Oral Answers to Questions
Debate between Hilary Benn and John Bercow(10 years, 3 months ago)
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Mr Pickles
The right hon. Gentleman will readily understand that when we came to office, the Prevent strategy was moved to the Home Office. We have concentrated on the matters that bring people together and encourage communities not to be isolated. We have spent the best part of £45 million on that endeavour, on things ranging from “English First”, which ensures English is taught in perhaps unusual places—trying to target young mothers, for example—to putting a lot of money, about £10 million, into the recruitment of detached youth workers to appropriate organisations. We have also funded groups that work together, whether it be in mosques, churches or synagogues. The right hon. Gentleman is quite right to say that we all have an obligation in this regard. Speaking as someone brought up in a multicultural city, I think this issue goes far deeper than funding streams. It is an extraordinary sight to see someone born and brought up in this country participating in atrocities in the middle east. I pledge the Government, along with the Opposition, to work hard on this—
Mr Speaker
Order. I am grateful to the Secretary of State, but we have many questions to get through.
Hilary Benn
I am grateful to the Secretary of State for his reply. Given what he said, however, why does he think that last month the widely respected counter-extremism think-tank Quilliam criticised his Department’s failure to produce a proper strategy as “catastrophic”? Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that much more needs to be done across government and the country to protect our young people, including confronting head-on Islamic State’s repugnant ideology, its promoters and apologists here in the United Kingdom and its utter contempt for our democracy and way of life? As he does so, he will have the full support of the Opposition.
Core Cities
Debate between Hilary Benn and John BercowUrgent Questions are proposed each morning by backbench MPs, and up to two may be selected each day by the Speaker. Chosen Urgent Questions are announced 30 minutes before Parliament sits each day.
Each Urgent Question requires a Government Minister to give a response on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
The Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Greg Clark)
I am grateful for the opportunity to answer.
I have laid in the Library today a copy of a document that the Government are publishing entitled “Unlocking growth in cities”, and I have laid a written ministerial statement. The document outlines a new framework for the relationship between our larger cities and central Government.
England’s largest cities—many of the issues in question are devolved matters—are the economic powerhouses of our country. We are offering them a menu of new powers that we want to explore as part of a series of bespoke “city deals”. The ability to do that comes from an amendment that was introduced into the Localism Bill, which was promoted by the core cities group and attracted all-party support. It allowed powers to be devolved to cities in future, and I believe it is important to act on it.
Our cities have great potential to contribute more to growth, and to enable them to do that we want to free them from Whitehall control in a number of areas, with the aim of stimulating growth. The first wave of deals that we propose will be with the eight largest cities and their surrounding local enterprise partnerships. As with any deal, cities will have to offer something in return for their new powers and funding. They must guarantee that they can provide strong and accountable leadership, improve efficiency and outcomes, and be innovative in their approach.
The bespoke approach of recognising the differences between cities and allowing licensed exceptions is a new idea to put cities back in charge of their own economic destiny and enable them to seize the opportunities for growth. It represents a big shift in how Whitehall works, with the presumption being that powers should be handed down wherever cities make a convincing case.
It is important to say that today’s document sets out a series of indicative options for the transfers of control that could be considered as part of each deal-making process. The list is not intended to be a statement of policy or represent an automatic entitlement for cities. It is neither prescriptive nor exhaustive, but it might help the House if I give some examples of the content of the document.
We want to bring an end to the current system of requiring cities to bid to different Whitehall departments for different pots of cash, whether for roads or housing. Instead, we want to explore whether they can get one consolidated capital pot, to direct as they see fit. We want them to have the ability to set lower business rates for certain types of company. We already have very successful business improvement districts, and sometimes firms in a particular sector across a wider area may benefit from the same degree of flexibility.
There will be a £1 billion boost to the regional growth fund to create jobs, and we will encourage cities to bid for that money to help clusters of businesses in their area, so one bid could help several small companies. We know that many small businesses find the system of taking on apprentices daunting, so cities will be able to set up city apprenticeship hubs, which will help local employers and local people to make the most of the opportunities offered by apprenticeships.
We want to improve the way in which services work together in cities, to make it easier for people to get back into work instead of being passed from one service to another—from Jobcentre Plus to the town hall to a careers adviser. That can be done under one roof, and we want to make that possible. We also want to offer powers over infrastructure to unlock investments in improving transport, housing and broadband. Currently, transport projects can be delayed because cities have to go through the Whitehall machinery, but they may have the capacity to make some of the decisions themselves. Cities should also be able to have more of a say on their priorities for housing and regeneration, instead of having to go through the Homes and Communities Agency.
Cities will be able to bid for a share in a £100 million capital investment pot to spend on ambitious broadband infrastructure projects. We expect bids to include a range of projects, including superfast broadband for strategic business areas and city-wide high-speed mobile connectivity.
As I said, we want to start with the eight core cities that proposed the amendment to the Localism Bill, but I wish to be clear that our vision extends to the whole of urban Britain. I will be open to suggestions from other cities about how they can make use of the powers that the Bill, now the Localism Act 2011, gives them.
The powers that we are proposing will help to allow our cities to be the economic, social and cultural magnets that they have the potential to be, and places where people aspire to live. Our cities have too often been straining at Whitehall’s leash, and they now have an opportunity to seize the powers that are available to them. I hope that the conversation and negotiations that we will have in the months ahead will be fruitful, and I commend this statement to the House.
Mr Speaker
Yes, I notice that the Minister refers to his “statement” to the House, and his observations did somewhat exceed the time limit allocated to Ministers for dealing with urgent questions—so much so that one wonders whether he might have considered making an oral statement in the first instance.
Hilary Benn
I am grateful to the Minister for his reply, but it should not have taken an urgent question to bring him to the Dispatch Box this morning. Once again, a major policy announcement affecting local government, this time made in the Deputy Prime Minister’s speech in my constituency this morning, is all over the national and regional media, who were clearly pre-briefed yesterday, whereas the House should have been told first today.
The efforts of councils and communities up and down the country make the biggest contribution to our cities, and it is the Government’s job to help them do so. At least the Deputy Prime Minister acknowledged today that areas once synonymous with urban decay were “dramatically revived” thanks to Labour’s investment. However, when we examine the “unprecedented transfer of power” that he has talked of, in fact we find unprecedented cuts, as confirmed in this morning’s local government settlement, on top of the cuts already resulting from the scrapping of regional development agencies. Those cuts are substantial, front-loaded and unfair.
Will the Minister explain why the 10% most deprived local authorities, which include the core cities of Manchester and Liverpool, are facing reductions in their spending power nearly four times greater than the 10% least deprived authorities? There is only one way to describe that, and it is as balancing the books on the backs of the poor or, when it comes to job losses, on the backs of women, who have lost twice as many jobs in local government as men since the coalition was formed. How many more public sector jobs will be lost in the core cities in view of the revised Office for Budget Responsibility forecast published last week?
When does the Minister expect the new powers for the core cities to be confirmed? He has assured the House today that they will be available regardless of the outcome of the mayoral referendums, so when does he propose to extend them to other councils?
On the devolution of local funding, we developed single pot funding, a good idea that is now being taken forward. We welcome that, but will the Minister tell the House by how much the Government have slashed local capital spending in the core cities? Is that not why we now face an “infrastructure deficit”? Those are not my words but those of the Prime Minister.
How will reducing the affordable housing budget by nearly £4 billion unleash the power of local councils, including the core cities, when it means that they will find it much more difficult to provide the homes that their people need?
Councils will welcome a role on apprenticeships, although many already play a role, but why are local authorities, including the core cities, excluded from playing a part in the Work programme? Surely they should have a role in helping people to find jobs, which is an urgent task up and down the country.
On the changes to local government finance announced by the Deputy Prime Minister today, which will affect all councils, will the Minister give the House an assurance that no local authority will lose out financially? Will there be effective redistribution from the most well off to the least well off? How much of the increase in business rate revenue do the Government plan to keep for themselves? How exactly is that localisation?
On the business rate discounts, to which the Minister referred, who will decide where and to which industry they can be offered, and will he assure us that that will not just result in better-off areas being the ones that can attract new businesses?
The Opposition support strong and innovative local government, which should have the powers it needs to do that job, but no amount of warm words will hide two very uncomfortable facts: the Government are cutting unfairly and their failed economic policy is undermining the growth of our core cities and all local communities, when what they really need is a change of course.
Points of Order
Debate between Hilary Benn and John Bercow
Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. You have made it very clear on a number of occasions that Government announcements should be made first to this House. Over the weekend, there were a number of stories in the media, complete with quotes from the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, about the contents of today’s written statement about council tax on empty and second homes, which was made available only in the last hour and a half. This is the second time in a week that Communities and Local Government Ministers acting in this way has given rise to a point of order. Do you think such actions are acceptable and, if not, what can be done?
Mr Speaker
I would say two things to the right hon. Gentleman. First, I shall look into the specifics of this case, and in particular into what he has just said about attributed quotes. Secondly, let me reiterate a point that, as he rightly observes, I have made on innumerable occasions: it is a matter of straightforward courtesy and parliamentary propriety that statements of policy should first be made to this House, not elsewhere, and not by nods and winks or by leaks. I hope that is clear.
Point of Order
Debate between Hilary Benn and John Bercow
Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Thank you for taking this point of order, which, for reasons that will readily become apparent, is time critical. Last night, a Member on the Government Benches objected to my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) being put on to the Select Committee on Culture, Media and Sport. This was done in the knowledge that it would prevent her from being able to attend today’s very important Committee meeting, at which Rebekah Brooks, James Murdoch and Rupert Murdoch are giving evidence. There is, however, a motion on the Order Paper, tabled by the Committee of Selection, that will allow the House to vote to put this right, but it will not be debated until later. Is there anything you can do, Mr Speaker, to enable it to be taken now, or earlier, so that my hon. Friend can take her place alongside the other members of the Committee when they meet at 2.30 this afternoon?
Mr Speaker
As the right hon. Gentleman has acknowledged, this is an unconventional time for points of order, but as his inquiry is time critical I have exercised my discretion, as I did yesterday, to take the point of order. The answer is that, for the protection of all parts of the House, the Order Paper is settled at the end of the previous sitting. The Back-Bench business takes precedence, and the motion to which he refers is one that cannot be made without notice. I am sorry to disappoint the right hon. Gentleman.
Points of Order
Debate between Hilary Benn and John Bercow(13 years, 5 months ago)
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Mr Speaker
I am, and I will be. The Leader of the House has indicated that the public interest requires that the House should meet this Wednesday. It might be helpful to the House to say that, if I receive a formal request from the Government after the House adjourns tomorrow under Standing Order No. 13, I will appoint 11.30 on Wednesday as the time for the House to meet. The business to be taken at that sitting will be set down by the Government, and the Leader of the House has given a helpful indication of what that will be.
Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)
Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. First thing this morning, the Leader of the Opposition called for the House to meet on Wednesday, so I welcome the confirmation that we have just had from the Leader of the House that the Government will seek the recall of the House. However, given that events are indeed moving at a very fast pace, can we be clear on three matters? First, given the large and growing number of questions that now need to be answered by the Prime Minister concerning his judgment, it is essential that he lead the debate on Wednesday. Mr Speaker, have you been given any indication that he will do so, and of what form the debate will take?
Secondly, the Home Affairs Committee and the Culture, Media and Sport Committee will tomorrow take very important evidence from Sir Paul Stephenson, Rebekah Brooks, James Murdoch and Rupert Murdoch. If those Committees produce reports overnight, can you confirm that the House will have a full opportunity to debate those reports and any recommendations as part of Wednesday’s business?
Thirdly, as there may be issues of parliamentary privilege that arise from Lord Leveson’s inquiry—for example, whether Parliament was lied to, or about the disclosure of material—have you had any indication from the Government, Mr Speaker, as to how they propose to handle matters of privilege in the inquiry’s terms of reference?
Mr Speaker
I am grateful to the shadow Leader of the House for that point of order. First, as far as the Minister fielded by the Government is concerned, that is a matter for the Government. The Leader of the House will have heard what the right hon. Gentleman has said, and will be at liberty to respond, after I have finished saying what I am about to say, if he so wishes.
Secondly, so far as the content of the business is concerned, I wait for the Government to decide upon their motion. Once again, it is for the Leader of the House to indicate, as and when he is ready to do so, to the House the proposed terms of the debate. Thirdly, I would say to the right hon. Gentleman that I again await further and better particulars from the Leader of the House, but I should certainly have thought that the reports and the consideration preceding such reports to which the shadow Leader of the House has just referred would be obvious material for consideration in that debate. If the Leader of the House wishes to say anything further at this stage, he is free to do so, but he is not obliged to do so.
The House should also be aware that at any stage between now and Wednesday, further and better particulars could be provided, and there will be a statement on Wednesday—and statements can come at a variety of times. The House will want to be conscious of that and be alert to the possibilities.
Points of Order
Debate between Hilary Benn and John Bercow
Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Could you advise the House whether you received any indication earlier today from the Prime Minister as to why he was unable or unwilling to come to the House this afternoon to make the statement that we have just heard? His refusal to do so means that the House has had no opportunity to question him about these matters, whereas last Friday he gave the press the chance to do that in a press conference. Is not that a gross discourtesy to the House? Furthermore, given the number of questions asked of the Secretary of State this afternoon that he was unable to answer—I feel sorry for him, because he has been dumped in it—can you confirm that you would make time available later today for the Prime Minister to come to the House to make a statement if he can finally find the time and the will to do so?
Mr Speaker
I am grateful to the shadow Leader of the House for his point of order. The answer to his first question is no. I received no communication of the kind to which he referred. The second point that I would make to him is that it is always open to a Minister, if he or she so wishes, to come to the House at any time to make a statement on an important matter that is of interest both to the Government and to the House.
Points of Order
Debate between Hilary Benn and John Bercow(13 years, 6 months ago)
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Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. We have today, for the second week in a row, had a written statement, followed by a prime ministerial press conference, followed by an oral statement. Last week it was on the Health and Social Care Bill, today it was on sentencing and legal aid. It is pretty unusual to have two statements on the same subject on the same day, but do you share my concern that it is discourteous to the House, because it means that the media have a chance to question Ministers on policy—the Prime Minister in the last two cases—before Members of this House get the chance to ask questions? As such, it is not in keeping with the spirit of our rules.
Mr Speaker
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his point of order and for notice of it. I have made clear my view that important announcements of policy should be made first to this House, with the opportunity of questioning Ministers. Although I understand the pressures of the 24/7 news agenda, that remains my firm view. I am therefore uneasy at sequences of events in which a written ministerial statement is followed, or even preceded, by briefing outside the House, with the opportunity to question Ministers in the House by means of an urgent question or following an oral statement coming only some time later.
The House will recall that, on 20 July last year, it asked the Procedure Committee to consider whether the rules of the House should be changed. The Committee reported in February, and the Government’s reply was published a month ago. There are thus matters awaiting resolution by the House itself. In the meantime, the right hon. Gentleman may be assured that I will remain vigilant in the House’s interests, and will be ready to use my powers to permit questioning or debate if I see fit to do so, and indeed for such period as I see fit. I hope that is helpful.
Points of Order
Debate between Hilary Benn and John Bercow(13 years, 6 months ago)
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Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. The House is only too well aware of the mess that the Government have made of the handling of the Health and Social Care Bill, but today’s Order Paper reveals that they are now outrageously and desperately trying to deny the House the right to decide whether it wishes to recommit the whole Bill to a Committee. Can you confirm, Mr Speaker, that not only would the business motion tabled by the Leader of the House specifically prevent the tabling of any amendment on the form of recommittal to the motion tabled by the Secretary of State for Health, which will appear on tomorrow’s Order Paper—for example, an amendment proposing the recommittal of the whole Bill—but if tonight’s motion were objected to, there would be no debate on recommittal tomorrow?
Is it possible, Mr Speaker, for you to prevent that from happening, and protect the rights of Members, by establishing, under Standing Order 83B, a programming committee that could meet and pass a motion today which might enable us to have a proper debate tomorrow, with amendments, by invoking one of the exceptions in Standing Order 83A to the rule that programme motions should be taken forthwith?
Can you also tell us, Mr Speaker, whether, if the motion tabled by the Leader of the House is passed tonight, it will be in order for Members to argue in tomorrow’s debate that the whole Bill should be recommitted, especially as a motion in the name of the Leader of the Opposition calling for precisely that has been on the Order Paper since 24 May?
Mr Speaker
I am grateful to the shadow Leader of the House for his point of order and for giving me notice of it. The right hon. Gentleman has raised a series of very important matters, and I think that it is important to both him and the House for me to respond to them.
Mr Speaker
Will the hon. Gentleman allow me to deal with the point of order from the shadow Leader of the House? If after I have done so he remains dissatisfied, I will of course deal with any ensuing point of order.
Let me say first that the shadow Leader of the House is correct in supposing that if the Business of the House motion were objected to tonight, the programme (No. 2) motion would be put without debate or opportunity for amendment tomorrow. That is, as a matter of procedure, factually correct. The programme (No. 2) motion would be put without debate, as are all such motions varying or supplementing a programme order, unless they fall into one of the four exceptions listed in Standing Order No. 83A. The motion to be moved tomorrow is not covered by any of those exceptions, and so would ordinarily be put forthwith.
Secondly, there will indeed be no opportunity to move amendments. If the Business of the House motion is agreed tonight, the programme (No. 2) motion will be debated for up to an hour tomorrow, but no amendments may be moved. The same would apply if the motion were taken forthwith in accordance with Standing Order No. 83A. It would still be open to Members to table such amendments today to appear on the Order Paper tomorrow, but either way, under our procedures they could not be moved.
The right hon. Gentleman asked a very important question, namely whether it would be in order in the debate on the programme (No. 2) motion tomorrow to argue that the whole Bill, not just the clauses specified, should be recommitted, to which the explicit answer is yes. It would be possible to argue that more or less of the Bill ought to be recommitted, or, of course, to argue against recommittal altogether.
I understand the right hon. Gentleman’s concern about the matter as a whole—and he referred specifically to the position set out by the Leader of the Opposition last month—but the House is not being asked to agree to anything that is out of order. It is for the House to decide on the motions before it. As for the particular question of a programming committee, I can tell the right hon. Gentleman and the House that the Standing Order relating to such committees would apply only to proceedings on the Floor of the House, and the initial programme Order of 31 January specifically excluded the operation of a programming committee on this Bill.
Whether my response is welcome or unwelcome to different Members in the various parts of the House, I hope that Members will accept that it has been fully thought through, and has been offered on the basis of the Standing Orders of the House.
Mr Speaker
Of course I will take a follow-up point of order from the shadow Leader of the House.
Hilary Benn
Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. I am extremely grateful to you for your comprehensive response. The Health and Social Care Bill programme motion passed on 31 January disapplied Standing Order 83B, which relates to programming committees only in relation to consideration and Third Reading, and which does not apply to Committee stage. If that is the case, could not a programming committee bring the matter within scope by the device of now suggesting a Committee of the whole House, which would therefore ensure that, even if that Committee of the whole House were not to be agreed to tomorrow, first, there would be a debate and, secondly, we could consider amendments?
Mr Speaker
I hear what the right hon. Gentleman says, but it is my understanding that a programming committee relates to the proceedings on the Floor of the House, and I think he is in some difficulty if he is praying it in aid in support of the proposition he has just made. If I am mistaken, no doubt I will be advised, and if he does not think that I have fully seized the gravamen of his point, he is welcome to return to it because these are important matters, but that is the best initial response I can offer.
Business of the House
Debate between Hilary Benn and John Bercow(13 years, 10 months ago)
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Hilary Benn
I am grateful to the Leader of the House for that reply. On his submission to the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority review, which has been published this morning in a written statement, may I welcome what it says about the need for fundamental reform? That view is forcefully shared right across the House, and we all hope that IPSA will listen.
On counter-terrorism, the shadow Home Secretary has offered cross-party talks to draft emergency legislation, but it is still not in the Library. The Government said in their review last week that using a statutory instrument would be very difficult in the event of a major incident. May we have an update?
Last night, we saw just how unpopular the plan is to sell off our woodlands and forests, with several Members on the Government Benches voting against the Government. Lib Dems will have noticed that they do not have a single Minister in the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. I pity them, having to reply to all those e-mails to explain why they voted for a policy that they must, in their hearts, loathe. At least their president, the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron), had the courage to speak out and vote with us on that. May we have a detailed statement from the Environment Secretary on the extraordinary claim she made this week, which was repeated by the Prime Minister yesterday, that the reason for the sale is an apparent conflict of interest between the Forestry Commission’s roles as a regulator and as a seller of timber? As a former Environment Secretary, may I tell the Leader of the House that, in my three years in the job, not a single person raised this matter with me? The House is entitled to know what the Secretary of State has discovered in just nine months that none of her predecessors worried about in the 90 years since the Forestry Commission was founded. This is a bad policy looking for an excuse.
I must hand it to the Government, however, and give them credit where it is due. Given that the proposal might not even save any money, it takes a special kind of genius to unite just about everyone else against it. The truth is that people do not agree with it and they do not want it; even No. 10 is now briefing that it does not think it has been very well presented. So not for the first time I say to the right hon. Gentleman that the Government are going to have to change their mind.
Talking of which, there has been much comment this week about the Prime Minister having to come to the rescue of the Health and Social Care Bill because it, too, has been poorly presented. Will the Prime Minister come to the House to explain whether he blames himself for that, given the revelation this week that he is having trouble persuading his own brother-in-law, an NHS cardiologist, that the upheaval is a good idea? His brother-in-law is apparently worried that hospitals will be disadvantaged. If the Prime Minister cannot even reassure his own family about the proposals—and the Health Secretary certainly cannot persuade the House—is it any wonder that the public are not buying them? Will the Leader of the House ensure that we have enough time in Committee properly to consider the Bill, because, to judge from the Second Reading debate, there are still far more questions than there are answers?
May we have a debate on one of the greatest achievements of the previous Labour Government: Sure Start? [Interruption.] It is interesting to hear Conservative Members jeering Sure Start. Before the election, the Prime Minister went up and down the country—we have certainly heard that one before—saying that he was strongly committed to it. He promised that he would back it. He even had the nerve to criticise my right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) for trying to frighten people about this; and his right-hand man, who is now the Education Secretary, said:
“On Sure Start, we won’t cut funding”.
It could not have been clearer. Except that we now learn that the budget is going to be cut. A survey by the Daycare Trust and 4Children shows that 250 Sure Start centres are expected to close in the next 12 months, and six of them are going to be chopped by the Tories’ own flagship borough, Hammersmith and Fulham. It is no wonder that parents are worried sick. Another week, another betrayal. Will the right hon. Gentleman explain why anyone should now trust any promise made by the Prime Minister before 6 May?
Finally, I have not only been reading the Leader of the House’s submission to IPSA; I have also been reading his blog. Musing on hard times, he wrote:
“I predict that The Times list of the most popular girls’ names in the year may include a new one—Austerity.”
May I predict in return that, when it comes to boys’ names this year, Dave, George and Nick are not going to be very popular? If the right hon. Gentleman is looking for alternatives, may I suggest Complacency, Incompetency and, as for the Deputy Prime Minister, that is a really easy one: Duplicity? What is in a name? A lot!
Mr Speaker
I think I will take the last observation as a joke, but in any other context the use of the word “duplicity” would not be appropriate. I am sure, however, that good humour is what was intended by the shadow Leader of the House.
European Union Bill
Debate between Hilary Benn and John Bercow(13 years, 11 months ago)
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Mr Speaker
I have ruled on the matter. The appointment has been made; the disqualification is a fact. Beyond that, I do not think that I can realistically or reasonably be expected to elaborate.
Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)
Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. There is quite an important issue here about the nature of an application, because if, for the sake of argument, a Member were to express the view that they might feel like resigning from the House, the Chancellor might then appoint them and they would find themselves disqualified. Surely there must be a clear procedure for making it transparent that the Member in question has applied for the Chiltern Hundreds. The question that is being asked—a question to which the House would like an answer—is: was an application made in this case specifically for the Chiltern Hundreds which then led the Chancellor of the Exchequer to make the appointment, and was it accepted?
Mr Speaker
I am grateful to the shadow Leader of the House for his point of order, but the matter to which he has just referred—whether an application for the Chiltern Hundreds has been made—is, I am afraid, not a matter for me. The matter has been addressed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the execution of his responsibilities, and this is one of those occasions on which it is right for me to communicate the facts of the situation, but not to wallow in the realms of metaphysical abstraction, if I can put it that way.
Points of Order
Debate between Hilary Benn and John Bercow(13 years, 11 months ago)
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Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. We are just about to start an extremely important debate on the scrapping of education maintenance allowances. By my calculation, five Members will now be unable to take part in that debate because we have just had a statement that could perfectly well have been made yesterday. Have you been notified by the Minister’s office why it was necessary to have the statement on an Opposition day, and do you not agree that it is highly desirable that statements should not be made on those days unless absolutely necessary?
Mr Speaker
The short answer to the right hon. Gentleman’s challenge is no. It is, of course, for the Government to decide whether and when to put on a statement, but my answer stands. I hope that is helpful to the House.
Business of the House (Thursday)
Debate between Hilary Benn and John Bercow(14 years ago)
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Hilary Benn
I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman is in urgent need of a history lesson because I do not recognise what he is describing. There is a profound difference. [Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. We cannot have great eruptions of noise any time a Member chooses, for whatever reason, to leave the Chamber. Members will want to listen to Mr Hilary Benn.
Hilary Benn
The point is this: there is a profound difference between the previous system, which was a way of raising additional finance for our universities, and the enormous reduction in funding for our universities that this increase in fees is based upon. That is why it is completely different.
Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker, the right hon. Gentleman’s remarks do not refer to the timings or business of the House.
Mr Speaker
I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his point of order. I am keenly attending to the debate, but I know that he—very distinguished man though he is—would not try to tell me how to do my job.
Hilary Benn
Lord Browne went on to state:
“Over the last year, we have consulted widely and intensively. Our recommendations are based on written and oral evidence drawn from students, teachers, academics, employers and regulators. We have looked…at every aspect of implementing them – financial, practical and educational – to ensure that the recommendations we are making are realistic for the long term.”
The most important words in that quotation are these:
“Over the last year, we have consulted widely and intensively.”
[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. I am trying to listen intently to what the shadow Leader of the House is saying, but the hubbub is too great. It is calming down now and we will hear the shadow Leader.
Hilary Benn
As I said, the quote from Lord Browne is:
“Over the last year, we have consulted widely and intensively.”
[Interruption.] If hon. Members will be patient, they will see what this has got to do with the business motion before us tonight. Let us compare the length of time that Lord Browne took in preparing his proposals to what is before the House tonight. The Browne committee had a year to consider what it recommended; the House is to be given five hours to consider the recommendations and dispose of them. Everybody else was consulted at length, but MPs are to be given just five hours to express a view.
Mr Speaker
I had been watching and listening closely, and I was conscious—I was about to comment on the fact—that a rather animated and protracted exchange seemed to be taking place between the hon. Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) and the Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office. Whether some sort of private salon was taking place I do not know, but it must not do so. We must listen to the debate, so no taunting should take place at all. Let us listen to Mr Hilary Benn.
Hilary Benn
I think I was in the process of giving way to the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart).
Hilary Benn
I can be held responsible for many things, but I am afraid that the use of fire alarms at the university of Reading is not one of them. [Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. There are people chuntering from a sedentary position and urging the hon. Member for Portsmouth North (Penny Mordaunt) to name the people who set off the fire alarms. That would be entirely disorderly and we are not going to have it.
Mr Speaker
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I do not know about fire alarms, but people are certainly letting off steam. They have now done so, and we must return to the important subject of the debate on this relatively narrow motion.
Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab)
Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. Sadly, I did not go to university, but during my time in the fire service, setting off fire alarms was considered to be a very irresponsible act.
Mr Speaker
We are all grateful to have the benefit of the hon. Gentleman’s experience, and for that recitation of his curriculum vitae, but we must now return to the debate.
Hilary Benn
Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.
The sense of outrage that is certainly felt on this side of the Chamber is of course shared by those on the Liberal Democrat Benches. The hon. Member for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland) is not in his place tonight, but he has tabled an early-day motion, which many Members have signed, that makes an eloquent plea for more time.
Mr Speaker
Order. That is at the very least extremely tangential to the matter that we are supposed to be discussing, and I know that the shadow Leader of the House would not for one moment seek to dilate on the subject of the localism Bill. I know that he is going to proceed with his speech in an orderly way.
Hilary Benn
Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. As far as the identity of that Bill is concerned, I was going to observe only that it is a mystery. No doubt all will be revealed to us in due course.
Mr Speaker
Order. The trouble with that intervention is that it has nothing to do with the allocation of time. The hon. Gentleman has put his point on the record, and he was very cheeky.
Hilary Benn
The point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mark Tami) may have something to do with the length of time that it would take some of those Ministers to return to cast their vote.
Mr Lammy
Is my right hon. Friend aware that just as this House is being denied a full debate, the Minister responsible for universities, who is on the Front Bench now, has been invited to sit-ins at the London School of Economics and the School of Oriental and African Studies but has not attended? Is it my right hon. Friend’s expectation that the Minister will go and talk to the students who will be gathering in this House and outside before the debate and after it tomorrow—
Mr Speaker
Order. That may be a point of interest to the right hon. Gentleman, but it is somewhat wide of the terms of the motion. Mr Hilary Benn.
Hilary Benn
Thank you, Mr Speaker. I think that the very least the architect of the policy could do, particularly in view of the pledge he signed before the election, is go and talk to students and explain why he has changed his mind.
Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)
Many Members have tonight mentioned the fact that constituents of theirs—students and potential students—will be coming down tomorrow to lobby their MPs. Is my right hon. Friend aware that under the “#” tag “name and shame” on Twitter there is a growing list of names of MPs from the Conservative and Liberal Democrat parties who have refused to meet the students coming down tomorrow? I suspect they are refusing to meet them tomorrow because they will be too busy attending tomorrow’s debate. Does that not suggest that we ought to postpone tomorrow’s debate so that they have time to meet their constituents who are coming down tomorrow?
Mr Speaker
Order. There is mounting evidence that Members are referring to matters outside the Chamber as a not very subtle ruse to try to get their point across in the House, but unfortunately they are then almost always outwith the terms of the motion. We have had a few examples of that, but I hope we will not have any more. Mr Hilary Benn.
Mr Speaker
Order. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, to whom I listened courteously, but there must be no further dilation on the subject of the motorway network. I do not think that that will aid our debate. I know that the shadow Leader of the House will respond to the hon. Gentleman’s point briefly, and then develop his further arguments.
Hilary Benn
I agree with my hon. Friend. It is an outrage, as I indicated earlier.
I wanted to say something about the amount of time that we may actually get tomorrow to debate this subject. Although the five hours that we have been offered is a 30-minute improvement on the previous period allocated, it is not absolutely guaranteed. That is because although the Leader of the House has just told us that the Government do not intend to make any statements tomorrow, it is possible that some matter may arise. You, Mr Speaker, may receive a request for an urgent question, and if that is granted we would lose time, as we will if Government Back Benchers suddenly decide they want to raise numerous lengthy points of order. If either of those eventualities arose, the British public and Members of the House would be denied even the paltry five hours being offered by the Leader of the House.
Kevin Brennan
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. As the Leader of the House has ignored the moment of interruption in his motion, by setting 5.30 as the time for the end of the debate tomorrow, is there any procedure by which a manuscript amendment could be tabled during the course of this debate, to extend tomorrow’s debate up until the normal moment of interruption, when any debate on a Thursday should end?
Mr Speaker
The short answer to the hon. Gentleman is that it is open to any Member to table a manuscript amendment. Whether the amendment is selected is a matter for the Chair. The Chair would consider a manuscript amendment if and when it were submitted. That is the situation.
Hilary Benn
I am sure that the House is extremely grateful for that guidance, Mr Speaker.
Mr Speaker
Order. First, my strong impression is that the hon. Gentleman’s intervention is beyond the scope of the debate. Secondly, it is longer than is desirable or acceptable. Interventions need to be shorter from now on.
Hilary Benn
I wish I could help the hon. Gentleman by answering his question, but I cannot. One of the people who could help him is sitting on the Government Bench, but I do not know whether he will want to intervene on me to give the hon. Gentleman the information he seeks. This provides another powerful reason to have more time tomorrow to answer the hon. Gentleman’s question and many other questions that right hon. and hon. Members will want to ask.
I shall make a little more progress. One issue that the House will need more time to debate tomorrow is the potential financial consequence of the fee increase, which is presaged on an 80% reduction in funding for institutions that right hon. and hon. Members have the honour to represent in their constituencies. We still do not know for certain by how much each university is going to be affected by the introduction of the near-trebling of fees, particularly when universities are also going to be affected by other changes. For example, we know that the regional development agencies are being abolished, that the funds for regional development, some of which have been used in partnership with institutions of higher education, are being reduced and that the local economic partnerships have not been properly established in many places because of the state of chaos. Universities do not know how much they might have to find in the current financial year, never mind the impact that these tuition fee changes will have. This could affect students this year and in subsequent years as the transition from the current to the new system is managed. These are all questions that we need time to debate.
Chris Williamson
My right hon. Friend has been extremely generous in giving way this evening and I am very grateful to him for his kindness in giving way to me on this occasion. Does he agree that restricting the debate to five hours will give scant time for me to raise the concerns that I know exist in Derby in respect of Derby university? It has been calculated that, as a result of the 80% reduction to which he referred, that university will have a financial black hole of about £30 million. It will find it extremely difficult to increase tuition fees to the level that would be necessary—
Mr Speaker
Order. First, there is the issue of scope. Secondly, I know that the hon. Gentleman, who is a very well-behaved man, would not seek to make a speech when he is supposed to be making an intervention. [Interruption.] Order. He has registered his point, to which I know the shadow Leader of the House will want to respond.
Hilary Benn
Thank you, Mr Speaker. I believe that my hon. Friend should have the opportunity tomorrow precisely to put that question to the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills.
Hilary Benn
I am surprised and concerned to hear that news. It seems from what my hon. Friend says that the right hon. Gentleman is willing to spend more time in the television studios describing the changing positions of his party than he is prepared to spend talking to students who are going to feel the consequences of what he is proposing
I turn to a difficulty that might arise for all Members tomorrow, because all we are discussing—I say “all” in a contextual sense—is two statutory instruments. Here I seek guidance from the Leader of the House and possibly from you, Mr Speaker. The House will be aware of the rules governing the scope of debate on statutory instruments. A little while ago, I promised that I would quote from “Erskine May”, and page 681 states:
“Debate on any statutory instrument, whether subject to the affirmative or the negative procedure, is confined to the contents of the instrument, and discussion of alternative methods of achieving its object is not in order. Where the effects of an instrument are confined to a particular geographical area or areas, discussion of other areas is out of order. Nor is criticism of the provisions of the parent Act permitted.”
Mr Speaker, does that mean that Members will be restricted tomorrow in what they can discuss and what they can say? Does it mean, for example, that Opposition Members who would wish to argue the case for a graduate tax cannot raise it in the debate? Could they be ruled out of order? If right hon. and hon. Members want to refer to the implications of the proposals for other parts of the United Kingdom, will they be ruled out of order? Were that to be the case, it would show how improper is the Government’s decision to bring the statutory instrument before the House tomorrow. If that interpretation of “Erskine May” is applied—
Mr Speaker
Order. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will resume his seat. I am not sure whether his inquiry was a genuine one or a rhetorical one, but he has referred to the fact of the motion and the narrow terms of the statutory instrument, and he raises the concern about how much scope there will be for Members fully to develop their points. It might help him and the House if I point out that the two—the motion and the SI tomorrow—have been conflated for the purposes of the consideration, and the intention of the Chair would be to adopt a broad and generous interpretation of what could legitimately be said in the debate. I hope that that is helpful to Members in all parts of the House.
Hilary Benn
It was a genuine inquiry, Mr Speaker, and I am extremely grateful to you for your guidance. When I read that section in “Erskine May”, I was genuinely concerned that Members might be denied the opportunity to have the full debate that we require tomorrow.
Business without Debate
Debate between Hilary Benn and John Bercow(14 years ago)
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Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Government are clearly in a state of chaos when it comes to tuition fees. Yesterday, the Leader of the House tried to move a motion and it was objected to, much to the anger of the Chief Whip, as you know. Today, the Leader of the House tabled one motion in his own name and two motions in the name of the Prime Minister but, as we have just seen, did not have the courage to move the motion in his own name.
I am sure that you understand the deep sense of anger that there is in the House at the amount of time that the Government are proposing to give Members on Thursday to debate the biggest change in tuition fees and support for higher education that we have ever seen. Since the House is being treated with contempt by the Government, may we now have a statement from the Leader of the House to tell us what on earth is going on? Will he indicate how much time we will have on Thursday to debate the increase in tuition fees? [Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his point of order. The concern of the Chair is always that matters should be handled in an orderly manner. [Interruption.] Order. That has happened, whatever the disquiet or consternation the right hon. Gentleman or others may feel. I know that he will understand that it would not be right for me, from the Chair, to say anything more on the matter. His concerns have, however, been forcefully registered.
Points of Order
Debate between Hilary Benn and John Bercow(14 years, 1 month ago)
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Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I raised with you yesterday in a point of order the amount of time that the House would have to debate the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill when there was a possibility of there being one statement today. We have now had two statements that have taken an hour and 10 minutes out of our time. Members will, I think, find it particularly galling that one of those statements is the result of the leak on damages settlements, on which we have just heard the Justice Secretary report to the House. In these circumstances, Mr Speaker, what protection can Members be offered so that we have the opportunity properly to debate and discuss a major constitutional Bill that will change the way in which our democracy operates?
Mr Speaker
I have heard what the right hon. Gentleman has said and I fully understand the seriousness of his point. The short answer, however, is that these decisions—that is to say, decisions on the timing of Government business—are ultimately for others to make. Specifically, these matters are in the hands of the usual channels and, in particular, of the Government. The right hon. Gentleman might wish that it were otherwise, and many might agree with him, but that is the position as it stands. However, I simply say to him, as I was able to say to him yesterday, that his opposite number, the Leader of the House, is present. He will have heard what has been said and it is open to the Leader of the House to respond if he so wishes.
Points of Order
Debate between Hilary Benn and John Bercow(14 years, 1 month ago)
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Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. At business questions last week, I asked the Leader of the House whether it was the Government’s intention, when the House considers the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill tomorrow, to provide injury time if a statement were to be made. The Leader of the House replied that it was not the Government’s intention to do so. I have written to you about this, Mr Speaker. I understand that there is a possibility of a statement tomorrow. I do not know whether you have been given any indication of that, but given that on the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill, there were clauses that we did not have the chance to reach, even with injury time, and given that the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill is an important constitutional Bill, it is important that the House has proper time, if there is to be a statement. Have you had an indication from the Leader of the House that he has had a rethink and wants to come back to the House and give a different answer?
Mr Speaker
I am grateful to the shadow Leader of the House for his point of order, and for giving me advance notice of it. Moreover, I have of course received the letter from the right hon. Gentleman of Friday 12 November. First, I have not received any indication, formal or informal, of a statement tomorrow. Sometimes by this point I would have done, but by no means always, so there may be a statement tomorrow or there may not be. I do not know.
Secondly, I think the right hon. Gentleman would testify and the record shows that where matters are within the gift of the Chair, the instinct of the Chair is always to facilitate full and thorough debate and analysis of all matters of policy and legislation. Sadly, in relation to a matter of this kind, the decision—no matter how worthy the cause—is not in the hands of the Chair. It is a matter for the business managers. However, my eye has alighted upon the Deputy Leader of the House. The Leader of the House is not present and therefore cannot respond. The Deputy Leader of the House is present and can, if he so wishes, offer a response to the right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn). A simple nod or shake of the head will suffice.
Points of Order
Debate between Hilary Benn and John Bercow(14 years, 1 month ago)
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Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Following your reporting earlier of the certificate issued by the election court in the case involving the Oldham East and Saddleworth constituency, as the case raises important questions it would be sensible for the House to pause before considering a by-election writ, for two reasons.
First, the matter is the subject of continuing legal proceedings by Mr Woolas, as you reported to the House at 2.30, and it seems only proper that the proceedings are allowed to conclude. Secondly—without wishing to stray at all into the details of the case, which we should not do because, as you have ruled, it is sub judice under the terms of the resolution passed by the House in 2001—if the judgment were to be overturned and the former Member were reinstated, but in the meantime we had held a by-election and another Member had been elected, we could end up with two Members of Parliament for one constituency, and that would hardly be desirable.
It seems to me that the prudent and practical course of action is to allow the legal process to be concluded before the House considers the writ.
Mr Speaker
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman. He has made his points with great clarity.