Energy Bill

Lord Mackay of Clashfern Excerpts

Monday 4th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, I am slightly wary of the amendment including the environment in the duties of the ONR. The only reason for that is that I think that it confuses the issue. My noble friend Lord Jenkin was absolutely right: the environment should be with the Environment Agency and design should be with the ONR. If we give the ONR the environment as well, I think that there will be more confusion than light and that would be an unhappy situation.

The noble Lord, Lord Judd, talked about the importance of having our own people on the safety and security standards. Have we not blown it, from being world leaders to having to rely on overseas firms? Not that I am against that, but to have lost the world lead that we had is one of the great tragedies of the past 50 years. I am particularly sad that the fast breeder reactor at Dounreay, just down the road from my home, is not flourishing but is being decommissioned.

One of the reasons why we lost our world lead is that we did not take public opinion with us. This is a crucial issue and Amendment 78A in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, is perhaps more relevant in that regard. When the ONR and the Environment Agency look at these plans they have to be able to say that this has the seal of approval under the highest standards and quality that are right for Britain. If that does not happen, we will lose the support of public opinion again. It will be back to not just square one but minus five on the scale. That would be a sadness.

The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, reminded us that there are different designs. That is a concern and I wish that we would stick to one design in the competition. If you can replicate that design, you are going to lower costs. My noble friend Lord Jenkin referred to my noble friend Lord Ridley’s article of not so long ago in the Times. One of his arguments was that we should have a number of smaller nuclear plants, all identical. You could then set the safety standards right at the beginning, replicate the plants and have in-house expertise. Although I am a great proponent of and believer in competition, there is an argument here for saying that, having reached this stage, we ought to stick with one design and replicate it because that will help lower costs and help us get the relevant expertise into this area. If you have to have one set of expertise for what you are building at Hinckley, another for Anglesey and another for elsewhere, that might stretch us too far. I would therefore welcome anything that my noble friend can say on that.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con)]

My Lords, as I read subsection (1) of Amendment 78B, it seems to distinguish between design and construction; and in subsection (2), cost-effectiveness seems to be required only in relation to construction and does not seem to apply directly to the design. That may be deliberate—I am not sure—but that needs some explanation.

[The Duke of Montrose (Con)]

My Lords, I should like to express my opinion and interest in Amendment 76A. It is clear from what it says that the ONR will have responsibility for protecting “persons” against risk of harm from ionising radiation. In fact, pretty well all the risks that one can think of are those that affect persons. Perhaps in slight contrast to my noble friend Lord Caithness, my worry would be that the Environment Agency will have a big role in the approval, design and putting in place of a nuclear power station but it is more likely that the Office for Nuclear Regulation will be the body that is watching what happens day by day as the plant is running. While one can state that someone has responsibility for the environment—which is a nice, all-embracing term that we might think would take care of everything—we need to consider what the threat to the environment might be. We do not expect nuclear power stations to blow up but a whole lot of my sheep were prevented from going to market because of the nuclear explosion at Chernobyl, and various neighbours of mine were required to put all their sheep through a nuclear scanner. One man actually tried to put his dog through it in order to show the possible dangers from radiation. However, there is the possibility of food supplies being affected. At Fukushima, the issue was marine pollution. I want to be sure that the Office for Nuclear Regulation will be aware of the ongoing operation of plants in order to protect those elements.