Brexit: Preparations

Baroness Young of Old Scone Excerpts

Monday 21st October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

The long-term consequences will flow partly from the withdrawal agreement but also from the political declaration and the future arrangements. We have committed to involving Parliament fully in the detailed negotiating mandates for the future arrangements. I am sure there will be lots of happy hours for all of us, endlessly discussing these matters for a long time to come.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

Will the Minister elaborate a bit on the context in which this Statement was made? At the beginning, I think I heard assurances that the Government are committed to securing environmental protections. So will the Minister tell us why non-regression on European environmental standards was removed from the binding element—the withdrawal agreement—and relegated to the non-binding element—the political declaration—thus leaving environmental standards to the mercies of the negotiation of the trade agreement? Will the Minister admit that that is asking us all to buy a bit of a pig in a poke, in that we do not know what the deal on environmental standards will be as a result of the negotiations on the free trade agreements? Will he tell me that this is the reason why members of the ERG are going around with broad smiles on their faces, laughing in the face of the environmental movement? They are notably flat earthers and climate change deniers.

[Lord Callanan]

The noble Baroness demeans herself with some of those statements. The original level playing field provisions were in the Irish protocol, which has been abolished and replaced with entirely new arrangements. We have committed to provisions in the political declaration, and she will know from her experience that our environmental standards go much further than many in the European Union. Only last week we announced legislation on the new environmental protection bodies, and we have announced legislation on single-use plastics which is far in advance of legislation from the European Union. We are proud of our environmental record and will continue with it.

Brexit: Negotiations

Baroness Young of Old Scone Excerpts

Tuesday 9th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

This is the subject of legal proceedings, as the noble Lord is well aware. I am not going to answer his question because I am not sure we have made a decision about how we are going to proceed on that yet, but as soon as I know more I will come back to him on it.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

Will the Minister give me a little practical advice? I have been approached by a number of small and medium-sized enterprises that are rather confused by the technical notes. At what stage would the Minister say that these small and medium-sized enterprises should start in earnest to implement the suggestions made in those notes—now, in a couple of months or never? I would like some advice, please.

[Lord Callanan]

As with all these things, it is difficult to be precise. However, the noble Baroness will be as aware as I am of the necessary parliamentary timetables that will be involved in passing the appropriate legislation. If we do not have a withdrawal agreement in place in enough time to get it passed by Parliament then we will clearly be looking at a no-deal scenario, given the timescale. I do not want to be any more precise than that. The noble Baroness will probably want to push me on it, but I think she will now have some idea of where we are going.

Brexit: Preparations and Negotiations

Baroness Young of Old Scone Excerpts

Monday 23rd July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

My Lords, much that could be said has been said. I am just grateful that I am speaking immediately before rather than after the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, with his eloquence and humour. How is that for a build-up?

I want to give two examples of what a mess the process is in and why crashing out—a no-deal Brexit—is a strong possibility but cannot possibly be contemplated. I will try not to sound like someone out of “Dad’s Army” saying, “We’re doomed! We’re all doomed!”, but to give a practical appreciation of the fact that this thing is much more complex than any of us ever realised and that we are rapidly running out of time.

The example that I want to give is aviation, and perhaps “crash out” is not a phrase that we should use about aviation, so let us call it “a non-negotiated withdrawal”. That could have significant implications for the aviation industry. The White Paper plan is to maintain membership of the European Aviation Safety Agency. If that does not happen in time, the CAA here in the UK will need to kit up and organise to take over the safety regulatory tasks. It cannot possibly do that in time. I therefore share with my noble friend Lord Whitty the belief that we are running out of that precious commodity, time.

Without design organisation approval, UK manufacturers currently holding EASA design certificates will not be able to deliver products to EU manufacturers, which will dramatically slow down the production of aircraft. That is why Rolls-Royce is moving its engine design approval work to Germany. The aviation industry has called on the EU Commission to allow technical talks to proceed between the EASA and the CAA on the transition of responsibilities. So far, the Commission has rejected these requests.

The noble Lord, Lord Razzall, highlighted air transport agreements governing the rights to fly between two countries which need to be negotiated before Brexit or continuity of service will be threatened. UK carriers are signalling their lack of confidence that such agreements will be negotiated in time and are setting up entities in EU 27 states to protect their right to fly. What evidence does the Minister have that these complex agreements can be reached in time, or, indeed, at all?

There is a similar situation in the chemicals industry, which is the UK’s second-largest manufacturing industry. The White Paper says that we will seek to participate in the European Chemicals Agency, but this negotiation has not happened yet. The industry is in a state of high uncertainty about what it needs to do. If we crash out, the UK will have to create its own system for authorising and regulating chemicals, with additional cost and complexity for companies having to register chemicals in two different systems. Again, what evidence does the Minister have that all this can happen in time? Last week, your Lordships’ EU Energy and Environment Sub-Committee was magnificently unconvinced by the Defra Minister on this.

Those are simply two practical examples of the cliff edge that we are rapidly approaching. They are mirrored across virtually all of the 131 Brexit work streams. Whatever you think about Brexit, crashing out cannot be an option. It is a recipe for chaos for businesses, especially small and medium-sized enterprises, and for the people of this country.

I am angry and sad about all this. I am sad that, in reality, the split in views about Brexit across the nation and across politics means that our political institutions are simply not working any more. In reality, the lack of coalescence around solutions is due to the fact that there is no effective majority for Brexit at all. In any other walk of life, for a cataclysmic change—a major, brave change like this—I would want 75% support behind me before I decided to push out the boat, but we simply do not have that; it is virtually a 50:50 issue.

I am angry that so much of our negotiating energy and time have been spent on the Government trying to pacify their paramilitary hard-Brexit wing, but I am also angry that all of us in this House acquiesced to a simple majority for a referendum on something as fundamental as leaving the EU when there was no clarity about what that would mean. Therefore, we need to wake up and smell the coffee. Crashing out would be disastrous but the negotiated exit enshrined in the White Paper is unlikely to be negotiable in time. It is only not the worst of all options because crashing out is the worst of all options. There is indeed an insufficient public mandate for the lunge into the dark that Brexit represents. We must not shut the door on remaining in the EU. As negotiations continue and when the meaningful vote takes place, if remaining looks, on a practical rather than a political basis, like the only sensible option, we must not duck that conclusion.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Baroness Young of Old Scone Excerpts

3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 16th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Smith of Finsbury]

No, I will not. I am sorry. The crucial part of the amendment is subsection (4), which talks about,

“an independent body with the purpose of ensuring compliance with environmental law by public authorities”.

When I was chairman of the Environment Agency, action was taken on some of the major issues affecting our environment—such as the fact that we discharge raw sewage into the River Thames 20 times or more a year, and the lethal levels of air pollution in our cities—only because of the prospect of infraction proceedings from the EU. If we lose that lever, we lose the ability to tackle these major environmental issues. It is essential that we insist—not just as part of the consultation but now—that the powers of the new environmental watchdog include the ability to take that sort of legal action.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

My Lords, I was pondering in bed this morning, as one does, about when the change of tone came from the Government on the watchdog and the principles and the commitment to the environment.

We have heard really quite encouraging statements from the Government over the past year. These have included a pledge to be,

“the first generation to leave the environment in a better state than we inherited”;

saying:

“We need to fill the governance gap”.—[Official Report, 8/1/18; col. 8.];


and promising to create,

“a new, world-leading body to give the environment a voice … independent of government, able to speak its mind freely”,

with “clear authority” and “real bite”. These are not my words, these are the Government’s words. They were not enunciated just by the Secretary of State for the Environment, whom you would expect to say things like that, but they were quite frequently enunciated by the Prime Minister as well. That was jolly welcome to us environmentalists, who believe that the environment is not about birds and bees and tweety things but is actually about the ecosystems on which all of human life and economic prosperity depend.

However, somewhere along the line the cracks in the Government’s commitment to their intentions and their fine words have appeared. The consultation document which came out last week was total confirmation of that. There has been a huge watering-down of the status of the environmental principles to a policy statement, which the Government would only have to have regard to, on the basis that it would,

“offer greater flexibility for Ministers”.

I am not sure that that ought to be the objective of all this. Even though the Government promised that Brexit would not weaken our environmental protections, the way in which the principles are being dealt with in the consultation will not deliver that. As many noble Lords have said, the watchdog is more like a watchpoodle and simply will not do the task that has been carried out by the Commission and the European Court of Justice very successfully, as the noble Lord, Lord Smith, has just pointed out.

The consultation was very late. We should have smelled a rat when it did not appear as promised in November 2017. As a former chief executive of the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds, I know about little birds and a little bird has told us that this is a sign of cold feet in a range of departments—BEIS, the Treasury, the Department for Transport and, indeed, No. 10. There is a total lack of cross-government agreement and that means that the consultation is late, the governance gap is opening up under our feet and there is no chance of getting even these weak proposals in place before Brexit day.

The Government have made a commitment to ensure legal continuity on day one of Brexit so it is vital that the principles and the watchdog are part of domestic law.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Baroness for giving way. I am just contemplating the case that has been put for a really powerful watchdog to protect the environment. If we think, for example, of the decision to turn off the pumps in order to protect the birds on the Somerset Levels, it had a devastating effect on the people who live there.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone]

I shall no doubt see the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, on this matter at a later point because, in fact, the folklore around that decision is wide of the mark. This is not the time or the place, but I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Smith, and I will be able to see him afterwards.

We really need the principles and the watchdog in place so that, on Brexit day, we have public bodies that are following the principles, courts that are applying the principles, and the public are able to rely on the watchdog to have a voice on the environment. This Bill is the only opportunity that will deliver that on time, so the way the Government deal with this now is the ultimate test of whether they really are truly committed to maintaining equivalence in environmental protection post Brexit. I hope the Government will stand up and meet this test.

[Lord Dykes (CB)]

My Lords, I add my thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, and the others who have their name to this amendment for their speeches and suggestions. I entirely agree with them and also with the words of the noble Lord, Lord Smith, who was in that prominent position himself at the Environment Agency. I personally felt very surprised at the rather over-robust outburst from the noble Lord, Lord Framlingham, about the whole purpose of this amendment and indeed the nature of the Bill itself. The noble Lord, Lord Deben, emphasised earlier the ecumenical nature of the formulations that have come out of this very serious and deep study made by many people, including the Government.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Baroness Young of Old Scone Excerpts

Report: 4th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 30th April 2018 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Young of Old Scone]

64: After Clause 9, insert the following new Clause—
“Replication of EU law: consultation on impact and equivalence
(1) This section applies to regulations (whether or not under this Act) which—(a) are designed to replicate a provision of EU legislation (with or without modifications), or(b) amend or replace legislation which was made under section 2(2) of the European Communities Act 1972 or which was otherwise made for the purpose of giving effect to EU obligations.(2) Before making the regulations a Minister of the Crown must publish a statement that the Minister is satisfied that a draft has been published in such a manner, and for such a period, as to give persons representing interests affected by the regulations a reasonable opportunity to consider and make representations about—(a) the environmental, social and other impacts of the regulations, and(b) equivalence with EU legislation. (3) The period referred to in subsection (2) must not be less than 3 months, except where the Minister includes a statement that—(a) the Minister is satisfied that 3 months’ notice could not reasonably be given in the circumstances, and(b) as much notice was given as the Minister considers reasonably practicable.(4) This section ceases to have effect on 31st December 2021 unless the Secretary of State by regulation continues it.”

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Judd and the noble Lords, Lord Tyler and Lord Lisvane, have also put their names to this amendment. It is a variation on a similar amendment debated in Committee, but it now includes a sunset clause to restrict the scale of its application, which the Minister expressed concern about at that stage. It is, of course, put forward in a spirit of helpfulness to the Government, although I find that a bit difficult to say at this time of night. It encourages the Government to seek wider advice and assistance in spotting any errors in the large number of statutory instruments—between 800 and 1,000 in addition to the normal numbers—that will need to come forward as a consequence of the EU withdrawal Act. I am concerned about possible flaws in the statutory instruments because of the large number of them, the pace at which they will have to come forward, the lack of staff with sufficient experience in some government departments and the overall pressure of Brexit-related legislation.

It is important that the statutory instruments are available for scrutiny before being formally laid, as once they are laid they cannot be amended under either the affirmative or negative procedure. The only option then would be to seek to annul any flawed statutory instrument. That is the nuclear option which would run the risk of leaving gaps in the legislation on exit, which I am sure the Government would not wish.

I thank the Minister and his team for meeting me and the noble Lord, Lord Tyler. The noble Lord, Lord Callanan, was quite rightly keen that consultation should not mean three months for all subjects great and small. The Government have now laid amendments and given formal assurances on this issue, as have some individual government departments. I welcome the pre-scrutiny proposed for the negative procedure statutory instruments, which would mean that they were published as “negatives in draft” and would give a 10-day window for commentators to express concerns about their substance before they were formally laid.

I understand that Defra, which is likely to have about 10% of the statutory instruments, is putting in place a high-level group of external commentators who will advise on the adequacy of the consultation process—a sort of consultation on consultation. It would be good if Defra and any other departments planning this mechanism could press forward so that we might see how this would work.

In their response to the Lords Constitution Committee’s report, the Government have undertaken to lay requirements on Ministers to make statements in explanation of statutory instruments in certain circumstances—for example, where a criminal offence is created or where an urgent statutory instrument is brought forward—but it is likely that such statements will be published only when the SI is laid formally and it is therefore too late, as I have outlined.

I am sure that the Government are committed to preparing this torrent of statutory instruments in as open a way as possible to make sure that the process of transfer of the snapshot of EU legislation into UK law is as uncontentious as possible. The amendment gives the Minister a real opportunity to flesh out this commitment and would place on the parliamentary record the full range of formal and less formal means of consultation and debugging planned by the Government. I beg to move.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I support Amendment 64, which has been ably explained by my noble friend Lady Young. She has attempted to address one of the many practical challenges which will face us in the run-up to Brexit day. We know that we will have to process a large number of statutory instruments in a very short timescale, so how can we be assured that mistakes and oversights do not slip through the net in the rush to meet the deadlines?

We have a particular interest in this issue from an environmental perspective, especially as so many of the regulations will transfer environmental protections—but, obviously, the challenge spans all sectors. We know that civil servants in Defra are already under intense pressure. They are already working on a number of EU-related Bills, including on agriculture, fisheries, environmental standards, and animal welfare and sentience. They also face other pressures from the Secretary of State to modernise other animal welfare and environmental policies. Their number and expertise have been significantly cut and, although new staff have now been taken on to help with Brexit, they do not have the wealth of experience that previously existed. Without safeguards of the kind proposed by the amendment, mistakes in drafting will occur without any means to correct them.

In Committee and subsequently, the Minister took steps to reassure us that pre-scrutiny and sifting processes will be put in place, but the proposals to date have only a partial impact and do not address the more fundamental challenge of delivering proper scrutiny and ensuring that regulations are fit for purpose. So we very much welcome the proposals in Amendment 64. They would give space to allow those affected by the regulations, NGOs and parliamentarians to see the draft wording and have an input before the final version. This is about driving up quality and delivering good governance and I hope that the Minister will welcome the proposals in this spirit.

The amendment focuses on those issues that have a wider environmental and social purpose, where errors and omissions would be more keenly felt. As my noble friend has explained, a new sunset clause of 2021 has now been inserted so that this does not inadvertently become the new norm. I hope the Minister will take this proposal in the positive and constructive form that my noble friend has intended and that she will feel able to support it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Goldie]

The noble Lord makes a perfectly valid point, with which I have some sympathy, but I am endeavouring to deal with the points raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, in the context of her amendment. I am pointing out that it is not that there will not be consultation or robust parliamentary scrutiny. There will be an opportunity for parliamentarians in both Houses to identify the very sorts of concerns to which the noble Lord has referred.

I have set out the Government’s position. I hope the noble Baroness understands why the Government are unable to accept this amendment, and I urge her to withdraw it. I confirm that the Government do not propose to reflect further on this issue between now and Third Reading, so if she wishes to test the opinion of the House, it would be appropriate to do that now.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone]

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, and the noble Lord, Lord Judd, who have had the stamina to stay this late to speak to this amendment. The Minister’s response was disappointing. The undertaking that departments will engage with stakeholders where possible does not give me a lot of confidence. I understand that consultation takes up time and resources and that it needs to be focused on the important rather than the minor. But, as the noble Lord, Lord Judd, has just said, many technical and minor amendments can have major impacts.

I am not convinced that the statements and the transparency promised by the government amendments to the later schedules will fit the bill because, if I understand correctly, they are very much about statements made at the time when the statutory instrument is laid, by which time it is too late to make further amendments. It really is into the nuclear option situation, where only an annulment can then happen.

I had hoped that the Minister would use this opportunity to reassure the House generally and the wider audience about the real commitment the Government have to trying to make sure that we get all these statutory instruments right first time. I only hope that the debates we have had on this proposition and the continuing discussions we have with government departments will reveal that that intention does exist, even if it has not been laid out in the parliamentary domain tonight. In view of the time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 64 withdrawn.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Baroness Young of Old Scone Excerpts

Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 23rd April 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

My Lords, I support Amendment 27. I feel some sympathy for the Minister but it is slightly bizarre that the Government have announced that they want the principles and the environmental watchdog, yet their consultation has not yet emerged. They said that it would take place in the spring. We must all admit that, in view of the weather, spring has been a little late this year but we are rapidly getting into summer and perhaps the Government need to act.

The consultation appears to be mired in politics. We are running out of time. If the consultation does not start soon, we will not have a clear legislative proposal coming forward. We need legislation for the environmental watchdog. There will then be all sorts of practical considerations, such as finding some poor sod of a chairman who is willing to put his neck on the line to speak out against power and report openly on behalf of the public in favour of the environment, as indeed the Environment Agency did in the eight years prior to the noble Lord, Lord Smith, taking up his chairmanship. We still managed to get away with it in those glorious days of the 1990s.

I want to press the Minister on what happens next. The Government cannot go around saying that they want to leave the environment in a better state than they inherited it if, in fact, they are not going to come forward with very positive proposals to safeguard the basic environmental legislation and governance from which the environment has benefited in a major way over the past 30 years. We have to have government consultation well in advance of Third Reading or—what I would prefer, quite frankly—a government amendment which does the same job as this one: to take those government commitments and put them into primary legislation in a simple way.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Baroness Young of Old Scone Excerpts

Monday 19th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

Clearly, the noble and learned Lord has misrepresented to an extent what I just said to the House, because I did not refer to primary legislation—those words slipped into his observation. However, I did point out that, of course, under the process that we have and will have in place, there will be parliamentary scrutiny of the steps we take to implement these provisions in respect of EU retained law after we leave.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

Can the noble and learned Lord clarify the position on the provisions, which the Government will consult on imminently, concerning the “governance gap” that will open up on environmental issues after the withdrawal Bill has been enacted? At least a proportion of the powers and functions listed in subsection (2)(a) to (f) of the proposed new clause will be ascribed to a body whose nature is not yet known but is soon to be subject to consultation. It will deal with reviewing and reporting on compliance with legal requirements, monitoring and measuring, and certainly publicising information. Can the noble and learned Lord tell us what the difference is between the body that is going to fill the environmental governance gap and the same sort of governance gap that will open up with respect to other functions outside the environmental field?

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Baroness Young of Old Scone Excerpts

Committee: 6th sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 12th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hamwee (LD)]

My Lords, I have Amendments 111, 137 and 192 in this group and share the unhappiness that has just been described. Mine is a narrow but, I think, important point.

The thrust of most of the amendments in the group —not the noble Viscount’s—is about consultation and transparency. You do not have to spend long working in Parliament to realise that scrutiny very much depends on the input of stakeholders—I hate the term but I cannot think of a better one at this time of night. They assist us to understand how things work in practice, both with technicalities and wider issues. That is not to say that I do not have great admiration for parliamentary counsel and the lawyers working in the departments, who are most concerned with statutory instruments, but my amendments would require consultation on the regulations provided for by Clauses 7 to 9. This should all be a co-operative venture, with stakeholders contributing at an early stage, not least for the reason that the regulations are statutory instruments and not open to amendment, so you have to get it right from the very start.

I was a member for some time of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, which received a lot of very valuable representations—lobbying, if you like. I suspect we will not hear comments in support of Amendment 228 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, about the Cabinet Office code, but I support the application of the code to the regulations. We may well be told that of course the code will apply. I have to say that in my time on the committee, we undertook quite a lot of work on the application of the code in practice and were quite critical of the responses we received from the Cabinet Office. One of our criticisms was that when consultation was undertaken—which it was not always—on the statutory instruments we were considering, the Government did not publish the responses to the consultation before they published the statutory instrument, so the work was not as helpful as it should have been.

Other amendments in this group are more detailed. Mine is not very elegant. I am not proprietorial about it but I wanted to raise the subject because some provision is necessary and, if I may say so, appropriate. It is a step that is very easy to miss out and I hope we will not be told that all the regulations in question are simply about technicalities and that stakeholders would have nothing to add to the exercise. Practitioners in almost every area may see what is workable in proposals being put forward, as well as substantive points.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 227A in my name, which is also supported by the noble Lords, Lord Lisvane, Lord Tyler and Lord Judd. The amendment is intended to be helpful to the Minister, although it is unlikely that he will regard anything as helpful at this time of night. Nevertheless, it is intended in the spirit of helpfulness to ensure that the statutory instruments that the Government are proposing turn out to be correct and effective. Many of the changes made by the statutory instruments will be technical and potentially uncontroversial but some will involve policy choices. The aim of my amendment is to ensure wider consultation on statutory instruments before they are formally laid.

The nature of the challenge is quite severe. There will be an awful lot of them—potentially 1,000. I have been looking primarily in the last year at the number that will be required in Defra alone—over 100—on environmental issues. They will need to come thick and fast, and in many cases they are being dealt with in departments by staff who have only recently been recruited. Having seen these departments shrink in times of austerity, lots of people are now being recruited, some of whom are old faithfuls but some of whom are rather new and probably not as well acquainted with the policy area as we would like.

So there is a risk of two things: one is cock-up, if noble Lords will pardon the unparliamentary language—things just going wrong because of the sheer volume and pace; and the other is conspiracy. A large number of the Defra SIs will be roll-ups of a whole variety of issues. I am being ignoble in suggesting that the Government might hide under a pile of harmless stuff the odd thing with a slight curveball in it, but increased transparency and consultation would help reassure people that no fast ones were being tried.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, pointed out—and it is inalienable—that the process of both the affirmative and the negative procedures means that once measures are formally laid there is very little room for manoeuvre, so it is important that this consultation happens in advance. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, for his letter of 20 February, following Second Reading. It provided more information but offered only that the Government would make efforts to publish a sample of statutory instruments in draft where appropriate. That rather misses the point, which is to let loose on these drafts expert eyes from across a variety of sectors of stakeholders to help the Government with that checking process to make sure that nothing has been missed, there has not been a cock-up and the policy intentions have not been perverted in any way. I hope the Minister will consider this and see it as a genuinely helpful proposal.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Goldie]

My Lords, this is a wide-ranging group of amendments. I will begin with my noble friend Lord Hailsham’s Amendments 109, 134 and 188 on the effect of regulations made under the main powers of the Bill. My noble friend was commendably brief and very clear—very blunt—about what he seeks. My difficulty is that these amendments would end up running counter to the fundamental aims of the Bill. We have heard from my noble friend himself that these amendments are intended to cause any regulations made under Clauses 7, 8 and 9 to lapse two years after exit day. Quite simply, this would prescribe a rigid legislative timeframe for the Government to replace them and would risk unnecessary disruption. If we could not find an alternative vehicle to write these regulations into law by the two-year deadline, it would create holes in the statute book. However, it is surely illogical to force the Government to make these regulations again in an identical form when they have already legitimately made them once.

The powers themselves, quite rightly, already have their own sunsets: for Clauses 7 and 8 it is two years after exit day, and for Clause 9 it is exit day itself. That is a sensible way in which the Executive have constrained these delegated powers to avoid their being available in perpetuity. But surely the regulations made under these powers should not necessarily be so transient. They will, of course, be doing vital work to ensure that we have a fully functioning statute book for when we leave the EU. We do not want our functioning statute book, or bits of it, to lapse after two years. I sympathise with the intention behind the amendments, but it is too rigid a fetter on the Government and Parliament’s ability to manage legislative priorities and workload between now and 2021, and it certainly would exacerbate the very uncertainty that the Bill is seeking to reduce.

Amendments 111, 137 and 192, all tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, deal with stakeholder consultation. It is my pleasure to tell the Committee that departments are very keen to engage with stakeholders on current matters and progress of the negotiations, and will continue to do so where this is possible and does not negatively impact the negotiations in any way.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone]

I am not sure that the evidence stacks up on that. I have been seeking clarification from Defra for over a year now on just a simple list of the issues that might be subject to statutory instrument, and I have been unable to get that from the department. Perhaps the Minister might like to prod departments to reflect the terms she just stated.

[Baroness Hamwee]

My Lords, I too asked for a list of necessary statutory instruments from the Home Office, and the Parliamentary Answer was that the work had not been done to calculate the number.

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[Baroness Goldie]

Given the breadth of activity already referred to by both the noble Baronesses, Lady Young of Old Scone and Lady Hamwee—a huge breadth of activity involving a multiplicity of issues—it is inevitable that some of these matters will be caught up in the negotiations. I cannot be drawn on specific examples because we may be talking about generic issues. However, the Government are very anxious to avoid in any way hog-tying their freedom to conduct the negotiations with a degree of confidentiality and privacy.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone]

I share my noble friend’s perplexity. We are talking about a government commitment, in my field of expertise, to take existing European environment law and bring it safely across to preserve the same standards. It will not be a great surprise to the European Union and those with whom we are negotiating if what we propose is exactly the same in intent as what currently exists—if the Government are indeed genuinely committed to making sure that we enjoy the same standards post Brexit as we did previously. Therefore, I find it difficult to believe—I have not been able to think of an example—that there will be something monumentally important as regards the negotiating process.

[Baroness Goldie]

I merely observe that the breadth of activity implicit within the negotiations could anticipate issues arising that we are unable at this moment to specify. The Government have been sensible in retaining the flexibility in the negotiations to deal with these if they do arise. It is important in that event—

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[Lord Fox (LD)]

Just when noble Lords thought it could not get any better, they have double chemistry to look forward to. I shall speak to Amendment 115, which bears my name, and in support of Amendment 171. I 100% endorse the words of the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, so I will try not to repeat them and earn the ire of the Government Chief Whip.

As the noble Lord set out, REACH is a very complex system and not just chemical companies are affected by it. All manner of manufacturing employs chemicals, and those chemicals currently fall under the REACH process. That REACH process came through the co-operation and participation of many of those companies. I know from experience that companies have put a lot of time and effort into committees working to create this system. I know very well that they do not want to have to repeat that process. Above all, maintaining REACH or something as parallel as possible is a priority in this process.

The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, mentioned that the Prime Minister seemed to endorse that process. When the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, was speaking to Amendment 66, I thought I heard him endorse continued involvement in REACH, and that was heartening. This amendment seeks to achieve some sense of how the Government feel that is going to happen and unfold. It is not straightforward. Once we have left the European Union, how does the system continue to remain in parallel, or do the Government intend that we remain at the heart of REACH? If so, how do they expect to negotiate that process? Is it through associate membership, full membership or some other way? We need to understand not just how we remain at the point of exit but how we remain on a continuing basis, because this is a living thing. As new chemicals come into use and the ways of using them change, so REACH changes. Even by staying close to REACH, if the United Kingdom does not have full access to all the data, it is going to come up against legal problems if it starts to try to rule on chemicals without all the data behind it.

There is one issue I am very interested in which the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, did not mention. Recently, the Cabinet Office Minister David Lidington was talking about the possible necessity for Westminster to take back responsibility in previously devolved areas—this perhaps reflects on some of the debates we had earlier—in order to maintain,

“the integrity of the United Kingdom market”.

These are David Lidington’s words, not mine. In my words, he would be seeking to “undevolve” some issues. He took a specific example, saying that,

“if you’re a paint manufacturer in Wales you’ve got to stick to some chemical standards … but you want those to be the same as the paint standards in Scotland or Northern Ireland”.

He said it “makes sense” to have unity within a single market, by which he meant the United Kingdom. There is an element of irony in that. I was surprised by that, so perhaps the Minister can help us understand whether David Lidington was off piste on that occasion. It would be very helpful it the Minister could rule that out.

However, strangely enough, the point he was making about the need for a single set of rules within the United Kingdom is of course the whole point of REACH in the first place. The reason the REACH system was created is that manufacturing spans the whole of Europe. We need a chemicals management system that spans Europe, and we want to hear from the Government how that will happen.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone]

My Lords, I will speak briefly to support the amendments. As chief executive of the Environment Agency, I lived through the process of designing and delivering REACH, and it was a joy to work as closely as we did with British industry and industry across Europe in devising a system that was shared between government, regulators and business. It is a bit of an object lesson in how to go about it, and much admired globally. I welcome the Prime Minister’s expression of support, but would just take issue with one thing the noble Lord, Lord Fox, said. I do not think we should be aiming at a parallel system in any way—we should be a full and absolute member of the REACH process. It works, it is elegant and I hope we can get an assurance from the Minister tonight that we will move rapidly to find a way to give industry clarity about how the REACH process will operate post Brexit.

[Baroness Goldie]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, and, in his absence, the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, for their amendments concerning the very significant issue of chemicals regulation.

The Bill will incorporate current EU law into domestic law and allow it to be corrected in order to operate properly, giving consumers and businesses as much certainty as possible. This includes regulations relating to chemicals. The Bill will convert the REACH regulation into domestic law, meaning that the obligations on duty holders and the environmental standards and principles that underpin REACH will continue to apply in the UK, including in the devolved areas. These include the specific measures included in the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Whitty.

We are working to ensure that we have a functioning chemicals regulatory and enforcement system in the UK for day one. For example, the Environment Secretary has given the go-ahead for the development of six new systems, including one for chemicals. Work has started on delivering the new IT system that will enable registrations and the regulation of chemical substances placed on the UK market. This will provide continuity for businesses after EU exit.

Let me be clear: our priorities are to maintain the effective and safe management of chemicals to safeguard human health and the environment, to respond to emerging risks and to allow trade with the EU that is as frictionless as possible. We have been engaging with a range of stakeholders to understand the detailed impacts of Brexit and are grateful for the pragmatic approach that the chemicals industry is taking to Brexit and for its positive approach to working with the Government to understand the impacts and deliver the best possible outcome for the industry after exit. We are committed to continuing this engagement throughout the process.

With regard to chemicals, REACH is underpinned—this is explicit in Article 1—by the precautionary principle. So, once REACH is translated into UK law through the withdrawal Bill, the precautionary principle will continue to exist directly in UK law in relation to REACH. The precautionary principle is also embedded in international conventions relevant to the regulation of chemicals, such as the Stockholm convention on persistent organic pollutants, and the UK is and will continue to be a signatory to the convention in its own right.

Further, our 25-year environment plan sets out our intention to publish a chemicals strategy that will set out our approach as we leave the EU. It will set out our priorities for action and detail how we will achieve our goals, building on existing regulatory approaches and tackling chemicals of national concern. The Government will discuss with the EU as part of the exit negotiations how best to continue co-operation on chemicals regulation in the interests of both the UK and the EU. As the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, acknowledged, in her Mansion House speech the Prime Minister said we want to explore with the EU the terms on which we could continue to co-operate with the European Chemicals Agency and participate in certain processes, the point that the noble Lord, Lord Fox, sought clarification on. As for the specifics, I think your Lordships will understand that I cannot go into more detail because this is the subject of live negotiation in the negotiation process.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Baroness Young of Old Scone Excerpts

Wednesday 7th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood (CB)]

My Lords, what I am about to say is designed to help—although whether it achieves that may of course be doubted. The Government have stated that the central object of the Bill is to ensure that the law on the day after Brexit is the same as on the day before. But it is also the Government’s stated aim—one I would hope is shared by all, or certainly the great majority, in the Chamber—that the EU law retained is certain and clear rather than left in very considerable doubt. I would suggest it is that which explains provisions such as paragraph 2 of Schedule 1, relevant to the question of whether the general principles of EU law are retained, which features in the provision under Clause 6(3), which we are now discussing. Indeed, it also explains Clause 4(2)(b), which we talked about a few days ago—although it seems like weeks—and the non-incorporation of the charter, although I shall show very considerable restraint and not go further down that road. We keep straying on to it—although I had thought that, at least for Committee stage, we had put it to bed some while back.

The amendments in this group, I suggest, will not assist in clarifying and making certain and predictable the application of retained EU law. I therefore cannot support them.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

My Lords, I support Amendment 58. This comes down very simply to the fact that, as a result of the discussion we have heard today, the recitals and preambles either are brought across automatically—in which case, some of the statements made in the debate in the other place on this issue, which were quite lengthy and considerable, need to be re-examined, because my impression of those was that there was no guarantee of preambles and recitals being brought across—or they are not clearly brought across, in which case we need something in the Bill that does so. So I would be very grateful if the Minister would clarify, first of all, whether he believes the Government are convinced that they are already clearly brought across.

[The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Keen of Elie) (Con)]

My Lords, first of all perhaps I may observe that, pursuant to Clause 3 of the Bill:

“Direct EU legislation, so far as operative immediately before exit day, forms part of domestic law on and after exit day”.


That brings over direct legislation, including recitals, as I believe a number of noble Lords have understood.

The Government’s position is that, as long as retained EU law remains as part of the UK statute book, it is essential that there is a common understanding of what the law means. Therefore, to maximise certainty, any question as to the meaning of retained EU law will be determined in the UK courts, in accordance with the CJEU’s case law as it exists immediately before the UK leaves the EU. That is set out in Clause 6(3). Any other starting point would lead to a change in the law and risk creating considerable uncertainty, if not confusion, on exit day.

However, we do not want to fossilise that case law. That is why, pursuant to Clauses 6(4) and 6(5) of the Bill, there is provision for the Supreme Court, and indeed for the High Court of Justiciary in Scotland, to depart from that situation when employing their own jurisprudence. The test would be that which they apply at the present time in departing from their domestic jurisprudence.

While it would be fair to say that the Constitution Committee has not always seen eye to eye with us on the Bill, on this particular issue it described the Government’s position as clear and sensible. Retained EU law will of course be modified after exit day by Parliament, and indeed by the devolved legislatures. It is right and sensible that it should no longer be interpreted in line with retained EU case law, following those modifications. But, in other cases, it may be appropriate that, even where there has been some modification, it should continue to be interpreted in that same way. What we have in mind is a situation in which a modification simply changes a reference, for example from an EU commission or agency to a UK public body, but leaves the substantive scheme of the retained EU law exactly as it was before. That is the purpose of Clause 6(6): to ensure that, where there is a modification that has no impact on the operation of the scheme, we should continue, pursuant to Clause 6(3), to amend in an appropriate fashion.

Amendment 57, which was moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, would remove the reference to unmodified law from Clause 6(3). But one effect of that would be to cast doubt on the operation of Clause 6(6) and the ability of modifications to retained EU law to displace the binding effect of pre-exit CJEU case law. That uncertainty, we suggest, should be avoided.

Can I come on to the issue of recitals?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

I will just clarify that I did not mention the 25-year environment plan. I referred to a new national policy statement setting out environmental principles, which I think is a different document. Otherwise, I agree with everything the noble Baroness said.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone]

My Lords, I share the anxiety of the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, about the timescales, particularly in respect of the consultation on EU environment principles and the establishment of a new independent environmental watchdog. A large amount of environmentally related legislation has to be got through over the next few months or a year: a fisheries Bill, an agriculture Bill and a huge wall of statutory instruments on environmental law are coming towards us. There are something in excess of 800 instruments in total, the last I heard, with a considerable number of those being environmental. I am anxious, along with many other noble Lords, about whether there is air time for this consultation before the legislation that needs to follow to establish the new watchdog. I would press the Minister to tell us about the plans for the consultation.

I also share the anxiety of the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, about whether there will be real welly behind the regulator. I was chief executive of the Environment Agency, the environmental regulator, which had to help negotiate the urban wastewater treatment directive infraction proceedings that produced the Thames tideway. In spite of wanting and willing there to be an example elsewhere in the world of a body established by a Government that is capable of fining its own Government —and hence its own establishing power—I have not been able to find one. I hope, however, that Ministers will look assiduously at producing that result.

In the spirit of the noble Lord, Lord Deben, with the great hope that I am not going to be his unrefined ordure, I will also briefly help the Committee with another couple of examples about why the environmental principles are important. When I was chairman of English Nature, the debate about genetically modified crops was raging. There was huge public concern and the Government were in an impossible position, with the multinational American-based companies pressing very hard to have GM crops introduced. There was huge alarm about the release of triffid-like plants resistant to all known weed-killers and capable of killing insects stone dead at a distance of 100 paces. But the reality is that had there been an uncontrollable release of GM crops, it would have been more than unfortunate for biodiversity, agriculture and food security.

[Viscount Ridley]

Let me give the noble Baroness the chance to get her voice back by intervening on what she knows is one of my favourite subjects. Would she not accept that, many years down the line, we now know, because of the meta-analysis by Göttingen University, among other research, that the introduction of genetically modified crops has not led to triffid-like explosions, but has led to a reduction in the use of pesticides, on average, by 37% across the globe? That is something I think she would support.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone]

Perhaps I could continue our long-standing discussion with the noble Viscount outside the Chamber, to avoid the Committee having to listen to us going through that. The important point is that the principles helped us get a framework for thinking about the issues. That was very important at a time when that meta-analysis was not available.

Another example is our current position on the common agricultural policy. It was introduced before some of these environmental principles were refined and used in European legislation. As a result, we are now in the ridiculous position where the polluter pays principle would have helped us, as taxpayers and as water company customers and payers, avoid paying farmers twice. We are paying water companies to pay farmers to stop doing something that, as taxpayers, we are paying farmers to do. The polluter pays principle, had it existed when the common agricultural policy was first set in place, would have been a hugely valuable way of preventing that very wasteful situation.

[Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer (LD)]

I shall speak to my Amendment 67A, which sets food production within the context of Amendment 66. I heard what the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, said at the beginning and I completely appreciate that Amendment 66 is predicated, or modelled, on the original frameworks. But I want to draw out what is implicit in proposed new subsection (4)(c), which concerns,

“the prudent and rational utilisation of natural resources”.

Part of that is about farming and food production, which we touched on when we debated animal sentience. But the importance of food security, the quality of the food available to us and the price at which that food comes will be founded on the sort of principles that we choose to put into the Bill. I shall give a couple of examples that illustrate this very well.

The first of these would be pre-emptively dosing intensively farmed animals with antibiotics. Is that reckless; is it against the precautionary principle? Yes, it is. It has led to massively increased incidences of antibiotic-resistant bacteria in both animals and humans. Of course, that has had huge cost implications.

We have often talked in this House about the implications of agriculture for climate change. There is a choice coming up for agriculture, which contributes an estimated 11% to total global warming potential. There are better ways. We are looking at no-till agriculture, which will enable the soil to retain more carbon, and so on. I will not detain the Committee with all the details.

The amendment rightly talks of,

“the prudent and rational utilisation of natural resources”.

We have taken for granted for a long time that we have possibly the best grass-growing conditions in the UK: good soil and sufficient rainfall. The amendment is important because it says we must not go on taking any of this for granted. The issue of food production is something the public are rightly very concerned about. Food security is another issue. The principles in the Bill may seem a little esoteric, but when you bring it down to food—what is on the shelves of your local shops or, in the worst-case scenario, is not on the shelves of your local shops—the public will appreciate how right this House would be to debate and insist on these environmental principles being in this Bill.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Baroness Young of Old Scone Excerpts

Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Wednesday 28th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Listowel (CB)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as a vice-chair of the Local Government Association. I support the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, because over the past two years I have been attending two inquiries led by the All-Party Parliamentary Group for Children: the first into children’s social care services and the second into different thresholds for access to those services.

It has become clear from the evidence I have heard that local authority funding has been cut by 30% to 40%. Local authorities are delivering their statutory services and safeguarding children as best they can, but all the peripheral services—the family support services and the charities—are really struggling to meet the need and therefore more and more children are being taken into care. As I said earlier, Lord Justice Munby, President of the Family Court, in his statement last year highlighted that more and more children were being taken into care and the courts were finding it difficult to process the numbers of children being taken into care.

What needs to happen is what has happened to adult social care: additional funding needs to be given to local authorities so that they can meet the needs of their children and family services and we can stop taking children away from families whom, if they had had additional support early on, they could have stayed with. It is relevant to this debate because we have heard in the inquiries that it is often the poorest local authorities, with the most deprived families, which have both the greatest demand on their services and the fewest resources to meet those needs. So in what the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, proposes I see a way of reducing deprivation and improving the wealth of those communities so that there is more resource available to local authorities to meet local need, and reducing the need of families to turn to those kinds of services. I look forward to a response from the Minister to the principles that the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, has just set out.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

My Lords, I add my support to Amendment 23, moved by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, from an environmental perspective. These funds have been hugely beneficial in helping bring environmental progress, together with economic and social progress, to these very deprived areas.

The ERDF is big and it is substantial—you can see it from the moon. Four of its 11 thematic objectives are environmental: climate change mitigation, climate change adaptation, wider environmental protection and sustainable transport. The thematic approach has really helped mainstream environmental considerations into development in these areas and encouraged more sustainable development strategies and schemes that provide local employment and economic activity, often in areas that have absolutely nothing but their natural resources to rely on. That has been a hugely valuable process.

I particularly commend the Interreg process as part of the EDRF. This focuses on cross-border environmental protection projects and has provided for projects that have struggled to get funding elsewhere because they span administrative and governmental boundaries. It is quite telling, as the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, said, that Norway participates in Interreg, and I encourage the Government to consider remaining in the Interreg process. It is hugely innovative and facilitates cross-border work which simply will not be done by a “Britain going it alone” process, as is the case with many of the issues that we will face in the future outside the European Union. This is particularly important in environmental areas because, of course, the environment does not recognise governmental or administrative boundaries.

I therefore ask the Minister whether she would consider how a strategy could be brought forward to fill the gap post-Brexit. It needs two elements. First, it needs to recognise that these funds are absolutely crucial and that that level of funding needs to be continued, because so many other sources of funding for these sorts of projects are diminishing. Local authority money is going, lottery money is going, the Government themselves are broke and the charities are not too well-off either.

Secondly, there is the whole issue of stability. If the funds are reshaped along Barnett formula lines—and if they are simply locked into the block grant and not ring-fenced—key areas of high need will lose out. Currently, these funds are allocated on the basis of need and merit proposals, and we would not see a degree of stability going forward if they were simply dealt with on a pre-existing formula. I therefore hope the Government will come forward with a strategy; this is a splendid proposition.