Carer’s Allowance

Beth Winter Excerpts

Monday 22nd April 2024 Westminster Hall

[Beth Winter (Cynon Valley) (Lab)]

It is an honour to serve under your chairship, Ms Elliott. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Neath (Christina Rees) for leading this important debate. It really is an important debate, which provides an opportunity to recognise the invaluable contribution that millions of unpaid carers provide to their loved ones, to our society and to our economy. It is also an opportunity to note the continued failure of the carer’s allowance system to provide recompense for that.

I speak in support of some of the policy demands of the representatives of unpaid carers, including those set out by Carers UK, and to ask the Minister whether the Government will now commit to meeting those demands. If it is the case that they cannot do so, the country and the carer community will be looking to the Labour Front Bench come the next election.

Carers UK says that across the UK there are over 10.6 million people providing unpaid care. They are increasingly vulnerable to falling into poverty and financial difficulties. We have already heard that at least a third of carers are living in poverty. Those doing the longest hours are more likely to be struggling to make ends meet. Forty- four per cent of working-age adults who are providing unpaid care for more than 35 hours a week are in poverty, according to Carers UK. It is estimated that the value of unpaid care provided by carers, as my hon. Friend the Member for Wirral West (Margaret Greenwood) indicated, is £162 billion per year in England and Wales. The ONS estimated that in my constituency there are over 10,000 carers providing 19 hours or less unpaid care—

--- Later in debate ---

[Julie Elliott (in the Chair)]

Order. The debate may now continue until 7.55 pm, although that depends on there being no more votes, of course. I call Beth Winter to continue.

[Beth Winter]

Like many other Members here, I have lots of constituents who are carers and come to me for assistance. One constituent has been a carer for his wife for more than 40 years following her diagnosis of schizophrenia. He is now a pensioner with a low income, but that impacts significantly on his entitlement to carer’s allowance. Another constituent who cares for her grandfather had her carer’s allowance revoked, before we intervened, for exceeding the income threshold during a period of financial difficulty and mental health impact. The DWP confirmed that a payment should not have stopped and she received over £1,000 back. There is the issue of overpayment, but I also worry about how many carers may be being underpaid significantly without accessing support or advice. There is also a large proportion of people who do not claim the benefits that they are entitled to.

Only 71% of carer’s allowance claimants in 2023 were receiving a payment, and the remaining approximately 400,000 claimants met the conditions set out above but were not receiving the benefit due to the overlapping benefits rule—including nearly all pensioner carers, which hon. Members spoke about earlier. The e-petition asks that carer’s allowance be raised to the rate of 35 hours per week at the level of the national minimum wage. That would equate to £400 per week. The Government’s response says that carer’s allowance is

“a benefit that provides some financial recognition that a carer may not be able to work full-time.”

But should someone earn more than £151 per week, they lose all access to carer’s allowance; that is the cliff edge situation that others have mentioned today. That £151 is only around 13 hours of work at the adult national minimum wage, and the number of minimum wage hours that can be worked before hitting the threshold has declined in recent years. That is completely inadequate and unacceptable, and it is in need of urgent reform. That is why the Government must commit to improving the carer’s allowance.

I have previously spoken in the House about the Work and Pensions Committee’s call for an increased earnings limit and the introduction of a taper. Here today is the Chair of that Committee, my right hon. Friend the Member for East Ham (Sir Stephen Timms), who has spoken about the issue in much more detail. I have also said that the uprating of the carer’s allowance needs to be synchronised with the real living wage.

Carers UK has set out a number of demands ahead of the election. It calls for an increase in the earnings limit for carer’s allowance to the value of 21 hours per week at the national living wage rate and for that link to be defined in law, so that the ability of carers to earn is not eroded over time. That would take the earnings threshold to £240 from the current £151. It also calls for reform to the eligibility rules for the carer’s allowance, including ending the cliff edge, giving access to a tapered rate for those working more hours each week, enabling more than one person to receive the benefit if multiple people care for the same person, and extending the run-on payments for bereaved carers from eight to 12 weeks. Most importantly, Carers UK urges the Government to carry out a full review of the link between caring and poverty across the UK and to commission an independent inquiry to explore longer-term solutions to bringing more unpaid carers out of poverty.

The Carer Poverty Coalition says the carer’s allowance itself should be increased and I think that is vital, having spoken to many carers in my constituency. The current rate is undoubtedly a poverty payment, and the earnings threshold cliff edge makes a mockery of social justice. The reality is that many carers work full time as a carer and the state refuses to recognise that financial benefit to society, as well as the invaluable contribution that carers make. The idea of earning a minimum wage for a full-time job has long been accepted, and we should do the same for those people caring.

I want to comment more generally on the demonisation of people who receive social security benefits, which are an entitlement and a right. More recently, that demonisation was demonstrated by the Prime Minister’s comments about a “sick note culture”, which were dangerous and absolutely disgraceful and will do nothing except exacerbate the hardship that people experience. The demonisation and stigmatisation of claimants, including millions of carers, must stop. As an example, in my constituency of Cynon Valley, we have high rates of social security claimants, including people in receipt of carer’s allowance. [Interruption.]

[Julie Elliott (in the Chair)]

Order. There is another Division. We will suspend for 15 minutes.

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[Judith Cummins (in the Chair)]

The sitting is resumed, and the debate can now continue until 8.20 pm. I call Beth Winter to continue.

[Beth Winter]

I have spoken about carer’s allowance being a poverty payment in need of fundamental reform. I want to conclude with a few general comments about social security and carers’ benefits and assistance. First, the demonisation of people in receipt of social security benefits, which are an entitlement, should stop. Only last week, we had Sunak talking about a “sick note culture”—language that is inflammatory, disgraceful and very dangerous. It will only exacerbate people’s hardship.

In Cynon Valley, high numbers of people are on social security benefits, including carer’s allowance. That is due to our industrial legacy—dirty work, with people inheriting significant ill health associated with the industry that they worked in. With the decimation of the industries, we have high rates of unemployment. Again, that has been compounded by the cost of living crisis, which is a political choice.

We need structural and transformational change when it comes to carers. We must ensure that everybody, regardless of their circumstances, is treated with respect and dignity, and that they receive the support they are entitled to. That should include a new national carers’ strategy. Apparently, we have not had a new one for 16 years, which I find quite shocking. Also, we could include being a carer as a protected characteristic under the Equality Act 2010, enhance flexible working and introduce a statutory right to breaks for people with caring responsibilities. In addition, we should ensure that social care receives sustainable and adequate funding, and that there is a joined-up approach between health and social care so that social care stops being seen as the weak relation in many regards.

Sustainable funding would ensure that people—both the carer themselves and the person receiving the care—could receive respite care and other support services. We should also explore things such as the minimum income guarantee and universal basic income. Without a doubt, however, the overwhelming evidence shows that, as a starting-point, carer’s allowance is in need of fundamental reform. Diolch yn fawr.

Women’s State Pension Age

Beth Winter Excerpts

Monday 25th March 2024 Commons Chamber

[Mel Stride]

As my hon. Friend points out, the timing is important. I have made the commitment that we will proceed without undue delay.

[Beth Winter (Cynon Valley) (Lab)]

Millions of women have suffered an injustice, including more than 200,000 in Wales and 4,000 in my constituency of Cynon Valley. While much of the ombudsman’s report is welcome, the compensation remedy is insufficient—indeed, it is insulting. In 2019, the Labour party pledged an average payment of £15,500. It is affordable, and the Government have saved in the region of £200 billion since the equalisation of the state pension age, yet they still have not pledged anything at all. Will the Minister please set a specific timeline so that we can have an urgent parliamentary process for MPs to set a compensation scheme that will give fair, appropriate and fast compensation to these women?

[Mel Stride]

On the timing, I have now given this reply from the Dispatch Box on several occasions: there will be no undue delay. On the specific matter that the hon. Lady raises relating to remedy, that is one of the findings within the report that, along with all the others, we will of course consider very carefully.

State Pension Changes: Women

Beth Winter Excerpts

Tuesday 12th March 2024 Westminster Hall

[Beth Winter (Cynon Valley) (Lab)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) on securing this debate, and for his tireless work on the campaign. I also pay tribute to the WASPI organisation for its campaigning efforts across Britain. Over 4,000 constituents in Cynon Valley are affected, and I am currently working with an active group of women campaigning for justice for WASPI women.

In July 2021, the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman’s stage 1 report found clear maladministration in the way the DWP communicated state pension age changes. The DWP has still never publicly accepted that finding. The release of the final pages of the stage 2 report will make findings about the impact of the DWP’s maladministration, and the stage 3 report will make recommendations on compensation. We have heard that both are expected in the coming weeks, and I echo colleagues’ comments for the Minister to give us an update, and a specific date on which the announcement will be made.

In January 2024, the Daily Mirror reported that 260,000 WASPI women had died since the start of the campaign back in 2015. I have heard some harrowing stories of women’s experiences, as I am sure everyone in the Chamber today has. People have even lost their houses because of the situation; there have been tragic cases. People have been plunged into poverty through no fault of their own, and have felt abandoned given the length of time the investigation has taken. That is why we desperately need action now.

I have supported, and continue to support, the case for full restitution, because that is in principle the right demand. I also welcome and support the WASPI calls for a one-off payment from the Government as fair and fast compensation. We must compensate these women, ideally at the ombudsman level 6 band of financial remedy—and the more, the better. Ideally it should be full restitution. I also welcome serious demands, such as those from the all-party parliamentary group for state pension inequality for women, and the State Pension Age (Compensation) Bill tabled by the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Alan Brown).

The Treasury saved over £200 billion through the changes that have been made to women’s state pensions. It is yet another example of horrific injustice, alongside the Post Office scandal, Hillsborough, and the contaminated blood inquiry. Time is of the essence. To reflect the comments of the hon. Member for Glasgow South West (Chris Stephens) earlier, justice delayed is justice denied. Please, can the Minister indicate a hard deadline for the awarding of compensation payments? Will the women receive the money before the general election? The women have waited far too long, and too many families have seen them pass on without compensation. We must deliver now.

Autumn Statement Resolutions

Beth Winter Excerpts

Monday 27th November 2023 Commons Chamber

[Beth Winter (Cynon Valley) (Lab)]

Diolch yn fawr, Madam Deputy Speaker. In response to the statement last week, Mark Drakeford, the Welsh First Minister, said that

“we urgently needed long-term investment in our public services and growth in our economy”.

He was right. This statement delivers some of the last gasps of the Tory Government. As has already been said, the Chancellor talked about growth, but the OBR has revised down its growth estimate. The Chancellor also talked about cutting inflation, but again the OBR says it will remain higher for longer.

Growth is stalling because investment is falling. We need to generate an even more ambitious proposal for public investment. With departmental budgets losing value across the board thanks to inflation, our public services are being decimated. The OBR has identified this period as

“the largest reduction in real living standards since ONS records began”.

This autumn statement means that the people living through a cost of living crisis will continue to struggle and suffer: 14 million people living in poverty, including 4 million children, 10 million people going hungry and 6 million people living in fuel poverty. It is shameful that in the fifth-richest nation in the world there are so many millions of people suffering.

On welfare reform, I have, like others, been inundated with constituents who are struggling because of the inadequacies of the current social security system. One lady said that her family found the assessment and reassessment processes complicated, intrusive, degrading and unfair. The family are appealing a decision to refuse a renewal application, and the entire experience has caused extreme stress, anxiety and financial hardship. That is just one example of people failed by a process that is completely not fit for purpose, and the further conditions and sanctions announced will make it far worse. As someone who worked for many years in welfare benefits advice, I can assure hon. Members that nobody chooses not to work—and shame on those on the Government side who made comments to that effect. It is simply not the case.

On public services, as my old council leader, Andrew Morgan, said last week, local services in south Wales are “on their knees”, as they are elsewhere throughout the country. Local authorities are struggling with falling revenue and the inability to provide vital services, and we are seeing increasing community agitation against service cuts during the worst cost of living crisis in living memory. Those cuts are the responsibility solely of this Tory Government.

In my Cynon Valley constituency and the area served by Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council, there are protests against food price rises and council service closures and outsourcing. People are seeking alternative answers and models for increasingly difficult questions. People in our community, I am pleased to say, want to look at alternatives such as community wealth building, by which we would generate and retain wealth within our own community—it is called cymunedoli, or communitisation. I assure the House that I will continue to work alongside constituents to organise for the change that we need.

Wealth generated in Wales has been extracted from our country since the industrial revolution, so I will continue challenging the dogmatic neoliberal economic approach taken by this Tory Government. Sadly for Wales, the purse strings remain here in Westminster, and Wales is still being exploited. The UK has failed to fund making coal tips safe, has failed to fund our HS2 consequentials, and has failed in the levelling-up agenda. We need a proper, fair, needs-based settlement for Wales. Across the UK, we need public investment, decent public services and pay restoration for public servants, and we need to scrap sanctions on social security. We must stop investing in fossil fuels; otherwise, we will accelerate the climate catastrophe. We need to increase Treasury revenue to fund that change through progressive wealth taxes, including inheritance, land and property taxes.

In my home of Cynon valley and the south Wales valley, we have a strong history of being at the forefront of change and of working-class organisation and struggle. We are organising again, and we demand to be treated fairly and with respect. We can, and we will, deliver change for our communities. We deserve better, and our future generations deserve a future.

Two-child Benefit Cap and Child Poverty

Beth Winter Excerpts

Tuesday 11th July 2023 Westminster Hall

[Kim Johnson]

I do not know why the Government are punishing children and forcing them into poverty. It is a crying shame.

These families are disproportionately affected by increases in the cost of living and, as has just been mentioned, are treated punitively by the benefits system. Some 1.3 million children across the country are currently losing out under the cap, with their families losing on average £3,235 directly out of their pockets. With new stats due on Thursday 13 July, the Child Poverty Action Group and Save the Children predict the number will rise to 1.5 million.

[Beth Winter (Cynon Valley) (Lab)]

CPAG has estimated that over 4 million children live in poverty, and that figure is due to rise. More than 5,000 children in my constituency—a third of the children living there—live in poverty. The Welsh Government are currently consulting on their draft child poverty strategy 2023 and there is a big debate in Wales about how we tackle not only child poverty but poverty more widely. Wales is very clear, as Minister for Social Justice Jane Hutt has said, that the two-child limit must be scrapped. Is it not right, and time, that the UK Government listened to the devolved nations and did just that?

[Kim Johnson]

I thank my hon. Friend for the intervention and the Welsh Government for rolling out universal free school meals, and I support her and the Welsh Government in saying we need to end the two-child cap.

Does the Minister really believe it is acceptable for children to suffer more just because of the number of siblings they have? The two-child cap on benefit payments is cruel and ineffective. Larger families are punished, leaving them struggling. A majority—some 55%—of the families affected by the policy are already in work. Black and ethnic minority families and single-parent families are disproportionately impacted, as well as families who rent. The two-child limit creates a huge hole in budgets that simply cannot be plugged by working additional hours. The Government claim that the policy helps to push parents back into work, but after six years, they still cannot provide a single shred of evidence that that is actually the case. The truth is that the policy does nothing to remove barriers, and research from the University of York shows that in some cases, the cap is counterproductive in helping parents back to work.

Oral Answers to Questions

Beth Winter Excerpts

Monday 6th March 2023 Commons Chamber

[Guy Opperman]

Yes.

[Beth Winter (Cynon Valley) (Lab)]

16 . What assessment he has made of the state of industrial relations within his Department.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mel Stride)]

Constructive discussions take place with the Public and Commercial Services Union, FDA and Prospect unions on a range of topics, as is set out in our employee relations handbook. The PCS and Prospect unions are in dispute with the Department for Work and Pensions, along with a number of other Departments, about various issues. As ever, we will remain positively engaged.

[Beth Winter]

Is the Secretary of State aware that more than a quarter of DWP staff are paid so little that the national living wage floor increase this April will lift their salaries? Is he aware that thousands of civil servants forced to take strike action are going without food and having to use foodbanks? Will he commit to constructive talks with the PCS union to resolve the dispute, to put a real pay rise on the table and to make ending the scourge of low pay in his Department a priority?

Labour Market Activity

Beth Winter Excerpts

Tuesday 28th February 2023 Commons Chamber

[Jonathan Ashworth]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for that. I will outline a very detailed plan in my remarks. I hope it finds favour with him, because we want to grow our economy, as he does, and getting people back to work is good for them as individuals, it will make our economy more productive, it will sustainably raise living standards—not by going for growth through inflation—and getting people back to work is surely a good thing. I hope he stays in the Chamber, as I am sure he will, to listen to my speech.

The Government say that they gave us kickstart, but it failed to deliver the 250,000 jobs for young people promised. They say that they gave us restart, but it is expected to help less than half the number of people that Ministers said it would, and it is underspent by around £900 million. However, my argument is not simply that the Minister is doing nothing. It is also that what the Government do do, they do not do very well.

The Local Government Association estimated that the Government—I think that this is last year’s figure—spent £20 billion to deliver 49 different employment and skills-related schemes administered by nine different Government Departments and agencies and, yet, despite all that money, these organisational geniuses have still given us a situation where we have 1 million vacancies, 3 million workless, and the worst employment recovery in the G7. That is surely not good enough for £20 billion-worth of expenditure.

What has been the Government’s answer? It is more of the same. They brief newspapers there will be more daily interviews for the three-month unemployed in the intensive work search group, even though the failure-to-attend rate for weekly appointments is already high. It will no doubt mean more CV writing classes, more applying for jobs online that turn out to be duplications and, of course, more sanctions. Of course there should be conditions applied to unemployment—[Interruption.] We have always been in favour of conditions for unemployment benefit—as many of these hon. Members will find out when they go to the jobcentre after the next general election—but what we need for this country is a plan that widens access to employment support for all who want to work, that brings together health and employment support, that addresses the cost and disincentives of moving into work for parents with childcare needs, for example, and that takes account of the different economic needs of the country.

[Beth Winter (Cynon Valley) (Lab)]

My constituency of Cynon Valley has some of the highest levels of economic inactivity in Wales and, indeed, the UK. I welcome Labour’s proposals to fix this broken employment support model. Indeed, I am pleased that, in Cynon Valley, we are piloting some innovative economic models under the community wealth building approach. However, turning to the UK Government, is my right hon. Friend at all concerned about the pilot announced in a written statement yesterday, requiring claimants to attend face-to-face interviews daily for a fortnight, with a threat of sanctions for non-attendance? Is that not a model to discourage claims? Is he also concerned that, following the closure of many jobcentres, jobcentre workers, who are themselves accessing food banks, are now being forced to require claimants to undertake these interviews and to make life-impacting decisions based on economic benefit?

[Jonathan Ashworth]

The problem is that the Government are one-trick ponies. They think that that is the answer to getting people back to work, but what we need is a plan to deal with the economically inactive, not just to apply conditions for those receiving unemployment-related benefit on universal credit.

Different parts of the country face different economic needs. In broad-brush terms, in coastal and some former industrial areas, we tend to see lower labour market participation rates and relatively fewer vacancies. In many parts of London and the south-east, we tend to see higher labour market participation, but also relatively fewer vacancies. In major cities such as Birmingham, Leicester, Coventry and Liverpool, we tend to see lower labour market participation, but often higher vacancies. The point is that different economies have different economic needs. Different labour markets have different economic needs. Instead of nationally contracting to deliver one-size-fits-all employment schemes designed from behind a desk in Caxton House, and instead of forcing Mayors—in the words of Andy Street—to go with a “begging bowl” to Whitehall, we should shift power and resources to local communities because, as the leader of Nottingham County Council, the hon. Member for Mansfield (Ben Bradley), said in a very good Red Box article a few weeks ago:

“Local leaders are too often hampered by the Whitehall knows best approach…Employment support programmes are commissioned based on national guidelines, not local needs…Fixing economic inactivity needs a radical pro-devolution mindset.”

I absolutely agree with him.

Benefit Sanctions

Beth Winter Excerpts

Tuesday 13th December 2022 Westminster Hall

[Beth Winter (Cynon Valley) (Lab)]

I, too, congratulate the hon. Member for Glasgow South West (Chris Stephens) on securing this important debate and on all the amazing work he does on this issue. As we know, inflation is at a 40-year high, energy bills are rising, real wages have fallen for the last 13 months, the number of people living in deep poverty is increasing and we are living through a cost of living emergency. It is in that context that sanctions are being applied to people in receipt of social security benefits.

I have to start by reiterating the points made by my hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Grahame Morris). Sanctions are by their nature punitive, but continuing to operate them in such an aggressive manner in the worst cost of living crisis for a generation is actively harmful to the individuals who suffer, as my hon. Friend illustrated with horrific examples of people who have lost their lives as a result, but also to the wider economy and society. The scale of sanctions is totally unacceptable. They simply drive people into far greater debt and greater poverty, and punish people for things that are no fault of their own. People are in these situations because they may have lost their job or fallen on difficult times, and they are being punished for that. We should be supporting people in those circumstances.

It is little wonder that the Public Law Project has said that sanctions “do not work” and has referred to them as “a presumption of guilt”, or that the Welfare Conditionality project has found:

“Benefit sanctions do little to enhance people’s motivation to prepare for, seek, or enter paid work. They routinely trigger profoundly negative personal, financial, health and behavioural outcomes”.

Yet despite the overwhelming evidence that sanctions do not work, the DWP is using them more and more. Statistics from November show that more than 320,000 adverse sanctions decisions were made across the UK this year alone, up to July. The number of people subject to sanctions continues to grow. In August 2022, 115,000 people—6.5% of all recipients—were subject to them in one month. We can compare that with August 2021, when the figure was only 18,000. Like my right hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell), I would be particularly interested to hear the Minister explain why there has been such an astronomical increase in the use of sanctions. Why that has happened is just beyond me.

The latest sanctions were worth, on average, £262 a month. That is nearly a third of the average UC payment. This is a full-frontal attack on universal credit recipients that must end.

In my opinion, the Government should end completely the sanctions regime, especially during this inflation and cost of living crisis, just as they did during the covid pandemic. They need to conduct a review of the impact on poverty, ill health and employment. They can also look to improve the application of easements and allow decision makers to cancel sanctions—the list goes on of measures that the Government could and should introduce.

I want to take this opportunity to say something about the deductions that are taken from almost 2.1 million claimants to repay debts. I recently submitted a written question on the issue to the DWP, which responded that 3,300 universal credit recipients in my constituency of Cynon Valley are subject to deductions for debts and overpayments. That is 52% of all recipients. A majority of those who use universal credit as a lifeline are having some taken away. People cannot afford those deductions. I back campaigners’ calls to convert them into grants or to write off the debts completely, which would be a much better solution. The Government must seriously consider those proposals, and at least adopt the Work and Pensions Committee’s recommendation that debt repayments be paused.

From the contributions today and the overwhelming evidence, it is clear that the sanctions system is ineffectual and extremely cruel to the most vulnerable people in our society, whom we should be supporting and helping. Prior to entering this place, I worked for many years as an advice worker, and I worked with lots of people who were suffering from homelessness. I also volunteered in a food bank. The number of people who had to access the service because their benefits had been stopped was unbelievable. They were people who were in work or who were suffering mental health problems. There were families. A gentleman who came in with his three children had been unable to attend his benefits appointment because one of his children was ill; he was sanctioned for two weeks. In the 21st century, that is absolutely appalling. It beggars belief.

The use of decision makers who are not known to the individuals being sanctioned is completely inhumane. I worked with a lot of older people who are digitally excluded and unable to navigate the system. People are penalised because they are excluded from a system that is, quite frankly, designed to prevent people from accessing an entitlement. That is what benefits are: they are an entitlement that people should be allowed to access.

The sanctions system completely fails to achieve its stated objective, which is to encourage compliance and people’s return to employment. It has the opposite effect, and I talk from experience: it alienates, unfairly punishes and stigmatises people. All of that has a serious detrimental impact on people’s health and wellbeing. Instead of punishing people, the Government should overhaul the social security system, so that it provides people with an adequate payment that prevents poverty—rather than pushing people into poverty, as the current system does—encourages and enables people to find employment, and treats people with dignity. The current system does not treat people with dignity.

Other measures might include the reinstatement of the £20 UC uplift and its extension to those on legacy benefits, the ending of the five-week waiting period and the removal of the two-child limit. Lots of changes could and should be made to the social security benefit system. With 40% of UC claimants in work, it is clear that wages in this country are insufficient, which is why I and many others here support the campaign for a £15 minimum wage.

The crisis that the Government’s approach is causing is the reason for the increasing calls in Wales, for instance from the Bevan Foundation, for a Welsh benefits system. The Welsh Affairs Committee has said that the Government should assess the merits of devolving the administration of benefits to Wales, as happened in Scotland. In yesterday’s Westminster Hall debate on pensions, I said that £1.7 billion of pension credit is unclaimed. The figure for unclaimed means-tested benefits is £15 billion. Some 7 million people in this country are not claiming what they are entitled to. I really wish the Government would spend more time ensuring that those people who are not claiming get what they are entitled to than punishing people in dire straits.

There are many problems with the Government’s approach, but very little interest in a solution. I would be interested to hear from the Minister why there has been such a significant increase in sanctions and what evidence the Government have that they work. All the evidence that I have seen is to the contrary. Can the Minister respond on the suspension of punitive sanctions, debt and overpayment deductions, the role of the decision maker and the question of devolution in Wales? Let me finish by congratulating again the hon. Member for Glasgow South West on securing this debate. I fear that we will revisit this issue if things do not change.

State Pension

Beth Winter Excerpts

Monday 12th December 2022 Westminster Hall

[Beth Winter (Cynon Valley) (Lab)]

Thank you, Sir Robert, for the opportunity to speak. Before I became an MP, I conducted more than 10 years of research on how poverty and inequality affect older people’s inclusion in society, so this subject is a particular interest of mine.

Pensioner poverty is significant in the UK, and it continues to increase. It is estimated that over 2 million—one in five—older people are living in relative poverty, with the greatest impact on women and other vulnerable groups. The level of pensioner poverty is similar in my country, Wales. The Older People’s Commissioner for Wales—I am very proud that Wales is still, I think, the only nation in the UK to have an older people’s commissioner—along with other organisations, has expressed serious concern about the detrimental impact that the cost of living is having on older people. My constituency had the third highest death rate from covid in the whole of the United Kingdom. That exemplifies the effect that poverty and the industrial legacy of Cynon Valley have on the health and wellbeing of older people.

Just before the summer, I conducted a cost of living survey in Cynon Valley. Nearly nine out of 10 pensioners who responded said that they felt worse off than they did 12 months earlier. Security in retirement was the biggest cause for concern among pensioners. One older person said:

“Us elderly people have worked very hard over the years and we get very little back to survive on.”

I pay tribute to a range of organisations in Wales, including Age Cymru and Age Connects in Cynon Valley, who are doing amazing work with older people, trying to empower them and giving them a voice in our communities.

The petition calls for an increase in the state pension to £380 a week and a reduction in the state pension age to 60, which would be a significant change. However, the demands of the petition open up a debate on where pension levels are set and what is the right age to start receiving the state pension.

At the 2019 election, my right hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell), the then shadow Chancellor, rightly sought to deal with state pension inequality for women and offered a major compensation scheme. He said:

“This is an entitlement. This is not a benefit…This is a historic injustice. We have to address it.”

Over 4,000 women in my constituency are affected, and I am working closely with an active group of local women to continue campaigning for justice for the WASPI women. I have continued to support their demand for compensation, through demands for full restitution and through the minimum compensation proposal of the WASPI campaign and the all-party parliamentary group on state pension inequality for women. As we know, the ombudsman has found that there was maladministration, and we are now waiting for the full report to be published and for the recommendations for remedy. We must compensate these women.

The other group of older people I am working closely with in Cynon Valley are former miners. I welcomed the Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy Committee report in 2021, which recommended giving £1.2 billion held in the investment reserve to former miners. It really is regrettable that the Government have rejected the Committee’s recommendations, and I urge them to look at those again. The WASPI women and former mineworkers are examples of pensioners who have been let down—and let down massively—by the UK Government.

More broadly, there is a debate around the level of the state pension. Much is being said about how pensioners’ incomes have been safeguarded, compared with real changes to incomes and social security in recent years. However, pensioner poverty is growing, and the petition demands a significant increase in the state pension. The National Pensioners Convention says that the state pension should be set at 70% of the living wage and above the official poverty level, at £242.55 a week. That is what a pensioner in the Netherlands gets, with an equivalent of more than £250 a week. The petition demands £380 a week, and in Denmark the folkepension for a single pensioner is £370 a week. This can and should be done here. These other countries’ pensions put the demands of the NPC and this petition into perspective—they are not unreasonable demands.

The question about funding these increases is welcome. There are many sources of untaxed wealth that could deliver the revenues to pay for higher pensions. A wealth tax could raise in the region of £260 billion to £300 billion. The country has the money; it is a political choice not to redistribute the wealth of this country to ensure that older people and many millions of other vulnerable people have the money to maintain a basic standard of living. That is a basic human right, and everybody should have that entitlement.

Before I conclude, I will take the opportunity to highlight the fact that a third of those entitled to pension credit—over 750,000 people—do not claim it, although they are entitled to. As my hon. Friend the Member for Battersea (Marsha De Cordova) said, that equates to about £1.7 billion of unclaimed money. I urge the UK Government urgently to take action on this issue. I truly wish that they would pay as much attention to ensuring that people claim what they are entitled as they do to stigmatising people on social security benefits, who are entitled to that money and should have it as a matter of right.

To conclude, pensioner poverty is rising. Combatting it is a question of principle and values. If we are to achieve justice for pensioners, we must take action to deliver it.

[Sir Robert Syms (in the Chair)]

We now move to the Front Benchers, who normally have 10 minutes or less.

Universal Basic Income

Beth Winter Excerpts

Wednesday 15th June 2022 Westminster Hall

[Beth Winter (Cynon Valley) (Lab)]

Thank you, Ms McVey. The actions of this Government are really hammering working people and the working class, and are driving more and more people into poverty. People’s incomes and living standards are under attack on many fronts, as we face the worst cost of living crisis in living memory.

The Government have imposed cut after cut to social security benefits, and increased benefits by only a paltry 3.1% in April, though inflation stands at 10%. We have seen freeze after freeze of public sector pay. We clapped for our key workers—be they care workers, Government workers or NHS workers—throughout lockdown, but they have not been rewarded. There is a debate in the main Chamber about the National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers, who have been forced to strike next week because their reasonable demands for better pay and terms and conditions have fallen on deaf ears. On pensions, the Tory Government have broken the triple lock.

All that has had a devastating impact on far too many people. Some 14.5 million people live in poverty. That includes the 4.3 million children who live in relative poverty—nine in every classroom of 30 children—and the 10 million people who use food banks. We should be angry that we, the fifth richest nation on the planet, have allowed this situation to arise and become normalised. That is a political choice.

There are alternatives, however, and universal basic income is one of them. We must do everything we can to achieve a fairer and more resilient society as we come out of the pandemic. A vital part of that is replacing our dysfunctional benefits system with one that provides financial security for everyone. UBI—an unconditional and regular cash payment to everybody, regardless of their income—is gaining significant traction as a solution to many of those issues. It is underpinned by the principle of universality, which I endorse. It would provide everyone with enough to cover the basic cost of living, and would ensure that financial security was a basic human right.

Universal basic income has lots of merits. It enables us to ensure that people’s human right to an appropriate amount of money to live on is met; it overcomes the negative features of means testing, particularly the stigma associated with claiming social security benefits; it is simple, unlike the current complex welfare system; and it would stimulate demand in the economy by putting money in people’s pockets.

I am particularly proud of the universal basic income campaign in my country of Wales. That grassroots, bottom-up campaign, led by a gentleman called Jonathan Williams of UBI Lab Wales, has been successful in getting constituency Labour parties, local authorities and Assembly Members to sign pledges in support of universal basic income, and it has also participated in various groups here in Parliament.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

I apologise for my late arrival to the debate; I was detained elsewhere. Does the hon. Lady welcome, as I do, the small-scale pilot scheme that is being run by the Welsh Government? It will target money at 250 care leavers, who are a particularly vulnerable group. I look forward to the results of that pilot. However, it will take three years, and I am sure that she will agree that we need something larger scale, very quickly.

[Beth Winter]

I do agree, and thank the hon. Member for that intervention. I will come on to the universal basic income pilot scheme that the Welsh Government are introducing in the next few weeks. Mark Drakeford, the First Minister of Wales, is a strong proponent of universal basic income, and it is part of the radical and more progressive policies, particularly when compared to those of the UK Government, being pursued by the Welsh Government. It forms part of a co-operation agreement between the Labour party and Plaid Cymru that I fully support. The pilot is as ambitious as can be expected, given the financial constraints placed on the Welsh Government by the UK Government; the financial settlement is decided by the Barnett formula. From what I understand, attempts by the Welsh Government to discuss potential assistance from the UK Government fell on deaf ears.

I welcome the pilot, which gives care leavers £1,600 per month. That amount is significantly higher than the amount in any other basic income pilot globally. It is broadly equivalent to the real living wage. There is a comprehensive methodology associated with that, and there will be a very robust evaluation process. Michael Marmot is one of the advisers, as is Guy Standing, who is world-renowned on UBI. The pilot has a technical advisory panel. It is a very well thought-out process that goes as far as it can. Even I would admit that it has some limitations, but it is trying to look at progressive, radical and alternative ways of supporting people.

Any pilot or roll out of UBI must form part of a much broader transformative agenda. We need a benefits system that ensures that everyone has equal access to a safety net that will ensure that they can meet their needs, and we need a progressive tax system. I propose the reinstatement of the £20 universal credit uplift, and that benefits and wages be inflation-proofed. I am a proponent of the wealth tax. UBI must form part of a more transformative agenda. I will continue to work alongside colleagues in Parliament, but crucially, I will work outside the bubble of Parliament with organisations such as Anti-Poverty Alliance in Wales, Child Poverty Action Group and trade unions—in particular, Unite Wales community—to promote radial, alternative and socialist policies. I want to celebrate and congratulate the Welsh Government on the ambitious pilot. Diolch yn fawr.

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[Gareth Davies]

I will make some progress, if that is all right; I am sure that colleagues will disagree with other points that I make. That was my first point, about cost.

My second point is that a universal basic income could exacerbate, not alleviate, inequality. Under a universal system, everybody would receive the payment. Millionaires would receive a cheque through the post. Even an RMT driver on £70,000 a year would receive a cheque. There is, however—I would like the Minister to address this—a point to be made about the need to simplify our benefits system. I accept that, having dealt with hundreds of cases in my constituency. A lot of the time, vulnerable members of society are not aware of all the many benefits that are available to them. I would endorse any effort that the Minister made to inform people of them, and to simplify our benefit system. As a universal system would exacerbate inequality and give billionaires and millionaires a cheque through the post that they did not need, I cannot accept this policy suggestion.

[Beth Winter]

If the hon. Gentleman had listened to what I said, he would have heard me say that the policy would have to be part of a more general transformative agenda. I was here yesterday, speaking in a debate on a wealth tax. According the Wealth Tax Commission, such a tax would raise £260 billion. Does he agree that that would be a good way of raising funding?

[Gareth Davies]

It will shock the hon. Lady to hear that I do not agree. We are going a little off-course, but on a wealth tax, a lot of people invest in our country, and a lot of people start from nothing and go on to achieve great things. I do not want to hamper their ambition for a better life, and their aim of setting up a business and employing lots of people. A wealth tax would not only put people off from investing in and coming to this country, but dissuade people such as my dad, who is not a particularly rich man, from doing what he did: he set up a business because he wanted to do better for himself and his family. He ended up employing a lot of people. A wealth tax is not the way forward, in my view. Incentivising economic growth and the dignity of work is the way to go.

That brings me to my third point. Time and again, the dignity of work and the security of a regular pay cheque have been proven to be the best way out of poverty. However, people in work do not just get an income; they get so much more. They get friends; sometimes they meet their wives. They get meaning in life and a purpose. The dignity of work gives people things to get up for in the morning.

The work environment and the people who we work with add so much to our lives, but jobs also give us skills that develop over time. I am afraid that I disagree with my friends from the Scottish National party about the effect of introducing a universal basic income, which will dissuade people from going to work. It will not encourage work in the way that they have said it will.

--- Later in debate ---

[Alison McGovern]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point about the universality of the system, which we all pay into and we all take out of when we need to. That is the contributory principle—the principle that we are all part of the same system.

This is where I think there is an important point that is at risk of being missed, because the contributory principle—the idea that we are all a part of this system—is failed when people are left behind. Beveridge and Eleanor Rathbone—whose history you know well, Chair—created a system of social security that was not in isolation from the other work that they did in analysing the problems that had happened in the 1930s and assessing which institutions were needed for a good economy that would leave no one behind and in which people could pay into the social security system when they were able to, through working, and take out of it when they needed to. Their point was to ensure that work would help to support families and that the social security system would be there to provide a minimum level of income, as needed, to support a family.

The Beveridge report required two other things to be in existence to support the system of social security. The first was the creation of the NHS and the second was the assumption of full employment—a labour market where everybody could take part and where work would provide enough to help to support a family.

As various Members have already said, that is what is going wrong right now. The Prime Minister crows about jobs, but he does so in the middle of a crisis of huge price rises while wages are falling. For me, that is the definition of a broken jobs market.

[Beth Winter]

As I am sure my hon. Friend is aware, prior to the 2019 Labour manifesto, the then shadow Chancellor, my right hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell), commissioned Guy Standing to undertake a research project on a pilot of basic income. A document was produced, which I expect she has read, that proposed a UBI pilot and piloting UBI was included in the 2019 manifesto. Is that something we continue to support?

[Alison McGovern]

I will set out the rest of my argument about what I think we should do to help to improve people’s incomes. And I will do so very quickly, Ms McVey.

People have mentioned the various pieces of research, which are important, because they tell us about how people respond to different systems. However, I think that this broken jobs market that we now face, whereby businesses are crying out for staff and there are vacancies left, right and centre, but too many people are stuck in work that is far too low-paid, shows exactly what is going wrong.

The problem with what the hon. Member for Grantham and Stamford (Gareth Davies) said about work having been proven to be the best route out of poverty is that, for the past decade, the Tory Government have set out on a mission to prove that that is not the case. We need a social security system that does what it was designed to do—help people through different life stages when they need it, and help lift people out of disadvantage and into the dignity of work. There will always be people who are unable to work, but the vast majority of people want to be in work.

It is not obvious to me that there is a proposal on the table that does either of those things. Labour’s approach will be different. We need to change jobcentres—