Egypt: British Support

Gregory Campbell Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd March 2016 Westminster Hall

[Kwasi Kwarteng (Spelthorne) (Con)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered British support for stability in Egypt.

It is a great honour to introduce this debate. I refer Members to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. I visited Egypt many times before I came to this place: I went there as a student and in 2008 I spent a month in Cairo trying to learn Arabic—very unsuccessfully, I should add. I have also had the honour of visiting Egypt many times on parliamentary delegations with the Conservative Middle East Council and others.

This is a timely and important debate, for a number of reasons. First, we need only open the newspaper every day or look online to see the absolute turmoil that much of the region has plunged into. I am also conscious of the fact that a lot of the turmoil and confusion that has crept into our world has emerged very recently. I recall travelling to Egypt for the first time in 1998. There had been a terrorist outrage in Luxor in 1997, a terrible incident in which dozens of people were killed, but when I visited—obviously this was all before 9/11—there was a real optimism about the place. It was a broadly secular country: people could walk freely, there was no real pressure for women to dress in any particular way and alcohol was served freely. It was a country looking towards a bright future.

It is not my place to go through the recent history of the region today, but as a consequence of what has happened there in the past 15 years since the events of 9/11, and everything that has been going on since the Arab spring, the need for stability in Egypt and its role in the world have increased. The mood there has been a lot more pessimistic, and its people and Government have gone through a very difficult past five years.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate. The Egyptian people and nation are central to the middle east. Does he agree that it is crucial for the future wellbeing of the middle east and the wider region that Egypt restores itself to a position of centrality and stability in order to spread that across the region?

[Kwasi Kwarteng]

The hon. Gentleman has highlighted very pithily—more pithily than I did—the key fact that Egypt is absolutely central to the Arab world. We need only look at the numbers: something like 90 million people—well over a third of the Arabic-speaking people across the globe—live in Egypt. In Al-Azhar University, Egypt has one of the key centres of Islamic scholarship and learning. Egyptian media dominate the Arabic-speaking world. The Egyptian Arabic dialect is widely understood across the Arab world.

Egypt is also important for historic reasons. In the 20th century we need only look at the careers of Nasser, Sadat and Mubarak. These were huge figures in the Arab world who played a role in securing stability in this important region. As the hon. Gentleman said, Egypt is therefore absolutely central to any form of stability or solution to the ongoing problems in the middle east. I called for this debate because we need to recognise, in this Parliament, throughout the country and throughout the international community, that stability in Egypt is crucial and we should all be investing heavily in it.

Although Egypt has attained a modicum of stability, people will recognise that the degree of stability that has been reached is not complete. There are still dangers. We saw an appalling terrorist outrage in November, when a Russian civilian aircraft was blown up in the sky with huge loss of life. There are threats still lurking in the Egyptian scene. Although there is a terrorist threat, it must be admitted that the Egyptian Government have taken some very severe steps. As friends of Egypt—as people who are interested, in every sense of the word, in maintaining stability in and supporting Egypt—it is our job to ask probing questions about its Government’s treatment of political prisoners and people who have expressed doubts about or even opposition to the regime. It is our job to ensure that the Egyptian Government are held to the highest standards with respect to human rights and individual freedoms. I do not deny that at all.

Many people in Britain view some developments in Egypt with considerable concern. I need only mention the Italian University of Cambridge PhD student who was found killed, clearly murdered, in Cairo six weeks ago. We do not know what happened and we have not heard any definitive answers from the regime. The Egyptian Government cannot simply be given a blank cheque by their friends and allies in the west. I regard myself as a friend of Egypt—broadly speaking, Britain and the British Government are friends of Egypt—but being a friend does not mean that we blindly accept everything that the Egyptian Government do, nor does it mean that we should acquiesce or turn a blind eye to the outrages or abuses we have identified.

Child Prisoners and Detainees: Occupied Palestinian Territories

Gregory Campbell Excerpts

Wednesday 6th January 2016 Westminster Hall

[Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab)]

I will speak briefly, although I must first congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham (Sarah Champion) on an excellent speech and on securing the debate. The number of Members in attendance—I think there are almost 50—shows the importance that is given to this issue. I am sure that we will not do justice to the number of briefings we have received. I will only refer to one, which is from Lawyers for Palestinian Human Rights. It goes beyond the many compelling individual cases that we have read about in those briefings and talks about the basic legal issues.

To return to the point I made in my intervention, paragraph 4 of that briefing says:

“There is an inextricable link between the systemic human rights violations of Palestinian children held in military detention and the overarching context of prolonged military occupation. The realisation of the right to self-determination for the Palestinian people is the optimum solution for the complete removal of ‘widespread, systematic and institutionalised’ violations against Palestinian children held in military detention.”

Now, some of my hon. Friends may think that that is rather stating the obvious, but given some of the comments today, I think it is worth putting on the record because some Members seem to be living in an Alice in Wonderland world. The speech that we have just heard is very illustrative of that point because, according to that, the blame for all that goes wrong in the occupied territories apparently lies with the Palestinian people. There is a very easy solution to that, which is to let the Palestinians govern themselves. Last year, this House voted to allow them to police themselves in that way and not to lead to this situation.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

--- Later in debate ---

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

Personally, I am someone who has huge respect for what Israel has achieved since its formation on 14 May 1948. Without doubt, modern Israel has been forged and inspired by what happened in the holocaust. Obviously, its foundation goes back far beyond that, but to my mind its inspiration is the fact that Jews from across the world have and can find a safe refuge there where they will never be persecuted.

It is utterly wrong that any human being should be condemned for their race or faith, but it still happens, as we all know. For Jews, the state of Israel is thus their ultimate sanctuary and insurance policy should they feel a need for it. We all understand that. Israel is also a real democracy, in a region where the majority popular writ is not greatly seen in many Governments. As such, Israel is a modern inspired state where what people think and want can be reflected in politics. Elections matter and reflect what the majority of people want to happen. Israel also has, and should have, respect for law and order. In democracies all citizens are equal before the law.

[Mr Gregory Campbell]

Previously, the hon. Gentleman indicated an issue that he felt was getting to the very nub of the problem. He is now discussing the history of the origin of the state of Israel. Does he agree with me that part of the nub of the problem is that in the middle east there is still a belief among some that peace will only come with the utter annihilation of the state of Israel?

Saudi Arabia

Gregory Campbell Excerpts

Tuesday 5th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Ellwood]

My hon. Friend makes a powerful point that needs to be underlined in this Chamber. The organisation that is the most brutal in its failure to recognise any form of human rights is Daesh. It plays upon that fact, promising a better life to those who are attracted to make the journey to its self-imposed caliphate. It is a false promise; to the girls and boys who end up there, and on what happens when they eventually die, because they will not go to heaven and be rewarded for their actions.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

The Minister referred to our close relationship with Saudi Arabia but said that that should not mean that we shy away from raising legitimate human rights concerns. Does he understand that the concern that many people have, both in this House and across the United Kingdom, is that commercial considerations are doing precisely that? What can he say, and what can the Government do, to ensure that commercial considerations are not being put ahead of human rights concerns, both for religious minorities and females?

[Mr Ellwood]

I touched on that in my statement and have made it very clear that no aspect of our commercial relationship with Gulf countries, including Saudi Arabia, prevents us from speaking frankly, and indeed openly, about human rights challenges. We will not pursue trade to the exclusion of human rights; they can and should be complementary.

British Council

Gregory Campbell Excerpts

Tuesday 10th November 2015 Westminster Hall

[Stephen Kinnock (Aberavon) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Vaz. I congratulate the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (David Warburton) on securing this important debate.

I must declare an interest. I worked for many years at the British Council, with overseas postings in Brussels, St Petersburg and Sierra Leone. I will always remember my time at the council fondly and with a sense of pride. In Brussels, I saw how British skills and know-how could be deployed to support the transition of the former eastern bloc countries to democracy and the market economy, through the European Commission’s aid programmes. In St Petersburg, I was proud to be the director of an operation offering young Russians the opportunity to learn English and engage in a range of cultural and educational projects. In Sierra Leone, I was honoured to be a part of the huge impact of the council’s work in building the capacity of that country’s Government. It is for those reasons and more that I am such a firm believer in the organisation we are discussing today.

As hon. Members will know, the British Council is the world’s outstanding example of a successful soft power institution. It is the model that all other countries try to emulate when developing their soft power networks. It is respected, professional and diversified and we are fortunate to have such a positive face to present to the world. As the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome has already mentioned, the council was founded to create

“a friendly knowledge and understanding between the people of the UK and the wider world”

and has been promoting the values of fairness, democracy, tolerance and dialogue across the world for decades. But the magic of the British Council is that it does not promote those values by way of megaphones or propaganda; rather, it operates through the mediums of exchange and long-term relationship building.

The council understands that communication at its best will be a two-way conversation between the UK and the rest of the world, with each side listening to and learning from the other. It is founded on the principle that the Brits do not have all the answers. It is a vehicle for building trust through honest and open dialogue, as opposed to banging the drum for Britain, which can be so counterproductive. At a time when we are more interconnected as a planet than ever before and trust is a rare commodity, the long-term trust and confidence-building work of the British Council has never been more important; its values are the ones we require if we are to minimise culture clash and the violence that can often result from it.

Through the British Council, we engage civil society in countries where the Governments are not always our closest allies. We propagate a love for our art and music around the world. We can build grassroots understanding of democratic practices, harness the power of sport to inspire and engage young people from all over the world, and promote ourselves as a top-rung tourist destination and trading partner. Through the council, we ensure that the propaganda our enemies disseminate about us is dismantled. Why then is the council facing such huge cuts, when we can all agree that its work is more important than ever?

This year, the council’s FCO grant was increased by £10 million, to reflect its effectiveness in delivering ODA.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

On the issue of spending and ODA, does the hon. Gentleman agree that the British Council’s valuable work is put in jeopardy by a reduction of more than 50%, looking back just five years, in terms of ODA spend and that that needs to be examined very closely in the forthcoming review?

[Stephen Kinnock]

I do. ODA has been given as a demonstration of the effectiveness of the council’s work in least developed countries. The major challenge the council faces is the reduction in the FCO grant, which has been eroded constantly over the years. As the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome mentioned, the fundamental problem is that that increases the council’s reliance on commercially generated funding. We all acknowledge and welcome the council’s ability to raise that type of funding, but the reduction in grant funding reduces its flexibility to operate wherever it needs to in this rapidly changing world. I absolutely agree that the reduction in the grant is having a negative impact on the council’s ability to deliver across the board.

Gibraltar and Spain

Gregory Campbell Excerpts

Wednesday 14th October 2015 Westminster Hall

[Jack Lopresti]

I agree completely. The fact is that Spain— a NATO and European ally—is so consistently and flagrantly breaking the law that it is astonishing. Spain’s ban on NATO forces moving between Gibraltar and Spain, overfly rights and travel between ports is quite simply to the detriment of western security. The fact that the Spanish will not allow RAF aircraft to overfly Spanish airspace on their way to and from Gibraltar results, I understand from the last speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Sir Gerald Howarth) in the House on the matter, in a cost to the British taxpayer of an additional £5,000 to £10,000 for each flight. Our military resources are finite. Spain seems to feel it acceptable to reduce NATO’s defensive capacity by causing totally unnecessary extra costs, yet we are bound by article 5 of the NATO Washington treaty to expend British “blood and treasure” if Spain ever finds itself under attack.

At the same time, Spain continues to allow Russian naval vessels to refuel at its territory of Ceuta. The press reported that a state-of-the-art submarine had a three-day visit to the port of Ceuta in August this year. It was allowed to take on fuel and water while its crew enjoyed shore leave and Ceuta’s amenities. It is believed that the Russian submarine was headed for the naval base at Sebastopol, although the Russian military denied that. This is at a time when NATO insists that the alliance has suspended all practical co-operation with Russia. It seems Spain organised that with Russia directly against NATO’s and Europe’s position on Russia. Will the Minister explain how that is acceptable and allowed to continue?

Spain seems to be trying to wage some sort of economic warfare on Gibraltar with the ongoing issue of border delays. As the Foreign Affairs Committee report last year made clear, much of the evidence against the border delays came from Spanish workers who commute into Gibraltar on a daily basis. That is still a major problem, but Madrid is not being successful. Gibraltar is a fantastic economic success story, with impressive economic growth. Its GDP for 2013-14 increased by more than 12% in nominal terms, and I understand that forecasts for 2014-15 show a further 10.3% increase—a higher GDP per capita, which is a measure of living standards, than the UK and Spain as a whole, and greatly higher per head than its neighbours in Andalucia. GDP per capita for Gibraltar is forecast to be £50,941 in 2014-15, a long way above that of Andalucia, where GDP per capita was £13,300 in 2014, and higher even than Madrid’s, which was £25,000 per capita in 2014. It is unsurprising that up to 10,000 Spaniards a day cross the border to work in Gibraltar.

The Chief Minister said this week in London that the OECD has confirmed that in terms of financial regulation, Gibraltar is alongside Britain, Germany and the US as the best in the world. Spain’s oft-used propaganda insinuating the opposite about Gibraltarian business has been completely discredited.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. He talks about economic warfare. Would he agree that it is actually in the Spanish Government’s and the Spanish people’s interest to come to an accommodation, accepting the people of Gibraltar’s right to be there? Economically, they could then thrive, rather than attempt to marginalise the people of Gibraltar, penalising the thousands of Spanish workers who depend on Gibraltar for their livelihoods.

[Jack Lopresti]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. This situation penalises Spain’s own people and damages its own economic prospects and success for the future. It is completely bizarre that Spain should behave in this fashion.

I turn to the matter of the Royal Navy. The two Royal Navy ships in Gibraltar are more than 20 years old and are, I understand, not the best modern option. The Government of Gibraltar have indicated that they would finance another Royal Navy vessel. Does the Minister think we should accept that offer? Regardless of that fact, the British Government should significantly increase their naval presence in the straits. That would send the clearest possible signal to Spain that we are absolutely serious about defending our strategic interests in Gibraltar and our people there.

As history has proven countless times, weakness is provocative. We should make the rules of engagement for our naval vessels more robust for clarity and to act as a deterrent. I fear there will be a tragedy sooner or later as a result of the aggressive, illegal Spanish incursions, with lives lost, if we are not clear about how serious we are.

Will the Minister tell us what the rules of engagement are for our forces operating around Gibraltar? We can draw our own conclusions about the fact that the Spanish do not harass or get too close to US navy vessels operating around Gibraltar. I would like to know how many times the British Government have protested to Spain about its hostile and illegal actions with regard to the British sovereign territory of Gibraltar. I know that since 2011, the Spanish ambassador to the Court of St James has been summoned at least five times. That puts Spain in the same category as North Korea and Syria—a completely ridiculous situation.

If the Spanish Government cannot start treating their NATO and European Union ally correctly, what can the British Government do next—recall our ambassador to Spain? Send its ambassador back? Spain’s position on Gibraltar is as if we did not accept the treaty between the US and the UK that recognised the outcome of the US war of independence. Gibraltar has been British for longer than the US has been a nation. It is time for the Spanish Government to stop using Gibraltar to mask their own problems and inadequacies and start behaving like a true NATO and European ally, with all the positive benefits that would bring for Gibraltar and the Spanish people.

--- Later in debate ---

[Drew Hendry (Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey) (SNP)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Betts. I congratulate the hon. Member for Filton and Bradley Stoke (Jack Lopresti) on this very important and timely debate on the future of Gibraltar.

I had the honour of attending the national day celebrations in Gibraltar very recently, on 10 September—a day when Gibraltar is awash with red and white and when people express their right to self-determination. It is a small nation of 29,000 people, but as we have heard from other hon. Members, their number is swelled on a daily basis by a huge intake of the Spanish people who work there.

I had the pleasure of speaking both with natives of Gibraltar and with Spanish people that day, and they are a friendly mix; they get on well. I would therefore like to underline the point made earlier. This is not a point of difference; the tensions do not exist between the Spanish people and the people of Gibraltar. The tensions exist because of the actions of the Spanish Government and, of course, the reaction or lack of reaction from the UK Government. It is important that we bear that in mind.

The people of Gibraltar live in a small nation bordered by a larger nation, a larger neighbour, but it still manages to be efficient, thriving, friendly and, as we have heard, an economic magnet—a very successful small nation. Despite the problems and constraints caused by its larger neighbour, it is able to contribute and work perfectly efficiently and well under its own steam. The people of Gibraltar have the right to continue to express their need for, and their absolute right to, self-determination. People who live there must be absolutely safe and able to conduct their business. The incursions into Gibraltar’s territorial waters, the problems that it has had to put up with and the manufactured situations that have been set up to put it under what can only be described as intimidation are not acceptable, and no small nation should find themselves in such a position.

We heard from the hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill) about the attempt to undermine the economic position of Gibraltar, and that is not acceptable either. Gibraltar is a nation that can survive perfectly well on its own and that performs perfectly well on its own. It has had to put up with incursions into territorial waters and manufactured border delays where people have had to wait for hours and hours to cross the border. Gibraltar has experienced incursions, in violation of its aviation rights. In August there was an incident, as we have heard, involving the discharging of firearms in territorial waters, which put at risk not only people from Gibraltar but citizens of other nations who were present, including UK citizens. That is not acceptable behaviour, and nobody should have to put up with it.

The people of Gibraltar have made and continue to make Gibraltar. Gibraltar is a nation with a right—I have said this many times, but I am not afraid to repeat it—to self-determination and to control its own affairs, as a nation does. Its constitutional future should be determined by the people who live there, not by their neighbour. The Spanish Government say that Gibraltar has no right to self-determination.

[Mr Gregory Campbell]

The hon. Gentleman is rightly outlining the right of the people of Gibraltar to self-determination. Does he agree that they, like others, have expressed that right at the ballot box, and that should be respected and adhered to?

[Drew Hendry]

We are the people who defend democracy, and the ballot box is always the way to secure the constitutional position of any nation. I would certainly agree with that. The right to make constitutional decisions at the ballot box is absolutely paramount. The Spanish Government have form on the matter; they have ignored the will of Catalonia as well as this issue in Gibraltar.

When I spoke to people in Gibraltar who had been subject to incidents such as those I have described—I am sure we will hear about them later—I found that they have real concerns and fears, not only about those incursions, but about what will happen in future. They are deeply concerned about the question of EU membership. The Prime Minister must confirm what he will do to uphold Gibraltar’s right to self-determination and stand by it regardless of the outcome of the EU referendum. It is also important for the UK Government to say clearly what actions they will take to support Gibraltarians’ ability to live their daily lives safely. When Their Majesties of Spain visit in 2016, that would be an opportunity to assure support for Gibraltar and its self-determination into the future.

Finally, the Prime Minister has told us that he wants to undertake treaty negotiations ahead of the EU referendum. Regardless of the outcome of the referendum, during those negotiations the Prime Minister needs to take into account the views and concerns of the people of Gibraltar on the single market and the free movement of goods and services, and to make sure that those rights are upheld for Gibraltar in future. The people of Gibraltar have stated their will, and they are extremely motivated and concerned. They have democratically expressed their desire for self-determination, and it is the duty of this House and UK Ministers to support them in progressing that aim.

Human Rights (Saudi Arabia)

Gregory Campbell Excerpts

Tuesday 21st July 2015 Westminster Hall

[Stewart McDonald]

It is almost as though the hon. Gentleman can see my speech. I am about to go on to that very point, which he made so well.

When the Government response to the case of Raif Badawi was raised in the House of Lords, Baroness Anelay asked her fellow peers

“to recognise that the actions of the Saudi Government in these respects have the support of the vast majority of the Saudi population.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 11 June 2015; Vol. 762, c. 890.]

Will the Minister tell us exactly how the Baroness would know that? Did she, as Francis Wheen suggested in The Independent, commission Lord Ashcroft to conduct a poll of Mr Badawi’s Saudi compatriots to ask what they thought of the lashings and beheadings carried out by their Government? If the Minister were a Saudi national and had witnessed a flogging such as that which Mr Badawi and so many others have been through, how likely would he be to speak out against his own Government? I suggest that the Baroness needs to rethink her words rather urgently.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. He is referring somewhat tongue in cheek to Lord Ashcroft and polls that might have been conducted in Saudi Arabia. Does he agree that if any such poll were to be contemplated, the prospects for those carrying out the poll would be similar to those of the person he is describing in the debate?

[Stewart McDonald]

It would probably be the most undemocratic poll ever conducted. We can say a lot about polls in this country, but they are at least honest ones.

[Mr Campbell]

For the most part.

[Stewart McDonald]

For the most part, yes.

Last week, at Foreign Office questions, I asked the Minister about two specific points. I hate to say this, but I received an answer to neither, so I want to press the questions now. First, I asked whether the Minister would instruct the United Kingdom ambassador in Riyadh to request a visit to the prison in which Mr Badawi is being held so that we might get a report on his mental and physical state and on the conditions in which he is being held. Will the Minister undertake to give such an assurance?

Secondly, will the Minister state without equivocation—there is plenty of precedent for this, although funnily enough not in Saudi Arabia—that Mr Badawi should be set free? He is a prisoner of conscience and he should not be in prison. Surely the Government agree with that. If so, will the Minister please state that in his response?

Last week in the main Chamber, the Minister sought to give me some kind of reassurance: he said that the Saudi supreme court was reviewing the case. The Minister is a reasonable man, so I am sure he does not seriously expect me or the House to find any reassurance in the fact that the same justice system that put Mr Badawi where he is today is now marking its own homework to determine whether he should still be in prison. The Saudi justice system is not a normal justice system and the Saudi Government are not a normal Government—and we should stop treating them as such. The Minister might be willing to turn a blind eye, but he cannot expect us to ignore the crimes and brutal human rights abuses of which the Saudi regime is guilty.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jim Shannon]

I thank the hon. Lady for that intervention, and will put on the record that it is not just hon. Ladies who are offended by that; hon. Gentlemen are equally offended, including me. The fact that women are second-class citizens in Saudi Arabia and suffer all the deprivations that they do annoys and angers me greatly. We are holding this debate on their behalf as well.

At the time of the raid on the Christian meeting that I mentioned, it was reported that it was the latest incident in a swingeing crackdown on minorities in Saudi Arabia by the country’s hard-line commission—wait for this one—for the promotion of virtue and prevention of vice. Have we ever heard the like—the use of such words to describe the deprivation and restriction of religious liberty? The 28 Christians who were arrested were said to have been worshipping at the home of an Indian national in the eastern city Khafji when the police entered the building and took them into custody. They have not been seen or heard from since, and human rights groups are concerned about their whereabouts.

I know this is short notice for the Minister, but I ask him for a response on the case of those 28 Christians. I doubt it will be possible for him to give one today, but perhaps at a point in the future he will give the House some idea of what is happening to those people, who seem to have disappeared into the ether of Saudi Arabia, as their whereabouts are unknown.

Nina Shea, director of the Washington-based Hudson Institute’s Centre for Religious Freedom, told foxnews.com:

“Saudi Arabia is continuing the religious cleansing that has always been its official policy…It is the only nation state in the world with the official policy of banning all churches. This is enforced even though there are over two million Christian foreign workers in that country. Those victimized are typically poor, from Asian and African countries with weak governments.”

If we want to sum the situation up, we can do so in five words—all in a day’s tyranny. That is the situation for Christian people, and in Saudi Arabia it is indeed all in a day’s tyranny.

Voice of the Persecuted has said that in March Saudi Arabia’s top Muslim cleric called for the destruction of all churches in the Arabian peninsula, after legislators next door in Kuwait moved to pass laws banning the construction of religious sites associated with Christianity. Arabic media have reported that, when speaking to a delegation in Kuwait, the grand mufti of Saudi Arabia, Sheikh Abdul Aziz bin Abdullah—my pronunciation of that was not bad going for an Ulster Scot—said the destruction of churches was absolutely necessary and is required by Islamic law. Where is the freedom and religious liberty for those practising Christianity?

Abdullah is considered to be the highest official of religious law in the Sunni Muslim kingdom. He also serves as the head of the supreme council of ulema, which is the council of Islamic scholars, and of the standing committee for scientific research and issuing of fatwas. According to Arabian Business, a news site, Osama al-Munawar, a Kuwaiti Member of Parliament, has announced a plan to submit a draft law calling for the removal of all churches in the country. Al-Munawar has since clarified that that law would apply only to new churches, and that old ones would be allowed to stay standing. If the churches are allowed to stay standing, give people the religious liberty to practise their religious beliefs.

These issues are very worrying when we consider how little it takes to break such strict laws. It seems clear that we must exert what influence we have with Saudi Arabia to ensure that those who want to practise Christianity can do so without fear. In his opening remarks, the hon. Member for Glasgow South referred to contracts we have with Saudi Arabia; I will come to that in a few minutes, but it is important to note that given our business and economic contacts with Saudi Arabia we should have discussions and make efforts on behalf of Christian minorities.

[Mr Gregory Campbell]

Does my hon. Friend agree that in every context of commerce, including work by private businesses supported by our national Government, every opportunity should be taken to raise with the Government of Saudi Arabia matters such as the persecution of Christians and other minorities, and the persecution of women?

[Jim Shannon]

I totally agree with my hon. Friend. As the Minister and others who were Members in the previous Parliament will know, back in 2013 the Democratic Unionist party took the opportunity of one of our Opposition day debates to raise the issue of the religious persecution of Christians on the Floor of the House. As a result of that debate, we hoped that Ministers in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office would use their influence wherever they could across the world when religious liberty, religious minorities and human rights were being abused by countries or by dictators. I wholeheartedly support what my hon. Friend said. We need our Government, and the Minister in particular, to take a more proactive stance.

Srebrenica Genocide (20th Anniversary)

Gregory Campbell Excerpts

Tuesday 7th July 2015 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) on securing this debate and I salute his leadership in Bosnia. Along with many others in the House, I am deeply impressed by what he did in his time in command. It would be hard not to be moved by the experiences he shared in his speech and by some of the things that have happened since. I thank him for that.

We remember those who were murdered in July 1995—more than 8,000 Bosniaks, mainly men and boys, in and around the town of Srebrenica during the Bosnian war. The killing was perpetrated by units of the Army of the Republika Srpska—the VRS—under the command of General Ratko Mladic. The former Secretary-General of the United Nations, Kofi Annan, described the mass murder as the worst crime on European soil since the second world war. That gives an idea of the magnitude and horror of what took place.

I am sure that we all remember the coverage from 1995—it would be hard not to—and, as we were reminded by the first speech, it was shocking in its intensity. I can vividly recall not being able to believe or understand the senseless genocide that was taking place. I was looking at the TV and thinking, “Is this happening, or is it unreal?” Yes, it was unreal, but it was happening in front of our modern society’s eyes.

The paramilitary unit from Serbia was known as the Scorpions. The hon. Member for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers) used biblical language to describe them as a lion looking for whom to devour. That is what they were doing. They could have called themselves other names, but they chose the Scorpions, and they were known for their evil, wicked depravity and murderous thoughts. Officially, they were part of the Serbian Interior Ministry until 1991, and they participated in the massacre, along with several hundred Greek volunteers.

In January, the conviction of five men from the former Yugoslavia was upheld, which was welcome news to all those who remember the sheer horror of these events. However, more than five men were involved, and more than enough time has now passed by this, the 20th anniversary, for action to have been taken. We all believe it is time that those involved—from inside and outside Serbia—were held accountable.

In 2004, in a unanimous ruling in the case of Prosecutor v. Krstic, the appeals chamber of the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia, which is located in The Hague, ruled that the massacre of the enclave’s male inhabitants constituted genocide—a crime under international law. The evidence of the forcible transfer of between 25,000 and 30,000 Bosniak women, children and elderly people that accompanied the massacre was found to confirm the genocidal intent of the members of the VRS main staff who orchestrated the massacre and who need to be held accountable.

In 2005, in a message to the 10th anniversary commemoration of the genocide, the Secretary-General of the United Nations noted that, although blame lay first and foremost with those who planned and carried out the massacre and those who assisted and harboured them, the powers with the ability to respond had failed to do so adequately. He said that the UN had made serious errors of judgment and that the tragedy of Srebrenica would haunt its history forever, and that is clearly the case.

Serbia and Montenegro was cleared of direct responsibility for, or complicity in, the massacre, but it was found responsible for not doing enough to prevent it and for not prosecuting those responsible, in breach of the genocide convention. The preliminary list of people missing or killed in Srebrenica, which was compiled by the Bosnian Federal Commission of Missing Persons, contains 8,373 names. As of July 2012, 6,838 genocide victims had been identified through DNA analysis of body parts recovered from mass graves. As of July 2013, 6,066 victims had been buried at the memorial centre in Potocari. Almost 1,500 victims have still not been identified. Let me put that into perspective. As the hon. Member for Beckenham will know, approximately 3,000 people were killed over a 30-year terrorist campaign in Northern Ireland. In three days, almost three times that number were killed in Srebrenica.

There is a lesson that has been taught so many times, but that I fear we are not learning: we must take action before things reach this stage. An apology for a massacre is not enough. There must be a determination that we never allow these things to happen again. There must be not just words, but deeds. There is so much happening in the world that we need to act on, and it is my firm belief that action must be taken, lest our children stand in this place in 20 years’ time lamenting the fact that we allowed the actions of ISIS, among others, to happen. That is for another debate and another day, but it is not disrespectful to the memory of the men we are talking about to plead for us to learn from the inaction we saw and to take action when needed.

I was proud to be one of the hundreds of parliamentarians who signed the Remembering Srebrenica book of pledges, and I will be prouder still to be remembered as a parliamentarian, in a House of parliamentarians, who learned the lesson taught by atrocities and who honoured the memories of those who so senselessly lost their lives by doing all in my power to prevent a repeat of such atrocities.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

My hon. Friend talks about learning lessons. Does he agree that those of us who have lost loved ones in more normal circumstances cannot even begin to understand the pain and anguish felt by those who, 20 years later, still do not have the remains of their loved ones and who cannot have a burial so that they can begin to grieve properly? We have seen that in Northern Ireland over 40 years, but the scale in this case is unimaginable, and we need to do what we can to resolve the issue.

[Jim Shannon]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. It is impossible to gauge the unfathomable enormity of what took place. In Northern Ireland, people disappeared, and some of the bodies have not been accounted for. We feel for their families. However, if we magnify that a thousandfold, we get a sense of what these things mean in Bosnia.

In conclusion and as this important anniversary approaches, I hope that all political leaders in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and in the wider region, will focus not on the politics, but on the human tragedy of not just Srebrenica, but the war as a whole, and will take forward reconciliation with greater urgency. There can be no more fitting tribute to the innocent victims of war than that we remember each and every one of them today and that the Government do their best to make changes and to hold people to account. Twenty years after these events, we need to hold those responsible accountable. We all know, of course, that they will be held accountable in the next world and that they will have to come before a judgment seat to answer for what they have done, but I would like to see them get their just rewards in this world before they reach the next one.