Health and Social Care Bill Debate
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Earl Howe
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Health and Social Care Bill
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Baroness Thornton
My Lords, I rise to intervene on this Motion today with a very heavy heart—and empty-handed, because the Government have refused to release the risk register on the implementation of the Health and Social Care Bill, as instructed in the judgment of the Information Commissioner last Friday. I am grateful to the Minister for his letters to me and other noble Lords explaining the Government’s position on this matter. Thorough explanations are helpful but they do not make this a right or just position for the Government to take. The Government inform us that they need 28 days to consider this issue. I would just make the point that the Department of Health has had a whole year to think about this issue.
Noble Lords may recall that I drew this important matter to the attention of the House on Monday and specifically asked the Minister to assist the House in its deliberations by making the risk register available. I am most grateful that the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, supported my appeal. Since Monday, it has become clear that the well respected Conservative MP, Dr Sarah Wollaston, made the same plea to her own Secretary of State in a letter to the Evening Standard.
I beg the leave of the House to say I have nowhere else to raise this important matter. I do not wish to delay the House but I want to make two points and ask two questions of the Minister. There is a precedent that I urge the Minister to consider. In 2008 the noble Earl’s then honourable friend, Miss Justine Greening MP, recently promoted to the Cabinet, used an appeal to the Information Commissioner to get the release of the risk documentation on the Heathrow third runway. I am sad to report that my own Government did not cover itself in glory in this matter, refusing to part with the information for more than a year. However, the key difference between then and now is that of course the third runway was not the subject of a very large piece of primary legislation that aims to bring radical change to our NHS and that the information we are being denied could be very relevant to our deliberations.
I have already written to the noble Earl about this matter and intend to follow the same route as my right honourable friend John Healey MP by putting an FOI request in for the most recent risk register about this matter. I urge other noble Lords who share my concern to do the same. The reason I am doing this is because the Secretary of State suggested yesterday that the version of the risk register that my right honourable friend John Healey asked for would now be a year out of date. I regard that as both a glib and disrespectful remark.
The Minister told the House on Monday that most of the information from the risk register is included in the impact statement that was published when the Bill arrived in the House. Can the Minister say exactly how much of the risk register is contained in the impact assessment and how much is not? Perhaps the Minister might assist the House by publishing the information that is not contained in the impact assessment but is in the risk register. The Government say that this is a very secret document, but also that it is available. I am sure that the House would like to know which it is.
Finally, there is a course of action open to the House, which is to refuse to resolve itself into a Committee on the Bill as an expression of its concern about this matter. I have discussed this course of action with several noble Lords, and we have a genuine dilemma here. Many feel that it is a very serious error to refuse to place this information at the disposal of the House when we are considering this important Bill. On the other hand, we are all aware of the amount of work that there is to be done on this Bill. I do not intend to divide the House today, but I reserve the right to come back to this issue if it is not resolved at least within the time allotted by the judgment of the Information Commissioner. The Minister may also need to arm himself with the information contained within the risk register, because I, for one, will be asking him, at all the appropriate moments in the debates to come, whether that issue is mentioned in the risk register and what it says.
Lord Campbell-Savours
My Lords, I read the report the other day and it seems to me that the Government are refusing to publish because they have got something to hide. We want to read this document. The Information Commissioner’s report is a fascinating document which repeatedly, under a number of paragraph headings, states that the Government should publish this document and act in a transparent way in the public interest. That phrase is repeatedly referred to in the course of the document. It is quite incomprehensible that the Government should have taken this very silly decision—a sort of ostrich in the sand approach to these matters.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe)
My Lords, I fully appreciate the strength of feeling that noble Lords have on this matter and I hope that the House will accept my assurance that I have no wish to be, or to appear, unnecessarily obstructive over the release of data which your Lordships may feel should be in the public domain.
However, I should bring the House up to date. The ruling of the Information Commissioner carries with it very significant implications, not only for my department but for every department across government. The risk register is a basic tool for the management of policy implementation. It is a working document which informs advice to Ministers. Publication of departmental risk registers, were this to become routine under the Freedom of Information Act, would fundamentally affect the day-to-day working of government. In this context we are of course looking carefully at the issue of precedent, and I am grateful to the noble Baroness for having raised this.
The Government, as a whole, must therefore consider whether or not to appeal the Information Commissioner’s ruling. Officially, we are allowed 28 days from the date of the ruling in which to do this. Consequently, I regret that I cannot make any specific commitment on these matters today. I emphasise that the Government’s wish to take some further time to consider the way forward is in no way an attempt to string this matter out in a needless or obstructive manner. We intend to act with maximum speed. If a decision is taken not to appeal the Information Commissioner’s ruling, we will proceed to comply with it immediately.
I hope, however, that noble Lords will understand the Government’s view that it is reasonable to allow time in which to take a decision on a matter that is both complex and important. Meanwhile, I am very willing to consider the noble Baroness’s constructive suggestion that I should examine whether there are any risks covered in the Department of Health risk register which have not already been placed in the public domain and which could be provided without further ado. I shall give a progress report to the House on these issues at the earliest opportunity.
The Countess of Mar
My Lords, I rise briefly to support Amendment 79 moved by the noble Lord, Lord Warner, although he should not have moved it at this stage perhaps; he should have just spoken to it.
As the Minister knows, I am concerned about people with CFS/ME. They are the most neglected, denigrated and discriminated-against group in the country and there are some 60,000 of them who are severely ill, which means that they are homebound and bed-bound. They have multi-system symptoms, which are far too often neglected. They have co-morbidities—one person that I know of, who has had ME since she was 15 and is now 30, has severe gynaecological problems but because she has ME they are not going look at those. Also, she gets no social care. It is very important that these services are thoroughly integrated and that people understand that because you have ME it does not mean to say that all you need is a little bit of CBT and GET and you can get up and go. We have got to provide for people who are severely ill. So I support the noble Lord, Lord Warner, and the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley.
Earl Howe
My Lords, CCGs will be under a duty to arrange for services to meet the reasonable requirements of patients for whom they are responsible. This is the language of the current duty on the Secretary of State in Section 3 of the 2006 Act and will remain one of the fundamental principles in the future. Additionally, under their discretionary power in new Section 3A inserted by Clause 11, CCGs will have the power to arrange the provision of services and facilities for the people for whom they are responsible where that will improve physical and mental health or improve the prevention, diagnosis and treatment of illness in those people. However, CCGs do not have commissioning responsibility for all services—for instance, those that the NHS Commissioning Board will commission. For that reason, Amendment 60A would be inappropriate. However, the Bill is already expressly designed to ensure that the comprehensive health service is maintained and that patients’ needs are meet.
Amendments 76 to 78 seek to revise the commissioning responsibilities of CCGs, as set out in Clauses 10 and 11. In effect, Amendment 76 would give each CCG responsibility for commissioning for everyone normally resident in its area, removing the link between the provider of primary medical services with whom a person is registered and the CCG responsible for commissioning services for them. We think it is important to maintain this link. PCT responsibilities currently include people who may be registered with a GP in that area but who live outside the geographic boundaries of the PCT, so this is not something new. Clause 10 also includes some necessary provisions for the Secretary of State to clarify the responsibilities of CCGs in regulations—for example, when a CCG has ongoing responsibility for a patient’s care even if they are no longer a registered patient of a member of that CCG, which is an important element of the policy of continuing healthcare, and when somebody might be excluded from their responsibility, which might apply to patients registered with a GP in England but living in another part of the United Kingdom.
Amendment 78 would change the discretionary power that CCGs would have under new Section 3A into an obligation. That would go much further than the current discretionary powers of the Secretary of State. It would place CCGs in the situation of being legally obliged to arrange any services that it felt were appropriate to meet a patient’s needs. This would conflict with their duty under Section 14P to exercise their functions effectively, efficiently and economically, and could leave them open to challenge. These are judgments that commissioners, as now, need to be able to weigh up themselves in order to achieve the best possible services for their patients with the resources that they have available.
Lord Greaves
In the example that I provided, it is not a service that I am talking about; it is a facility—a new building that hosts a series of services, some of which will be GP services, some of which may be commissioned by the CCG, and some of which may be hospital services. Who, in future, will be responsible for deciding to build a new building in, say, Clitheroe, and commissioning the contracts and so on in deciding to do it?
Earl Howe
I am grateful to my noble friend, and I apologise that I did not cover that point. There are, of course, capital budgets. These exist at the moment and will continue to exist. The Commissioning Board will hold them. Where a capital project such as a building needs to be pursued, that money—as opposed to revenue money, which of course funds the commissioning of care—will be used to finance projects that are shown to be cost-effective and necessary to meet the needs of patients in a local area.
Lord Greaves
I would like to get to the bottom of this while we are talking about it. At the moment, those capital funds are provided either through the PCT or by the PCT from the money it has in the bank. In future, who will hold the funds to fund those capital projects?
Earl Howe
They will be held in the first instance by the NHS Commissioning Board. I anticipate that if a CCG or a group of CCGs wishes to establish a new service that involves a new building, a dialogue will take place with the board to bid for the necessary funds.
The noble Baroness, Lady Armstrong, put a very important question to me about the needs of the homeless. As I have indicated, CCGs will have responsibility for meeting the reasonable secondary care needs of the homeless. CCGs are responsible for unregistered patients in their area as well as those who are usually resident. Primary care for the homeless will be, as now, accessed through GP practices, either as registered or temporary patients, or through open-access GP services, such as GP-led health centres or bespoke services for the homeless. It is important that the needs of the homeless are factored in to the plans not only of CCGs but of the joint health and well-being strategies formed at local authority level. Clinical commissioning groups will participate in formulating them.
Just to clarify the point I made to my noble friend Lord Greaves, I perhaps should have made it clear that the Commissioning Board could in practice allocate capital budgets to a CCG or a group of CCGs. I hope that was implicit in what I said. I re-emphasise that clinical commissioning will deliver better outcomes only if we allow clinicians the autonomy to identify the needs of their patients and communities and to make the key decisions about how best to meet those needs. With that in mind, I hope I have provided sufficient reassurance to the noble Lord for him to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Warner
Can the noble Earl help me, before we get to Report stage, on the issue of the integration of services? He used the same argument he used previously, which is essentially that integration is a process and what we should be concerned with in the future is the outcomes framework. The problem for those of us who want to see something more on integration in the Bill is that we cannot quite see how we can change the culture on integration without having something in the Bill. Outcomes frameworks deliver results later on in the process. We see in the future what has happened. The difficulty many of us have is that we do not believe that that future will arrive unless we are more vigorous in this legislation about specifying some requirements on integration. Will the Minister write to a number of us before Report stage to explain how the outcomes framework will deliver that change of culture without words in the Bill about integration, particularly integration between health and social care? I do not expect an answer today, but I would like a clearer answer than the noble Earl has been able to give to satisfy us that we do not need some words in the Bill.
Earl Howe
I understand the point the noble Lord is making and I will be happy to write to him and other members of the Committee. The Bill already provides a framework of powers and duties which will support more integrated approaches to meeting patients’ health and social care needs, ranging from requirements to ensure that use is made of research in the health service to the close relationship between commissioners and the local authority and the health and well-being board. We ought not to forget that the NHS Commissioning Board guidance under new Section 14Z(6) could well cover the exercise of this function of integration. I accept the noble Lord’s point that in large measure it is a matter of changing cultures and one cannot achieve that through the written word in a Bill that goes through Parliament. However, I would be happy to put some flesh on the bones for noble Lords in writing and I hope that that will be helpful.
Lord Cotter
My noble friend has given a careful response, as always, to the points made. However, will he accept that there is a very special need for focus on rare conditions and the struggle to get both diagnosis and treatment? I hope my noble friend will take note of this because I can attest, through my wife, that there is a lifetime struggle from childhood to get these issues addressed. I hope that will be borne in mind.
Earl Howe
I am grateful to my noble friend and I did mean to make specific reference to his speech, which I found very impressive. He is of course absolutely right. There is no doubt that the commissioning of specialised services in recent years has improved in many areas but it is still variable. I do not believe I am misrepresenting those who champion the cause of patients with rare conditions by saying that they welcome the fact that the commissioning of specialised care will now fall to the NHS Commissioning Board. In other words, the commissioning will be done once and not, as at the moment, very frequently 10 times at strategic health authority level. It is absolutely clear that for all sorts of reasons greater consistency and better quality need to be injected into the commissioning of specialised care. The points my noble friend made were ones that we certainly subscribe to.
Baroness Williams of Crosby
When the noble Earl was talking about the relationship between health and well-being boards and the local commissioning groups, he said that consultation would be expected but that in the last analysis if there was no agreement there would be no question of the health and well-being board having to approve of the CCG’s plans. In the event of a serious difference of opinion, for example, about provision for the homeless or provision for special needs in a community, would there be any possibility of referring the matter up to the board or would it just be left to them to try to reach the best agreement they could?
Earl Howe
Part of the function of the board is to support decision-making at a local level if that is ever required. If there were a serious disagreement of the kind my noble friend describes, I envisage that the resources of the board could be made available to the decision-makers at local level to try to find a way through whatever disagreement had occurred.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Howe, for his response. Essentially what he is saying is that the reasonable requirement duty based on current legislation, together with the discretionary power in Clause 11, is sufficient to ensure that clinical commissioning groups will commission in a comprehensive way and deal with the many specific issues raised by noble Lords in this very interesting debate. He went on to assure us that if they are not doing that, the annual assessment based on outcomes alongside clinical commissioning guidance will make sure that CCGs are kept up to scratch.
My concern as to whether that is going to be sufficient partly comes because of the attitude of some GP practices to what one might call “difficult to reach” patients; for example, homeless people or people with mental health problems. We have heard about the rare disease issue. I am sceptical that the views of GPs in their surgeries are somehow going to be translated into a much more comprehensive vision the moment they step inside the door of the clinical commissioning group. That, at heart, is where people’s concerns are. I agree that framing an amendment to satisfy this point will not be easy, but I suspect that we will all want to come back at Report to try to button this down.
My noble friend Lord Warner referred to the question of interventions, which is relevant to this. I am still not clear. The Secretary of State has been right to intervene with PCTs on the question of artificial waits for treatment but CCGs will do the same because they will have the same problems with resources. We were told last week that we have got this cancer fund, about which there will be no option. Ministers will make other promises in the future and yet money is being taken out of the health service. There is bound to be tension around the CCG board table. What if it decides that the 18-week wait is no longer important to it or it has a rule that if it is not urgent, a patient has to wait for a certain amount of time—because it is a way of controlling its costs? Where, then, is the intervention going to be?
My final point is about this whole question of the mechanism of health and intervention. I have not picked up the local field force yet—this is an innovation. However, it is quite clear that the NHS Commissioning Board, at a local level, will have to be a local player. It has the right of attending health and well-being boards, and presumably, if we do not get integrated health and social care, it will have to take advantage of that presence. It will hold the contracts of all GPs, so I assume that it will deal with complaints. The local field force will have to deal with the allocation of patients to practices where GPs are refusing to accept them. I am left with a sense that, in fact, there will be quite a large bureaucracy at the local level; the difference being that now it is under a proper public board. In the future it will be an outpost of a massive organisation based at the centre. I question whether that really is an improvement on what we have.
This has been a good debate. I sure we will want to come back at Report stage on the reassurance we need about comprehensive commissioning by CCGs, but, at this stage, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Thornton
I should just say how pleased I am that the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, has brought his great experience and commitment to the children and the family into this debate. I urge him to remain in his place for the debate that we are going to have very soon on children.
Earl Howe
My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, mentioned, the two amendments in this group, Amendments 68AA and 69AA, are essentially dealing with the same matter on which we had considerable debate on an earlier day. Both seek to make an explicit reference in the provisions of the Bill to improving the physical and mental health of the population. I can well understand that the noble Lord with his extensive knowledge and experience of child health in particular should have tabled these amendments. The other amendments to which he spoke are in a later group. I shall respond briefly to those, but I hope that he will forgive me if I do not do so at length, because I think that there will be other noble Lords when we get to that group who will want to expand even more fully on the issue of children’s health.
I shall not dwell again, if the noble Lord will forgive me, on issues raised in the course of the earlier debate, on 2 November, but I reassure him that all references to illness throughout the Bill relate to both physical and mental illness. Illness is defined in the 2006 Act to include mental illness. Equally, it is not for nothing that we have chosen the name health and well-being board to refer to the mechanism at local authority level to define the health needs and priorities of a local area and set a health and well-being strategy to guide commissioners. That sense of well-being is to be at the forefront of commissioners’ minds. The Bill does not provide an explicit definition of health, but I assure the noble Lord that it recognises that well-being means more than the absence of illness and needs to be addressed separately. The approach in the NHS Act and other legislation is that health is simply given its ordinary definition and is not redefined.
The noble Lord, not for the first time, spoke compellingly about the importance of parents in supporting both the health and well-being of children. I could not agree with him more. The whole spirit of the measures set out in this Bill is to give more control and empowerment to patients. For children, that includes their parents. As such, I ask the noble Lord not to despair by reason of the lack of words in the Bill on this topic, as the intent is most certainly there. It is not for nothing, either, that the Bill places duties on the Secretary of State and other bodies in the Bill to exercise their functions with a view to securing continuous improvement in the quality of services. The agenda set by the noble Lord, Lord Darzi, in the last Government runs through this Bill like a thread, and it is our ambition for clinical commissioning groups that the prevention agenda should be centre stage for them, as it already is for practice-based commissioning groups, which are looking at what we call the QIPP agenda—quality, innovation, productivity and prevention—as a way of driving efficiency and better quality care into primary medical services. I am sure that all noble Lords’ ambition is that the NHS should not just be a national treatment service; it should be a national health and well-being service in the fullest sense.
On the public front, I am sure that the noble Lord will have noticed that in Clause 8 new Section 2A is inserted into the 2006 Act. I draw his attention to subsection (2)(d) in that new section, which refers explicitly to prevention in the area of public health.
We will come to the other amendments spoken to by the noble Lord when we come to a later group, but I will just comment very briefly on them at this point.
As regards Amendment 71ZAA, our general approach is not to specify particular services in the Bill. It already allows the Secretary of State or local authorities to take steps to improve the health of the people of England or the people in the local authority’s area. Once again, it is a case of making that general provision. Bear in mind that if we specify one group of people, it carries the implication that we are excluding others, which of course we do not want to do.
The same point applies with Amendment 97ZA. Strictly speaking, Amendment 99A is unnecessary. The mandate is clearly relevant to other government priorities. There are already established mechanisms for ensuring that policy is consistent across government and therefore we would fully expect the Department for Education to provide input on any relevant parts of the mandate. I hope that the noble Lord will be reassured by my brief comments on this matter. His comments are well taken; equally in the light of what I have said, I hope that he will feel able to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Hollins
My Lords, I might add that Amendments 68A and 69A refer back to Clause 1 and the Secretary of State’s duty to promote a comprehensive health service,
“designed to secure improvement … in the physical and mental health of the people of England”.
Of course, I support the amendments and note that their purpose is different from the purpose of my own extensively debated and supported amendments, which sought to ensure improvement in the quality of services for people with illness. I specify both mental and physical illness. Rather than speaking about mental health, I actually speak about illness. Instead of detaining the House now, perhaps I could speak to the Minister at a later date.
Earl Howe
My Lords, I should be happy to speak to the noble Baroness on this topic. I have been reflecting on it since our debate some days ago. I do not suggest that the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, are designed to do exactly the same as those of the noble Baroness, however they draw our attention to a similar definitional issue.
Earl Howe
My Lords, noble Lords who tabled amendments in this group have drawn attention to the particular needs of children. I am in total sympathy with their wish to highlight the importance of children's health in all its facets. The noble Baroness, Lady Wilkins, mentioned Sir Ian Kennedy's report, Getting it Right for Children and Young People, published last year. Sir Ian emphasised that the NHS does not always get everything right for children. He gave us some hard-hitting messages. I say again what I said in my letter after Second Reading: we are determined to build in children's health explicitly and clearly throughout the new system. The NHS reforms are designed to put firm foundations in place to secure improvements, and the Health and Social Care Bill contains sufficient levers to ensure that the new NHS will work better for children.
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, for his very compelling contributions today and at Second Reading, when he raised questions on speech and language therapy. I commend his work as chair of the All Party Parliamentary Group on Speech and Language Difficulties. I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Wilkins, for her extremely constructive remarks. I share the commitment of the noble Baroness and the noble Lord to ensuring the early identification of speech, language and communication needs among pre-school children. What can we do about this? One thing that we can do and are committed to doing is beefing up community health resources targeted at the well-being of children and families. In that context, I reassure noble Lords who spoke to these amendments that we are committed to increasing the health visitor workforce by 4,200 by 2015.
We are equally committed to improved delivery of the healthy child programme, which includes a development review at the age of two to two-and-a-half. That provides a huge opportunity, and we are clear that it has to be seized. Everything that has been said by noble Lords about child development in the early years is absolutely to the point. The noble Baroness, Lady Armstrong, rightly referred to the family nurse partnership programme, which has done a tremendous amount, as she explained to us, to address the needs of what were traditionally considered hard-to-reach families.
In his absence, I would also like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, for his earlier remarks. I will take the opportunity to address his specific concerns. The Bill as drafted would already allow the Secretary of State or local authorities to provide services to parents or prospective parents where that was a step whose primary purpose was improving health. We recognise that the health and well-being of women before, during and after pregnancy is a critical factor in giving children a healthy start in life and laying the groundwork for good health and well-being in later life.
How can we do this better? The Health and Social Care Bill will, we believe, provide the basis for better collaboration and partnership working across local government and the NHS at all levels. The drivers of the integration in the NHS will be the CCGs and the NHS Commissioning Board. Both have new duties to promote integrated working by taking specific action where beneficial to patients. In addition, the Bill gives each health and well-being board a duty to encourage integrated working between health and care commissioners to advance the health and well-being of the people in its area. That would include children and young people.
The key NHS and public health contributions to speech, language and communication needs are these: first, early identification of pregnant women who may themselves have had the same kinds of difficulties and who would benefit from enhanced support in preparation for parenthood; secondly, building the capacity of universal services working with young children to provide the support required in the early stages, enabling speech and language therapists to focus their support where it is most needed; thirdly, early identification of children with speech, language and communication needs, where enhanced health visitor capacity and better delivery of early years reviews at the age of two to two-and-a-half will be a focus; fourthly, local planning and commissioning for speech and language therapy services through clinical commissioning groups; and, fifthly, consideration of how high-cost and low-volume provision should be commissioned in the new system.
The Government are also committed to tackling obesity and to the continuation of the national child measurement programme. Now in its seventh year, this is a trusted source of world-class data, providing annual information on levels of overweight and obesity in primary school children in their reception year and in year 6. The government amendments in this group amend the powers of the Secretary of State in paragraph 7B of Schedule 1 to the NHS Act 2006 so that he can make regulations about the processing of the full data set of information relevant to this programme. This would include both information resulting directly from the weighing and measuring activity and other relevant data held by local authorities. The amendments also ensure that he can require persons exercising functions in relation to the programme to have regard to guidance about the processing of that information. Our proposals aim to ensure that this important programme can continue to operate in full effect once it transitions to local authorities, along with other public health functions, from April 2013. I hope that the Committee will support the amendments.
I have discussed the vital importance of a focus on children’s needs throughout the NHS, but in our view it would not be appropriate to anticipate priorities in future mandates by enshrining in legislation the inclusion of objectives relating to particular sections of the population—a point I made earlier to the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, while he was in his place—nor would it be appropriate to impose requirements on CCGs to exercise their functions with reference to specific patient groups or treatments. What you do not emphasise, you can serve to downplay.
CCGs are already under a duty to exercise their functions with a view to procuring that health services are provided in an integrated way for all patients where they consider this will improve the quality of health services and outcomes and reduce inequalities in outcomes and access. The duty also applies in relation to the integration of health services with the provision of health-related and social care services. Where education and children’s services are health or social care-related, they would therefore already be covered by this duty.
The noble Baroness, Lady Wilkins, and the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, tabled a series of amendments concerning the role of health and well-being boards. I fully support the need to ensure the effective assessment of need and access to professional advice on education and children’s services. However, although extremely well intentioned, the amendments are unnecessary and also run counter to the principle of local areas being best placed to assess local need and to access appropriate local expertise. I hope that noble Lords will not press those amendments.
On Amendment 91A, on our second day in Committee we discussed a group of amendments on the topic of integration. There were numerous extremely valuable contributions from many noble Lords that ensured that we had a very informative debate. However, it may be helpful to the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, and the noble Baroness, Lady Wilkins, if I briefly mention that the requirement the Bill places on the board and the clinical commissioning groups to promote integration when commissioning services is very germane in this context. Clauses 20 and 23 contain new Sections 13M and 14Y which create duties for national and local commissioners to promote integration across health and social care. I am thoroughly supportive of the intention behind this amendment. Better integration of services will undoubtedly lead to high quality and better care for patients, and that is why we have asked the NHS Future Forum to consider in more detail how we can ensure that our reforms lead to better integrated services. I am very much looking forward to receiving its recommendations which will be published before the end of the year. I hope that the noble Lord and the noble Baroness will feel reassured by that.
I think the tenor of the question from the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, was about whether all children’s public health services should be commissioned at a local level from the outset in 2013 to avoid fragmenting the delivery of programmes and care pathways. We believe that the commitment to secure a 50 per cent increase in the number of health visitors and thereby ensure associated improvements in support for families is best achieved through NHS commissioning, and we have therefore retained our original proposal that the NHS Commissioning Board should lead commissioning in this area in the short term. However, we wish to engage further on the detail of the proposals, particularly in respect of transition arrangements and the best way to begin to involve local authorities in local commissioning of these services in partnership with the NHS.
The noble Baroness also referred to the important issue of safeguarding children. Local authorities will continue to lead on safeguarding children arrangements under the Children Act 2004. The board and CCGs will be members of local safeguarding children boards. I have already spoken about the national child measurement programme, and I hope that I covered the noble Baroness’s questions adequately on that topic.
The noble Baroness asked why the government amendment allowed any other information to be prescribed. The amendment will maintain the Secretary of State’s powers to regulate the processing of child measurement data after local authorities undertake the measurement programme, in the same way that PCTs currently deliver the programme. It would not be appropriate to set out the full national child measurement programme data set in primary legislation, as she will understand. The power also gives flexibility to make changes to the data collection that will be needed going forward, and that will allow the Government to ensure that the national child measurement programme remains fit for purpose. Of course, the introduction of any new data would need to be set out in regulations, subject to public consultation and the negative parliamentary procedure.
I hope that that covers the ground adequately. Once again, I thank noble Lords for their contributions. I can now see that the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker, wishes to ask me a question.
Baroness Whitaker
It is the same question. In the noble Earl’s very comprehensive answer, did I miss whether speech, language and communication problems were within public health? I do not recall hearing him answer that question.
Baroness Thornton
While the noble Earl is collecting questions that we feel were not answered, I asked specifically about the risk register, whether it is 100 per cent of children and where the weighing and measuring is taking place.
Earl Howe
My Lords, I will have to write to the noble Baroness on that question, and indeed some of the other questions that she posed in her speech. I hope she will allow that. As regards speech and language therapy, rather than give the noble Baroness an answer that may turn out to be incorrect, I may have to drop her a note. I will write to her.
Lord Ramsbotham
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his habitually thorough and sympathetic summing up. I think we can look forward to further work on this subject. I also thank all those who have taken part in this debate, and particularly the noble Baroness, Lady Wilkins, for her words. I must apologise to the House for saying that it was district nurses who did the work; of course, it is health visitors.
I have two concerns, one of which the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker, has just mentioned, which is the question of confirmation that this is a public health issue. My second concern is, in the words of the Minister, that this should be left to be a local issue. I am concerned about the number of issues that are being devolved to local government for it to have to decide differing priorities. That is an unfair burden in this particular issue, which I do not believe should ever be left to be a postcode lottery for the children of this country. In that spirit and bearing in mind that I shall look very carefully at what the Minister said, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Earl Howe
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, has introduced these two amendments which deal with the important issue of mental health, high-secure mental health services in particular. Amendment 85 would reinstate the Secretary of State’s duty to provide high-secure services. I want to reassure the Committee that while this duty has been removed, the Bill is clear that the Commissioning Board must arrange provision of these services. But I recognise the concern and I agree that we must ensure these services are provided and that the Secretary of State continues to be involved. High-secure mental health services are highly specialised and have close links to the criminal justice system. They deliver high-quality clinical care and public protection. We have, therefore, set out in the Bill powers of direction over the NHS Commissioning Board in relation to its commissioning of high-secure services and over high-secure providers in relation to the actual provision of high-secure services. To give a couple of practical examples of the Secretary of State’s accountability, he needs to ensure that there is sufficient capacity in the high-secure system so that when the Secretary of State for Justice directs an offender to a high-secure hospital, there will be a place. Secondly, the Secretary of State for Health also needs to ensure that the high-secure system is safe and secure so that the Secretary of State for Justice is confident that when offenders are directed there, public protection will be upheld. The Bill also requires the Secretary of State to authorise high-secure providers. I am confident that these measures together ensure that these services will be properly commissioned by the NHS Commissioning Board, while retaining appropriate levels of intervention by the Secretary of State. I therefore hope the noble Lord will feel comfortable in withdrawing his amendment. He asked about oversight of secure mental health services. The commissioning of those services, as I have said, will be overseen by the Secretary of State. CQC and Monitor will oversee the provision of secure mental health services.
Amendment 86 would introduce a direction-making power in relation to the NHS Commissioning Board’s commissioning of mental health services in general. The noble Lord did not speak at length to that amendment. I explained just now that it is appropriate for the Secretary of State to have direction-making powers over the board in relation to the commissioning of high-secure mental health services. That is because of the specialised nature of those services and the links to public protection. But the noble Lord will not be surprised to hear me say that the introduction of a direction-making power in relation to the board’s commissioning of mental health services in general is not consistent with the approach in the rest of the Bill. As the noble Lord knows, mental health encompasses a huge range of conditions and services and individual needs and we believe local commissioning by clinical commissioning groups will be the best solution to meet most mental health needs with some commissioning by the NHS Commissioning Board for more specialised areas of care.
The noble Lord expressed doubts about the extent to which CCGs will have the necessary focus on mental health. Here we come back to the role of the board in issuing commissioning guidance to CCGs, underpinned by the quality standards that NICE will produce. We should remember, too, that CCGs will be consistently held to account against the outcome domains of the commissioning outcomes framework. Part of the holding to account will embrace mental health outcomes.
We demonstrated our commitment to mental health with the early publication of the cross-government mental health strategy. We had a lengthy debate about that important area earlier in the Committee's proceedings. I have no doubt that there is more to say, but I hope that, after those few remarks, the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl. On the role of the board in commissioning services, I will make a general point: clearly the national Commissioning Board will be very important. How it works should be scrutinised. I suspect that this will lead us on to the question of the mandate, which we will debate next week. At this stage, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
(i) ”
Earl Howe
My Lords, the standing rules will set the ongoing legal requirements for both the NHS Commissioning Board and the clinical commissioning groups. We intend to use the standing rules to replicate core elements of the current system, setting out the ongoing requirements, which will predominantly replace existing directions from the Secretary of State. As the standing rules will set out system-wide generic requirements, they will not apply to individual CCGs. While the rules will be kept under review, we do not expect to update them annually.
Clause 17 confers powers to make standing rules in a number of specified areas. The powers will be used to maintain the existing arrangements for NHS continuing healthcare—that is, care arranged and funded solely by the NHS for individuals outside hospital who have ongoing healthcare needs. They will also set out the mandatory terms to be included in commissioning contracts, set requirements around the provision of information and provide the legal basis for certain patient rights in the NHS constitution.
In addition to the particular areas specified in the clause, the Secretary of State will have a backstop power to make standing rules in other areas, under subsection (7)(c) of new Section 6E. He can require the board and clinical commissioning groups to do other things which he considers necessary for the purposes of the health service. The power simply provides a prudent degree of system flexibility to take account of changing circumstances in the NHS.
Noble Lords have tabled a number of amendments regarding the scrutiny that the regulations will receive, both through consultations and by Parliament. The noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, spoke with great force and persuasiveness on this theme. There are two elements to the scrutiny question—public consultation and parliamentary scrutiny. I can assure the Committee that in line with good practice across government, we fully intend to consult publicly on any new proposals for standing rules. The Health Select Committee would have the opportunity to examine proposals, and Ministers and the department would of course engage constructively with the Committee on any inquiry. However, I do not think that it is usual practice for legislation to set expectations on how the Government should work with Select Committees or on which areas the committees should focus.
Questions have also been raised about whether the board should be required to consult interested parties, such as representatives of CCGs and providers, before it drafts standard contract terms. We believe that regulations should be flexible on that point and minor changes will not always require consultation. Therefore, the regulations should be able to provide for this flexibility where necessary.
As to questions of parliamentary scrutiny, the standing rules will be subject to the negative resolution procedure, with the affirmative procedure used if the Government exercised the backstop power to make standing rules to require the board and clinical commissioning groups to do other things that the Secretary of State considers necessary for the purposes of the health service. The Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee of your Lordships’ House was satisfied with these arrangements, as set out in its recent report on the Bill, which I was pleased to note.
The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, asked why the standing rules are not subject to the affirmative procedure. The rules will replicate current provisions in existing legislation, so we believe that the negative procedure provides for adequate scrutiny of these provisions. However, we agree that the affirmative procedure is important in other cases, which is why the broader power to allow the Secretary of State to make regulations which require the board or CCGs to do such other things as the Secretary of State considers necessary for the purposes of the health service—under subsection (7)(c) of new Section 6E, to be inserted into the NHS Act under Clause 17, which is a very generalised provision—will be subject to the affirmative procedure, which we think is the right balance.
Incidentally, the noble Lord remarked that, in his view, one cannot move in this Bill for delegated powers. I disagree with that. I think that this Bill represents a very significant transfer of power from the Executive to Parliament through placing far more detail in primary legislation as to the structures and workings of the health service than we have ever had before. For example, this Bill enshrines a process for the tariff, which is currently nowhere to be found in legislation.
The noble Lord asked about consultation on the standing rules themselves. The consultation to which the noble Lord referred is consultation by the board on standard contract terms with interested parties. Consultation on the standing rules themselves will be consultation by the Secretary of State. We intend to consult on these in line with good practice, as I have indicated.
Noble Lords also raised concerns about integration. We have discussed this topic at some length already, so I will be fairly brief. I can reassure noble Lords that the board and CCGs will be subject to the public sector equality duty set out in Section 149 of the Equality Act 2010—I am looking here particularly at the noble Baroness, Lady Wilkins, whose points I fully took. This is in addition to the duties set out by this Bill that require the board and CCGs to have regard to the need to reduce inequalities in outcomes and access to services when exercising their functions. I agree with the noble Baroness that awareness, training and understanding of the particular needs of people with disabilities are absolutely vital for all health bodies if they are to ensure that the improvement in outcomes that is needed in this area can be realised. We keep coming back to the outcomes framework. We should not forget it. It is not necessary to put it in the Bill but it does overarch the Bill, and we believe that the Bill creates the framework for the NHS to improve through the combination of clinically led commissioning and strengthened joint working.
Turning to the concerns raised by my noble friend Lord Lucas in his amendment, I draw the Committee’s attention to the provision that enables the standing rules to set out the mandatory terms to be included in the commissioning contracts. We expect that contracts will include, as now, provision to ensure that private providers are required to assist and co-operate with commissioners to enable them to comply with their disclosure obligations under the Freedom of Information Act. The underpinning of this is that, where a provider is not a public authority—that is, not an NHS trust or an NHS foundation trust—there is a provision in the current contracts for private providers to do exactly as I have indicated. I can tell my noble friend that we intend to use the standing rules to continue this provision, and I hope he will feel that that is entirely in keeping with, and goes with the grain of, his Amendment 92.
I also want to touch on the provisions that relate to EU obligations. These should be read alongside Clause 16, which allows the Secretary of State to delegate EU functions to the board and clinical commissioning groups. It sets out two types of direction-making power: one to direct about the exercise of delegated EU functions and the other to direct about any functions to ensure that we can respond quickly to potential breaches of EU law. Where there are ongoing, predictable requirements that derive from EU obligations but that do not relate to functions delegated under Clause 16, the power in the standing rules will be appropriate. We think that it is preferable to put such requirements in regulations rather than directions as this allows for parliamentary scrutiny and certainty for the NHS.
In the light of the details that I have set out, I hope that noble Lords who have spoken will feel able to withdraw their amendments.
Lord Lucas
Does my noble friend want my 15-minute speech now or will he promise me a meeting before Report stage? Given judgments that have already been made in parallel cases in other parts of freedom of information law, I do not believe that the solution he offers will work and achieve what he has promised. I shall be very happy to swap him a meeting before Report stage for a 15-minute speech now.
Lord Hennessy of Nympsfield
I am very grateful to the Minister for his, as always, very thoughtful reply. I am grateful, too, to the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, for her point, which I fully accept, about the collective gift of this Chamber when it comes to detailed scrutiny. Quite naturally, I also note her point about the sovereignty of Select Committees in the other place. In some ways it sounds an innovative suggestion that the Health Select Committee should take on this scrutiny regulatory task, but there are some precedents—remedial orders under the Human Rights Act, following declarations of incompatibility, and orders under the Legislative and Regulatory Reform Act 2006, are all made only after scrutiny in draft by the relevant Select Committees.
I think that this matter is too important to the accountability question as a whole for it to be abandoned at this stage. Therefore, I am confident that several noble Lords will wish it to be re-examined once more on Report. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.