Business of the House

Kevin Brennan Excerpts

Thursday 20th April 2023 Commons Chamber

[Penny Mordaunt]

I thank my hon. Friend for her question and for all the work she has done to make this important step a reality. I can inform her that Lord Bellamy wrote to the Scottish and Northern Ireland Governments in November last year to encourage them to follow suit and meet the sustainable development goal in particular. I understand that the devolved nations are now considering that matter. I personally found it a matter of deep regret that when we introduced the Civil Partnership (Opposite-sex Couples) Regulations 2019, people in Scotland had to wait a further six months to benefit from that legislation. I encourage both Scotland and Northern Ireland to follow suit when able to do so.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

May we have a debate about the treatment of refugees from Afghanistan? I recently visited a group who are housed near Cardiff, including consultants, doctors, people who had translated for us in Afghanistan and people who fought alongside our armed forces there. Even after all this time since they were evacuated, they have still not been housed and face great difficulty getting into employment. They also told me that they were beginning to suffer from abuse because of the dog-whistle politics on refugee status that is sadly going on at the moment. Without pivoting to such dog-whistle politics, will the Leader of the House take the opportunity to explain to the public that those refugees helped us in our foreign policy aims in Afghanistan, and tell us what the Government would do in such a debate to explain what will be done to help them?

[Penny Mordaunt]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for raising this important matter, which I know many Members will be concerned about. It is a key example of where we want to help not just those in greatest need, but people to whom we have a particular moral responsibility. Afghan refugees, especially those who served alongside us, supported our armed forces, helped us with translation and other services, or worked with some of our aid agencies, are exactly such people. I shall make sure that the relevant Minister has heard what the hon. Gentleman has said. If he wishes to pass me details about the particular site in Cardiff, I would be happy to pass those on too.

Business of the House

Kevin Brennan Excerpts

Thursday 30th March 2023 Commons Chamber

[Penny Mordaunt]

I thank my right hon. Friend for raising this incredibly important matter, which I know many Members will be concerned about. As he knows, there will be Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office questions on 2 May, but given that that is a little way off, I shall make sure that the Foreign Secretary has heard his concerns today. I know the Foreign Secretary and his Ministers and our network overseas take many opportunities to raise their concerns about these matters and other human rights abuses, which is what this legislation is. We also recognise the impact it has on other areas for that country, including its economic development. It will stifle investment in that nation; companies will not want to invest or set up businesses there under that kind of environment. It is an incredibly serious matter.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

I am glad the Leader of the House has pledged to publish the list of Ministers, but there is no point in publishing it if they do not reply to correspondence. I wrote to the Culture Secretary on 7 September last year as chair of the all-party group on music about our report “Let the music move” and never got a reply. After much prompting, I finally tabled a written parliamentary question on 8 February asking when Ministers would reply to my letter. The answer came on 20 February saying that they would reply to the correspondence “as soon as possible.” Does the Leader of the House think there is any chance I might get a substantive answer—even now I still have not had one—some time this decade?

[Penny Mordaunt]

I have no argument with the hon. Gentleman’s point. Correspondence should be timely; sometimes on rare occasions there are reasons why it is slightly delayed—most Members want substantive answers as opposed to just timely ones—but the situation he has described is not appropriate. I will be very happy to follow up on his behalf in getting the answers he needs.

Point of Order

Kevin Brennan Excerpts

Thursday 9th March 2023 Commons Chamber

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. In an exchange earlier with the Leader of the House, I raised the asylum case of a constituent of mine whose husband was executed by the Iranian regime. Not many things shock me in this place, but I was genuinely shocked that the Leader of the House—quite rightly doing what she does to defend Government policy—failed to even emote a simple scintilla of sympathy about the situation that my constituent has been placed in. Is any mechanism available under the Standing Orders by which the Leader of the House might be able to come to the Dispatch Box and express sympathy, and perhaps even do what she has done for other constituents by offering to take the case to the Home Office for further scrutiny?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

The Leader of the House is at the Dispatch Box and clearly wishes to respond, so I will first ask her to do so.

Business of the House

Kevin Brennan Excerpts

Thursday 9th March 2023 Commons Chamber

[Penny Mordaunt]

We will all be familiar with the process of making a complaint, and that sounds like a very odd set of circumstances. If the hon. Lady wants to pass on the details to my office, I will be very happy to raise it with the Department of Health and Social Care to get its advice.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

Will the Leader of the House consider a debate to recognise the real human beings caught up in the Home Secretary’s asylum backlog? My constituent, whose husband was executed by the Iranian regime and who has applied for asylum, has been told that she will have to wait at least six months, despite my representations, just to get an interview and at least another six months before she can expect to get a decision. To use the Leader of the House’s own words, how does that honour our moral obligation to refugees?

[Penny Mordaunt]

The measures we are bringing forward will help us on our moral obligation. This requires some pragmatism. We have particular moral obligations to particular people in particular parts of the world. We have historically wanted to give the finite support we can offer to people who are most vulnerable, with the plight I mentioned earlier of lone or disabled children in Syrian refugee camps being a prime example. If we have finite resource—I understand that the concept of finite resource to the Labour party is a difficult one to manage—we want to direct that to the very people the hon. Gentleman is talking about. This system is overwhelmed by people who do not have a just claim to seek asylum—

[Kevin Brennan]

Her husband was executed. Show some humanity.

[Penny Mordaunt]

I am showing her humanity, because I am going to support measures that will enable us to get these systems under control. I say to the hon. Gentleman that I fully understand why he asks this question—

[Kevin Brennan]

I am angry about the answer—

[Penny Mordaunt]

The hon. Gentleman is perfectly entitled to be angry at my answer. I am angry at the situation where we have finite resource that cannot help these people who need assistance. We need to direct that to people whom the system—an asylum system—was set up to protect. That has always been our judgment as a Government. It has always been our action as a Government. If he is serious about helping this situation, he will look at this legislation seriously and actually help us stop the system being overwhelmed, so that we can direct this support to the people who need it most.

Business of the House

Kevin Brennan Excerpts

Thursday 9th February 2023 Commons Chamber

[Penny Mordaunt]

I thank my hon. Friend for getting his concerns on the record. He is absolutely right that many people, especially the most vulnerable in our society, will be dependent on those services. I will make sure that the relevant Department has heard his concerns. Royal Mail often writes to Members when such concerns are expressed. I hope it will be in touch with my hon. Friend later today.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

You will remember, Madam Deputy Speaker, that for many years I had the great pleasure of sitting next to Ann Clwyd, our former colleague in this House, who is now my constituent. She has written to me once again, you will not be surprised to know. Due to a difficulty with her leg, she recently had to purchase an electric bed in order to elevate it. Subsequently, she found out that it could have been be subject to a VAT exemption. However, the shop that she purchased it from, Dreams, does not grant that VAT exemption on its beds, classifying them as entertainment rather than medical devices. She went on to survey all the shops in Cardiff and found that half of them offer VAT exemptions and half do not. May we have a statement from the Treasury on how people in that position can take advantage of the VAT exemption when they have medical needs, so that they can rest easy in their beds?

[Penny Mordaunt]

I am glad that our much-loved former Member is still using her formidable campaigning skills and has not retired them. Ann and the hon. Gentleman have raised an interesting point, and I will make sure that the Department knows about it.

Business of the House

Kevin Brennan Excerpts

Thursday 26th January 2023 Commons Chamber

[Penny Mordaunt]

I am happy to echo my hon. Friend’s praise for the Minister and all the work done to bring this scheme forward. It is another example from a raft of schemes the Government have brought in over many years to support and help coastal communities. We introduced that focus, and I know that the south-west in particular has benefited from many such schemes looking at the opportunities for recreational fishing and the hospitality sector. If we were not excited enough about that already, we are even more excited after my hon. Friend’s question.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

Can we have a debate about the importance of our recording studios to our creative industries? If we do, there are two things in particular that we can discuss. The first is the BBC’s selling off Maida Vale, which could still be run as a going concern; there are offers on the table and it ought to be kept as part of our musical heritage. The second is the fact that our recording studios, so important to our film, television and video games industries, are not eligible for the energy bills discount scheme, despite institutions such as libraries, museums and even zoos being eligible. If penguins in zoos are eligible for the discount scheme, should not Arctic Monkeys be too?

[Penny Mordaunt]

Very good. The hon. Gentleman raises an important point. I will speak to the Secretary of State at DCMS about the theme that is emerging from the question session today. I also thank the hon. Gentleman for putting on record the opportunity with that particular studio; there are many organisations that would be very interested, but unless they know about the opportunity they cannot start to be creative about how they might be the answer he is seeking.

Business of the House

Kevin Brennan Excerpts

Thursday 12th January 2023 Commons Chamber

[Penny Mordaunt]

I thank my hon. Friend for raising this important matter. I extend my sympathies, and I am sure the whole House would wish to as well, to Julie, Graham and all those affected by that tragic loss. It would be a very good topic for a debate. It is shocking that suicide is the largest killer of young men in this country. He may also wish to raise this issue at equalities questions on 25 January, because we do not tend to focus on matters that affect men.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

As a beneficiary of early diagnosis of prostate cancer, it is pretty shocking to see today’s Prostate Cancer UK report showing the differences in when men get diagnosed with this disease in the UK: a third in Scotland are diagnosed too late for effective cure and a fifth in parts of England, but only one in eight in London. Can we have a statement from the Government on what they will do to tackle this postcode lottery, not least to give much clearer messages to men about the need to get themselves tested in an area in which contradictory signals are sometimes given about what is the right thing to do? That should be done in conjunction with the devolved Administrations, because this disease affects people right across the UK.

[Penny Mordaunt]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for helping to raise awareness of this matter. I also thank the BBC for the good work that it has been doing to raise awareness that people may experience no symptoms at all, so it is important that they go for regular screening. I was very shocked by the disparity, and particularly the figures in Scotland, as the hon. Gentleman said. One in three are diagnosed too late and the cancer has spread. We need to address that. I will write to the relevant Department to ensure that it has heard the House’s concerns.

Christmas Adjournment

Kevin Brennan Excerpts

Tuesday 20th December 2022 Commons Chamber

[Dr Luke Evans (Bosworth) (Con)]

I think this may be a first. If the House will allow me, I am going to quote:

“Ladies and gentlemen,

Over the past 12 months, the United Kingdom has faced many challenges and has made many important decisions. In the face of these challenges, the country has remained steadfast in its commitment to its values and principles. One of the key achievements of the UK over the past year has been its success in managing the economy. Despite the ongoing challenges posed by the COVID-19 pandemic, the government has worked tirelessly to support businesses and protect jobs. This has included implementing a range of measures such as the furlough scheme, which has helped to keep millions of people in work.

The UK has also been successful in implementing its ambitious plan for Brexit. After years of negotiations, the country has finally left the European Union and has begun to forge a new path as an independent, global trading nation. This has not been without its challenges, but the UK has shown determination and resolve in securing a good deal for the country. In addition to these economic achievements, the UK has also made significant progress on a range of other issues. For example, the government has continued to invest in the NHS, providing it with the resources it needs to deliver high-quality care to patients. The country has also been committed to law and order, with a focus on ensuring that the justice system is fair and effective.

Of course, no country is perfect and there are always areas where improvements can be made. However, I believe that the UK has shown itself to be capable and resilient, and has demonstrated its commitment to its values and principles. As Winston Churchill once said, ‘Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.’ I believe that the UK has shown that courage over the past 12 months, and I have every confidence that it will continue to do so in the months and years ahead.”

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

Did the hon. Gentleman write that himself, or was it written by artificial intelligence?

[Dr Evans]

The hon. Gentleman points out exactly the thing I have alluded to. That speech may have been one that Members would have heard in the House, but it was put together by ChatGPT, an artificial intelligence run by OpenAI. My command to it was simple: write a Churchillian speech on the state of the United Kingdom over the past 12 months. When we step into the House there are principles that we abide by. We learn from the past, we do not dwell on it; we live in the moment, but we do not get lost in it; we plan for the future, but we do not rely on it. This speech is all about the future.

This year there has been a seismic change in the way that artificial intelligence can be used. Gone are the days when generational knowledge was passed on from person to person. We had books and developed reading, and we then had the ability to put that on to computers. Further still, with the advent of the internet we suddenly did not need to know and retain knowledge; we needed only to find out where to go to get it. Now, with the AI in algorithms we can ask the computer how to use that information.

Let me give some examples. Other than writing political speeches, the AI can write copy for adverts or put together a running programme for someone who wants to train for a marathon. It can diarise someone’s potential work commitments, or put together recipes when they are not sure what is in the fridge. It can write apps when someone asks what kind of coding it would like. This is an incredible step forward, but with that come huge issues about autonomy, liability, fairness, safety, morality, and even ownership of creativity. We in this House must ask ourselves how we govern this, because so much comes down to algorithms.

Algorithms are there to support, drive and work as a tool, but the problem with such intelligence is that we risk creating an echo chamber. Now when a sixteen-year-old writes a school essay on what happened with Brexit, the algorithm will drive an answer, which will be read and put into a marking algorithm, and there is the problem—cycles of algorithms going round. Further still, let us extrapolate it out to autonomous cars. We will get in the position where we know who is in the car, when there will be an accident, and their percentage chance of survival. How will we pit a pensioner in a single car versus a bus carrying 30 schoolchildren? That is some of the stuff that we in the House will deal with over the next 10, 20 or 30 years.

The Government have gone some way to dealing with this. The AI Council was formed in 2019, and the National AI Strategy is run by the Office for Artificial Intelligence. I think, however, that we are missing a trick, and that there should be a regulator for algorithms and artificial intelligence, to run concurrently and in synergy with the technology we are developing. If we take a leaf out of the vaccine book, that is exactly what the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency did. We can risk and mitigate the problems that the Online Safety Bill has had to deal with 20 or 30 years down the line. AI and algorithms will have a huge impact on the labour market, diagnosis, tools, education, and society, and that needs a far wider debate, but I wanted to put the issue on the record because such a debate will happen, and we as politicians need to be at the front of it.

This is a Christmas speech, so to demonstrate AI yet again, I thought I would ask ChatGPT to write a rhyming poem about the Houses of Parliament at Christmas, including talking about the Speaker:

“As Christmas approaches and the air grows cold,

The Houses of Parliament stand grand and bold.

The Speaker presides, with wisdom and grace

Over the debates, in this special place.

The halls are decked with holly and cheer,

As politicians gather, year after year,

To discuss the issues, that matter most

And find solutions, to the problems they host.

But on this festive night, as the fire burns bright

They pause for a moment, to appreciate the sight

Of the snow-covered streets, and the city aglow

And the warmth of the season, that we all know.

So on this Christmas Eve, as the clock ticks by,

We give thanks for all, both low and high,

For the Houses of Parliament, and all they do

Merry Christmas to all, from me and you.”

--- Later in debate ---

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Bosworth (Dr Evans) on his speech. My intervention on him was generated by KI, or Kevin intelligence, rather than AI. I had hoped to speak earlier in the debate, but despite my having been in the House for 21 years, I think my name got lost in the ether somewhere. I congratulate him on introducing the subject of artificial intelligence and its capability; he is absolutely right. Let me give the House a further example:

“As we all know, artificial intelligence is rapidly advancing and finding its way into all sorts of industries and sectors. The creative industries are no exception, and the music industry in particular is already starting to feel the impact of AI. But what does that mean for us as music lovers?

On the positive side, AI has the potential to help artists and musicians create new compositions more efficiently and quickly. It’s like having a trusty sidekick who can handle all the tedious tasks while you focus on the creative work. And with AI’s ability to analyze data about music trends and consumer preferences, it could also help artists and music labels create music that is more likely to be successful. It’s like having a crystal ball that can predict which songs are going to be hits and which ones will be misses.

But on the negative side, there’s the potential for AI to replace human musicians and composers. While AI-generated music can be impressive, it’s also important to remember that it lacks the creativity and originality that comes from a human artist. It’s like trying to compare a machine-made painting to a masterpiece by Vincent van Gogh. Sure, they both might be visually appealing, but one has a level of depth and soul that the other just can’t match.

There’s also the potential for AI to be used to create counterfeit or pirated music. With AI, it’s possible to create songs that are very similar to existing ones, which could lead to the creation of fake or unauthorized copies of popular songs. It’s like trying to pass off a knockoff designer bag as the real deal. Sure, it might look the same on the outside, but it lacks the quality and craftsmanship of the original.

Despite these potential negative implications, it’s important to remember that AI has the potential to bring many benefits to the music industry as well. And as with any new technology, it’s up to us as a society to find a balance and figure out how to use it in a responsible and ethical way. It’s like finding the sweet spot on a see-saw. We don’t want to lean too far in either direction, but rather find a comfortable and sustainable middle ground.

In conclusion, the impact of AI on the music industry is a complex and multifaceted issue. While it has the potential to bring many benefits, it also carries with it a number of potential risks and challenges. But with a little bit of thought and consideration, we can navigate these challenges and find a way to use AI in a way that benefits everyone.”

As I suspect hon. Members may have spotted, that speech was not written by me. Nor was it written by my brilliant, trusty parliamentary assistant, George Leach-Hutchings, or by my very clever niece, who played around with the technology with us this morning. It was written by an artificial intelligence programme—the same one that the hon. Member for Bosworth highlighted earlier.

I know that all this is giving trouble to the Clerks, who are thinking, “Is this a lengthy quotation? It shouldn’t be allowed,” and so on, but in this instance I think we have to face up to the fact that the hon. Gentleman and I may not be the first Members who have used AI to deliver speeches. Someone might have done it already and not fessed up to the House—you might like to bear that in mind, Mr Deputy Speaker, before the Clerks turn to you and say that my speech is out of order.

This technology is with us now, and it is very, very real. It has very many positive potential implications. If you ask it what it is, it will tell you that it is basically

“a large artificial intelligence language model trained by OpenAI. It exists purely as a collection of algorithms and data and”

—listen to this bit—

“does not have a physical body. Its primary function is to generate human-like text in response to prompts given to it by users. It was trained on a large dataset of texts and can generate responses on a wide variety of topics”,

as we have shown this afternoon.

“Since it does not have the ability to browse the internet or access new information, its knowledge is limited to what was available to it at the time of its training. It is not a real person and does not have personal experiences or feelings. Its responses are generated solely based on the data and algorithms that make up its programming.”

I think it important for us to discuss this subject, not least because our parliamentary assistants will be very nervous about the potential of the programme to write speeches for us all; but there are a number of others in society who, as well as understanding the benefits of this technology, also understand that we, as parliamentarians, need to understand its policy implications for many different aspects of our economy. As many Members know, I take a strong interest in the creative industries, and the music industry in particular. We in the UK do not currently have any regulations that cover this adequately, and nor does the EU, which is also considering the matter.

The Government held a consultation last year on the implications for music, and reached a conclusion that caused a great deal of consternation in the music industry. Thankfully they are now thinking again, but had that conclusion been implemented, it would have allowed any tech company to “scrape” the creative output of our great songwriters and composers and then use this technology to create facsimiles, or similar types of music, based on the data—after all, all information is essentially data—contained in those creative works without the creators themselves, the songwriters, composers and rights holders, having to give permission, and without the activity having to be licensed in any way. As Members will imagine, that caused considerable concern in our brilliant and world-leading creative industries, and not just in the music industry. This issue affects many other industries, including the film industry. It affects actors, and, dare I say it, politicians, because it can recreate their voices, their mannerisms and so on.

I think that all of us, as parliamentarians and policymakers, need to engage more readily and in more depth with the implications of this technology. It is a delicate balance, but a key one. I think it imperative that we defend our copyright institutions and allow rights holders to license the use of their creative output, including music, by AI to ensure that songwriters and composers can continue to receive remuneration when their works are used, especially for commercial AI purposes. I hope that the UK Government will think about that in reconsidering their decision to allow third parties to use not just music but artistic works in general for data mining purposes without authorisation from creators and other rights holders.

The one small relief that I gained from the speech of the hon. Member for Bosworth was the fact that the poem with which he ended it was not exactly William Wordsworth. However, this technology will clearly improve as it develops, and it is developing very rapidly. Let us make sure that we do not allow ourselves to become slaves to the algorithm.

Business of the House

Kevin Brennan Excerpts

Thursday 15th December 2022 Commons Chamber

[Penny Mordaunt]

I thank my hon. Friend for raising the matter and for getting those brave individuals’ names into today’s Hansard. I will certainly ensure that the matter is raised with the Home Office and that we consider how we can further mark their incredible service and sacrifice. This is a week in which we have all been very aware of the tragedy of people drowning in cold water.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

Perhaps we could have a debate on the accurate use of Charles Dickens as a political metaphor. Much as I hate to contradict my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol West (Thangam Debbonaire) and the Leader of the House, Ebenezer Scrooge was visited by four ghosts. The first was the ghost of Jacob Marley, who was condemned to roam the earth, dragging chains behind him as a penance for his meanness during life. After the Government’s miserliness in refusing even to meet nurses to discuss a pay increase, may I remind the Leader of the House of the message of Jacob Marley, namely that redemption is available? Does she agree that the Government ought to meet the nurses to discuss a decent pay rise before Christmas?

Merry Christmas, Mr Speaker—and, as Tiny Tim said,

“God bless Us, Every One!”

[Penny Mordaunt]

As a Portsmouth MP, I am delighted that Charles Dickens is featuring so heavily in this business question, but I repeat the answer that I gave earlier. We value our NHS staff tremendously. The Minister who has been primarily concerned with the matter—the Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, my hon. Friend the Member for Lewes (Maria Caulfield)—is a nurse. We understand the incredible job that nurses do very well, but we also have to ensure that we are able to control inflation and that pay rises in the public sector are affordable.

Business of the House

Kevin Brennan Excerpts

Thursday 8th December 2022 Commons Chamber

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

I went along yesterday to Guide Dogs Open Doors event in this House, where I was quite shocked to find out that 73% of guide dog users have experienced an access refusal in the past 12 months. They told me that using guide dogs in taxis has been less of a problem since it was brought under the criminal law, but there is still a great problem with other businesses, including in retail. Could we have a debate about making access refusals to people with guide dogs subject to the criminal law for all businesses as it is for taxis?

[Penny Mordaunt]

I am sure that it was an excellent event. I was slightly nervous when I saw in the schedule that it was next door to a Cats Protection event—I thought that it could go terribly wrong very quickly. I will certainly raise the matter with the relevant Department. From transport to restaurants and other businesses or places of work, it is vital that everyone has access, including people with support animals.