Baroness Williams of Trafford
Main Page: Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative - Life peer)Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [HL]
Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts
Lord Scriven (LD)
My Lords, I am pleased to put my name to this amendment and I thank my noble friend Lord Teverson for outlining the reason why it is necessary. On the face of it, it would not seem necessary to have such an amendment, apart from the announcement made last week with regard to major transport infrastructure and electrification of all the rails in the north of England. Let us assume that we have this new system of decentralisation or devolution, and a number of combined authorities and mayors are making significant investments in their areas with regard to the environment and the economy, having been promised that major infrastructure will be invested in to make their rail system faster and the major cities of the north connected, and to help economic activity and to speed up the way in which commuters and other people can travel.
Let us further assume that, with no consultation or prior warning, the Government pull that major investment, or pause it or kick it into the long grass—whatever phrase is used. For several years, combined authorities and mayors might have been making strategic investments about the location of economic zones or other infrastructure that fits on to the railways in which the Government said that they would invest. That is why the provision needs to be in the Bill. The Minister said that such things would of course be discussed and a requirement did not need to be written into the Bill, but we now have a real case in which dozens of leaders in the north of England have not been consulted about a major change in government infrastructure funding.
We have gone from the northern powerhouse to the northern power cut in the blink of an eye. We are talking about devolution and decentralisation in which significant responsibilities and money for transport will be handed down to local areas, and strategic decisions will be made not in a vacuum but in relation to national government infrastructure. Local areas will be not only consulted but seen as equal partners so that their investments and plans are taken into consideration when the Government invest; and so that the Government keep local areas informed truthfully, openly and honestly about decisions on infrastructure, whether roads, rail, ports or aviation. This is not a made-up scenario; it is a real scenario that happened last week. It is important that it is written into the Bill that areas that have devolved powers should be consulted or warned about government transport infrastructure decisions, and that the area’s ideas are fed into the national plan.
I am happy to support the amendment and I ask the Minister to accept it. Last week shows exactly why the amendment needs to be in the Bill. We need to enable not just the Government but combined authorities, which will be making significant decisions about their local transport systems, to make strategic decisions.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)
My Lords, I will respond first to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Scriven. I will talk later about the Northern Hub and my perspective on it, having worked on it some years ago.
The amendment is not necessary because existing legislation already enables the Secretary of State to confer by order transport functions on a combined authority. In such circumstances, a combined authority with strategic responsibilities is able to make representations about decisions that are likely to impact on its area and how it exercises those transport functions should it decide to do so. On the point about combined authorities being consulted, I can confirm that, wherever appropriate, the Government would expect to consult all local authorities, not just combined authorities, on new infrastructure in their area, whether that be transport or otherwise.
However, the Government must have discretion to take decisions about the future and prioritisation of national assets across the country, some of which—for instance rails and roads, to which the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, referred—run through many local authority areas. Of course we would expect to engage with local areas on the impact of such changes. One of the advantages a combined authority brings is that it enables the Government to focus their engagement on issues such as transport with a single body that can represent its constituent authorities on strategic responsibilities across a wider area.
Lord Teverson
No one more than me welcomed the ambitious £38 billion investment, which has been shown to be overambitious. Part of that investment programme was introduced during the coalition Government and, no doubt, there were creaks in it even at that time.
The Minister has tried to assure me that this is not necessary but was the Midland main line and the TransPennine Express announcement as much news to the local authorities as it was to us? The momentum and rhetoric of the Government since the election, particularly out of the Treasury, has been about pushing this programme forward. This makes it even more incredible that suddenly it has hit the buffers, to use the cliché, literally within a week of this amazing government rhetoric. Did the local authorities get any inkling of this before the public and the House?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I cannot confirm that those local authorities had any inkling—there is no one from Manchester or Leeds here this evening—but, as I tried to say earlier, the Northern Hub, as a project, is well under way. This aspect of it has been paused—not stopped—and I fully expect it to continue.
Lord Scriven
The purpose of the amendment is not to say that it has not altered. Let me give a practical example. If a local authority, LEP or combined authority agreed with a multinational investor a decision about the placing of a factory or economic unit and then out of the blue, without any consultation or pre-warning, this major transport electrification on which the investment is predicated was postponed, what would that look like to the international investor? How do the combined authority and the mayor respond? The whole purpose of this Bill is for the mayor to have some form of accountability and authority to deliver on the powers that are handed down or in partnership with national bodies.
The amendment does not ask for them to override. It says that if something like this happens, it is in the Bill that the Government, as a matter of courtesy and of strategic planning with that combined authority and mayor, will pre-warn and discuss some strategic changes that may be made so that they can reassure people who are either investing there, or there already, rather than being left startled and unable to answer the significant questions that investors will be asking.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I take the noble Lord’s point that if an international investor was reliant upon the fact that the Government had made an announcement about something and then a mayor or combined authority proceeded in that way, it would be very difficult. I have just been passed a note about the Transport Secretary, who gave evidence to the Transport Select Committee in March. He was at that point raising concerns about the cost and the programme delays on the TransPennine link and First Great Western. Transport Ministers answer questions on rail issues all the time. Uncertainty is a natural part of a huge programme; I think that all noble Lords would accept that. The timetable is subject to continuous review as plans develop and the Transport Minister has set out his plan for addressing, not scrapping, the situation. I hope that that comforts the noble Lord.
Lord Teverson
My Lords, I thank the Minister for her reply. There is a real problem here and it is something that needs to be fixed. I do not in any way question her or her department’s will that this project happens or that they will communicate with the combined authorities, but the track record shows there is a need here. I will think about that further. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have all made interesting points this evening. On Amendment 44F, I can confirm that there is nothing at all which would prevent a local authority from working in partnership or collaborating with other authorities in its area, or across other areas. Indeed, the Government encourage collaborative working as an integral part of providing better services for local people and providing value for money for local taxpayers. However, we do not see that it is necessary for the Secretary of State to provide for any such collaborative working by order. It is for local authorities to enter into partnerships where they consider that it would be mutually beneficial and provide value for money for the taxpayer, and it is not necessary for such arrangements to be established in statute.
Amendment 44G seeks to insert a new paragraph into Clause 10(1), requiring the Secretary of State to have regard to the need to reflect the identities and interests of local communities and to secure effective and convenient local government. In response to the debate we have just had on this, and the number of interesting points that have been raised, I hope that it may be helpful to noble Lords if I set out briefly how we envisage that the Government may use the powers being taken under Clause 10 in support of any proposals that are submitted to us in the context of devolution deals.
The regulations in Clause 10 are not themselves about creating new governance structures, for example creating new unitary councils or merging councils. Rather, the regulations are about modifying the processes in particular cases. An example would be enabling, in the case of a particular deal, the processes for establishing new governance arrangements to be fast-tracked if all the councils involved consent. The processes for establishing unitary councils and merging councils are currently set out in Part 1 of the Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Act 2007. It may be that a bespoke devolution deal is agreed with an area which involves changing the governance arrangements in the area in a way that results in a move to more unitary structures, perhaps also involving some merging of authorities.
All the councils involved have agreed these changes. Furthermore, all these changes will have been developed as part of the discussions, negotiations, and engagement by councils with their areas, which have led to the development and finalisation of the deal. With the deal agreed, all will want to see it implemented as quickly as practicable. The regulations under Clause 10 can help fast-track the processes. These regulations can modify the application of the 2007 Act processes for bringing about these governance changes in the particular circumstances of this agreed devolution deal. Such regulations, which would require the approval of both Houses of Parliament, can be made only with the consent of the local authorities to whom they apply.
However, we do not see these regulations bringing into play different fundamental principles underpinning the Secretary of State’s consideration of matters as provided for by the existing statutory processes for making governance changes. We see them modifying such processes, such as the processes in the 2007 Act which I have mentioned in the example I have just described. Where the processes of governance change involve the Secretary of State being required to have regard, for example, to the need to reflect the identities and interests of local communities, and to secure effective and convenient local government, this will continue to be the case. Accordingly, the amendment proposed is not necessary and I would hope that, given this explanation, the noble Lord will agree to withdraw it.
Amendments 44H, 44J, 44K and 44L appear to envisage a situation in which a change to unitary governance arrangements is supported by the local authorities that have agreed that such restructuring should form part of a devolution deal, and in relation to which the Secretary of State would then make regulations, but they cannot agree on the detail of such restructuring. In these circumstances, it provides that the Secretary of State may nevertheless make regulations, either with the consent of the principal authorities to whom the regulations are to apply; or after consideration of any demonstration of support from key organisations and citizens in the affected area; or, where provided, on the advice of the Local Government Boundary Commission for England. On the face of it, this amendment would provide the Secretary of State with some flexibility to determine the arrangements to be put in place where these cannot be agreed by the affected council, and to do so by drawing more widely on the views of others within the authorities or, indeed, other bodies.
However, this is to suggest that it is the Secretary of State himself who in some circumstances should be determining the aspects of the devolution deal. In reality, and as we have discussed, the process that we are putting in place and the flexibilities we seek to provide are all focused on ensuring that any proposals for a devolution deal put to the Government, and which may or may not include structural change, are negotiated and agreed with the Government by all the councils concerned. The purpose of any subsequent regulations made by the Secretary of State is to implement the proposals that have been agreed as quickly and effectively as is practicable and with the consent of the local authorities to which those regulations would apply. It is not the role of the Secretary of State to use the regulations he makes to paper over any cracks or to impose any kind of solution that does not reflect the deal that has been agreed.
At this point, I say that I have a lot of sympathy for the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Liddle. I can see exactly the problems to which he is referring. In a way, it is a test of the leadership in that area to agree. To amend that in some way undermines the whole process of devolution and the fact that this is an enabling Bill. I think that we had a corridor conversation at one point, and I am very happy to talk to the noble Lord on a one-to-one basis—if he was running Cumbria, he might have sorted something out by now because he seemed to have it absolutely right on how to do it. However, it does have to be locally led, but I am very happy to sit down with him and perhaps discuss some of the issues and see whether there are other mechanisms by which Cumbria’s ambitions could be realised.
Amendment 45A seeks to delete the provisions in the Bill providing that any regulations made under this clause are not to be considered to be hybrid. This approach of disapplying the hybridity processes from secondary legislation that makes provision about particular areas is well precedented. Our aim, as I have explained to the House, is to agree bespoke devolution deals with particular areas. To do this, we envisage following a process that begins with the Government having conversations with areas about their proposals, their ambitions and the aspirations of their communities. Through these conversations, agreement will be reached between the Government and an area on the deal; that is, the agreement about the powers and budgets to be devolved to the area and about the governance arrangements to be put in place to support these powers being confirmed on the area. Strictly, of course, those arrangements will be with the democratically elected representatives of that area. In developing their proposals and reaching agreement, those representatives will engage with businesses, communities and local people in that area; in short, they will engage with those who will be affected by and will benefit from the devolution deal.
The parliamentary process is to provide Parliament with the opportunity to agree or, if it sees fit, reject the devolution deal that the Government and an area have concluded. Parliament will have before it in the Explanatory Memorandums details of the devolution deal that the secondary legislation under consideration is seeking to implement. As I said in debates last week, I am prepared to consider whether it might be appropriate for further information to be made available about any devolution deal under consideration. In these ways, Parliament will have available to it all the information it needs to reach a decision on the secondary legislation, and those affected by the legislation will, through the local deal-negotiating processes, be able to make the inputs they may wish to the deal. There is thus no need in the case of these instruments to apply the hybrid procedures.
Further, and as we have discussed in previous debates, once the negotiation of any devolution deal has been concluded, we are anxious to ensure that the proposals can be implemented quickly and to the benefit of all concerned. The hybridity process would delay the delivery of those benefits. I hope that the noble Lords will agree not to press this amendment.
Amendment 48B would insert a new clause placing a statutory duty on the Secretary of State to provide a report to Parliament on the involvement of communities and local electors in the process of devolving power from central government to local and combined authorities. I completely agree that devolution proposals should show how communities will be engaged. However, the important thing here is not putting in place a tick-box requirement in legislation. Instead, the key issue is how central and local government work together to make sure that all deals include agreement on how power and responsibility will be shared with communities and individuals to mutual advantage. As with other aspects of a bottom-up exercise, obviously we would welcome applications from areas with ideas for incentives for this as part of any deal. The noble Baroness, Lady Royall, talked about the importance of counties; naturally we would love to hear from counties.
We believe that devolution to neighbourhoods can deliver better outcomes and more efficient services in many cases. We are aware of lots of examples of neighbourhoods and parishes taking on services. Cornwall, for example, has set out a framework for devolution to town and parish councils and community groups. We will be actively asking how local authorities will work with communities and neighbourhoods in delivering devolved services, and I have asked my officials to work with places in developing further ways to incentivise this.
There are already mechanisms—for example, parliamentary Questions and debates—by which Parliament can call Ministers to account. The secondary legislation to complement each deal will be scrutinised by both Houses of Parliament and approved by them. This is a process that involves a detailed Explanatory Memorandum being laid before Parliament.
A process for evaluating the progress on deals will be discussed with each area on a case-by-case basis. For example, as part of its devolution deal, Greater Manchester will be required to put in place an extensive programme of evaluation, agreed by the Treasury. Evaluations will be public documents, available to all Members of the House. Accordingly, I do not believe that it is necessary to place a statutory duty as per these amendments.
I have a final point in response to the noble Lord, Lord Woolmer, who made a crucial point about wider endorsement by the public. While this is not the London mayor, and Greater Manchester and Cornwall are not London, I see the London mayor as an example of where, as time has gone on, not only has the mayor been better understood by the public but the engagement of both Mayor Livingstone and Mayor Johnson with the people of London has enhanced that role and made it a very compelling one. In previous years it was a question of, “Who will we get to stand as mayor?”, but it has now become an attractive and competitive thing to do—witness the number of people from all parties who are putting themselves forward for it. I take the noble Lord’s point, and I do not think we should forget it in these discussions.
With these explanations and assurances, I hope that the noble Lord will feel content to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Shipley
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for her response to Amendment 44F, and in particular for her reassurance that collaborative working arrangements between a rural area and a combined-authority urban area would not be impossible if an amendment was not approved as part of the Bill.
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, for giving a very good example of what I was talking about relating to the transport corridor between north Cumbria and the north-east of England. We just need to be certain that we do not need statutory arrangements in place with a combined authority in the north-east that would enable, or make it easier for, the north of Cumbria to engage with that.
Mention was made, I think by the Minister, of the work of Cornwall. Tribute should be paid to Cornwall not only for what it has done with its governance structure—it is now a unitary council—but for the way in which it has moved forward with the devolution agenda. I hope that in the course of the next few years other areas will see that as something that can be followed. I welcome the debate that we have had on this and beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, I have to say that I regard this amendment as somewhat unreal. I had the pleasure of working in three places during the recent general election: first, in my own authority of Newcastle; secondly, in the only seat that Labour retained in Scotland, clearly thanks to my superhuman efforts; and thirdly, in Stockton-on-Tees. The relevance of the last is that more posters were exhibited in Stockton-on-Tees for the Thornaby Independent Association than there were for all the other political parties put together; it is an association for the Thornaby part of the constituency.
The notion that electors are committed to the structures which have been created over time is somewhat fanciful. The good residents of Clara Street, in the ward of Benwell in the west end of Newcastle, which I have represented for approximately a fortnight longer than the Minister has graced this earth—that is, dare I say it, just under 50 years—are not consumed with interest in the governance structures of the local authority. I shall use the phrase again: it is quite unreal. Of course they talk of nothing else but the constitution of council committees in my ward and other places. What the amendment seeks to do is prescribe that, in some undefined way, the Secretary of State has to be satisfied that local government electors have been “properly consulted”, whatever that means, on the details of the procedures laid out in Clause 10. The clause covers the governance arrangements of local authorities, their constitution and membership, and the structural and boundary arrangements in relation to them. It goes on to state,
“‘governance arrangements’ means the executive arrangements, committee system or prescribed arrangements operated by a local authority under Part 1A of the Local Government Act 2000”.
In those 48 years, I have not had a single question addressed to me by a constituent on any of these matters. It may be that I am in an unusual position, but I suspect not. It may be that the constituents of the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, in another part of Newcastle where he was a long-serving councillor, were somewhat more engaged with the minutiae of governance structures, but I am somewhat sceptical that that occurred even then. What is suggested in the amendment is effectively undefined and unworkable, and it is not something we can support. I regret to say that when the Minister, as I expect she will, says that it is not necessary or that she does not understand it, or possibly both, I will concur with her entirely.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I am sorry to hear that the noble Lord will regret that we concur; we quite often concur. It is not at all unreasonable to consider that, as the elected representatives of those areas seeking devolutions work up their proposals, they will have considered carefully what the communities, local people and businesses in their areas want and expect. It is not at all unreasonable to believe that those elected representatives will have thought deeply about how to implement the proposals they are seeking, what those proposals will mean for those areas, and how those proposals will affect the local people who live or work in those areas. We can be confident that local representatives have ensured that they have engaged with their communities and their electorate to whatever degree, and in whatever manner, they judge necessary in respect of the many different elements that may be in the proposals they put to the Secretary of State.
In these unprecedented processes to deliver devolution, it is not right that we start inserting detailed requirements about the Secretary of State having to second-guess those democratically elected locally, or to be required to form a view as to whether, in his opinion, those democratically elected local representatives have acted as they should. Therefore, I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw this amendment.
Lord Shipley
I am grateful for the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Beecham. I will say two things in response. First, perhaps he would like to have a conversation with the noble Lord, Lord Woolmer, who took a very different view a moment ago about the importance of consulting local people. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Woolmer. If you want a government structure to stand the test of time with public support, the public has to be engaged at an early stage rather than a later stage. The second point I make to the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, is that some combined authorities are now undertaking the very same consultations that I was talking about. Indeed, the one very close to the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, in the north-east of England is undertaking a public consultation about future governance arrangements. I welcome that. It is hugely helpful that it does.
We will reflect on what has been said and possibly come back with something on Report, but for the moment I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, on this occasion, I am happy to support the amendment from the Liberal Democrat Benches. The noble Baroness has made a perfectly sound case and, indeed, one that should be extended wider in the sense that, as I understand it, the deal that will be offered to local authorities will be the kind that was imposed on Bristol; namely, that once a mayoral system is adopted, it will be permanent. That is wholly unsatisfactory.
If the previous amendment we debated had been confined to the issues of mayoralty, for example, as opposed to the internal workings of the authority, I would have been a great deal more sympathetic to what the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, was moving. However, it seems indefensible that a structure can be created and imposed, effectively, on a local community and its electorate with no possibility of change as the price for whatever deal the Government agree to negotiate with the combined authority. I hope again that the Government will think twice before locking local government into a system without not merely having consulted the electorate but without having their approval, let alone that of the constituent authorities.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, I have listened with interest to the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Janke, and the noble Lord, Lord Beecham. I know that the noble Baroness feels strongly about providing the people of Bristol with the same opportunities to change their system of governance should they so choose by means of a valid petition for a governance referendum to the council. I am aware that during the passage of the Deregulation Bill through this House in February 2015, she tabled a similar amendment. I am also aware that she introduced on 8 June a Private Member’s Bill, the Referendums (Local Authority Governance) Bill, that would have the same effect.
As we have discussed in the past, we cannot accept this amendment on the grounds of both precedent and principle. The precedent for introducing mayoral governance following a referendum instigated by Parliament was set when the London mayor was established. In this case, Parliament instigated a referendum through enacting primary legislation. The electors then voted for London having a mayor and, by a further Act of Parliament, the arrangements were introduced. There is no provision in these arrangements for the people of London to vote that they no longer want a mayor.
The Government followed the same broad precedent in putting in place the legislative arrangements that have led to the establishment of mayoral governance in the city of Bristol. In this case, Parliament, through approving by a resolution of both Houses an appropriate order under the Local Government Act 2000, instigated a referendum. The people of Bristol voted for a mayor, and that form of mayoral governance was established under the Local Government Act 2000. As in the case of the London mayor, mayoral governance in Bristol can be changed only by an Act of Parliament.
Lord Beecham
What particular knowledge does Parliament have about the condition of Bristol? Whence does it derive its intimate knowledge and concern for the residents of that city? Why should Parliament refuse to allow them a voice? The Government contrived a referendum, and it went the way they wanted, but is that to remain immutable? It seems a terrible proposition when Parliament can release the authority and return the decision to the people of the city.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
The point that I was making was that Parliament had created this situation so it would be for Parliament to undo it. That is not to say that it could not be undone, but it would have to be undone by Parliament.
Baroness Janke
I thank the Minister for her response. I am clear that Parliament cannot bind itself to future legislation. I am grateful that the Minister has made the case clear. I should like to be advised what parliamentary action could be taken, certainly before Report. It is important to gain trust in moving to the new combined authorities, so will the Minister consider ways in which we might change this anomalous situation and move forward on the same basis as everyone else? I beg to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Shipley
My Lords, the amendment aims to help drive forward positive progress on devolution within England. It says that the Secretary of State should,
“lay before each House of Parliament each year a report about devolution”.
It suggests that:
“The Secretary of State may by regulations make provision for an Independent Commission or Advisory Board”,
to undertake a review and perform an advisory role in assessing at a national level and across Whitehall what has been achieved.
Broadly speaking, the amendment derives from the conclusions of the City Growth Commission, which established five progress tests on devolution in England—the first on funding, the second on Civil Service and parliamentary reform, the third on partnerships, the fourth on speed and direction of travel and the fifth on cities’ capacity. The aim of our amendment is to help the process and the aims that the City Growth Commission put in place. I beg to move.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, this is an enabling Bill to put in place the primary legislative framework for the devolution of powers and budgets in England to boost local growth in England. Devolution in Wales is to be subject to separate legislation which the Government are committed to bringing before the House. The question of the devolution of powers to areas within Wales will largely be a matter for the Welsh Government and the National Assembly for Wales.
More fundamentally, as we discussed in earlier debates on this Bill, while it is important that Parliament should be able to question and hold the Government to account both on their pursuit of devolution and decentralisation and on the progress being made in those areas which have agreed devolution deals, a statutory requirement on the Secretary of State to report annually is not necessary. There are already mechanisms by which Parliament can ask Ministers to account for anything within their remit. These are opportunities that both noble Lords and Members of the other place take regularly.
A process for evaluating the progress of devolution deals will be discussed with each area on a case-by-case basis. For example, as part of its devolution deal, Greater Manchester will be required to put in place an extensive programme of evaluation agreed by the Treasury. There will be public documents available to all with an interest in the area on the progress it is making. Accordingly, it is not necessary to place statutory duties on the Secretary of State, which would be a duplication of a well-tried process.
With that explanation, I hope the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Shipley
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for her response. We will look carefully at what she has said and consider whether there is a need to pursue this matter further on Report. For the moment, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)
My Lords, I declare that I am an elected member of Lewisham Council in south London. This has been an interesting debate but changing the voting system to a form of PR is not something that I am in favour of, although this would be only for the election of councillors in England.
In 2011, we did of course have a referendum on moving to a new system for elections to the House of Commons. The system put forward was AV. I know that that is not a proportional system but it was the system agreed by the then coalition Government, put to a referendum of the voters of the United Kingdom and rejected. There is nothing that I have heard in this debate or elsewhere that makes me think there has been a change in the heart of the voters in England and that what people want is to elect their councillors by single transferable vote, having stuck with first past the post elections to Westminster only three years ago. I did, however, agree with the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, when he talked of looking at governance structures from time to time. I think that that is right. That does not take me down the road of moving to single transferable votes for the election of councillors.
There are issues, as the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, referred to, about the number of voting systems that we use to elect people to various public bodies, positions and Parliaments in the United Kingdom. Where a body is elected by a proportional system, it should remain a proportional system, but I would like to reduce the number of systems we use. It is very confusing for the voter to elect people when we are using, at least, first past the post, single transferable vote, closed list systems, top-up lists and the supplementary vote. Supplementary vote is one of the worst voting systems we use. I have been to many counts where the supplementary vote system was used. There are often a considerable number of spoilt ballot papers because people put the X in the second column instead of the first column so the vote is completely discarded, which is a bad thing. I do not think that these people intend to spoil their ballot papers; it is just that they have not understood that they need to put an X in the first column and then one in the second column as well.
Could the noble Baroness in her response make reference to the myriad voting systems we now have in the United Kingdom and how that could be a little less confusing for the voter? I am sure that from the Dispatch Box we are all agreed that changing the system for the election of councillors in England is not something that either of us supports. Nor is there evidence that it is something that the public want. At this stage, there is no need to move down that road.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, we debated this previously in earlier debates. Amendment 47 would amend the Representation of the People Act 1983 to provide that all local elections in England and Wales would be by single transferable vote.
For the single transferable vote system to function effectively, multi-member electoral areas would be required. As many existing electoral areas in England have only one councillor representing them—for example, nearly all county councils—it would require a review of local government electoral areas in England by the Local Government Boundary Commission for England. It could therefore not be introduced, even if it were desirable, within any short timescale. It would also cost more and take longer to achieve a result because of the more complicated count processes.
The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, asked me to list the myriad electoral systems. The Mayor of London is elected by the supplementary vote system. European elections use the d’Hondt system of PR and local government is first past the post. That is three that I can name; I am sure that there are more. But I hope that on the basis of this short debate, the noble Lord will feel content to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Shipley
My Lords, I listened to the very brief response from the Minister. This will be an issue that we will want to come back to on Report. I find it difficult to understand why this is deemed a step too far in England and Wales when it is not a step too far in Scotland and has proved to be an enormous success. There are occasions when we should learn from the Scottish experience, for example with participation rates, an abolition of uncontested elections and an end to one-party domination. Of course, in the context of first past the post at parliamentary level, we have a one-party state out of Scotland with all but three seats in the hands of one political party. If we had proportional representation using an STV system in the parliamentary elections in Scotland, that would not be the case. In local government there is STV and it has had a profound and positive effect.
Our concern throughout this Committee has been to prevent absolute power through the elected mayor, combined authority and the overview and scrutiny function lying with the same political party. In some cases, a combined authority would have no opposition councillors of any kind on it, caused by the voting system that we are using. I give notice that I think we will come back to this on Report—but, having said that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Shipley
I add two facts for ministerial consideration. One fact that really struck me about the Scottish referendum was the very high turnout rate of 75% of 16 and 17 year-olds, when for the 18 to 24 year-old age group it was only 54%. That is very marked. What it demonstrates is a clear interest in current affairs and their futures. The question is whether an age group that can demonstrate such a commitment to thinking about their future should be denied a vote generally.
Secondly, decisions are made regularly by local councils which impact on the daily lives of 16 to 18 year-olds. A very good example is the cost of public transport for young people—the cost of bus services, urban rail systems and so on. I have come to the conclusion that the voice of those young people is not adequately heard. I am in favour of votes at 16 and have been for many years, but I am even clearer now that the time has come to implement the change that Scotland has trail-blazed.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, there is no doubt that the Scottish referendum and debate was unique, certainly in my lifetime, in engaging the public in the way it did. Participation in that election by people from all age groups, including 16 and 17 year-olds, was like nothing we have ever seen before. We can all look at it, wonder why we do not engage better with people from all age groups and reflect upon it. Amendment 48 would change the franchise for those entitled to vote in local elections in England and Wales to include 16 and 17 year-olds. As we have discussed, the Bill provides that the franchise for electing mayors for a mayoral combined authority is the same as that for all local elections in England, where the voting age is 18.
More broadly, of course, the voting age for parliamentary elections is set at 18, and beyond that the voting age in most democracies, including most member states in the EU, is also 18. Only Austria in the EU allows voting for 16 year-olds. We have heard the argument about the franchise in Scotland, but this was decided in Scotland, as is its devolved right, just as it is right that decisions about the franchise for elections that take place in England should be decided by this Parliament. I am sorry to be a party pooper at this time of night, but the Government have no plans to lower the minimum voting age and I am clear that the Bill is not the place to take steps to change the arrangements for local elections. I am sure that even proponents of lowering the voting age to 16 agree that, were it to happen, it should be only following detailed debate.
I have not read the report on IER but I wholeheartedly agree with the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, about EROs engaging in getting people in general registered to vote, and certainly those younger age groups. On that basis I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, will feel happy to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
My Lords, I am pleased about the Minister’s final remarks, because I think the drop is catastrophic: 47% have dropped out in just over a year and that collapse is a consequence of IER. We have to deal with that; it is catastrophic.
Lord Tope (LD)
My Lords, I added my name to this amendment but, sadly, too late to get it printed on the Marshalled List. As a long-time London councillor, I am more than pleased to support the purpose of the amendment which, as the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, said, has come from London Councils. I am very grateful to the noble Lord for describing the briefing so fully. At this time of night I am certainly not going to repeat all that, but I would like to emphasise some of it.
At Second Reading, I made particular reference to the position in London. As currently drafted, the Bill clearly does not fit with the unique structure of London government. However, that is not, in itself, a reason why we should not enable further devolution to London and within it and the Bill does not quite meet that. In response to me at Second Reading, the Minister said:
“London boroughs are absolutely not precluded from coming forward with their ideas for devolution”.—[Official Report, 8/6/15; col. 717.]
I am sure that she intended to include the Greater London Authority as well as the London boroughs. It is all very well to say they will come forward with their proposals for devolution. As the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, said, they have been working on this jointly for some time now and will come forward with proposals. However, the proposals may well reach agreement, not just between the boroughs and the GLA but with the Government as well, but if the legislative structure is not there to enable them to be put into place, it is going to be a very frustrating exercise. The Bill is the obvious opportunity to ensure that the legislative framework is there to enable that further devolution to happen in London.
The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, made a couple of specific references to what the GLA and London boroughs have in mind. I will repeat it specifically, because I want the Minister to assure us tonight, either that the legislative provision is already there under existing legislation or, if it is not, that they will seriously consider ensuring that there is provision in this Bill. This is an opportunity we have to take. Specifically, as the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, said, they want provision to enable a joint partnership between London boroughs and the mayor. This is not just permission to co-operate. They can do that without permission. It is to have the governance arrangements necessary to implement that.
Secondly, we are already familiar with a lot of joint working between a number of London boroughs, but we are talking about the creation of joint partnerships between them. Again, we are not simply saying, “It is a good thing; get on with it”. That is happening already and has been for some years. We are talking now about the creation of the necessary statutory governance arrangements to make it happen.
This is the legislative opportunity to do this, if that provision is not already there. London Councils and the GLA, on whose advice I act, do not believe it is. If we do not do it in this Bill, it is a missed opportunity. It is quite likely that there will not be another opportunity in this Parliament and there is no reason at all why London should be left out of the move to devolution simply because it has a different structure to the rest of the country.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, I am very happy to use this probing amendment to set out how I see the position in relation to London. I did indeed say at Second Reading that there was nothing to preclude London boroughs or the GLA from coming forward. Perhaps I will expand on that slightly this evening. It is for the London mayor and the boroughs to continue to work together and to agree proposals, which the noble Lord tells me are ready, for greater devolution of powers to London. These could include provision to transfer public authority functions to a joint committee of councils or the establishment of a joint board between the boroughs and the mayor. We will consider whatever the mayor and London boroughs wish to propose, and no doubt they will be making a strong case as to how any proposal they make would provide better outcomes for Londoners. As with any other area, we are ready to have conversations with them, and look forward to those proposals coming forward.
The amendment, however, would turn the process on its head, because it would be the Secretary of State who kicked things off with his report. This is not the approach that we want to follow, as I am sure noble Lords will have established by now, because we believe that such an approach is far less likely to deliver genuine and effective devolution that will improve to the greatest extent the outcomes places face and the economic performance of particular areas.
I hope that on that note the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw the amendment.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Tope, for his support for this amendment and to the Minister for her reply. If I understood it, I think she was saying that under what is proposed it will be perfectly feasible that the boroughs and the GLA et cetera simply need to come forward and make their case. However, is she saying that what is sought under the new arrangements does not require any change to primary legislation? That is the issue here. Perhaps she could just answer that specifically.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, as far as I am aware, it does not. I draw noble Lords’ attention to the manifesto commitments on further devolution to the London mayor as well. I hope that that reassures noble Lords.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
I am grateful for that and think that I am reassured by it. I think that it needs a quieter reading than at this hour—perhaps in the morning on the train. If, effectively, it does not need primary legislative change, that is fine. I think that we still have scope to bring something more specific back at Report if that proves not to be the case. I know that the Minister is stacking up lots of meetings at the moment, but it would be very helpful to have a specific meeting with London Councils, to make sure that the case it is making is fully heard and that it understands the technical position that she has outlined.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, before amendments are withdrawn et cetera, I can confirm that, and have actually already started to have a conversation with one London authority.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.