Residential Construction and Housing Supply

Earl of Caithness Excerpts

Wednesday 24th April 2019 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Bourne for introducing the debate, and for the positive way in which he did so. I declare my interests, as in the register; in particular, I have been a land agent, an estate agent and a Minister for Housing. The noble Lord, Lord Best, told us of changes that had happened in the last three or four years. If one looks back to when I and my noble friend Lord Young—also on the Front Bench—were Ministers for Housing, times have changed quite considerably.

However, I have just finished sitting on your Lordships’ Rural Economy Committee. Our report is published on Saturday morning. One chapter is dedicated to housing in rural areas. I hope that the report will be in my noble friend’s red box for the weekend, as indeed I hope it will be in many Ministers’ boxes, because there is no doubt that rural areas have been treated in a grossly unfair way by successive Governments, and that needs to be put right—so my noble friend still has a lot of work to do.

Some of the evidence we received was startling. Chris Carr of the Federation of Master Builders told us that the top five constraints on the availability to deliver new homes were the lack of available and viable land, the planning system, a lack of developer finance, a shortage of skilled workers and the cost of 106 contributions. My noble friend Lord Borwick mentioned the 106 contributions as a cost, but I was surprised that my noble friend the Minister did not mention the lack of skilled workers when he opened the debate. I hope he will tackle that point when he comes to wind up.

Our evidence also showed that there is a much greater challenge related to having a supply of houses of the right types and tenures—including owner-occupied, private rented and affordable housing—in the right locations to support a population of all ages. We received evidence that the cost of rental can be up to 31% of a family’s income in rural areas—far higher than in urban areas. Although the population in rural areas is increasing, we were told that the working-age population in those areas is projected to decline by 75,000 between 2014 and 2038. The key to solving that problem is by ensuring viable, mixed communities in rural areas and building more affordable housing.

All too often now, young people are forced to leave the countryside and go into urban areas because of the cost of housing. This means that there will be more older people in rural areas. I strongly urge the Government to encourage all homes to be built to the Lifetime Homes Standard of accessibility, which serves people of all ages. It is no good having a subsection on that; it needs to be a firm requirement that that should be the construction. That was a recommendation of the Housing and Care for Older People All-Party Parliamentary Group report, in which the noble Lord, Lord Best, was very involved.

However, it is not just about the construction of houses; we often forget the people who live in the houses. I can say from my own experience that after my accident two or three years ago, I had to spend time in a rehab unit because I could not go home. My home was not fit for me to live in and I was blocking a bed. I think I am not the only person in this House who can say, “I am still blocking a bed”. My wife and I live in a house that is too big for us and we cannot find the right house to downsize into. A further problem is that of stamp duty. I suggest to my noble friend the Minister that he raises the matter of stamp duty with the Chancellor, because it would be one way to free up the market. I also suggest that any pensioner who moves into a new property in which they are going to live is excluded from stamp duty.

Planning is a hugely important issue and causes developers a lot of problems. It was originally designed to balance the many competing interests associated with land, but our planning system is broken. The Raynsford review has just been published. When will the Government reply to that? One of the recommendations of the review is to have a strong emphasis on sustainable development, with the important caveat that it will also focus on the health, safety and well-being of individuals and communities. I join others in asking my noble friend what he means by sustainable housing.

I want to ask my noble friend about the National Infrastructure Commission. Whether its projects are good or bad, they are not related to the current planning system, and this will pose huge problems. How is that going to tie in with local plans and neighbourhood plans, if there is a body with a different system imposing different rules from those of the Government?

I turn for the last time to sustainability. As my noble friend Lord Patten said, the sustainability of housing does not mean the sustainability of land. According to figures for the last four financial years, between 2013 and 2017 we lost 38,706 hectares of agricultural land. In addition, we lost 2,591 hectares of gardens—equivalent to 10 square miles. That is the size of Exeter and, for my noble friend’s benefit, it is about eight times the size of Aberystwyth. My noble friend promised me that he and the Government would challenge the Mayor of London on his proposal to take more garden land for housing. Can he tell me what he has done?

Neighbourhood Planning Bill

Earl of Caithness Excerpts

Report: 1st sitting: House of Lords
Thursday 23rd February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, I should declare at the start of Report that I am a vice-president of the Local Government Association. I pay tribute to the tenacity of the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, and for her work on a range of amendments, but this one in particular because it is terribly important. It is about giving confidence to those engaged in neighbourhood planning that what they achieve will not be turned over by the actions of some other authority. We also know that where we have neighbourhood plans 10% more housing gets built, so having confidence in the system seems to me to matter a very great deal. It is just very important that neighbourhood planning groups understand that their neighbourhood plan can be defended from predatory actions by the local planning authority, the Secretary of State or the Planning Inspectorate.

A number of noble Lords know examples of where an adopted neighbourhood plan is under attack from the local planning authority. Therefore, making sure that we have the statutory position absolutely clear matters a great deal, and for that reason I am fully behind this amendment. I very much hope that the words of the Minister will assist us. There is probably a further conversation to have. I think the fact that the Government have withdrawn the Henry VIII clause, Clause 40, is material here. Although the Henry VIII powers in relation to compulsory purchase will stay, they will not apply any further to the planning parts of the Bill and that is therefore certainly a move in the right direction.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I apologise to the House for not having taken part in the Bill so far: every time I wanted to take part I have been in the committee upstairs, and when one has such a clash it is quite right that one should not come in, but today is a different story. First, I congratulate my noble friend Lady Cumberlege on what she has done. She has taken up a point and run with it against very formidable odds and I commend her hugely for doing so. She has a very strong point in principle. I also think that it was very important that my noble friend Lord Bourne got up at the beginning of this debate and said what he did.

Before I go any further I declare an interest as a member of RICS, although I have not practised for many years. I was delighted when my noble friend said that RICS is flexible about this and about amending the instructions it gives. I can only add to what the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, said: neighbourhood plans are terribly important because they involve the neighbourhood. If people give their time freely and voluntarily to take part in putting these things together and they get kicked in the teeth, we will not get them to come forward a second time. It is hugely important for the Government’s policy, which I totally support, that the right support and instructions are given all the way down to the examiners and local authorities. This is not just about housing; in Hammersmith, there is a draft neighbourhood plan and a planning application which would drive a coach and horses straight through it.

These issues will affect the local community and if, having put all that work in, the community is seen to be ignored then the Government’s policy will fail. I hope that my noble friend Lady Cumberlege does not press this amendment because it is a very welcome sign that my noble friend the Minister said he is still considering it. I hope that the House will support the principle of the amendment but also support what my noble friend on the Front Bench is doing in giving this matter further thought.

[Lord Porter of Spalding (Con)]

My Lords, I speak in support of the spirit of what my noble friend Lady Cumberlege is trying to achieve. I have previously declared my interests in debate on the Bill, in being chairman of the Local Government Association and the leader of South Holland District Council. I said at Second Reading that I am not a fan of neighbourhood plans and nothing that I heard then or since would convince me that they are a good thing per se. But if we are to use a neighbourhood planning system, I certainly support the idea that when such a plan has been tested by the public whom it affects and by the local planning authority, and has been found to be in compliance with the NPPF, only in very extreme cases should it be overturned.

None of the proposals going forward, such as about training RICS inspectors to make sure they know what they are talking about, will suit what we need from this. We need an assurance from the Government that if the community goes through the pain of preparing a plan, that plan will be respected once it has been tested unless there is a major infrastructure need at a national level that would trump it. Revisiting how it is built will not give people any more confidence in a plan being respected once it has been done. The respect for the fact that it has been tested in public should be paramount. The Government really should decide whether or not they like neighbourhood planning and, if they do, they should find a form of words somewhere to insist that neighbourhood planning will be respected. I hope that my noble friend Lady Cumberlege does not press this to a Division because I would obviously go through the Lobby with the Government, on the basis that I do not think neighbourhood plans are the right thing to do anyway.

Scotland Bill

Earl of Caithness Excerpts

Wednesday 28th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Maclennan of Rogart]

My Lords, I support the objective of my noble friend Lord Forsyth. I believe that the Scottish people need to be presented with much more detailed information about the consequences of separation than are likely to be provided by the popular press or the media. The reality is that the last time we had a referendum on constitutional reform, on AV, the media noticed the issue for no more than two weeks before the vote took place. Although the issue of voting systems is nothing like as significant as that with which we are now faced, which could lead to the break-up of Britain, I do not have any expectation that the depth of analysis that would be available to most people in the popular media would be anything like sufficient to assist the formation of a carefully cast vote. Although it may not be appropriate to put this directly into the Bill, it seems to me that the Government are best placed to analyse the consequences for government departments. Although there is an issue of whether that is the most independent way, the factual description of what would flow can be done. I would go further and say that there is a need for independence not only for a factual explanation of what is feasibly anticipated for Scotland, but the required consideration of alternatives for the whole of the United Kingdom.

That process would require considerable, objective debate, as the noble Lord, Lord Gordon, said. I am not certain that the alternative would best be discussed or presented by the Government at this stage. To have that debate, properly informed, is imperative if we are not going to blunder into a constitutional catastrophe, not just for Scotland but for the whole of the United Kingdom.

[The Earl of Caithness]

I support what my noble friend Lord Forsyth has said about information. In the United Kingdom we are woefully short on information as to the consequences of this potentially tragic leap that we are encouraged to take. I was disappointed in Committee by the lack of response from my noble and learned friend on these matters. I raised some of them, such as the UK’s membership of Europe and what Scotland’s position would be, and what the position of our seat as a permanent representative on the Security Council of the United Nations would be. What currency will Scotland use? It cannot be allowed to use a single currency with the rest of the United Kingdom because single currencies without a single Government do not work. Will Scotland accede to or be refined as an existing member of the EU? The EU is clear on that: if you are a new member, you have to have the euro. Does that mean that, in Scotland, they will have to have the euro? Without this sort of information, we are not going to be able to have a sensible debate on this.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord McCluskey, raised the legal point. In Committee, I reminded Members of the number of treaties and obligations that had to be renegotiated with the break-up of Czechoslovakia. That ran into tens of thousands. A huge number of commitments will have to be renegotiated or adjusted. We need to know what they are going to be.

I agree with my noble friend Lord Sanderson of Bowden on his scepticism over the Section 30 order. We cannot alter this Bill. It has been agreed behind closed doors and is subject to a legislative consent Motion. My noble and learned friend Lord Wallace of Tankerness was very clear about this when I raised it on the first day of Report, when I asked what happens if we have an amendment at Third Reading. He said, “Well, Holyrood will have something to say about that”. So we will not be able to alter the Bill, and we will not be able to alter a Section 30 notice. Again, it will be agreed behind closed doors and presented as a fait accompli.

In addition to giving support to my noble friend Lord Forsyth, I ask my noble and learned friend Lord Wallace two questions. In the Section 30 notice, does he envisage that the referendum would have to take place by a set date? If the Section 30 notice allows for a referendum but there is no fixed date by which it must be held, we will go into limbo. If it is not held by that fixed date, the United Kingdom Government will have to legislate for a referendum to settle this matter.

Secondly, my noble and learned friend likened the United Kingdom to a club. If a member wants to leave, they should be allowed to leave the club without any of the others having any say in the matter. My amendment on the rest of the UK having a say in what Scotland decided was not acceptable to him. Will he therefore confirm that, in the Section 30 notice, he will allow parts of Scotland also to leave the proposed club of an independent Scotland? It comes back to my point about Orkney and Shetland, but it might be the Western Isles or somewhere else. There cannot be one rule for the United Kingdom and another for those in Scotland.

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[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

The very fact that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State posed these questions shows that the UK Government are seized of what the key questions are, as raised by your Lordships in debate. I will certainly ensure that colleagues right across the Government are aware of the kind of issues that have been raised in this debate. There is no doubt that the United Kingdom Government want to keep the United Kingdom together. We believe that this is the best option not only for Scotland but for the United Kingdom. It goes without saying that we want to ensure that there is a debate that is as informed as possible and that the case for Scotland continuing to be a part of the United Kingdom is made as forcefully as possible. Points raised by your Lordships today will certainly inform the arguments that are put forward in the referendum debate. I share the view of my noble friend that the sooner we get on with the substance of the debate and move on from process the better it will be.

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, can my noble and learned friend inform the House whether he has had an invitation from the Scottish Government to give evidence to the committee that they have set up to look at the economic consequences of independence?

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I have not.

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[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I support my noble friend in his amendment, which is very reasonable and quite restrained. I suspect that my noble and learned friend will say that the provision simply provides a power for the Scottish Parliament and that it is a matter for the Scottish Parliament, but that is a less than responsible position to take. We all remember the genesis of this proposal and its inclusion in the Scotland Bill; it arose because of some very tragic events in Scotland. But as is often the case, the conclusion is that something must be done—and this is something being done without the consequences being thought through, which can add enormously to the bureaucracy and difficulties.

My noble friend Lord Shrewsbury has given us a glimpse of the enormous difficulties that could be created for the police in taking them away from their vital duties in pursuit of serious crime. Air guns are not subject to numbering in the way that shotguns and other firearms are, apart from those that are very powerful. One Member of this House, who had an association with the special services, briefed me that they could actually be extremely powerful weapons. But for the vast majority of people using air guns as part of their leisure activity, they are not numbered, and there are very real difficulties with that. It seems a little perverse to argue—if my noble and learned friend is to make this argument—that we are just giving the Scottish Parliament a power and do not need to worry too much about how it is implemented, because that is for the Scottish Parliament, when that will have enormous implications for people in the rest of the United Kingdom and, indeed, the rest of the European Union. I very much hope that my noble and learned friend will at least take this away and think about the very important arguments that have been made, with a view to perhaps coming forward with some practical proposals at a later stage.

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, if I might follow my noble friend Lord Forsyth, he said that the reply that our noble and learned friend was going to give was that all of this would just provide a power for the Scottish Parliament. That is true, but it has cost implications for the police forces in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. If my noble and learned friend cannot accept this amendment, would it not therefore be in order for the other police forces that are put to extra cost by the Scottish police, in seeking information about firearms, to charge for the cost of their time?

Scotland Bill

Earl of Caithness Excerpts

Monday 26th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

This almost proves my point. I am sure that these points will be noted and I will indeed draw them to the attention of colleagues.

With regard to the further point made by the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, about the number of days between Committee and Report, it was agreed between the usual channels, and as a result of a delay for further sessions in Committee to take place after the end of the consultation on the referendum, there was a need to reduce. As I indicated, that was agreed. In response to his further point, all parties—or at least all non-Scottish National parties that fought elections in Scotland: the Labour Party, the Conservative Party and the Liberal Democrats—had these proposals in their manifestos and I do not think it is fair to say that they had not been aired at all prior to the general election, nor indeed since.

I welcome the general support that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Boyd of Duncansby, has given to these moves, in the spirit of seeking agreement. He asked about insolvency. Specifically, there will be engagement with the Scottish Government to ensure that the modernisation programme contained in the reforms of 2009-10 is delivered in Scotland for the benefit of those affected by corporate insolvencies.

More generally, the Accountant in Bankruptcy is an executive agency of the Scottish Government that holds policy responsibility for devolved insolvency matters in Scotland, and the Insolvency Service is aware of the need to stay in close contact with counterparts in the Accountant in Bankruptcy’s office, as indeed already happens, to help ensure that as far as possible developments in insolvency law in devolved areas do not create unnecessary difficulties for users of the legislation. So there are the specific provisions of the 2009-10 changes, which we have had assurances will be implemented, and there is a means by which we can maintain contact and dialogue in the longer term.

With regard to health professionals, like the noble and learned Lord, I was a member of the Calman commission and certainly took this matter seriously. He will appreciate that we have agreed to seek removal of this clause on the receipt of assurances that the Scottish Government will work with us to ensure consistency in the regulation of health professionals. I sometimes wonder if we had had some representations from the Scottish Government when we sat on the Calman commission whether we might have been able to reflect those in the report, but that was not the case.

The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, asked about the procedure from here on in. In his letter to my right honourable friend the Secretary of State, the Scottish Cabinet Secretary for Parliamentary Business and Government Strategy, Mr Bruce Crawford, having gone through the terms of the agreement, indicated:

“I can therefore confirm that the Scottish Government is now prepared to recommend to the Scottish Parliament that it consents to the Bill, amended in line with your proposals, and supported by the undertakings in your letter”.

Of course, it will be a matter for the Scottish Parliament. It is my understanding that the Scotland Bill Committee of that Parliament will meet to discuss the amendments on Wednesday. We expect that the legislative consent Motion will be debated after the Easter Recess but before Third Reading in your Lordships’ House. Given the engagement that there has been, I very much look forward to the Scottish Parliament approving the Motion to support the Bill. I hope that answers the noble Lord’s inquiry.

[The Earl of Caithness]

Before my noble friend sits down, could he comment on his final point? If the legislative consent Motion is agreed by the Scottish Parliament before Third Reading and we pass an amendment at Third Reading, what is the situation then?

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

I suspect that the Scottish Parliament may have something to say about it if it is something that it does not agree with.

Scotland Bill

Earl of Caithness Excerpts

Wednesday 21st March 2012 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Caithness]

I wonder whether my noble and learned friend can help me with the parliamentary procedure. We are discussing the referendums this afternoon. When are they going to be dealt with on Report? As my noble friend Lord Forsyth has just said, they were delayed at this stage. Is it likely that we will be discussing them on Monday? If so, those of us who have to travel to the far north of Scotland tomorrow will have precious little time to table amendments. It will give us at least a day or two longer to consider matters and read the Official Report if they are to be dealt with on Wednesday. It is crucial for us in how we conduct our business to know whether the referendum issue will be taken on Report on Monday or Wednesday.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I understand the noble Lord’s frustration about the whole process and the way it has been dealt with. The noble Earl, Lord Caithness, makes a very good point, which others made earlier, about the time between Committee and Report. The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, also made that point effectively.

I think we should absolve the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, of blame in relation to this. He has been faced with great difficulties from a number of sources. I was going to include the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth as one of the people who created some difficulty for him, but I will just put that to one side for a minute. The noble Lord has had to labour with a Cabinet which has only recently begun to realise some of the implications of Scottish independence and what it might mean—to our defence policy and to a range of other things—if it were to go ahead. It has taken some time for it to realise the enormity of the possibility of Scotland seceding from the rest of the United Kingdom, and that is something that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, has had to deal with. He has also had to deal with a very difficult negotiating body in the Scottish Executive, and its leader in particular. Driving a bargain with it is not easy.

We should consider that earlier this week—and I hope I am not giving any secrets away—we may not have had even this letter and the Statement today if it had not been for the intervention of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness. Admittedly, he was under pressure from the Opposition—both the Front and Back Benches—and no doubt from the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, as well, but it is to his credit that he got us the Statement. Otherwise we would really have been dealing with it in the dark.

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[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, I support what has been said so far. The present situation, as is increasingly becoming clear, is untenable. It goes against the principle that I have been arguing all the way along. I am in agreement with the noble Lords, Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Steel of Aikwood. I believe that the only sensible way for the Scottish MSPs to be accountable is for them to be able to raise revenue as well as spend it. We are prohibiting that accountability and to me that is a very serious mistake which needs to be corrected at a later stage of the Bill. I think it is untenable for the future and unless we nip this in the bud now, it will be of increasing concern and will lead to a distortion of some of the benefits of devolution. It will become a real Achilles’ heel for people. Every time there is a change of allowances in one country that is different from another, we will have these consequences. Now that we know exactly what will happen, we have a real problem ahead of us.

[Lord Lyell]

Perhaps I may put a gloss on what my noble friend has said about these taxes. He refers to accountability. I make the point that in Clause 30 of the Bill, let alone anywhere else, there is no accountability to English, non-Scottish voters, who will be classified by the Bill as Scottish taxpayers. Where is the accountability? It is not there.

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There is an important distinction between a convention and a Section 30 order. A number of different orders can be promulgated under the Scotland Act 1998. Indeed, there is a schedule with headings (a) to (j)—possibly more—that state the procedures and processes in respect of each order. I know that noble Lords have had debates in the Moses Room on Section 104 orders, which very often relate to when the Scottish Parliament is unable to give full expression to its legislative proposals because they may well have non-controversial implications for matters or bodies that are reserved. After working with the United Kingdom Government, it is possible to bring forward an order that can then give full effect to such proposals. We recently considered such an order with regard to social housing. There are a number of examples. These are matters of law, and a Section 30 order is used to transfer or make changes to Schedule 4 to the Scotland Act. Schedule 5 sets out the specific issues that are reserved under that Act. A Section 30 order requires the consent of the House of Commons, the House of Lords and the Scottish Parliament. It is not a convention. If the Scottish Parliament withholds its consent, a Section 30 order cannot pass. That is why it has legal effect in a way that the Sewel convention does not.

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, on that point, will the Minister confirm that my noble friend the Duke of Montrose was right to say that we cannot amend a Section 30 order here and that we have to either reject or accept it?

[Lord Wallace Tankerness]

It is generally the case for all orders that they cannot be amended. However, in earlier exchanges, the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, asked whether there might even be a draft order. Actually, it was the noble Lord, Lord Sewel. My apologies —it seemed to happen so recently. He raised the possibility of a draft Section 30 order. I indicated then that if it related to the important issue of the referendum, we could take the opportunity of the debates that we are, I hope, about to have to get the reflections of your Lordships on these matters.

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[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

Yes, I just wondered who dictated it. I am sure it is the noble Lord’s own work; it is just that it is such a change of position in such a short time. We have discussed this ad nauseam and it is perfectly clear that there is agreement in this House that there should be one question and that the referendum should be conducted by the Electoral Commission and no one else.

I like the question that is in the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, but I am perfectly content for that question to be determined by the Electoral Commission. That is where we may end up. My preference would be for it to be decided by the Government, but I can see how that would create difficulties. The important point is that this whole process needs to be regulated by the Electoral Commission and needs to be conducted under the rules that have been established in statute for the conduct of referenda. I am very happy not to move my amendment and not to spend any more time talking about referenda in the context of this Bill, because this Bill is clearly not going to be used as the vehicle.

My noble and learned friend has been brilliant in his negotiations with Mr Alex Salmond, but I am not absolutely persuaded that Mr Alex Salmond is going to agree to a Section 30 procedure that meets all the criteria. The point that was made by the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, really needs to be taken into account. We do not want any shilly-shallying or giving way on these important points of substance. This is very important.

Mr Salmond does not want to have a referendum on independence because he knows that he will lose, and I am anxious that my noble and learned friend may be optimistic about reaching agreement. However, given his track record, he may well be able to reach agreement: in which case, fine. If he is not able to reach agreement, we will have to have a referendum Bill in the next Session of Parliament that delivers these things. I regret that, because unless there is agreement between the Front Benches to take this through the House reasonably speedily we will have another six or seven months of arguing about process, about the question and about who should run it, whereas I want the debate to be about what happens to Scotland’s young people, the jobless, our businesses, our defence, people’s pensions, and our country as a United Kingdom.

If we are going to go down this track, I very much hope that the negotiations will not be particularly extended. I believe in competition but, honestly, competition between consultation papers is a bit rich. The Scottish Government’s consultation finishes in May. If this is the route that we are going to go down, let us hope that, at a reasonably early stage in the new Session of Parliament, either we will have reached agreement with the Scottish Government on using Section 30 or the Government will have brought forward a Bill that is taken through both Houses speedily and delivers the opportunity for a decision to be made. I would have preferred it if we had used this Bill to achieve that because we could have got on with it, but given the Government’s Statement and the fact that we have to deal with all amendments by next Wednesday, it is perfectly apparent that that is not going to happen. I am content not to press my amendment.

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, I have put my name to the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, and my noble friend Lord Forsyth. As my noble friend Lord Forsyth has just said, these amendments went down last year, long before the UK Government sent out their consultation paper, let alone the Scottish Government bothering to send out theirs.

I am not in the least bit fearful of a referendum in Scotland but I am worried about the consequences. The break-up of the United Kingdom at the behest of a minority, which might prejudice the majority, is something of great concern. As the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, has said, it has huge implications for the rest of the United Kingdom. I am told that when Czechoslovakia divided in 1992, some 30 treaties and 12,000 legal agreements were required. There is going to be a huge amount of work resulting from a decision to have an independent Scotland, if that is the one that is taken.

I hear what noble Lords have been saying about this being a matter for Scotland, and indeed it is, but it is such a big matter that the referendum in Scotland should then be followed by a referendum in the UK. There are huge implications for the rest of the UK; for example, in Brussels, where our ability to get a blocking minority at the Council of Ministers will be altered because the number of votes that we have will be reduced. I spoke about this in an earlier debate. It might very well threaten our permanent seat at the United Nations.

There are a lot of reasons why it is so important that the United Kingdom is kept together, which, if it is broken by a minority, will have huge implications. That is why I have put forward my Amendment 89, which says that the referendum in Scotland should be advisory and could be implemented only if it was agreed in the rest of the United Kingdom. We are sleepwalking into a whole lot of issues that have not been discussed, the implications of which nobody fully understands, and which the vast majority of the United Kingdom will not have a say on.

My Amendment 90 is an amendment to Amendment 88 and says that if the vote in a referendum held in Scotland is for a separate Scotland—I do not say “independent Scotland” because Scotland is about as independent a country as you can get—but that if the people of Orkney and Shetland vote to remain in the United Kingdom, they should be allowed to do so.

The obvious argument in favour of that is the argument that has been expounded about Scotland, which I have just spoken about. Here we have a minority of people in the United Kingdom saying “We want to become separate” or “We could want to become separate”. The rest of the United Kingdom has to accept that, as the noble Lord, Lord Reid, thinks is right. I am saying that if Orkney and Shetland decide that they want to stay in the United Kingdom—although that is not the only alternative for them—their wish should be granted.

When this amendment was put down, it raised a lot of concern from the usual rent-a-quote SNP MSPs who jumped up and down and said, “This is Westminster dictating to us in the far north”. No it is not; it is merely giving a chance for democracy. There is a fear in the far north of the centralisation that has taken place in Edinburgh.

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[Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan]

Does the noble Earl anticipate there being a polling station on Rockall and the like? We are dealing with matters of rather greater significance than these flights of geographical fancy.

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, I do not anticipate a police station—

[Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan]

A polling station.

[The Earl of Caithness]

In fact, I do not anticipate people living there. But what is important are the oil exploration rights around Rockall, which have huge implications. What I want to ask my noble and learned friend is what takes preference. Is it Her Majesty’s instructions to raise a union flag and it is taken for the union, or is it an Act of Parliament which gives administrative rights so that the island of Rockall is part of Scotland? That ought to be decided. I would say to the noble Lord, Lord O’Neill, that these are the sorts of issues that we need to be clear about when it comes to the referendum. If oil is found within the waters of Rockall, let us have a clear mandate as to who owns it and who is going to have responsibility for those areas, and indeed defend them against attack, perhaps by terrorists, if the oil is developed.

My last amendment in this group is to Amendment 94C, another amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes of Cumnock. It concerns the second question about the fiscal autonomy of Scotland, for which I know he did not get much support. I want to ask my noble and learned friend what the situation would be should Scotland vote to become a separate country from the United Kingdom. My amendment provides that Scotland should no longer be allowed to use the British pound sterling. I do not see how Scotland could use the same currency as England if it did not have a common Government. That has been the problem with the euro. My noble friend Lord Forsyth has argued strongly that we should not join the euro. Attempts have been made by many politicians, including the present Chief Secretary to the Treasury, to get us to become part of the euro and much more integrated. However, the decision not to become part of the euro has clearly been vindicated. In the event of Scotland becoming a separate country and not having the same Government, it would be quite detrimental both to the remainder of the United Kingdom and to Scotland to have the same currency. It has not worked in the past and it will not work in the future. I would like my noble and learned friend to confirm that Scotland would not be allowed to use the British pound sterling.

That would not be something sensational for Scotland to do because in the days of King David I, somewhere between 1140 and 1150, the weights and measures and the currency of Scotland were based by Act of Parliament in Caithness. It was decreed that there should be a common and even weight for the pondus Cathaniae, so it would be quite simple for Scotland to go back to that.

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[Lord Browne of Ladyton]

Clearly it could be done by the Summer Recess, and that would be my preference. It would be contradictory to issue a consultation document and argue for the resolution of this issue as soon as reasonably practicable and then put practical blocks on that being done because we cannot get through the process here. We in this Parliament have all had experience of dealing with things in an emergency. In the context of Northern Ireland, for example, in order to maintain momentum in the peace process or to respond to circumstances, we have taken legislation through each House in one day. So if there is a will there is a way, and there ought to be a will because this is the most important question that the people of Scotland have ever been asked—or at least since 1707—and, as we have heard repeatedly from noble Lords, it has serious implications for other parts of the United Kingdom. People have lots of investment in this. The Government should treat this as a priority and find a way forward. We have stuck to a timetable that is associated with the consultation that the Scottish Government have issued, and to respect them we must observe that timetable. Beyond that, though, we need to move as quickly as possible.

With regard to the noble Earl’s three or four amendments, I think we were all interested in the history lesson that we had about the islands of Orkney and Shetland, the observations about Rockall and indeed the argument about a complementary referendum for the United Kingdom after the Scottish people have had their say, if they determine to leave the United Kingdom. Like other attempts to amend the Bill, the complementary referendum falls down on the next question, which is: if the Scottish people decide to leave and the rest of the United Kingdom wants to keep them, how do you keep them in the United Kingdom? Unless you were going to ask that question, why would you hold the complementary referendum? I listened to my noble friend Lord Reid explaining the necessity for dealing with these issues in series. Many of us who have been in this debate consistently had got to that point a while ago. I read in some of the responses to the consultation attempts to explain this by analogy, but the best analogy that I have heard for this is that if you are a member of a club and you choose to leave, that is a decision for you, but if you are a member of a club and you want to change the rules, that is a decision for all the members of the club. That seems to be common sense. The analogy belongs to Sir Malcolm Rifkind, by the way; maybe he got it from someone else, but he said it to me and I thought, “That’s exactly the position”.

Consulting all the other members of the club about changing the rules, if that is what we choose to do in future, will be a complicated and difficult process because there is a lot to be done if we enact the Bill. First of all, we have to work out the exact implications of what we have already devolved to the Scottish Parliament. We have learnt a lot in this Committee about Clause 28, which is quite substantial devolution. We have to persuade those people who are good at making up phrases to describe what they want and what it means—they had their opportunity with Calman to come forward and explain what all that meant, and precious few of them appeared—and then find some mechanism beyond the separate party mechanisms of finding an inclusive, all-party process of measuring whether all this is in the best interests of Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom. Then perhaps we can decide how we are going to ask for approval from the people of the country for that deal if we come to some recommendation. That, however, is a process for another day; it cannot be done in the context of this Bill.

I shall deal with the noble Earl’s other two amendments about the islands. My suspicion was that what lay behind those amendments was oil, which was perhaps doing a disservice to the noble Earl as I listened to him explaining the history of the islands and his knowledge of the island of Rockall and how it was claimed for the United Kingdom. He was quite candid about the issue towards the end of his remarks. I say to him that if that is the intention of any person in relation the Bill, that is not a game that people on these Benches will play. The challenge that we face is to persuade the people of Scotland to stay in the United Kingdom for good, positive future reasons. If we cannot meet that challenge, I will be no part of telling the voters of Scotland that if they vote for independence the UK will take away their oil. Starting down that line would be utterly counterproductive.

I must caution the noble Earl. Whatever the underlying motivation may be for these amendments—respecting the wishes of the people of the high north with regard to the United Kingdom, or the history of the island of Rockall, which is much more chequered and less specific than it first appeared—now that he has linked this issue to oil, I ask him please not to repeat these arguments in Scotland, as they will damage our ability to keep the union together.

[The Earl of Caithness]

That was not my argument. I was responding to an intervention by the noble Lord, Lord O’Neill. My argument was not about oil. That was not my intention at all, particularly with regard to the Orkney and Shetland amendments. As for Rockall, I just wanted to know what the legal position is.

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[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

My Lords, I think this amendment has been overtaken by events. The Minister has made it clear that the referendum will be administered by the Electoral Commission and, therefore, there is no need for me to labour the point. That is very important. The First Minister of Scotland still has to recognise one thing: as he has a particular objective in mind in holding the referendum, he is not the right person to declare what the question should be. Any member of the public would accept that that proposition is correct. You cannot say, “The people must determine this, but I will tell them how to determine it”. In my Amendment 93 to the noble Lord’s Amendment 91, I have suggested that it should be by agreement and that the Scottish Parliament should be consulted and be party to how the question is drafted.

Equally, I disagree with the noble Lord—although I think a moment ago he almost resiled from certain wording—that we should lay down the question. I missed the earlier debate for which I apologise, but the noble Lord, Lord St John, and I had a longstanding appointment with the Prime Minister of Zimbabwe, Mr Morgan Tsvangirai. If you think we have problems in our coalition, you should hear his. I missed the substantive debate on the referendum earlier.

I think it is also important that the people of Scotland are beginning to get scunnered—if I may use a good Scottish word—by the endless argument from politicians, academics and economists about the process and what might or might not happen if Scotland became independent. This cannot go on for another three years. It is ridiculous.

Therefore the part of the amendment that I support is the suggestion that the time should be now. If not immediately, then certainly as soon as possible, we should get this issue out of the way. As soon as we get clear of the independence referendum, we can start, as the Prime Minister has said, serious discussion about how we can add to the devolution package, and that is very sensible.

We have got the Electoral Commission in the frame, so there is no need to press that. Choosing the question should also be a matter for the Electoral Commission, and I agree with the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, who has made this point before, that rather than having a yes or no and putting some people in a negative position, there should be two propositions from which people choose either to remain in the United Kingdom or to go independent.

If that is done, and done quickly, then we can get this issue out of the way and the Scottish Government should concentrate on what they were elected to do, which is to deal with the issues affecting Scotland at the moment: bad housing, unemployment, and the need for more investment in industry. These are the things people want. They do not want three years of argument about a referendum. They want to see a Government tackling the issues, both in Scotland by the Scottish Government, and in the United Kingdom by the UK Government. The sooner we get back to that realistic level of politics, the better.

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, my Amendment 94E takes what my noble friend Lord Steel said a little bit further, and asks that the Electoral Commission set the question. It is quite clear that nothing the UK Government propose is going to be accepted by the Scottish Government, and nothing that the Scottish Government propose will be accepted by the UK Government.

Why not cut the politicians out? Let us ask the Electoral Commission not only to set the questions but to arrange all the counting, transferring the number of votes into a proper result that is based, exactly the same way the referendums were in 1979 and 1997, on each local authority area, rather than just Scotland. We would know that there would be a clear question—or questions, if we go down the route proposed by the noble Lord, Lord McConnell—but also that each area voted and how they voted, and that it was a fair process.

Taken out of the hands of politicians, it will not only be more acceptable to the people of Scotland, but in view of our earlier discussions, I think it would be more acceptable to the rest of the UK, who would feel that an independent authority is doing this rather than politicians.

[Lord Selsdon]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 96, if I am in order. I feel that because of my voice, I should give a brief introduction. My name is Malcolm McEacharn Mitchell-Thomson, and I carry the burden of being Lord Selsdon, which is actually registered in Scotland. I am also a Scottish Baronet. But on the business of one’s past and the Scottish relationship, I ask: who is a Scot, and where or what is a Scot?

As noble Lords know, 5 million Scots live in Scotland, 400,000 or more live in England, and 40 million around the world. If we are to move towards having a referendum, I for one would like to be able to vote for the first time in my life—because by accident of birth, I have never had a vote—in a referendum. I have reason to believe there are many others in the world who will claim they are Scots who would like to be consulted in one form or another. This is why I tabled my amendment on Burns Night, and it was well received by many of the Burns associations.

It is a very difficult matter. If we do not consult, many people who are not in Scotland will feel that they have been ignored. My amendment draws attention to us. In this House, by accident or by recent legislation, we are deemed to be resident, ordinarily resident and domiciled in the United Kingdom. What happens to us if the referendum goes through and there is devolution? Are we still domiciled in the United Kingdom? Domiciled is an interesting concept. As an ex-banker, I know that there is no way I can be anything other than domiciled in Scotland. The reason is that, as your Lordships know, you take the domicile of your father at birth, which is your domicile of origin. Unless you physically and emotionally make a move to change that domicile to a domicile of choice, your domicile remains your domicile of origin. It passes through the male line if you do not change it. Therefore, there could be more people outside Scotland who have the right to vote than there are in Scotland.

I personally am hooked there—line and sinker. I have not got rid of any property in Scotland. You have to cut off all your links and sell your properties and perhaps resign from your clubs. I have the advantage or disadvantage of having a lair. When you reach the age of 50, you receive from some smart Writer to the Signet a brown envelope containing your lair certificate. I did not know that a lair was a plot. I did not know also that as my family is international—my great grandfather was Provost of Edinburgh and my great-great-grandfather was the first Lord Mayor of Melbourne; my family fled Scotland to earn some money and were the biggest coal people in Canada, so I am spread and twisted across the world—I have two lairs, although there is only one of me. Furthermore, the McEacharn family has a mausoleum in Galloway. When I visited it, I was asked to make a contribution, although the stipend was originally drawn up at the turn of the century. The agreement was that we would effectively allow them to keep the motor mower and gardening equipment in there because there was plenty of room and we no longer had the same number of children as we had had in the past.

My point is simple. However the referendum is constructed, there should be some consultation among the Scottish community around the world to see what their views are. I believe that they are unionist at heart. It is not difficult to identify them because through the Burns society you can identify any Scot in the world, including those who like to pretend that they are Scots. One of the greatest benefits of Scotland is that relationship: the power and influence of Scots throughout the world. It is a Foreign Office that costs them money. It is also a relationship that brings interchanges, and one is pleased at the moment that there are more students coming to Scotland than there were. The dogs have not yet arrived, but more people wish to come there. So Scotland can prosper. It is not a question of coastline or anything like that; it is a question of attitude. Will the Government find some consultation formula that will allow us to consult Scots worldwide?

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[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

From the reaction that the noble Baroness has had to that comment, it is clearly one that resonates across the House. I do not pretend that I have an answer to it, but she asked me to reflect on it and we certainly shall. I am not sure if it is practical but she makes an important point well, and it strikes a chord in the House.

I was going to make the point that I in no way underestimate the importance of the franchise, but it does not disqualify people from participation in the debate or the referendum. When the real debate comes, I sincerely hope that we will get contributions from other parts of the UK that have a view to express about how much they value our United Kingdom. I very much hope that Scots from the diaspora will express their views—maybe some that I do not agree with, but I am sure there will be many that I do—about how valuable over many years they and their families have found Scotland being part of the UK.

We believe that we should try to ensure consistency and transparency, which is why we have indicated our preference for a franchise based on the present one for the Scottish Parliament and local government. We will continue to seek agreement on that basis. With those assurances, I invite the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, I am grateful for what the Minister said in reply to my amendment, which a number of noble Lords supported. I just wonder whether his mind is totally closed on the issue of allowing the Electoral Commission to set the question. A lot of us are still quite concerned about a Section 30 fudge on which we will have no say except a possible debate. A question could be negotiated behind closed doors in order to satisfy the Scottish Government, rather like the agreement over the past few days to which we were not party. We would have the same situation with a Section 30 order, and we would then have a question that we were not totally content with. Perhaps to avoid that situation, the Electoral Commission might be allowed to set the question. I know that the Minister had reservations about that but I hope that his mind is still open to being persuaded at a future time.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

I hear what my noble friend says, but I ask him to reflect him on two points. First, it is my understanding that the Electoral Commission would not necessarily welcome that. Secondly, with regard to the point I was making about the franchise: if one seeks to do something different, what are the rules regarding the relationship between the Electoral Commission and the question under the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000? If you try to do something different for a Scottish independence referendum, you could immediately open yourself up to a charge of trying to rig or manipulate it. The advantages of consistency in this area are important.

I am told that the Electoral Commission has not, and does not wish to, set a question as its role is properly to review the question and publish that review, which is important. I do not countenance any situation where the commission would not be engaged, nor where its view on a question would not be made public.

Scotland Bill

Earl of Caithness Excerpts

Tuesday 28th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

My Lords, where I disagree with my noble friend Lord Forsyth is in our attitude to devolution as a whole. I would sign up for what is called “devo-plus”. I define that as meaning the greatest amount of devolution consistent with common sense. When we come to debate financial issues I will say more about that, in the light of Prime Minister Cameron's recent utterances in Scotland. Given that we are likely to come back to the issue in future legislation, if we take a definition of “consistent with common sense”, I say with great respect to my colleagues who served on the Calman commission that I am not certain that different categories of air guns, different drink-driving limits or different speed limits are consistent with common sense, and we would do better to remove them altogether.

My noble friend referred to those who live on the border. When I was first elected to the Commons, my constituency boundary was the English/Scottish border. My nearest railway station is across the border. When I come to your Lordships' House by train, which I do from time to time, I have to travel across the border. Let us suppose, although it is unlikely, that the Scottish Government decided to keep the drink-driving limit higher than it is in England, and let us suppose that I repaired to that excellent institution, the Cross Keys Inn in Ettrickbridge, before setting out on my journey. I could then find myself within the law for the first part of my journey and then fall foul of the law for the second part. A much more likely scenario would be that I met my noble friend Lord Forsyth on the train going north and we had a meal and a convivial glass of wine. I could then be perfectly legal on leaving the station and suddenly illegal as I neared my home. This is not consistent with common sense. When we come to a future Scotland Bill, I hope that we might drop these issues and deal with more substantial devolution questions that are of greater interest to the Scottish people.

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, as I listened to the debate I wondered whether my noble friends had driven through Europe. The exact problems they explained to the House are those that one gets in Europe. Last week I drove through three countries in about an hour and a half. In each of them there was a different speed limit. This was well signposted at the side of the road and I did not cause immense problems.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

Is there not a proposal for harmonisation of speed limits and other matters in the European Union for precisely the reasons that the amendment ought to be supported? It goes with the European drift, which I thought my noble friend was very keen on.

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, one of the countries was not in the EU.

[Lord Boyd of Duncansby]

My Lords, three amendments in this group—Amendment 47A, 47B and 50A—are in my name and those of my noble friends. I do not intend to speak to, or in due course move, Amendment 47B. Before I get to the meat of the amendments, perhaps I could make a general point about the Bill and the proposals from the Calman commission. The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, said—I hope that I do not misquote him—that this was dreamed up by a group of politicians who got together to try to prevent an SNP victory. Perhaps I was slightly naive at the time, but I did not think that that was my task as a member of the Calman commission. I am looking at two of my fellow commissioners across the Chamber and I do not think that it was in their remit, either.

In relation to road traffic, we received and assessed evidence. I have just had a quick look at it. Much of it was received from the Association of Chief Police Officers in Scotland. It is true that we commented that it was unfortunate that we did not receive evidence from major motoring organisations representing a Great Britain-wide viewpoint. We took that into account when we reached the view that we did in relation to both drink-driving and speed limits.

Scotland Bill

Earl of Caithness Excerpts

Thursday 2nd February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, the noble Viscount makes a wider case about a general review of firearms at the UK level. The question of air weapons goes considerably further than the scope of this Bill, although I am sure the important points that he makes will be noted. This also covers the point made by the noble Lord. My noble friend pointed out that a licensing scheme would impose significant and costly burdens on firearms licensing departments and he expressed concern that shooters might be deterred from visiting Scotland by what might become overly bureaucratic controls. Taking these factors together, he proposes a statutory right for those affected by any changes to have their views heard.

As I have said in the context of the debate of what is and is not devolved, it is not for this Government to gainsay any of the reasons he has adduced in relation to the licensing of air weapons. Indeed, I recognise that sports shooting is a valuable contributor to the Scottish economy and that any change to firearms legislation is rarely straightforward.

That said, the nature of devolution is that a power is devolved and it is then up to the devolved body to determine how it wishes to exercise that power, as always, within the constraints of the law. This amendment, moved by my noble friend, would fetter the Scottish Government’s and Scottish Parliament’s discretion as to how they might go about the task of regulating air weapons. That was not the recommendation from the Calman commission.

However, while this is not a matter for the statute, I would say to my noble friend and to the Committee that one should fully expect the Scottish Government to consult appropriately before it proposes any new legislation on this matter in the same way that it would normally do with other Bills submitted to the Scottish Parliament. Indeed, it is worth reminding the Committee that the standing orders of the Scottish Parliament, at rule 9.3.3, require a policy memorandum to accompany any executive Bill setting out,

“the consultation, if any, which was undertaken on those objectives and the ways of meeting them or on the detail of the Bill and a summary of the outcome of that consultation”.

Certainly the categories of consultation that have been suggested by my noble friend would appear to be eminently sensible. It is also important to point out that over a range of issues there is regular contact between the Scottish Government and the UK Government with regard to proposals that are coming forward for legislation in the Scottish Parliament. The UK Government will, of course, continue to work with the Scottish Government once the power is devolved to ensure that all who own air weapons and use them legitimately are clear on what the legal requirements would be north and south of the border and will indeed flag up to interested bodies that are not in Scotland that there may be some relevance here, not least ACPO, which may wish to make representations.

In addition, each Bill introduced into the Scottish Parliament must, in line with rule 9.3.2 of the standing orders, be accompanied by a financial memorandum which,

“shall set out the best estimates of the administrative, compliance and other costs to which the provisions of the Bill would give rise, best estimates of the timescales over which such costs would be expected to arise, and an indication of the margins of uncertainty in such estimates. The Financial Memorandum must distinguish separately such costs as would fall upon … (a) the Scottish Administration; (b) local authorities; and (c) other bodies, individuals and businesses”.

It certainly seems to me, from what my noble friend said, that, in terms of the financial costs, we can anticipate some quite comprehensive evidence being presented under these headings.

Ultimately, the Scottish Parliament will be the final arbiter but where there are issues to be resolved it would be hoped that the Scottish Government will wish to listen to the arguments. It would appear that already there is engagement with some of the interest groups and stakeholders in this area. My understanding is that they have already set up a consultative group to advise on proposals to introduce a system to license air weapons in Scotland and I assume it will continue to meet if Parliament agrees that this clause should be enacted.

I hope I have indicated that there is a distinction between what is being devolved and the categories of air guns which are not being devolved and that in fact there are adequate procedures in the standing orders of the Scottish Parliament, both for extensive consultation and for the financial burdens to be properly aired and presented to the Parliament. On that basis, I invite the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment.

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, perhaps my noble and learned friend can help me on the use of air weapons. Would it be possible for there to be two sets of regulations north and south of the border? In those regulations, would it be possible to prohibit the use of a weapon from England, say, in Scotland where it does not have to be licensed, whereas in England it has to be licensed? Would it be possible for the Scottish Government, within regulations, to make an order that that weapon could not be brought into Scotland and used?

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I seem to recall going over some details during the Calman commission. It must happen already when shooting parties come from other parts of the European Union. The trouble is that I cannot remember what answer the Calman commission got. I had better not mislead my noble friend and I shall write to him giving him chapter and verse.

Scotland Bill

Earl of Caithness Excerpts

Tuesday 6th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, this Bill was introduced in the other place on 30 November last year, St Andrew’s Day; 21 June is not quite such an auspicious day in Scotland but I guess that until today my noble and learned friend Lord Wallace will have remembered 21 June as the anniversary of the scuttling of the German fleet in Scapa Flow in 1919. From now on, I guess he will remember 21 June for the Scotland Bill.

Ironically, we might all be wasting our time in this debate if there is a referendum. Most of the provisions will not come into force until after the referendum might take place. Therefore, I support the cause that we ought to assert the constitutional duty of this Parliament to determine the timing and composition of the referendum.

This is a groundbreaking Bill, particularly on finance matters. As such, I welcome it. In the early and mid-18th century, the well used phrase in Ireland and the future USA was, “No taxation without representation”. Three hundred years later, the call is for no representation without taxation. The UK has the most centralised tax system of any major economy, with just over 4 per cent of tax revenues being set and collected locally. That is basically council tax. Despite this, the current law gives the Scottish Executive and Parliament decision-making powers on 60 per cent of the spending that is identifiably Scottish. That is unjust and bad for democracy. The Scottish Executive has always been able to spend and ask for more money, without having to justify that to its electorate. That is an incentive to spend more, rather than spend effectively. The Scottish Executive has been rather good at that.

Things will be different for the future Scottish Government. Rather than the paltry 4 per cent of local revenue, they will be responsible for raising approximately 35 per cent of their revenue, with the remaining 65 per cent still coming from the UK block grant. That takes the ability to raise local taxes to a percentage level comparable to that of the USA, but still less than that of Canada. I should like to see that expected 35 per cent be even higher but I appreciate that there are many difficulties. Any transfer of taxation powers must not increase costs of administration to the point where the transfer is uneconomic and detrimental to business. I therefore ask my noble and learned friend Lord Wallace whether he can tell the House what further taxes are now being considered for transfer. What is the justification for the deduction of 10 percentage points of income tax? Why should it not be 15 per cent, which would give more accountability to the electorate in Scotland? Can there be a different basket of taxes that the Government can transfer to Scotland to give the accountability, but without causing some of the concerns that I will come to later?

Moreover, does my noble and learned friend agree that there is still a fundamental flaw to this Bill? The flaw is that it is based on the outdated existing financial settlement. Through the block grant, over the past 24 years Scotland has received approximately its share of North Sea oil revenues. Thus it has been financed as if it was independent but—this is the crucial point—it has not had to cope with the huge fluctuations in the price of oil. The Executive’s spending programme has been cushioned from the marketplace and in times of low oil prices has been subsidised by the rest of the United Kingdom. Is it not time for the whole basis of the block grant to be changed to one of need and linked to the price of oil? That would encourage a future Scottish Government to be much more prudent than the ones that we have had to date and to spend more effectively. It would expose the country and the electorate to the realities of the real world and to the benefits that the union has brought to Scotland.

I listened carefully to the concerns raised by my noble friends Lord Forsyth, Lord Lang and Lord Sanderson. One of the concerns was population. How can one say that Scotland cannot raise 35 per cent of its revenue from its population? If one talked about that to people in Denmark, Finland or even outside the EU in New Zealand, they would be amazed, and the response would be a surprise to my noble friends.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

Will my noble friend give way?

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[The Earl of Caithness]

No. I did not interrupt my noble friend. The time is late and I want to get on. I have almost come to an end.

The present system of funding Scotland is broken. It is doing Scotland no good. The principle that a Government who spend money must be accountable for raising some or all of it is right. We must not flinch from that, but this Bill is surely one that should make it work.