Lord Scriven
Main Page: Lord Scriven (Liberal Democrat - Life peer)Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [HL]
Lord Scriven Excerpts
Lord Beecham (Lab)
My Lords, there is a good deal of sense in this amendment. Of course, there are areas—my own is one of them—in which transport issues were effectively run, so far as the Metro system is concerned, for many years by the local authorities before the combined authority came into being. The combined authority currently oversees the function. In relation to roads in particular, I said at an earlier stage of the Bill that, in my part of the world at any rate, the experience of local authorities with Highways England—as I now understand it to be, as opposed to the Highways Agency—is far from satisfactory. What would be the relationship there? Would it be a direct relationship with the combined authorities—Highways England is not really organised on a basis comparable to local government—or would it be via the Secretary of State? It is a matter that needs clarifying. The general thrust in this is one which we would support.
Lord Scriven (LD)
My Lords, I am pleased to put my name to this amendment and I thank my noble friend Lord Teverson for outlining the reason why it is necessary. On the face of it, it would not seem necessary to have such an amendment, apart from the announcement made last week with regard to major transport infrastructure and electrification of all the rails in the north of England. Let us assume that we have this new system of decentralisation or devolution, and a number of combined authorities and mayors are making significant investments in their areas with regard to the environment and the economy, having been promised that major infrastructure will be invested in to make their rail system faster and the major cities of the north connected, and to help economic activity and to speed up the way in which commuters and other people can travel.
Let us further assume that, with no consultation or prior warning, the Government pull that major investment, or pause it or kick it into the long grass—whatever phrase is used. For several years, combined authorities and mayors might have been making strategic investments about the location of economic zones or other infrastructure that fits on to the railways in which the Government said that they would invest. That is why the provision needs to be in the Bill. The Minister said that such things would of course be discussed and a requirement did not need to be written into the Bill, but we now have a real case in which dozens of leaders in the north of England have not been consulted about a major change in government infrastructure funding.
We have gone from the northern powerhouse to the northern power cut in the blink of an eye. We are talking about devolution and decentralisation in which significant responsibilities and money for transport will be handed down to local areas, and strategic decisions will be made not in a vacuum but in relation to national government infrastructure. Local areas will be not only consulted but seen as equal partners so that their investments and plans are taken into consideration when the Government invest; and so that the Government keep local areas informed truthfully, openly and honestly about decisions on infrastructure, whether roads, rail, ports or aviation. This is not a made-up scenario; it is a real scenario that happened last week. It is important that it is written into the Bill that areas that have devolved powers should be consulted or warned about government transport infrastructure decisions, and that the area’s ideas are fed into the national plan.
I am happy to support the amendment and I ask the Minister to accept it. Last week shows exactly why the amendment needs to be in the Bill. We need to enable not just the Government but combined authorities, which will be making significant decisions about their local transport systems, to make strategic decisions.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)
My Lords, I will respond first to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Scriven. I will talk later about the Northern Hub and my perspective on it, having worked on it some years ago.
The amendment is not necessary because existing legislation already enables the Secretary of State to confer by order transport functions on a combined authority. In such circumstances, a combined authority with strategic responsibilities is able to make representations about decisions that are likely to impact on its area and how it exercises those transport functions should it decide to do so. On the point about combined authorities being consulted, I can confirm that, wherever appropriate, the Government would expect to consult all local authorities, not just combined authorities, on new infrastructure in their area, whether that be transport or otherwise.
However, the Government must have discretion to take decisions about the future and prioritisation of national assets across the country, some of which—for instance rails and roads, to which the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, referred—run through many local authority areas. Of course we would expect to engage with local areas on the impact of such changes. One of the advantages a combined authority brings is that it enables the Government to focus their engagement on issues such as transport with a single body that can represent its constituent authorities on strategic responsibilities across a wider area.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I cannot confirm that those local authorities had any inkling—there is no one from Manchester or Leeds here this evening—but, as I tried to say earlier, the Northern Hub, as a project, is well under way. This aspect of it has been paused—not stopped—and I fully expect it to continue.
Lord Scriven
The purpose of the amendment is not to say that it has not altered. Let me give a practical example. If a local authority, LEP or combined authority agreed with a multinational investor a decision about the placing of a factory or economic unit and then out of the blue, without any consultation or pre-warning, this major transport electrification on which the investment is predicated was postponed, what would that look like to the international investor? How do the combined authority and the mayor respond? The whole purpose of this Bill is for the mayor to have some form of accountability and authority to deliver on the powers that are handed down or in partnership with national bodies.
The amendment does not ask for them to override. It says that if something like this happens, it is in the Bill that the Government, as a matter of courtesy and of strategic planning with that combined authority and mayor, will pre-warn and discuss some strategic changes that may be made so that they can reassure people who are either investing there, or there already, rather than being left startled and unable to answer the significant questions that investors will be asking.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I take the noble Lord’s point that if an international investor was reliant upon the fact that the Government had made an announcement about something and then a mayor or combined authority proceeded in that way, it would be very difficult. I have just been passed a note about the Transport Secretary, who gave evidence to the Transport Select Committee in March. He was at that point raising concerns about the cost and the programme delays on the TransPennine link and First Great Western. Transport Ministers answer questions on rail issues all the time. Uncertainty is a natural part of a huge programme; I think that all noble Lords would accept that. The timetable is subject to continuous review as plans develop and the Transport Minister has set out his plan for addressing, not scrapping, the situation. I hope that that comforts the noble Lord.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Lab)
My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow my noble friend. I agree with much of what he was saying, especially in relation to county regions. I apologise for not having participated in the debate beforehand, but much of it has of course been about metropolitan areas and the growth spur needed for them. I fear that in county areas we will be left behind even more, so I hope that the Government will soon come out with some ideas about what they will be doing about county regions, because those are fundamental to the well-being of our country as a whole.
The Explanatory Memorandum clearly states that the Bill is to,
“support delivery of the Government’s manifesto commitment to ‘devolve powers and budgets to boost local growth in England’, in particular … ‘economic development’”.
That is absolutely fine and we could agree with it all over the Chamber. However, the potential of devolution is far more than economic. It should be about much more than our economic well-being. It should be about the devolution of power not just to local politicians but to communities and citizens. It should be about the devolution of functions and powers to the lowest possible level, and about empowering citizens. It is an opportunity to reconnect people with politics and to help restore trust in our system of governance. Like all noble Lords, I am concerned about the rise of populism in this country—indeed, throughout the European Union—and my amendment seeks to address people’s feelings of distance and alienation, albeit in a very small way. This is about a new politics, a new way of doing politics, which I believe is necessary for the democratic well-being of our country.
I draw noble Lords’ attention to an excellent publication by Claudia Chwalisz of the Policy Network and the Barrow Cadbury Trust entitled The Populist Signal: Why Politics and Democracy Need to Change. Drawing on new survey data in the UK as well as interviews and case studies, the publication shows that people are concerned with the process of politics, not merely its performance, and that they have genuine desire for greater political participation in the decision-making process. It cites examples of interactive forums such as citizens’ assemblies, which allow political institutions to involve citizens in making decisions that affect them. These are not a threat to formal systems of government but much-needed additions to enrich democracy. People might not trust politics, politicians and policies, but they do want to be engaged in decision-making about the services that most affect them.
Young people in particular want a different way of doing things in place of the hierarchical, top-down ways of traditional politics and governance. It seems to me that the Bill could provide an opportunity to encourage local government to devolve powers to local communities and citizens. When people feel, as they do, that the current system does not work for them, populism comes to the fore. The devolution of power to the people is a means of countering the simplistic attractions of the populists, who are feeding off anger and a politics of grievance. This means that politicians at local as well as national level must loosen their grip on power, not just between different levels of government but directly to communities and to individuals as well. It means empowering people and giving them a voice. By this I do not mean consulting local people and then taking no notice of their views; I mean involving them in making important political decisions and enabling them to shape their local services.
There are already some excellent examples of where this sort of policy has been successful. I am sure that many noble Lords can cite examples. I know that my honourable friend Steve Reed, when leader of the council in Lambeth, shared power with, for example, tenants on local estates and with young people in respect of youth provision in their locality. I know that Councillor Sharon Taylor, the excellent leader of Stevenage Council, is doing likewise.
I recognise that it will take some time to familiarise people, including elected politicians, with the idea that “ordinary citizens” can and should be involved in making important political decisions and being properly empowered. Voting, in terms of engagement, is not working, and we have to find new ways of engaging people. It is all very well for us to consider the devolution of power and budgets, but it is the citizens of our country whose views must be taken into consideration. Their voices must be heeded. In doing so, the Government and local government would help to bridge the widening gap between people and politicians, as well as improving their citizens and their lives. The amendment before us now would go some way to addressing these problems, and I hope that the Government will take it into account.
Lord Scriven
I will very quickly say that I fully support everything that the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, said. When I was leader of Sheffield City Council, we did things such as devolution down to citizens and communities, participatory budgeting, restorative justice—all the things that gave people not just power but actually a stake in the community—and they became authors of a better communities and better well-being where they are. I fully support that, because at times we talk about devolution but we talk about it to a body rather than actually empowering our citizens and our communities to be part of that.
Following on from that, I would just like to comment on some of the things that the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, said. He talked about not wanting to impose, but then spoke for quite a long time about one county—his own—coming around to a unitary authority, and what that might mean. He said that he did not want the Secretary of State to dictate, but that is exactly what Amendment 44L would do. The Minister has heard me for the last few days talking about things that I want in the Bill. This time I shall probably support her saying that she does not want this in the Bill. Amendment 44L would completely change everything about an empowering and enabling Bill. It says that,
“where there is no agreement by all the local authorities to whom the regulations are to apply on the arrangements under subsection (1), the Secretary of State may make provision for unitary governance arrangements based on recommendations of a body appointed by the Secretary of State”.
That basically means dictation if there is no agreement in that area. That is what the amendment actually says.
Lord Liddle
Could I just make clear what I thought I had made clear in my speech? I was not saying that the only model that was possible was a unitary authority for the whole of Cumbria.
Lord Scriven
I understand what the noble Lord says, but the Bill says that when there is disagreement you would be pushing for unitary authorities or an authority—one or more—in an area where that might not be needed. That is what Amendment 44L would dictate would happen if there was no agreement. It could be one unitary or two or three unitary authorities within the area. The principle of having an amendment that forces unitary authorities on areas that do not want them is not in the spirit of how I see devolution.
Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)
My Lords, we have Amendments 44G and 45A in this group, to which I shall speak first. Amendment 44G is an attempt to address in part the concerns expressed by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee at paragraph 17 of its first report this Session. Again drawing attention to the wide powers in Clause 10, the committee states:
“We are not convinced that requiring the consent of the local authorities affected is by itself a sufficient control over the very wide powers conferred by clause 10. In our view the delegation is inappropriate without the exercise of the powers being made subject to similar constraints and protections as those which apply to the establishment of a combined authority under Part 6 of the 2009 Act”.
The amendment that we are talking about requires that when exercising the power under Clause 10 the Secretary of State must,
“reflect the identities and interests of local communities and to secure effective and convenient local government”.
It is difficult to see why the Government should object to any of that. Since then, and only today, just before the Committee met, we had the opportunity to see the Government’s reply to the committee’s deliberations, in which the Minister says that these regulations are not of themselves establishing new structures or governance arrangements but modifying where all the councils concerned consent to processes for merging authorities, creating unitary authorities and reducing the number of councillors to fast-track these processes. This is not a sufficient distinction to say that we should eschew the recognition that these processes should reflect the identities and interests of local government.
Amendment 45A is also addressed by the DPRR report and would remove the subsection that removes the denial of the hybrid procedure. We know that this is not unusual in legislation. Indeed, in the case of Ebbsfleet, for a limited period, with our reluctant agreement, it was instigated, but there is normally, surely, an alternative mandatory consultation process that is laid down as a substitute. That is what happened in the case of Ebbsfleet. Where is the process in that situation? On what basis is the hybrid instrument process, if applicable, to be denied if there is no alternative procedure on offer?
Amendment 44F, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, seems entirely reasonable to us, and the Minister may say whether it is necessary to provide specifically for this in legislation. Are not associate membership arrangements already in operation in certain circumstances?
Amendment 46A, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, in part mirrors an early amendment that we tabled. We have no great objection to the establishment of an independent commission to review and advise on the progress of devolution, but we need to be mindful of not creating another tier of bureaucracy and a process that might drive uniformity on these matters. My noble friend Lady Royall is right to focus on how devolution is working for communities and individuals. Putting decision-making and policy formation closer to communities and individuals and getting their engagement is one of the fundamental reasons for embarking on this process, or should be. Of course, it will be an evolving process and nowhere near complete in six months, although we need to give it impetus from the beginning.
As for the issues raised by my noble friend Lord Liddle, I fully understand the desire to have a single-tier or unitary authority. I know that in our own local case in Luton it has transformed the opportunity to deliver and join up services in the town. The difficulty that we face, whether it is a county council seeking unitary status or the reverse, is that just one council holding out and not agreeing negates the opportunity of Clause 10, but I say to my noble friend that it operates in two directions. If our noble friend Lady Hollis were here she would say in no uncertain terms that having the need for unanimity has destroyed the opportunity for Norwich to get unitary status.
I think I may have a way through this, and perhaps the Minister might comment. I am not sure that the provisions are still in operation, but about six years ago there were successful attempts to get unitary status for Exeter and Norwich. The enlightened Government of the day supported it, but unfortunately it was judicially reviewed, and when the coalition Government—the coalition of Liberal Democrats and Conservatives—came in they overturned the decision. There is a serious point here: there are big towns and significant cities, such as Cambridge, Norwich and Exeter, that believe that any decent economic analysis shows that they can deliver more effectively for their communities if they are part of a unitary authority. In a sense, my noble friend’s amendment to deny the need for unanimity would have its problem in one direction or the other.
I entirely accept the point that we would not want to leave it up to the Secretary of State in any unfettered way, but should we not be thinking perhaps of establishing some criteria such as those that were certainly applicable at that time, as I recall: an assessment of whether the cities involved could benefit from unitary status and whether it added value to their communities? Certainly, that was the initial assessment in the case of Norwich and Exeter. Perhaps revisiting some such criteria, if those procedures are not still around, might be worth while. I accept entirely that devolution to county regions is party policy, and heaven forfend that I should not support party policy. We can see the benefit of unitary status for counties, but it is a two-way street and it can have an impact in the other direction.
My noble friend referred to “tiny district councils” being largely powerless, but they are seemingly not so powerless when they can stop a unitary authority. However, we are not talking about tiny district councils; we are talking about significant district councils that are being denied the opportunity of unitary status and all that that could bring, just as it could to a unitary county council in Cumbria.