret that the Government have taken seven years to make up their mind about to deal with the society lottery sector. Although society lotteries were in existence at the time that the National Lottery was established, I do not believe anyone expected then that they would continue to thrive without having some effect on the National Lottery.

The Statement makes mention of the extraordinary sums that have been made available to good causes through lotteries—something we should all celebrate. This country embraced both the National Lottery and the society lotteries. It is right that the Government review regulations from time to time to make sure, as the Minister said, that they achieve a balance between enabling the sustainable growth of society lotteries and protecting the unique position of our UK-wide National Lottery.

I have three questions for the Minister. First, the Statement made it clear that there is concern about the proportion of funding going to good causes, the level of executive pay and other transparency issues. It suggested that the Gambling Commission may need to look closely at this, to the point where legislation may be required. Does this mean that the Government are concerned about the efficacy of the present regulations, does it apply to all society lotteries, and can a bit more be said about the timescale for this process? I am concerned that, if something is going wrong, we should act relatively quickly.

Secondly, can the Minister say a bit more about the timescale for the regulations bringing in the new annual sales limits and prize funds? When there was a change to the lottery limits in 2009, the implementation was immediate, but we are hearing that these changes might not happen until 2020. It is not clear what evidence is being sought on the ambition to move to £100 million per annum. Can he say more about that and about what sorts of timescales will be involved?

Thirdly and finally, on the age limit for National Lottery products, is there any need for consultation? Surely we all accept that to gamble you need to be 18; you cannot walk into a casino below that age. I do not think further consultation on this is necessary. There should be one rule: if you want to gamble, you need to be an adult and the minimum age for gambling products should be 18. It is as simple as that.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, on these Benches we welcome the Statement and much of the direction of travel on this. It may not be the way that we would do it, but it is certainly not something on which we would want to make a huge stand. What I particularly like about the Statement is that it emphasises again and again the fact that we have a National Lottery that does certain things and has underpinned certain types of activity in our society which simply would not have happened without it.

John Major has said on several occasions how important he thinks it is; he brought it in because the dread hand of the Treasury would not otherwise have allowed us the types of sporting heritage, assistance for the arts, et cetera, that we have had. It was a realpolitik response to what was going on, and it should be preserved. I like the definition that these are two separate things: the National Lottery and the society lotteries.

When it comes to the details of, for instance, the age limitation, I am afraid much of my gut reaction is with the noble Lord, Lord Collins. I cannot see any real argument against raising the limit in relation to the instant scratchcard. There is that instant little buzz—although it is a long time since I have done it—that anyone who has bought one will recognise: “I just missed that; maybe I will have a second go”. That is not something we should be giving to a 16-year-old. If we keep the age limit at 16 for the National Lottery, the wait for a draw is sometimes several hours; by raising the age limit to 18, we would be removing that. I hope the change comes in.

The framework for the society lotteries could probably be described as “steady as they go”. Will the Minister give an assurance that things will be speeded up after the long wait we have had? Will there be greater clarification on when we can expect everything to come again, just to emphasise the development and the structure of what is going to happen in the future? I know he has mentioned it before, but a little more clarification would help. Will he also give a little more reassurance about the fact that we will make sure that the National Lottery and the society lotteries are kept apart, doing different things for different functions?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I thank both noble Lords for their comments. Certainly, I completely agree from this side of the House with the noble Lord’s remarks about the noble Lord, Lord Judd. I hope he is back here soon.

The noble Lord, Lord Collins, asked three questions. As far as transparency is concerned, it is not that there is worry about the regulatory regime at the moment. Society lotteries have been regulated by the Gambling Commission for more than 50 years and we think they have been a success. There are not many larger society lotteries, but we need to keep an eye on them. If we increase their limits, we need to make sure that there is transparency. It is only right that we should review that and look at some of these problems. That does not imply that we are worried that there is a problem at the moment. The Gambling Commission will review the evidence on this.

The noble Lord also asked when these limits will be implemented. The plan is that there will be secondary legislation in the autumn, subject to parliamentary time—I always have to say that. The plan is to have the statutory instrument in the autumn, and then the implementation will take place when the Gambling Commission has to change the licence requirements in April, so we expect this to be in 2020. We want to get on with this, so we aim to do the legislative part when we come back in the autumn.

On the minimum age for the lottery, on the one hand, we are celebrating the fact that for 25 years the National Lottery has been a tremendous success—it has raised £40 billion for good causes; on the other hand, if we want to change it, or prepare for changes in the new licence competition, we need to get evidence on this. That is why we are asking for a consultation to change what has been a successful lottery. We recognise that there are different dangers associated with instant gratification games, such as scratchcards, and the lotto, which is the least harmful form of gambling, according to the evidence. It is reasonable to ask for consultation on that. Both noble Lords mentioned under-16s.

The noble Lord, Lord Addington, was very clear and asked me to emphasise that we will keep the National Lottery and the society lotteries separate. We do not want to do anything to harm the National Lottery. Just over 90% of the money that goes to good causes is from the National Lottery, and just over £300 million, or 9.2%, is from society lotteries, so they are very different beasts. One reason we did not raise the limit to the level that some people wanted was because we wanted to make sure that the National Lottery, which is a monopoly lottery—that is the most efficient method for getting money to good causes—continued to be the mechanism that gives the large, life-changing payouts, and that society lotteries, which most people play to support good causes, continue in that vein.