Border Security, Asylum and Immigration Bill

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Baroness Butler-Sloss

Report stage
Wednesday 5th November 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The noble Lord’s comments clarify, from his perspective, what he seeks to achieve. I have to clarify again from my perspective that I still cannot support the amendment. I am very sorry—we are not going to get an agreement on these matters.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

I am just wondering whether it would be worth the Government looking at what the noble Lord, Lord German, said about the margin of appreciation in looking at an international document. In particular, it may be that the courts are applying Article 8 too narrowly, and it might be worth the Government reconsidering how Article 8 should be applied. That would not be getting rid of the ECHR or the Human Rights Act, but it would look at how Article 8 is being applied.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The noble and learned Baroness makes an extremely valid point, and I shall come on to that issue in a moment. The commitment to the ECHR does not mean complacency on the Government’s part. To retain public confidence in our policies on irregular migration, asylum and criminal justice, the ECHR and other instruments must evolve to face modern challenges. I must say to the noble and learned Baroness and the House as a whole that the UK is safer and stronger when we work with our international partners—a point made by the noble Lord, Lord German. That is why we need to co-operate with Europe, in answer to the noble and learned Baroness, to look at a whole-of-route approach to tackling these challenges. Membership of the ECHR is essential to our ability to work with our European partners, including on the trade and co-operation agreement, the sharing of intelligence and evidence, and practical agreements to stop people-smuggling.

The Government have set out their plans to reform the immigration system in the immigration White Paper. We will reform the framework for family migration, including strengthening the public interest test to take back control. To answer the noble Lords, Lord Jackson and Lord Faulks, as well as the points made by the noble and learned Baroness, we will legislate to reform our approach to the application of Article 8 of the ECHR in the immigration system, and we are also reviewing the application of Article 3 in immigration and extradition cases.

I accept that I may be pressed on this issue, and the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, pressed me on it in September in Committee. I have repeated what I said in November, now, on Report, but I hope the noble Lord will recognise that I have given a commitment that we will look at those issues and bring back things that this House can investigate, test, challenge and question to try to achieve the objective of giving greater flexibility on Articles 3 and 8, in line with what the Prime Minister has said and what the noble Lord, Lord German, has suggested, as well as what the noble and learned Baroness has just intervened on me to suggest. I ask the noble Lord for patience, after saying that it will be brought forward. I have given commitments to this House on two occasions, but I cannot do it in the way he wants it to be laid before the House today—but the commitments are there to achieve that.

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[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

I gather that it is proposed to have a meeting. Would it be possible for other Peers to join?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I offered the meeting to my noble friend Lord Dubs but I am very happy— I am committing my honourable friend Alex Norris to a meeting—for, let us say, a representative group of Peers to join my noble friend, should he wish them to. Let us make an offer: we have space for a Member from the Liberal Democrat Bench, from the Cross Benches, from the Bishops’ Bench, should they wish to do so, and from His Majesty’s Loyal Opposition, as well as my noble friend Lord Dubs. I think that it is a fair approach, on a difficult issue, for him to take the case to the Home Office and bring with him a representative group of NGOs. Maybe it could be a separate meeting, if Peers want to meet the Minister personally. I will try to be present, given my commitments to taking the Crime and Policing Bill, as well as this Bill, through this House.

I do not want to find myself in the opposite Lobby to my noble friend Lord Dubs but, if he pushes the amendment, I am afraid that I will have to. I hope he can accept the offer and look at exploring further with Ministers the appropriate points which he has rightly put in a passionate contribution today, supported by Members across this House.

Elon Musk

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Baroness Butler-Sloss

Tuesday 4th November 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I would certainly welcome much silence from Mr Musk, but, again, I would defend his right to have his opinion; I just do not agree with it. It is not for somebody in his position to ally himself with individuals who are trying to destroy much of the fabric of British society by their comments, nor is it appropriate for him to express his views via some new-fangled machinery down the line to the United Kingdom. We are a democracy; we know what we are doing. Members opposite disagree with us, but all people in this society have a chance to judge the Government, and they voted for the Government less than 15 or 16 months ago.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

Could the Minister arrange for a copy of this part of Hansard to be sent to Elon Musk?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I fear that I will be a star of Twitter, or X, before the evening is finished; I will probably be retweeted to thousands of people who will take a different view from me. I stand here not because I am me but because I am a representative of an elected Government who have won a clear majority and who ultimately will have to defend their record to the same people who elected them.

Border Security, Asylum and Immigration Bill

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Baroness Butler-Sloss

Committee stage
Tuesday 8th July 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady May of Maidenhead, for tabling these amendments and instigating this discussion. I am grateful for the efforts that she took as Home Secretary, all those years ago, to establish the first Modern Slavery Act, following the very good process that the noble Lord, Lord Alton of Liverpool, mentioned. As I recall, having been the shadow at the time, that process had Frank Field, among others, chairing cross-party pre-legislative scrutiny efforts, which led to the legislation—the Act whose implementation my right honourable friend the current Home Secretary and I, as Members of Parliament, shadowed at the time.

It is one thing to pass an Act—we have all done that many times in this House and other Houses—but it is quite another to retain what I sense is a lifelong interest and passion for the issue. I say to the noble Baroness, 10 years on, that it is a tribute to her commitment at the time that she continues to do that. I also pay tribute to the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, the noble Lord, Lord Randall, in his absence, and the noble Lord, Lord Alton. All four have now formed a sort of coalition—I think we will call them the quartet after the earlier intervention by colleagues—that is taking a real interest in the development of this issue. I was pleased to address, on behalf of the Government, a reception in the House of Lords a couple of weeks ago at which the noble Baroness, Lady May, appeared virtually to look at the next stages of tackling this issue.

Having said all that, I hope I can reassure the noble Baroness that the amendments she has tabled today are covered by existing legislation. I am willing to be tested on that, but I hope I can give her that reassurance. She raised these issues at Second Reading and I hoped I had given her such reassurances then.

Amendment 47 seeks to provide a reasonable excuse for articles for use in immigration crime for those who are acting under duress of slavery, a point made by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, and the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Sentamu. I put it to the noble Baroness and the other noble Lords that the protections she is seeking are covered by Section 45 of the very Modern Slavery Act 2015 that was legislated for at that time. Going back to the point mentioned by the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Sentamu, Section 45 provides a statutory defence against prosecution where an individual was compelled to commit an offence as a result of their exploitation. That is very clear in the Modern Slavery Act, which—this is my view and that of my legal advisers in the Home Office, and I hope it has been echoed again today—can be interpreted to mean that, in the event of trafficking from modern slavery, all of the provisions of the Bill can be dealt with by that statutory defence. We can debate that, but I hope it will eventually satisfy the noble Baroness’s noble intention in bringing forward the amendment today.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

The trouble with the Modern Slavery Act 2015 is that it is 10 years old, and some of it is not as well regarded as it might be. I recently attended an interesting discussion with the Minister in the other place, Jess Phillips, about updating the Modern Slavery Act so that people recognise that it is actually effective.

The Minister will know that the Government are putting into the Crime and Policing Bill a child exploitation clause. Technically, that is covered in the Modern Slavery Act, but they are putting that provision in there because the Act is not being properly regarded. This issue is something else that is not being properly regarded. Although technically it is in Section 45, to which I referred earlier, I am sure the Minister knows that Section 45 is not used in the courts as often as it ought to be, and that is a very practical reason for putting it into the Bill. If the Minister’s Government are prepared to put child exploitation into the Crime and Policing Bill, why can they not put another similar matter into this one?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The noble and learned Baroness makes an important point. I know that she, along with the noble Lord, Lord Randall, and my noble friend Lady O’Grady, met Jess Phillips last week. I hoped to join that meeting but parliamentary demands meant that I had to answer on an issue in this House, which meant I could not attend. I know that the committee of this House that produced the modern slavery report has raised a number of suggestions for updating and improving the Modern Slavery Act. My honourable friend Jess Phillips, who has direct responsibility for this issue in her position in the House of Commons as a Minister in the Home Office, is examining all the issues that were brought forward and wishes to make some improvements. The points in the Crime and Policing Bill, which will come before this House at some point, extend aspects of the modern slavery legislation regarding child exploitation.

Again, I give the noble and learned Baroness the reassurance that the assessment of our legal teams, and my assessment with Jess, as the Minister, and with other Ministers dealing with the Bill from all aspects of Parliament, concludes that the protections sought are covered by Section 45 of the Modern Slavery Act 2015. We can test that and we can reflect on it outside the Chamber, and the noble and learned Baroness and others can put points to us in response to what I have said, but that is the judgment that we have made.

Public Order Act 1986: Section 5

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Baroness Butler-Sloss

Tuesday 10th June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord. Let me put it this way. If a potential offence—which threats to kill are—is made, the police have a duty to investigate and, if the offence proves to have validity, to take action, to prepare a case, to go to the CPS and to take potential conviction action where the court will determine whether the allegation the noble Lord has made is correct. The individual concerned is appealing. I cannot comment on the appeal; Members of this House would not expect me to comment on either the conviction to date or the potential appeal. I say to the noble Lord that, if offences are potentially being committed, it is the duty of the police to investigate and take action. I will leave it—if he will let me, in a freedom of speech way—at that.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

What is the view of the Government about incidents logged by the police which do not in fact create crimes?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

We are in discussion with the police, the College of Policing and the Chief Constables’ Council on the very issue the noble and learned Baroness raises. That has come out of a number of cases since the general election which have been brought to our attention, where we believe the police should be taking action to investigate crimes. But they should also be proportionate in what they do in relation to the way in which that crime is brought to their attention and make a decision on that. I have been clear at this Dispatch Box on several occasions that the police need to examine the approach to those non-crime hate incidents very clearly. I believe the police will be doing so and issuing guidance in due course.

Police: Stop and Search

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Baroness Butler-Sloss

Tuesday 6th May 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The noble Lord is absolutely right; it is important there is training in the use of stop and search by police officers and that it is updated. It is important that the outcomes of stop and searches are monitored for both the impacts, which the noble Lord mentioned earlier, and to see whether racial disparities are taking place. Those should be fed back to both the College of Policing and the National Police Chiefs’ Council. This is why the National Police Chiefs’ Council is issuing and regularly updating information on the race action plan, both monitoring it and examining its impact.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords—

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[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, the Minister was talking about increased numbers of police. Are the Government supportive of neighbourhood policing?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

We are so supportive of neighbourhood policing that we have put an extra £1 billion into that fund this year. We are employing around an extra 3,000 neighbourhood police this year and will employ 13,000 more over the course of this Parliament.

Tackling Violence Against Women and Girls: Funding

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Baroness Butler-Sloss

Monday 28th April 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

It is extremely important that those who need that help and support get it. It is one reason why we have continued the work of the previous Government in funding a national helpline on violence against women and girls, which includes help and support for victims of honour-based violence as well. There are always improvements that can be made and, as part of the development of the strategy, we will be looking at what is most effective over those 10 years to ensure that we help and support victims, that we reduce the number of perpetrators and that those who have been convicted of perpetrating these offences are supported by the Ministry of Justice to turn their lives around when they come out of prison. The noble Baroness makes some valid points, but I hope she will examine the strategy in detail when it is published.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

Is the Home Office discussing with the Department for Education what sort of training is being given in schools, particularly to boys?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I will certainly look at that for the noble and learned Baroness. Again, I am accountable for this area, but the direct responsibility is with my colleague Jess Phillips. I will raise that with her to see what discussions are going on, but the noble and learned Baroness can rest assured that the strategy we are bringing forward on violence against women and girls is a cross-government strategy, to which all departments are contributing. I will examine the specific responsibilities of the DfE and get back to the noble and learned Baroness.

Immigration: Human Rights

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Baroness Butler-Sloss

Monday 13th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Roberts, for that question. He will know from previous discussions and debates on the issue of unaccompanied children that we have identified that around 90 children have gone missing. It is the priority of the Government to find out where they are. The prime responsibility for their safeguarding initially fell on Kent County Council. It is an important issue and one we need to address. As part of future considerations, we will continue to do that.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

When looking at refugees, could the Minister include victims of modern slavery with positive decisions and those who are victims of forced marriage? I declare an interest in the register.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The noble and learned Baroness makes an extremely important point. Victims of modern slavery should be central to any policy determination. This Government will support the efforts of the previous Government and the previous Home Secretary—who is now a Member of this House, the noble Baroness, Lady May of Maidenhead—who introduced what is now the Modern Slavery Act. We will ensure that those rights are upheld and that victims of modern slavery have that aspect of their lives taken into consideration when their asylum or refugee status is considered.

Police Officers: Recruitment

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Baroness Butler-Sloss

Tuesday 10th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether the Home Office is looking at police support staff as neighbourhood police, because they do not get moved every two years?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

It is important that we have stability. Very often, when I was a Member of Parliament, the police chief in the local area would be in post for two years and he or she would either retire or would be promoted and go up the ladder. We need to have some stability. Part of the purpose of neighbourhood policing is to try to get stability and local intelligence, including from police support staff on the ground.

Respect Orders and Anti-social Behaviour

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Baroness Butler-Sloss

Tuesday 3rd December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The noble Lord will be aware that the Government are undertaking a review of non-crime hate incidences. There are two aspects to this: a number of reports are made that are very low level and potentially waste police time, but there is also the importance of gathering intelligence. That goes back to the noble Baroness’s point: sometimes intelligence can be gathered through a non-crime hate incident that leads to a wider strategy to deal with a particular policing incident. My right honourable friend the Home Secretary has been clear that the College of Policing and the chief constables council need to review non-crime hate incidents to make sure that those at the lower level do not lead to police, with their limited resources, having to deal with issues that perhaps they should not be dealing with.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, in which type of courts will respect orders be heard? Whichever type it is, will additional days be provided, because every court is overburdened?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I expect these cases to be heard in magistrate’s courts, but again, those issues can be tested in Committee. The Bill will be considered in this House in Committee for a significant period, having been considered first by the House of Commons. That is why we are trialling respect orders, and we will put a number of pilots in place if the legislation is passed. The lessons learned from that will be considered —how long it takes to deal with a respect order, which court it goes to, the length of the trial period we put in place and what resources are required to deal with it.

Asylum Seekers: Hotel Accommodation

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Baroness Butler-Sloss

Monday 25th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I reassure my noble friend that the Government have a proud role in accepting people with legitimate asylum claims. The key question, which relates to the questions from both Opposition Front-Bench spokespeople, is about the speed and efficiency, and the prevention of illegal entry where there is no asylum claim. The Government will take that on board and I will certainly take away the point that my noble friend mentions. I will look at whether we have figures and facts on children being used and accommodated in that way. If she will let me, I will report back to her and place any letter in the Library of the House.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, what are the Government doing about getting rid of those who should not be here?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I can help the noble and learned Baroness on that point. Between 5 July and 28 October this year, which is the only time that I can account for as Minister, the Government have returned 9,400 people who have no right to be here. Of those 9,400 returned, 2,590 were enforced returns, which is a 19% increase on when the noble Lord, Lord Murray, held this post not 12 months ago.

Non-crime Hate Incidents

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Baroness Butler-Sloss

Tuesday 19th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I hope the noble Lord does not take this the wrong way, but I pay tribute to him for his work as chair of the College of Policing.

I have tried to say to the House that non-crime hate incidents are there to provide background information. They are not necessarily leading to prosecution or to crime, but the background information can be effective in building up a picture of potential areas where crime may well exist, because people will overstep the mark into criminal activity. We will try to look at that in the round, and as part of the review of police performance, that will be taken into account.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, following what the Minister has just said, why are children being investigated?