Earl of Caithness
Main Page: Earl of Caithness (Conservative - Excepted Hereditary)Energy Bill
Earl of Caithness Excerpts
Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan
My Lords, my previous remarks might have been interpreted as being antagonistic to small generators but I am not. What we are talking about here is a reform of the market that will encourage investment, but investment can only be encouraged if there is the prospect of stability. We are yet to receive from the Government a clear indication that there will be stability in this area.
I am not certain that praying in aid the German experience is necessarily that relevant seeing as Germany is having to accommodate the withdrawal from nuclear generation on a considerable scale and will be happy to get generating supplements or replacements from any source that it can. To a certain extent, that might be the same for the United Kingdom if coal is to be exited from our energy mix in a significant way. If that is the intention, and I believe that it is, we must have facilities available to mop up, or fill in the gaps, of what remains.
These amendments provide a clear and explicit set of measures. But they are only amendments and were the Minister able today to give us the degree of certainty required, I imagine that they would be withdrawn. However, what Mr Fallon said elsewhere probably was based on the optimism that has existed throughout the activities of the Department of Energy and Climate Change these many months—that every deal is just days away. Yet the days become weeks and the weeks become months. We do not have much more time. Therefore, it is essential that the Minister gives us a far more positive assurance than she was able to give last week. If she can do that, these amendments will melt like snow off a dyke, as we say in Scotland. However, if they do not, they will come back to haunt the Minister, because there will be a clear indication of what could have happened had there been a greater sense of urgency in the Department of Energy and Climate Change than had been anticipated by Michael Fallon before he went eastward.
The Earl of Caithness (Con)
My Lords, there can be no doubt that there is a unanimous view within the Chamber that we want independent operators and more competition. Of course, the difficulty for the Government is getting the balance right. We talked about the trilemma last week: finding the right balance of affordability, supply and decarbonisation of energy that we all want.
However, I disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Cameron of Dillington, when he spoke of Clause 44 being hedged around with “may”s and not “must”s. It always amuses me that when one is in opposition “may” should always be “must”, but the moment that one gets into government, one is advised that “must” should always be “may”. Therefore, I do not think that having “may” in Clause 44 will put off investors or financiers in any way.
My noble friend Lord Deben said that if we get this right, it will be a win-win situation. I think that my noble friend on the Front Bench is aware that it will be a win-win situation, but I do not think that the amendments actually help. They tilt the balance too far. In Amendment 62, the idea is to allow a party to a CFD to be able,
“to borrow money commercially for its business purposes at adequate levels, reasonable cost and over a reasonable period”.
As a businessman, I would love the Government to give me that guarantee for my business. It would be exactly what I wanted, because if I were not happy I could go to judicial review against the Government for not forcing financiers and investment people to give me the terms that I considered right.
That is a point of detail on the amendment, but my general point is that we are all agreed that we want competition, and I think that the Government have just about got it right in the Bill. However, I would like a firmer commitment from my noble friend the Minister that this will actually work in practice.
The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, when we discuss a group of amendments, the majority of which are government ones, one of the difficulties at Report is that we will not have heard the Minister talk to those government amendments. However, I expect that my noble friend will talk to them and I should like to ask her to take a little time to explain why we have the date 31 December 2027 in Amendment 73B.
Carbon capture and storage was one of the areas highlighted in the report of Sub-Committee D, which I referred to last week. I think we were all saddened that so little progress had been made on it. Therefore, I should also like my noble friend to say how she anticipates an increase in the use, and perhaps even the commercialisation, of carbon capture and storage, particularly when Germany has turned its back on it and apparently does not want to take any active part in it.
Turning to Amendment 73 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, I understood that in any case the Government were going to review the EPS on a three-yearly basis. The Bill states that it will be statutorily reviewed every fifth year in accordance with the 2010 Act, but I understood that they were going to do so on a three-yearly basis as well. I wonder whether my noble friend could confirm that.
With regard to Amendment 74, which is obviously the key amendment here, I, like my noble friend Lord Jenkin of Roding, am torn. I have certainly received representations from people saying that this would be a disastrous way to go. The noble Lord, Lord Stern, made a very powerful case, as would be expected, but that is only one side of the argument. There is, of course, the trilemma, which we are all very much aware of: it is not just a question of decarbonisation and the removal of bad pollutants; there is also affordability of supply and continuity of supply. Like my noble friend Lord Jenkin, I have received representations that Amendment 74 would, if passed, jeopardise our security of supply.
I believe, too, that it puts us out of kilter with the rest of Europe. There is only a limited amount that we can do as an individual country. I was grateful that the noble Lord, Lord Stern, said that our voice is still heard; but we live in a nasty, tough, commercial world. If others can import cheap American coal and keep their energy prices lower as a result, and we prohibit ourselves from doing so, we put our businesses at risk. We make it more difficult to get the growth that this country so badly needs; and it is through that growth that we will be able to implement the reduction in carbonisation that we all want.
I am therefore unable to support my noble friend Lord Teverson on this—it takes us too far. It tilts the trilemma too much towards the green agenda and does not take enough account of the other important issues.
Lord Judd
My Lords, after the slight wobble with my Front Bench a moment ago, I am very glad to find myself 300% on board with them. I think that the amendments are absolutely right; I hope that they press them hard and that the Minister will find the opportunity to respond positively.
I always get a bit worried about what is happening with climate change in the sense that I am never quite sure that the principles with which I grew up still apply, but if the prevailing wind in Britain is still south-westerly, I live 12 miles north-east of Sellafield so I obviously take these arguments very seriously indeed. I am in favour of the next generation of nuclear energy: there is no argument about that, and obviously we in Cumbria will play our part in one way or another. That is given, but this is highly dangerous, lethal engineering of which we are speaking and it seems to me that we cannot have anything but the highest standards. I was very glad to find myself sympathising with a great deal of what the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, was saying, but I could not quite buy his total argument that very, very, very safe was perhaps too much. I think that the developments have to be as safe as they can be.
As we go into this new generation of construction we have heard quite explicitly from the Government—it has been repeated tonight—that we have not got the necessary expertise. This is a very hazardous development. I think that we need some very specific, concrete plans from the Government for bringing the preparation of our own engineering capacity up to date and I urge my own colleagues in opposition to take this seriously too. I do not like the prospect of our being dependent upon foreign expertise in the area of safety: I do not think that it is in any way an ideal situation.
The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, made the point about, “What if?”. I do not think that one can ask too many such questions when we are going into this very important new development. The basic issue is that we have an engineering deficit in terms of our own capabilities and we are putting ourselves into the hands of foreign engineers. Everyone will know that I am an internationalist second to none, but it seems to me that we need to be very clear about how we are going to generate the expertise in this country and very fast indeed.
The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I am slightly wary of the amendment including the environment in the duties of the ONR. The only reason for that is that I think that it confuses the issue. My noble friend Lord Jenkin was absolutely right: the environment should be with the Environment Agency and design should be with the ONR. If we give the ONR the environment as well, I think that there will be more confusion than light and that would be an unhappy situation.
The noble Lord, Lord Judd, talked about the importance of having our own people on the safety and security standards. Have we not blown it, from being world leaders to having to rely on overseas firms? Not that I am against that, but to have lost the world lead that we had is one of the great tragedies of the past 50 years. I am particularly sad that the fast breeder reactor at Dounreay, just down the road from my home, is not flourishing but is being decommissioned.
One of the reasons why we lost our world lead is that we did not take public opinion with us. This is a crucial issue and Amendment 78A in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, is perhaps more relevant in that regard. When the ONR and the Environment Agency look at these plans they have to be able to say that this has the seal of approval under the highest standards and quality that are right for Britain. If that does not happen, we will lose the support of public opinion again. It will be back to not just square one but minus five on the scale. That would be a sadness.
The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, reminded us that there are different designs. That is a concern and I wish that we would stick to one design in the competition. If you can replicate that design, you are going to lower costs. My noble friend Lord Jenkin referred to my noble friend Lord Ridley’s article of not so long ago in the Times. One of his arguments was that we should have a number of smaller nuclear plants, all identical. You could then set the safety standards right at the beginning, replicate the plants and have in-house expertise. Although I am a great proponent of and believer in competition, there is an argument here for saying that, having reached this stage, we ought to stick with one design and replicate it because that will help lower costs and help us get the relevant expertise into this area. If you have to have one set of expertise for what you are building at Hinckley, another for Anglesey and another for elsewhere, that might stretch us too far. I would therefore welcome anything that my noble friend can say on that.
Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con)
My Lords, as I read subsection (1) of Amendment 78B, it seems to distinguish between design and construction; and in subsection (2), cost-effectiveness seems to be required only in relation to construction and does not seem to apply directly to the design. That may be deliberate—I am not sure—but that needs some explanation.