Consumer Rights Bill (Carry-Over Extension)

Debate between Lord Beamish and Baroness Primarolo

Monday 12th January 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Jones]

That does not surprise me, given the hon. Gentleman’s record. I should not have thought that he was one of those whom the Chief Whip would hold close to his bosom in terms of communication. I imagine that if there was room for only one more person in a lifeboat, the Chief Whip would not get into it if the hon. Gentleman was there.

The point is that we have ended up with a slack programme, and the progress of Bills, including this Bill, depends on how sedately or otherwise the other place deals with them. Certain important Bills, such as this and the Armed Forces (Service Complaints and Financial Assistance) Bill, could be delayed until the wash-up, and could then fall. As was pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow, provisions in this Bill that are actually welcome could end up being dealt with in the usual meat-grinder sessions at the end when it is decided what can and cannot be agreed. I do not think that that would be satisfactory from the point of view of those who have worked hard to ensure that the Bill is passed, or when it comes to ensuring that it is scrutinised in a proper and just fashion. I note that there are other carry-over motions on the Order Paper, and I suspect there will be others, because it is within the Government’s remit to introduce them. As I said, under paragraph (13) of the Standing Order that has been invoked, paragraph (14) comes into effect, which states:

“A motion may be made by a Minister of the Crown to extend for a specified period proceedings on a Bill which would otherwise lapse under paragraph (13), and any such motion

(a) may contain provisions amending or supplementing a programme order in respect of the Bill;

(b) may be proceeded with, though opposed, after the moment of interruption”.

I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Warley (Mr Spellar) that this is not about the Government having a procedural or a timetabling Committee of the House for Bills. A competent Government should be able to put forward a legislative programme for a Session that ensures not only that they get their Bills through, but that it is done in a timely fashion and the Bills get proper scrutiny in this place. Clearly, now that they have discovered paragraph (13), it is going to be used far more to extend consideration of Bills.

The time period goes up to 30 March and it will be interesting to see what timetable there will be and whether or not, and when, we will get this Bill back from the other place. On the transparency issue around ticket touting, for example, Lord Moynihan was clear on the radio this morning that he would listen to what this House said, but there is a good chance that the Bill will be voted on again in the other place and come back to us.

The issue is whether the Conservative Whips Office in the House of Lords can get all these new peers whom the Prime Minister has added out of their sleepy slumber and ensure that they attend and vote in support of the Government. Their record so far is not very good. There is even a question as to whether they can be relied on to vote the right way, because there are Cross Benchers and Conservative peers who support the cause of greater transparency for the consumer which my hon. Friend the Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson) has championed for many years. If the Bill comes back, we will get into a ping-pong session, and given that we are now getting a logjam of Bills, what real in-depth discussion will we have of any amendments that are brought back?

That brings us back to my central point about the role of this House as opposed to that of the other place. I could be unfair on the Government and think that all along, with the coalition in place, their plan and the Prime Minister’s plan was to rush everything through this House as quickly as possible, so that it gets to the other place where, because he has appointed so many new Conservative peers, he now has an in-built majority to steamroller through whatever he wants.

We have seen some examples of that. The coalition love-days of the rose garden at No. 10 in 2010 have now clearly gone sour. The coalition was described then as a shotgun marriage, and it has clearly not lasted the course. I know of occasions when internal tensions in the coalition have led to legislation being dropped—the latest example being the issues around surveillance on the internet, where there appears to be a clear divide between the position of the Liberal Democrats and that of the Conservative part of the coalition. It is important that we get legislation through in time, and we cannot second-guess the internal politics of the coalition. Let us remember the rights of this House. There has been a lot of talk about broken politics, and the—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. The hon. Gentleman is now drifting a long way from the subject before us. We are not discussing the internal politics of the coalition; we are concentrating on the proposal for the carry-over extension of the Bill, and the hon. Gentleman needs to return to that.

[Mr Jones]

As always, Madam Deputy Speaker, I shall heed your advice. The important point, however, is that a very strange dynamic has been created during this Parliament. Bills have been announced and put forward, and the first was the Bill relating to the Boundary Commission, which subsequently fell apart. That also happened to a House of Lords Bill. I use those as an example—

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. Mr Jones, it is fascinating to hear your explanation of why you should continue to make the points that I have asked you not to make, but I am now directing you to return to the subject before us. Members might be entertained by your contribution, but it is my job to keep you in order. You are currently out of order, so please return to the subject.

[Mr Jones]

I am quite aware of that, and I apologise for digressing into areas that are beyond the scope of the Bill.

The central point is that this Government have not been able to programme their Bills properly during this Parliament. Depending on where this Bill gets to in the stack of Bills in the other place, it could end up in the wash-up. If Lord Moynihan presses these matters to a vote again, as he said on the radio this morning that he would, we shall have ping-pong and this Bill and others could end up either being filleted or in a ping-pong session. That could result in important legislation not being put forward. The use of this Standing Order shows that the Government have failed in one of their basic tasks—that of timetabling their legislation in this House. It is an indictment of the incompetent and arrogant way in which they have acted.

Defence Spending

Debate between Lord Beamish and Baroness Primarolo

Thursday 19th June 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Brazier]

I have written a reply to that report because I do not agree with it, but all the report says is that there are extra costs associated with recruiting for the next year and a half until the new system is in place, and it also queries some of the figures the MOD has put forward, but it nowhere actually suggests that a man or woman who is employed only for 40 days a year could cost more than a regular soldier. It—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. This debate finishes at 5 o’clock on the dot, and we have not yet heard from the Minister.

[Mr Jones]

The hon. Gentleman should read chapter 11, on page 8 of the report.

We believe the approach adopted is damagingly short-sighted and plays fast and loose with our nation’s security.

European Union (Referendum) Bill

Debate between Lord Beamish and Baroness Primarolo

Friday 8th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Kevan Jones]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I know that we are considering a private Member’s Bill, but is it in order for its promoter, the hon. Member for Stockton South (James Wharton), to be taking advice from Foreign Office civil servants in the Box?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

I say to the hon. Gentleman that it is normal for Ministers to approach the Box, and only Ministers. I did not see anyone approach the Box.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. I know where the hon. Gentleman is now thank you, Ms McCarthy, but I am saying that I did not see him approach the Box and I am sure he will not do that. It is supposed to be for Ministers. Having eyes in the back of my head is not a skill I have yet developed, but I am sure the protocol will be observed.

[Mr Jones]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Jones]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

It had better be a point of order, Mr Jones.

[Mr Jones]

The convention in the House is that if Members seek to intervene, the speaker usually acknowledges them and either says no or yes. I would like some guidance, because the Minister has been completely ignoring those trying to get in.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Mr Jones, you know full well that that is not a point of order. It is entirely up to the Minister or the Member who has the Floor to decide to whom they give way, but perhaps the Minister could indicate to the House whether he wishes to make some progress.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Kevan Jones]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I know that you follow the rules of the House closely, and clearly the rules on photography in the Chamber are very strict. As you know, this morning I have been keeping a close eye on the Box, and I was aware that a minute ago one of its occupants was holding up his mobile phone. I do not know whether he inadvertently did not know the rules on filming proceedings, and I ask for your guidance on that, Madam Deputy Speaker.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

It is quite simple: photography in the Chamber is not allowed by anybody. I am sure that those on the Treasury Benches are capable of ensuring that that includes civil servants in the Box.

[Mr Jones]

Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I accept that point, but would it be in order for Mr Speaker, or someone else, to check that the individual was not filming in the Chamber?

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I am advised that we can ask a Doorkeeper to undertake that should it be necessary.

Trident Alternatives Review

Debate between Lord Beamish and Baroness Primarolo

Wednesday 17th July 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Jones]

It is a serious subject. I just wish that Liberal Democrats would treat it seriously, rather than coming up with the nonsense that they keep peddling.

The alternatives review reinforces my point. On page 5, it states:

“The highest level of assurance the UK can attain with a single deterrent system is provided by SSBN submarines operating a continuous at sea deterrence posture.”

On page 10, it states:

“None of these alternative systems and postures offers the same degree of resilience as the current posture of Continuous at Sea Deterrence, nor could they guarantee a prompt response in all circumstances.”

I could not put it better myself. Breaking CASD would involve an unacceptable downgrading of our capabilities.

To return to the issue of cost, we have been told by the Liberal Democrats that the alternatives to Trident would be cheaper, but their review shows that to be complete nonsense. We were told by the Chief Secretary yesterday that the review was not about savings, but about the nuclear deterrent.

In conclusion, the Liberal Democrats’ review has not only unmasked their political posturing, but reinforced the case for the policy voted for by this House in 2006. [Interruption.] I am sorry that the right hon. and learned Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell) is muttering. When he is put under detailed examination, he will have to explain the nonsense that he peddled in the run-up to the last general election, which his party’s review has completely discredited. Perhaps he has not read the report. The Liberal Democrats must want to have some credibility. I know that it is not unusual for them to look both ways and ignore the truth, but the report clearly discredits most of the things that he has said over the past few years.

The alternatives review has looked at the alternatives and come forward with the conclusion that we all thought it would reach: the minimum credible nuclear deterrent for the UK is submarine-based continuous-at-sea deterrent. [Interruption.] Well, that is what it is saying—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. That really is enough. It is impossible for Hansard to keep a proper record of this debate when senior Members keep shouting across the Chamber and the Member on their feet then replies. Either we have interventions or we do not. We are up against the clock and I would appreciate it if we could get on to the Back-Bench speeches.

[Mr Jones]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I await the examination of the report by the right hon. and learned Member for North East Fife and his justification of his comments over the past few years on this subject.

The standards that we set in this area are important not just in terms of cost. I know that the Opposition and the Government are conscious of the need to ensure that we not only get value for money, but we have a—

Mental Health

Debate between Lord Beamish and Baroness Primarolo

Thursday 16th May 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Moon]

There is an issue with the interaction of mental health and alcohol. I repeatedly had texts from a dear friend of mine who is a minister in the Church. He had severe depression and was self-medicating with alcohol. His family and the police would repeatedly take him to mental health services, which would turn him away, because they said he had been drinking. He was drinking because he needed their services and could not access them. We have to ensure that mental health services cannot turn away people who have been drinking, but hold them until they are no longer under the influence of alcohol and then ensure that they access the services they need. The link between alcohol and mental health has to be explored and tackled.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Before the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) continues, let me say that interventions are becoming speeches in their own right, when they are supposed to be brief and pertinent to the point that has just been made. If we could return to that, perhaps it would help the flow of the debate.

[Mr Jones]

It is a statement of fact that people with mental illness will self-medicate, and alcohol is the most easily available drug. I am surprised by what my hon. Friend describes. If services are taking that approach to people, that is wrong. Her point is also linked to the bigger debate about access to alcohol.

Let me return to the issue of stigma, which my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley North (Ian Austin) raised. He quite rightly said that we do not talk about it, but we are making some progress. I thank Mind, Time to Change, Rethink and the Royal College of Psychiatrists for doing a great job of raising the issue and tackling the stigma. We should remember that it is not just the individuals with mental illness who suffer, but family members too. Earlier my hon. Friend the Member for Ashfield (Gloria De Piero) mentioned her own family. A lot of families suffer in silence because they think there is no one to turn to. In many cases, they think they have failed in some way or wonder where they can get help. It is not uncommon—I have come across a lot of these cases—for carers to end up suffering from mental illness themselves because of the daily pressures on them.

The hon. Member for Broxbourne raised the issue of schizophrenia. I pay tribute to the Schizophrenia Commission, which reported towards the end of last year. It looked not only at services for schizophrenia, but at the stigma attached to. Again, the popular image in the media is that someone suffering from schizophrenia is potentially the mad axeman or woman next door who will come and kick the door in, when nothing could be further from the truth. When we describe people’s conditions, there is an onus on us all to describe them properly, because there are people suffering from schizophrenia who, with proper treatment and support, can function quite normally.

I also pay tribute to the hon. Member for Croydon Central (Gavin Barwell), who introduced the Mental Health (Discrimination) (No. 2) Act 2013—a good use of a private Member’s Bill. Like my friend the hon. Member for Broxbourne, I also pay tribute to Lord Stevenson, not only for championing the Bill through the other place, but for the work he does with his new charity. Did that legislation help in itself? Yes, it did, because it sent a clear signal that we were starting to take discrimination more seriously. Will it change things overnight? No, I do not think it will, but the more we talk about the stigma, the better people can address it.

I have been criticised—we see this occasionally in some newspapers—by people who say, “Well, it’s okay for famous film stars or even MPs to say they’ve suffered from mental illness,” as though it is somehow an easy thing to do, but I can tell Members now that it is not. I would like us to reach a position where people generally are talking about mental illness, so that if people are suffering in a workplace, they can open up to their colleagues. I should point out—not just to people in this Chamber, but to those in the wider audience—that most people who are suffering from a mental illness would be very surprised by the reaction if they told people. However, it is a big step, and I know personally that it is a very difficult one to take.

One of the best examples of that was from a Channel 4 programme that I appeared on after I spoke last year—I pay tribute to Channel 4 for its work to raise awareness of the stigma around mental illness. The programme had the great title of “Mad Confessions” and was presented by a very mad individual called Ruby Wax. By chance, it happened to include one of my constituents, Derek Muir, who suffered from depression. The programme started with him talking about his depression—he had been off work for a number of months and lives in Edmondsley in my constituency. At the end of the programme they got all his colleagues together in a room and he told them. It was the first they had known about it, but the reaction was very positive and supportive. That is the point we need to get to. Sometimes it is a big step for people suffering from mental illness or depression to admit what is seen as a frailty—although it is not. The strength is in opening up and asking for help.

One area that we need to do more work in is getting mental health policies in the workplace right. I pay tribute to BT and Dr Paul Litchfield for their policies, which have buy-in not just at the level of personnel managers, but from the board downwards. They are not only talking about getting people to talk to one another and open up about mental illness, but trying to be supportive of people with mental illness. When I was at a seminar with Paul last year, somebody asked him, “Why has BT done this? Is it just to tick the social responsibility box?” He said no. Indeed, the board was quite clear: the policy makes economic sense for BT. The message we need to get across to more and more employers is: “Why write off people who are valuable to your business, just because they happen to suffer from a mental illness?” BT is to be congratulated, and I certainly congratulate the board and Paul on their work in this area.

Local Government Finance Bill

Debate between Lord Beamish and Baroness Primarolo

Wednesday 18th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. Mr Jones, please stop shouting across the Chamber. Either try and intervene or please be quiet.

[Mr Kevan Jones]

rose—

Armed Forces Personnel

Debate between Lord Beamish and Baroness Primarolo

Thursday 10th November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I have been listening to the evidence given by James Murdoch to the Select Committee. He has admitted that members of the Committee were followed at the point when the Committee was undertaking an inquiry into the phone hacking activities of News International. This is obviously an extremely complex matter, but I wonder whether a breach of privilege might be involved.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Anything going on in respect of evidence given to a Select Committee is a matter for that Committee to deal with. If the hon. Lady believes that a breach of privilege has been committed in any way, as an individual Member of this House she should write to Mr Speaker about it. It is not a matter that would be dealt with on the Floor of the House.

[Mr Jones]

I know that the consultants brought in by the MOD estimate that the figure would be more than £3 billion. I do not know whether pennies have suddenly dropped from heaven for this investment or whether since the departure of the former Secretary of State the Treasury has given the MOD an early Christmas present. It will be interesting to find out where this extra investment is coming from. We need a clear statement on that, particularly in respect of the converting of Cottesmore and Kinloss from RAF bases into Army bases.

In addition, the total footprint in Germany is 47,000 individuals if civil servants and dependants are included. What will be the cost on other Government Departments and local authorities of relocating these individuals to their new local communities? For the Minister and the MOD to have any credibility about these plans, we need the answers published and we need a detailed time scale for when people will return from Germany and how the moves will be funded. We need to know how the money will be spent and where exactly it is coming from. If we do not have that, there will be some incredulity about how the plans will be affordable and how they will affect the lives of many thousands of armed service personnel.

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[Mr Jones]

No, actually, it is not. In July 2009, I produced a Green Paper on the covenant. I do not think the hon. Gentleman read it and I do not think many of the new Ministers did either, because they clearly fell for the civil service tricks that were tried on me. They were obviously told how hard it would be to implement such a measure, although they finally realised that it could be implemented.

Although not widely read in the House, my Green Paper was widely welcomed by the services community. It received a good deal of coverage and would have formed part of our programme had we been re-elected. It is not true that it was not on anyone’s radar screen when we were in government. I suggest that everyone should read the very well thought out Green Paper that I produced. Even the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, the right hon. Member for South Leicestershire (Mr Robathan), the current veterans Minister, has admitted that it covered the main points.

One of the Government’s policies we are concerned about relates to armed forces and war widows’ pensions. The year-on-year change to uprate pensions using the consumer prices index rather than the retail prices index will disproportionately affect members of the armed forces community, who rely on their pensions at a younger age than almost anyone else. The impact will be felt not just by the present generation, including those who are fighting today in Afghanistan, but by those who landed on the beaches of Normandy.

The Forces Pension Society estimates that, as a result of the Government’s changes, a disabled double amputee of corporal rank aged 28 will lose some £587,000 by the age of 70, and that a war widow with children will receive a basic per annum pension that will be £94 less next year. The society has said:

“The extent of devaluation of Armed Forces pensions has become a matter of deep concern to Service people, past and present.”

The society’s chairman, Vice-Admiral Sir Michael Moore, has said:

“I have never seen a Government erode the morale of the Armed Forces so quickly'”.

Julie McCarthy of the Army Families Federation—I had the privilege of working closely with her when I was a Minister, and I pay tribute to her and to the representatives of the RAF and Naval Families Federations—has said:

“The demands of the service have not gone down... but”

personnel

“are seeing their pay frozen, the threat of redundancy and now allowance cuts.”

[Interruption.] In the light of that, I wonder whether the Minister will tell us why—[Interruption.]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. We really do not need a continuous commentary from Members who do not wish to intervene. A Member who wishes to intervene must stand up and make his or her point if the Member who has the Floor gives way. Otherwise, Members must not shout across the Chamber.

[Mr Jones]

As I was saying, I wonder whether the Minister will tell us why that change has been made permanent. It will extend even beyond the target date for the end of the deficit reduction period.

Another matter of concern to many Members involves the office of the chief coroner. As the military covenant states, no member of the service community, including dependants, should suffer disadvantage arising from service, and special provision should at times be made to reflect their sacrifices. That is why the post of chief coroner is so important. It can provide an independent, expert service for bereaved families, and scrapping it undermines the Government’s commitment to the covenant.