European Union (Referendum) Bill

Baroness Laing of Elderslie Excerpts

Friday 8th November 2013 Commons Chamber

The House proceeded to a Division.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the No Lobby.

[Graham Jones]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker.

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[Madam Deputy Speaker]

No points of order are taken during a Division.

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[Chris Williamson]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Earlier this morning, I sought to make a point of order on whether there was a precedent for the use of imperial legislation. I drew the comparison between imperial legislation—[Interruption.] If hon. Members would bear with me a second—[Interruption.]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

Order.

[Chris Williamson]

I sought Mr Speaker’s guidance on whether imperial legislation was being used to cover divisions among Government Members. Mr Speaker’s response was that that did not qualify as a point of order, and he suggested that I should—[Interruption.] Hon. Members should bear with me. He suggested that I should make that point during the debate. However, I was unfortunately unable to be called in the debate. I wonder whether Mr Speaker—

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. The hon. Gentleman can resume his seat. He has already attempted to make a point of order. He has received an answer from Mr Speaker, and he may well have an opportunity at some point in the future to make a debating point during a debate, but it is not a point of order.

Clause 1

Referendum on the United Kingdom’s membership of the European Union

[Mr Bain]

I beg to move amendment 68, page 1, line 3, at end insert—

‘(1A) Before the appointment of the day on which the referendum is to be held, the Secretary of State shall consult the bodies listed in the Schedule (Organisations to be consulted before a referendum on the United Kingdom’s membership of the European Union) on the merits or otherwise of the United Kingdom remaining a member of the European Union and shall lay before Parliament a report of the consultation.’.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 76, page 1, line 4, leave out subsection 2.

Amendment 21, page 1, line 4, leave out from ‘held’ to end of line 6 and insert ‘on 7 May 2015’.

Amendment 3, page 1, line 4, leave out ‘before 31 December 2017’ and insert ‘on 23 October 2014’.

Amendment 25, page 1, line 4, leave out ‘31 December 2017’ and insert ‘1 July 2017’.

Amendment 22, page 1, line 4, leave out ‘2017’ and insert ‘2014’.

Amendment 23, page 1, line 4, leave out ‘2017’ and insert ‘2015’.

Amendment 24, page 1, line 4, leave out ‘2017’ and insert ‘2016’.

Amendment 26, page 1, line 4, leave out ‘2017’ and insert ‘2018’.

Amendment 27, page 1, line 4, leave out ‘2017’ and insert ‘2019’.

Amendment 77, page 1, line 4, after ‘2017’, insert ‘and not between 31 July and 1 December 2017’.

Amendment 4, page 1, line 5, leave out subsection (3).

Amendment 58, page 1, line 5, leave out subsection (3) and insert—

‘(3) The Secretary of State shall establish a European Union Referendum Commission to consider the date or dates on which the referendum is to be held.

(3A) The Commission shall report to the Secretary of State within 12 months of its establishment.

(3B) The Secretary of State shall by order provide for the date or dates to be implemented as recommended by the Commission.’.

Amendment 59, page 1, line 5, leave out subsection (3) and insert—

‘(3A) The Commission shall consult with and seek to secure agreement from the devolved administrations on the date or dates to be appointed for the referendum.’.

Amendment 62, page 1, line 5, leave out subsection (3) and insert—

‘(3) The date shall be appointed in accordance with the conclusions of the Speaker’s Committee for the Referendum on the United Kingdom’s membership of the European Union, as established under Schedule (Speaker’s Committee for the Referendum on the United Kingdom’s membership of the European Union).’.

Amendment 28, page 1, line 5, leave out ‘31 December 2016’ and insert ‘7 May 2015’.

Amendment 31, page 1, line 5, leave out ‘31 December 2016’ and insert ‘1 July 2017’.

Amendment 29, page 1, line 5, leave out ‘2016’ and insert ‘2014’.

Amendment 30, page 1, line 5, leave out ‘2016’ and insert ‘2015’.

Amendment 32, page 1, line 5, leave out ‘2016’ and insert ‘2017’.

Amendment 33, page 1, line 5, leave out ‘2016’ and insert ‘2018’.

Amendment 12, page 1, line 6, at end insert—

‘(3A) Before appointing the day on which the referendum is to be held under subsection (3) above, the Secretary of State shall consult leaders of the principal faiths represented in the United Kingdom so as to identify days which it would be inappropriate for him to appoint for holding the referendum, and he shall pay due regard to the outcome of those consultations in appointing the day.’.

Amendment 13, page 1, line 6, at end insert—

‘(7) The day on which the referendum is to be held shall not be the same day as—

(a) a general election for the United Kingdom Parliament;

(b) elections to the European Parliament;

(c) a Scottish parliamentary general election;

(d) a Welsh Assembly general election;

(e) a general election for members of the Northern Ireland Assembly;

(f) any local government election;

(g) a mayoral election in London; and

the terms above shall be defined as in section 4 of the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Act 2011.’.

Amendment 70, page 1, line 6, at end insert ‘, subject to subsection (3A) below.

‘(3A) The Secretary of State may not appoint a day on which the referendum is to be held until he has published a detailed analysis of the consequences of the United Kingdom—

(a) remaining, or

(b) not remaining a member of the European Union, including—

(i) the economic and social consequences of withdrawal from the European Union for the people of the United Kingdom,

(ii) the consequences for the United Kingdom’s overseas territories,

(iii) the consequences for prevention of crime and terrorism in the United Kingdom,

(iv) the consequences for climate change and the environment of the United Kingdom, and

(v) the consequences for the effectiveness of the foreign policy of the United Kingdom.’.

Amendment 78, page 1, line 6, at end insert—

‘(3A) The date appointed under subsection 1(3) must not be less than 28 weeks in advance of the proposed polling day.’.

Amendment 9, page 1, line 14, at end add—

‘(7) The referendum shall be held on Thursday.’.

Amendment 10, page 1, line 14, at end add—

‘(7) The referendum shall be held over two days on a Saturday and Sunday.’.

Amendment 11, page 1, line 14, at end add—

‘(7) The referendum shall be held over three days on a Thursday, Friday and Saturday.’.

New schedule 1—‘Speaker’s Committee for the referendum on the United Kingdom’s membership of the European Union—

( ) There is to be a committee known as the Speaker’s Committee for the Referendum on the United Kingdom’s membership of the European Union (“the Committee”) to consider the day to be appointed for the referendum.

( ) The Speaker’s Committee shall consist of the Speaker of the House of Commons, who shall be the chair of the Committee, and the following other members, namely—

(a) the Member of the House of Commons who is for the time being the Chair of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee of the House of Commons;

(b) the Lord President of the Council;

(c) a Member of the House of Commons who is a Minister of the Crown with responsibilities in relation to foreign affairs; and

(d) five Members of the House of Commons who are not Ministers of the Crown.

( ) The member of the Committee specified in subsection (2)(c) shall be appointed to membership of the Committee by the Prime Minister.

( ) The members of the Committee specified in subsection (2)(d) shall be appointed to membership of the Committee by the Speaker of the House of Commons.

( ) The Speaker’s Committee shall make a report to the House of Commons on the exercise by the Committee of their functions.’.

New schedule 2—“Organisations to be consulted before a referendum on the United Kingdom’s membership of the European Union—

(a) the Confederation for British Industry,

(b) the National Farmers Union,

(c) the Trades Union Congress,

(d) the National Association of Citizens Advice Bureaux,

(e) the Association of Chief Police Officers,

(f) Universities UK,

(g) the National Council of Voluntary Organisations,

(h) Friends of the Earth,

(i) the Local Government Association, and

(j) other organisations as the Secretary of State shall see fit.’.

[Mr Bain]

It is a pleasure to speak in the Chamber for the first time under your chairmanship, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is a delight.

I shall speak to amendments 68 and 70, in my name, as well as new schedule 2, which is also in the name of my right hon. Friend the Member for Neath (Mr Hain). The reason why this group of amendments is so important is that the discussions between the Bill’s promoter, the hon. Member for Stockton South (James Wharton), and the Government have been in many ways one-sided. It has been an internal discussion within the Conservative party. It is time that that discussion is broadened out to include all the interest groups and all the people of this country who would be affected by the Bill and who would be affected—in my view, very badly indeed—if Britain chose to withdraw from the European Union.

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[Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am reading the amendment very carefully. It talks about the need to consult before the referendum

“on the merits or otherwise of the United Kingdom remaining a member of the European Union”,

but is that a pretext for us now to have a debate about the merits or otherwise of remaining in the European Union, or should we stick to the amendment?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

The hon. Gentleman is correct to suggest that it is not a pretext. I am listening very carefully to the hon. Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain), and if he strays into the area that the hon. Gentleman has suggested he might, then he will not be allowed to stray further.

[Mr Bain]

I give way to my hon. Friend.

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[Mr Jenkin]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is quite clear that the hon. Gentleman is using this debate as a vehicle to make the CBI’s case in favour of membership of the European Union. That is not the subject of the amendment, which he should be sticking to.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his point. I am certain that the hon. Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain) will not use the next few minutes to do what the hon. Gentleman has suggested he might. I am sure that he will stick very carefully to discussing those who will be consulted within the strict terms of his amendment and no further.

[Mr Bain]

Absolutely, Madam Deputy Speaker.

Through these amendments, I seek to give Parliament and, indeed, many interest groups in wider society the degree of consultation that was given in the 1975 referendum.

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[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

Is not the key point that the Conservative party cannot even carry the Government, of whom it is a member, to produce a White Paper, because the Liberal Democrats, who are also in the Government, would not support it? The Conservative party is so weak and divided that it cannot even produce its own White Paper.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

Order. I am sure that the hon. Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain) will recognise that the intervention, however much merit it might have, is not pertinent to the matter being debated.

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[Mike Gapes]

Is not the reason for this strange arrangement that there could be no consultation because it would never have been agreed to in Government? We therefore have the bizarre process of debating a private Member’s Bill that is backed by Ministers.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

Order. Once again, I am sure that the hon. Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain) will recognise that that intervention was not in order because it did not relate to the matter in hand.

[Mr Bain]

Thank you for that ruling, Madam Deputy Speaker.

There is an even stronger parallel to be drawn between the amendment and the Scottish referendum. The Government claimed rightly in January 2012 that setting an arbitrary date four years in the future for a referendum on a plan for Scotland to separate from the United Kingdom would create unnecessary uncertainty for inward investment and business. How can the Government believe that it is appropriate to have four years of uncertainty before a referendum on the United Kingdom’s membership of the European Union? Surely the same argument applies, particularly given that the EU referendum, unlike its Scottish counterpart, would be conducted on the basis of a pre-negotiated treaty to alter the conditions of membership, which the Prime Minister may not even be able to achieve.

Let us not forget that the Prime Minister hopes to pull off the coup of negotiating such a treaty at a time when the UK will hold the presidency of the EU and ought to be prioritising the completion of the single market and boosting growth, jobs and trade; when there will just have been a French presidential election; and in the run-up to the next German federal elections. The window for getting the type of treaty that the Prime Minister believes is possible will be very small.

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[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

I thank the hon. Lady for her point. At the moment, the hon. Gentleman is giving a general introduction to his remarks, but he will undoubtedly come very quickly to the crux of his argument, and I am quite certain that he will then stick precisely to the amendments.

[Mr Sheerman]

Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I have a great deal of time for the honesty of the stand that the hon. Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie) takes on the matter, but I object to his attributing to me and the Opposition attitudes that are not true. We are not against a referendum—

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. The hon. Gentleman knows that that is not a point of order. If he wishes to engage in debate with the hon. Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie), I am sure he can seek to intervene in due course.

[Adam Afriyie]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for your wise words. I am speaking specifically about a 2014 referendum, which is proposed in amendment 22 and my amendment 3.

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[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

The hon. Gentleman knows that that is not a point of order and that nobody is talking out anything in this Chamber—there is no such action. The only words that will be allowed in the Chamber today are those entirely in order with proceedings.

[Adam Afriyie]

Again, I thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for your wise words on all matters under debate.

We as politicians have kicked the can down the road for generation after generation, and we are in danger of doing so again today. I ask a simple question: if not in this Parliament, when else can we be sure to secure a referendum? My amendment and amendment 22 offer a way forward. I say in all humility and kindness to my colleagues that, by chasing the EU referendum dream for 2017, we risk losing one in 2014 and throwing away the 2015 election. I urge every hon. Member to listen to their constituents and to try, through one of the amendments, to grant the British people a referendum in 2014.

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[Sir Edward Leigh]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Is this a debate about the merits of remaining part of the European Union, or not?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

I have already explained this morning that I am listening carefully to all Members to ensure that they adhere strictly to the terms of the amendments they are proposing. The right hon. Member is in order in the remarks he is making.

[Mr Hain]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

I believe that a consultation would also reveal that the Government contributed £7 billion to the EU in 2012, about 1% of total public expenditure and equivalent to 0.4% of GDP—I am sure that the CBI would have something to say about this, because its report seems to suggest the same thing. Although leaving the EU and rejoining the single market would cost Britain less, it would not be much less. We would need to negotiate a relationship like that enjoyed by Norway, the largest of the nations in the European economic area, which we would presumably join.

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[Mr Hain]

I will make progress. I have let the hon. Gentleman in a number of times.

The point that I was about to make about consultation is that inward investors, particularly Japanese companies such as Nissan, come into the European Union bringing with them tens of thousands of jobs—direct jobs and indirect jobs—and a great deal of wealth. They come here because they will be part of the single market of the European Union. Again, under new schedule 2 we would be able to consult them. We would be able to consult Ford, which has plants at Bridgend and elsewhere in the United Kingdom. Such companies are in the United Kingdom rather than elsewhere in the European Union because we are members of the EU and part of the single market. We would want to consult them, as well as Sony, Toyota—[Interruption.] We would want to consult Airbus, my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) reminds me. That is a really important company, right on the Welsh-English border in the north-east of Wales. It would need to be consulted as well.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

Order. Before the right hon. Gentleman attempts to make further progress, I should suggest to him that although he has been perfectly in order in speaking about consultation, he is in danger of being a little repetitive. It might be as well for him to consider drawing his remarks to a conclusion in the near future.

[Mr Hain]

I was planning to do precisely that, Madam Deputy Speaker. I regret having taken so many interventions, otherwise I would have concluded already.

On the argument about sovereignty, under sub-paragraph (j) of new schedule 2 we would consult organisations such as the Royal United Services Institute in respect of our membership of NATO. We have given up sovereignty to be members of NATO, but we have gained extra power and influence. We have given up sovereignty—yes, of course we have—to be members of the European Union, but we have gained extra economic, political and diplomatic influence. If we consulted Friends of the Earth and Greenpeace about the environmental benefits that we have gained by having a say in the policies of the countries right on our border on the continent of Europe, it would be clear that we are a key force in determining those decisions.

All the evidence points to the fact that systematic consultation with all the different parts of our society, all the groups in our society specified in new schedule 2, would give us a great opportunity to go into the debate and decide, if we are to have a referendum at all, when it should be. That would be the great advantage which the Bill, unamended, denies us. More importantly, it denies an obligation on Government to consult and, having consulted over a lengthy period, an obligation to come back to Parliament, and for Parliament to have a considered debate rather than to be stampeded into a referendum next year. For all the reasons given by the hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash) and others, that would be the wrong choice, in my view.

Without my amendment being accepted, setting an arbitrary date some time in 2017 could conceivably mean that the referendum would be held right in the middle of the United Kingdom presidency. Imagine the nonsense of doing that and leaving us in an entirely invidious position—indeed, a laughing stock if a referendum took place during that six months.

I hope the promoter of the Bill will reconsider accepting the amendments, and I hope that when the Europe Minister contributes to the debate, he will back them. If either of them does not do so, I have to ask what they are frightened of. Are they frightened of the facts and the arguments being revealed, and the British people deciding either that they do not want a referendum at all on the proposed timetable or, if they do want a referendum at some stage in the future, that staying in the European Union is the right thing to do?

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[Mr Sheerman]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. We can wake up to the fact that still we have not heard from the promoter of a private Member’s Bill on a private Member’s day. What is going on in this Chamber?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

The hon. Gentleman must resume his seat.

[Chris Williamson]

rose—