Oral Answers to Questions

Caroline Lucas Excerpts

Wednesday 25th March 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

First, let me pay tribute to my hon. Friend who has been a real champion for Brighton. He has campaigned so hard for the extra investment and the rebuilding of the hospital, and I am glad that the redevelopment of the Royal Sussex county hospital will take place. I also note that, in his constituency, the claimant count has gone down by 52% and the long-term youth claimant count by 50% since the last election. On that basis, I think that we can say that the sun will continue to shine on Brighton.

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

Q9. I agree with the Prime Minister that the sun shines on Brighton; it shines bright green on Brighton Pavilion. The Brighton Argus recently revealed that, in the space of a single month, nearly 1,700 trains between Brighton and London Victoria ran late, but, to add insult to injury, unfair train company rules meant that passengers could claim compensation on just 59 of those 1,700 journeys. Will he join me in backing The Argus newspaper campaign for a fairer compensation system that puts money back into passengers’ pockets?

[The Prime Minister]

I should have said in my previous answer that the only place in Brighton where the sun does not shine very brightly is where the local Green council is incapable of emptying people’s dustbins. We need a Tory gain there as well. But the hon. Lady is right to raise the case of rail compensation. We are looking closely at The Argus campaign and at what can be done to make the compensation scheme simpler and easier to deliver for people.

Oral Answers to Questions

Caroline Lucas Excerpts

Wednesday 11th March 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right to mention science. Of course, we ring-fenced the science budget during this Parliament because it is absolutely essential to building the modern manufacturing and advanced economy that we want to see. We can also see excellent initiatives such as the Newton fund, the Alan Turing institute and the Sir Henry Royce institute—all big investments in science in the next Parliament.

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

It has been estimated that entrenching market structures in the NHS, for example through tendering, bidding and contracting to the private sector, costs over £10 billion a year. Why does the Prime Minister not think that that money would be better spent on patient care?

[The Prime Minister]

What we have done is save money by cutting out bureaucracy, so we are seeing an extra £4.5 billion go into the NHS. If the hon. Lady is saying that there is no occasion at all when anyone from the independent, charitable or voluntary sectors can help in our NHS, I think that she is wrong. I think of the work that Macmillan cancer nurses and Marie Curie Cancer Care do, helping with the end of life. The idea that there is only one way to deliver health care in our brilliant NHS, which is expanding under this Government, is completely wrong.

Recall of MPs Bill

Caroline Lucas Excerpts

Monday 24th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education (Mr Sam Gyimah)]

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.

As you can tell, Madam Deputy Speaker, I am very keen for the Bill to be read a Third time. I will start by thanking my colleagues, the Minister of State, Cabinet Office, my right hon. Friend the Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark) and the Deputy Leader of the House, for the role they have played in the debates so far. I also thank Opposition Front Benchers—I can say this with confidence—for the constructive and non-partisan way in which they have approached the Bill.

I thank those who have tabled amendments, particularly my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith) for his principled arguments and the passionate way in which he and others have advanced their case. As on Second Reading, I reiterate my thanks to the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee for its pre-legislative scrutiny of the Bill.

The coalition’s programme for Government made a commitment to establishing a recall mechanism for MPs who have been found guilty of wrongdoing or misconduct. The Bill fulfils our coalition commitment to delivering a practical recall mechanism to hold MPs to account when they have done something wrong.

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

Does the Minister understand why so many of the people who are following this debate are so incredibly disappointed by the recall Bill we have ended up with? It is a sham and bogus, because essentially it means that most ordinary people are not going to be able to hold their MPs to account in the way that they expected.

[Mr Gyimah]

I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention. As I have said, the Bill delivers on our manifesto commitments. There was also a free vote on the amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park and, as the hon. Lady knows, they were heavily defeated.

Today’s Report stage has rightly given Parliament the opportunity to listen to and vote on a range of proposals to amend the Bill. It has been open to the House to make further amendments and they have been subject to free votes. This is a continuation of the approach the Government have taken throughout the Bill’s passage through this House. The purpose of the Bill remains to give the public their say on whether an MP who has been found guilty of serious wrongdoing should retain their seat in this House.

We considered in depth, both on Second Reading and in Committee, the option proposed by some hon. Members of implementing a recall system that would allow the recall of MPs on any grounds and at any time. However, we continue to believe that that approach would leave MPs vulnerable to constant challenge at the public’s expense, which is not compatible with our system of representative democracy. We believe that the principle of linking recall to wrongdoing strikes the right balance between holding MPs to account while making sure that they can do their job.

I will not reiterate the triggers for recall or the process by which a petition is run. I believe that the constructive way in which all contributors have approached the issue, whether during pre-legislative scrutiny or through the parliamentary debates, has resulted in a high-quality and in-depth discussion of the proposals, which I very much hope will continue as the Bill continues to be considered. I commend the Bill to the House.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

I rise to make a brief contribution, primarily to say that this Bill is a missed opportunity. It could have genuinely empowered people and I was very happy to support the amendments tabled by the hon. Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith), but instead we have a Bill that empowers Westminster.

Of more interest to me is the fact that this Bill could have given us the opportunity to empower the devolved Administrations to introduce their own recall mechanisms should they wish to do so. It is disappointing that my new clause 4 was deemed out of scope in Committee. It would have given powers over recall to the devolved Administrations. It would have been an empowering amendment, not a prescriptive one, that would have given power to the devolved Administrations to introduce whatever recall mechanism they wanted.

I had hoped that we would build some sort of political consensus on the issue. Prior to the Bill coming to the House, the Secretary of State for Wales told the Welsh Grand Committee:

“The recall of MPs Bill, which we will introduce later in the Session, will put in place a mechanism by which MPs can be recalled in certain circumstances, and I am exploring with the Presiding Officer whether such a mechanism is desirable in the Assembly.”—[Official Report, Welsh Grand Committee, 16 July 2014; c. 14.]

On Second Reading, I raised that exact point with the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Stephen Twigg), who said that,

“in principle, if this House has a reserve power, it should give it up so that it becomes a matter for the devolved bodies themselves to decide”.—[Official Report, 21 October 2014; Vol. 586, c. 786.]

I thought that that represented progress. Indeed, during that debate, the Minister of State, Cabinet Office, the right hon. Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark) seemed to indicate that he would be open to my proposals should there be a request for the powers from one of the devolved Administrations.

Alas, the Bill has not been strengthened to give the devolved Parliaments those powers. Plaid Cymru fully supports the principle of enabling the National Assembly to make those decisions. Indeed, we support devolving all powers over electoral arrangements. It is interesting to read some of the leaks from the Smith commission on Scotland, namely that electoral arrangements will be devolved fully to the Scottish Parliament. We will wait to hear what is announced on Thursday.

In Wales during the past few weeks, the leader of the Liberal Democrats in the Assembly, Kirsty Williams, called, with much fanfare, for powers over recall for the National Assembly. Indeed, she called for an open recall similar to that proposed by the amendments tabled by the hon. Member for Richmond Park. Unfortunately, however, it is obvious that she has not liaised with her colleagues in the UK Government, because the National Assembly for Wales has no power to introduce such a recall mechanism as it has not been included in this Bill. That is a further reflection of the disjointed way in which the Unionist parties work in Wales.

[Caroline Lucas]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the reluctance of other Members to adopt a genuine recall mechanism reveals their distrust of their own electors and that that speaks volumes?

[Jonathan Edwards]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for making that genuinely vital point. The Bill as drafted further empowers a Committee in Westminster to decide who should be recalled. It will further disfranchise people on the ground and reduce trust in Westminster—not that it is my job, of course, to try to encourage trust in Westminster.

In closing, I believe that this is a missed opportunity on two grounds. First, the Bill should have been used to genuinely empower people. Secondly, its scope should have been widened to enable the national Parliaments in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland to introduce their own recall mechanisms should they wish to do so.

Oral Answers to Questions

Caroline Lucas Excerpts

Wednesday 19th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I will look very carefully at what my hon. Friend says. First, I would like to send my deepest condolences, and those of the whole House, to Hollie’s family, following her brutal murder. I would also like to pay tribute to the Hollie Gazzard Trust, set up by her family, for its high-quality programme of classes aimed at educating young people about domestic abuse. What we have said is that sex education should always include relationship education as well, and that goes for all schools.

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

Q10. Rents are sky-high and house prices in Brighton rose 13% in the last quarter alone. Nurses’ wages were recommended to go up by 1% yet the Prime Minister’s Government are blocking even this tiny rise. How does he expect hospitals like the Royal Sussex to be able to recruit enough nurses if they simply cannot afford to live in the area?

[The Prime Minister]

First, we are making a huge investment in the Royal Sussex hospital and that will have its effect, but I have to say to the hon. Lady that she says house prices are rising and are unaffordable, but I have never come across a Green party politician who is in favour of building houses anywhere for anyone.

European Council

Caroline Lucas Excerpts

Monday 27th October 2014 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

Let me say to my right hon. and learned Friend that of course these changes happen every year—they are expected every year and discussed every year—but what has never happened before is a change on this scale, and no one was expecting that. As for the opt-out or opt-in on justice and human rights, it is very important to recognise that we have already achieved the biggest transfer of power from Brussels back to Britain by opting out of 100 different pieces of legislation. We now need to make sure that we keep our country safe.

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

A binding energy savings goal would have guaranteed €2.5 trillion in savings to consumers in the UK and across the EU, yet the UK opposed it. How can the Prime Minister pretend that this has anything to do with leadership when experts are claiming that it is a go-slow on efficiency? Far from being good for industry, it sends a strong signal to energy efficiency businesses to start to divest from the UK and from other European countries?

[The Prime Minister]

Respectfully, I disagree with the hon. Lady. We all want improvements in energy efficiency, and we are seeing them here in the United Kingdom. Having a proper market for carbon and a proper price for carbon helps that to happen. But it is not necessary to have additional binding targets for nation states as well as the target for reducing carbon emissions, because that skews the market and we end up spending more money than is otherwise necessary to get the outcome that both she and I want, which is to tackle climate change.

Recall of MPs Bill

Caroline Lucas Excerpts

Monday 27th October 2014 Commons Chamber

[Thomas Docherty]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, but I say very gently that he is seeking to amend the Government’s Bill and is then asking the Government to come up with suitable amendments to his amendments. That, I am afraid, is not how it works. Perhaps in a few months’ time he will be sitting on the Opposition Front Bench—we do not know what Boris will do—but he is not on the Front Bench at the moment. It is not for other people to come up with amendments that tidy up amendments tabled from the Back Benches.

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

rose—

[Thomas Docherty]

I will give way to the hon. Lady, because I have taken her name in vain on more than one occasion.

[Caroline Lucas]

The hon. Gentleman did take my name in vain and for the record I am very glad to be able to put him straight that I have never, ever knocked a helmet off anybody, much less a policeman. With respect, I think the arguments he is making are spurious. The amendments described by the hon. Member for Richmond Park are already in the Bill. Amendment 23 is also very helpful when it comes to regulating the amount of money we are talking about. Frankly, the idea that this is something cooked up by 38 Degrees is such an insulting suggestion. The hon. Member for Richmond Park and many more of us have been working on this issue for many, many years.

[Thomas Docherty]

I hope the hon. Lady will accept that I did not mean to imply that she had knocked off a policeman’s helmet. On her main point, I must say that simply working on something for a long time does not in itself solve the problem. I have been working for some time on trimming down but have not made enough progress; that does not mean I should simply stop and say it has been accomplished.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Members for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) and for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith). I want to speak principally to the amendments in my name and those of other hon. Members on both sides of the House who have been kind enough to add theirs—amendments 42, 43 and 44 and new clauses 6 and 7—but first I want to welcome the Bill, which delivers on a manifesto commitment from at least three of the parties represented in the House. The other parties must forgive me as I do not know whether it was in their manifestos.

[Caroline Lucas]

indicated assent.

[Mr Heath]

The hon. Lady nods her head.

I am pleased that our commitment is finally being honoured. In government, I was frustrated at the time it took to get something before the House, and I think it is an open secret that I would have preferred it to have gone slightly further than the Bill before us, but nevertheless it is exactly in line with what those parties said they wanted and what they put to the people. I hope, therefore, that we can get away from this false dichotomy between a real recall Bill and a bogus recall Bill. This is not a bogus recall Bill, but it is one that could be strengthened, and that is exactly what we should be focusing on.

I think we might need to look at the constitution of the Standards Committee. As a former member of the old Standards and Privileges Committee, I think there is scope for changing the membership of the Standards Committee, although I would make one caveat about the voting rights of members. That point was covered in a Green Paper on privilege that I produced as Minister but which I do not think anybody read, apart from—possibly—the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife. Either way, it was obviously minority reading, given that so many people since have commented from a position of sublime ignorance on the subject of privilege. Nevertheless, there are issues to consider and in principle I agree that we should reform the Committee.

We should not kid ourselves, however, that any Committee of the House will have the confidence of many members of the public. That is why I want a mechanism that provides the public with direct access to this process and which is not mediated by a custodial sentence or the decision of a Committee of the House. I am sorry but there is no way such a Committee could be seen as anything other than an old boys’ club. I winced slightly when I heard my constituency neighbour, the hon. Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg), who is not in his place, refer to the capacity of the House to expel Members. This is not a gentlemen’s club. Can we please get away from the Victorian idea that we make the rules and deal with things? Our electorate has a right to be engaged in this process.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Jones]

I have no doubt that what my hon. Friend says is correct, but I will explain in a minute why they would not have kept their seats if there had been recall, because a small and vociferous minority could have removed them.

[Caroline Lucas]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way on that point?

[Mr Jones]

No, as I want to make some progress first. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Richmond Park says “Absurd” from a sedentary position. He has had enough of a say, talking, I have to say, in some cases complete rubbish. He now has to sit there and listen to me.

In the debate on 21 October the hon. Gentleman, in trying to demonstrate that somehow his Bill would never be used, said:

“I know that other hon. Members worry that recall might somehow turn us into delegates and no longer representatives…but that is not realistic. Voters care about a wide range of issues, and it is rare for recall to be motivated only by one issue.”

I said from a sedentary position, “Gun control.” He then said,

“There are no examples of that.”—[Official Report, 21 October 2014; Vol. 586, c. 796.]

Well, I will turn to an example in a minute.

[Caroline Lucas]

I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way, but the frustration many of us in the Chamber are feeling is that he says on the one hand that a vociferous minority can remove an MP via recall, whereas it is a four stage process that precisely requires a majority in order to remove someone, so that is clearly not the case.

[Mr Jones]

I am not going to answer that point now, but I will answer it in a minute, and the hon. Lady is wrong in saying that the majority of the electorate in a constituency have to vote for this.

[Caroline Lucas]

Of the people who vote.

[Mr Jones]

Exactly; it is the people who vote, but I will come on to that in a moment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Jones]

Exactly, and I made that point last week. If I had the £250 million or £300 million the hon. Member for Richmond Park has, I would not have to worry. [Interruption.] Well, I am sorry, but it is a matter of fact. [Interruption.] Of family history, as my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) says. If someone has that amount of money, it influences the way in which they can conduct recall elections. If I had that amount of cash, I do not think I would be bothered even if I lost it.

[Caroline Lucas]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Jones]

I am going to answer the hon. Lady’s point if she is patient.

On the hon. Lady’s point about the electorate, the hon. Member for Richmond Park said it is necessary to have 51% of the electorate. No, it is not. In Colorado the recall election had a turnout of 36%, and under what is being proposed by the hon. Gentleman and his supporters it is only necessary to have 51% of the turnout. A small number of people might turn out, and a huge swathe of people in a constituency who might have strong views on other issues but not the issue in question might not be mobilised and might not vote. So to the idea that somehow this would be democratic, I say there could be a situation where there was a 60%, 65% or 70% turnout at a general election, and then a much lower turnout for a recall election—as low as 10% if police and crime commissioner elections are anything to go by—could determine the future of that Member of Parliament. It would take a very strong individual then to stand up before the electorate after the damage done in that process, because we all know what would happen with that individual.

The idea that somehow large numbers of people would give power to the mass of people is therefore complete nonsense. In the United States this gives power to large numbers of small groups of well-organised individuals. People should google the Koch brothers and the American Legislative Exchange Council—which is actually the libertarian wing of the Tea party and is where this proposal is coming from. I think this is very dangerous for progressive politics both in the United States and this country.

Iraq: Coalition Against ISIL

Caroline Lucas Excerpts

Friday 26th September 2014 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I will take more interventions, I promise, but I want to answer this question, which is whether it is necessary specifically for Britain to take part in this international action. Should we just leave it to others? I do not believe that is the right answer. The coalition needs our help, in particular with the vital work being done in terms of air strikes. Britain has unique assets that no other coalition ally can contribute: the Brimstone precision missile, which minimises the risk of civilian casualties and which even the United States does not have; we have our unique surveillance and intelligence capabilities; and we have our highly professional forces, which are well used to working with their US counterparts. These are some of the reasons why President Obama made it clear to me that America wants Britain to join the air action in Iraq, which has now been under way for several weeks.

I believe it is also our duty to take part. This international operation is about protecting our people too, and protecting the streets of Britain should not be a task that we are prepared to subcontract entirely to other air forces of other countries, so it is right for us to act.

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

Will the Prime Minister recognise that killing extremists does not kill their ideas? On the contrary—it can often feed their ideas, and for that reason the former MI6 head of counter-terrorism has said that getting Saudi Arabia and Iran around a negotiating table would be far more effective than bombing. Why are we not hearing far more from this Prime Minister about the political and diplomatic solutions to this situation, rather than reaching for the military solution, which could undermine them?

[The Prime Minister]

With respect to the hon. Lady, we are taking those diplomatic initiatives. My right hon. Friend the Defence Secretary has recently returned from Saudi Arabia; I am the first British Prime Minister in 35 years to meet an Iranian President. We need all those political and diplomatic moves to take place—they are absolutely vital—but in the end there is a part of this that requires a military solution. ISIL has to be defeated on the ground. That is principally the work of the Iraqi security forces, but we can play a role as well.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Arbuthnot]

rose—

[Caroline Lucas]

rose—

[Mr Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West) (Lab/Co-op)]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend is entirely right to say that we as a country played a role in that intervention. That allowed the space for the Kurdish authorities to find their own feet, metaphorically speaking, and to decide their own fate. The assistance we are giving in terms of lethal equipment, advice and training and the longstanding partnership we have with the Kurdish authorities will play an extraordinarily important role in Iraq, combined of course with the work that we must do with the Iraqi army to ensure that as we and other members of the coalition deliver air strikes—Denmark has just announced that it will be taking a similar route—the Kurdish authorities, the peshmerga and the Iraqi army will be able to push hard against ISIL on the ground.

[Caroline Lucas]

The language around air strikes sounds very clean and precise, but we know that in reality they are anything but. Does the Deputy Prime Minister genuinely believe that all other measures, political and diplomatic, with Saudi Arabia, with Iran, have properly been pursued before we go down the route of yet more bombing? Does he agree with those of us who think that the alternative to bombing is not doing nothing but making the redoubled diplomatic and political efforts that we need, which we have not seen? That should be at the centre of this debate.

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

Whilst I regret this, and everybody on both sides of the House may regret it, there are times when it is simply impossible to reason with your foe. There is no diplomatic initiative that would be recognised by ISIL. It is a barbaric, murderous outfit, which by its actions and its pronouncements has shown that it cannot be reasoned with.

As for the hon. Lady’s suggestion that this action is precipitate, I completely reject that. For week after week after week, great restraint has been shown, most especially by President Obama, who has been under considerable political pressure to act more precipitately. He has said, sensibly, as have we, “No; a coalition”—of what are now 60 nations—“must first be assembled. Countries from the region must play an active role”—as they are. “We need to receive a request from the Government itself—the Iraqi Government, a Muslim Government”—as we have done. “We must discuss this at NATO”—as we have done. “We must discuss this at the United Nations” —as we have done. I do not think that anyone could reasonably accuse this House, this Government or the international coalition of acting precipitately.

EU Council, Security and Middle East

Caroline Lucas Excerpts

Monday 1st September 2014 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

On my right hon. Friend’s first points, he is absolutely right to say that those are things we should pursue. I also believe we should publicise more the fact that ISIL makes a lot of money from selling oil to President Assad—that demonstrates the character of these people. On our engagement in the efforts that are being made, we have brought to bear diplomatic, political and other tools in our armoury. We have also used our military. They have been delivering aid in Iraq, and providing surveillance and other capabilities that are helping the Americans. We support the American air strikes; we think they are right. That has been our approach to date, and I think it is right, as I say, to keep asking the question: how can we, in Britain, best pursue our national interest—keeping our country safe—and help those people on the ground who are doing the most to combat ISIL?

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

The Prime Minister has pledged that we will stand up for our values, and I hope we will. So can he explain how it is compatible with our values, and indeed how it helps tackle Islamist extremism, to continue to sell arms to countries such as Saudi Arabia, which regularly beheads its own people and which is one of the most significant sources of funding to extremist groups worldwide?

[The Prime Minister]

We have some of the toughest rules on arms exports of any country anywhere in the world. Those rules are subject to the rule of law, and we have to make sure that they are. We would of course take a very different view on many of the domestic rules and regulations in Saudi Arabia, but I think it is true to say that the Saudi authorities have changed their approach on radicalisation around the world, and it is worth while that they do so.

Ukraine (Flight MH17) and Gaza

Caroline Lucas Excerpts

Monday 21st July 2014 Commons Chamber

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

The Prime Minister said that the most recent bloodshed in Gaza and Israel had started with the Hamas rocket attacks. I deplore those attacks, but does the Prime Minister not accept that they are not happening in a vacuum, but are a consequence of the ongoing Israeli occupation and siege of Gaza? Given that this is the latest in a long line of Israeli breaches of international law, does he recognise the growing movement that is calling for an embargo on all military co-operation with Israel?

[The Prime Minister]

I do not think that we should in any way seek to justify or explain away rocket attacks by Hamas on Israel. [Interruption.] That is, I am afraid, rather what it sounded like. We must be absolutely clear about the fact that we condemn those rocket attacks, and must make it clear that if they stopped there would be a ceasefire, and we could then make progress.

Oral Answers to Questions

Caroline Lucas Excerpts

Wednesday 25th June 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Last but not least, Caroline Lucas.

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

In my constituency, one-third of homes are in the private rented sector. Tenants are often ripped off and forced to move at a month’s notice, and the average rent for a two-bedroom home is £1,200 a month. Will the Prime Minister back my call for a living rent commission to explore ways of bringing rents back into line with the basic cost of living?

[The Prime Minister]

There is a debate shortly on the private rented sector and how we get more houses and more competitive rents. Of course we want more competitive rents, but looking at the policies of the hon. Lady’s party it seems as if it would never build any houses anywhere for anyone, and as a result rents would go up.