Football Governance Bill [HL]

Baroness Twycross Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 18th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Markham (Con)]

My Lords, I rise to move Amendment 251 in my name and to speak to Amendments 257 and 258 from my noble friend Lord Parkinson.

Amendment 251 seeks to place a limit on the rate of interest the regulator may charge on any unpaid levies. I think all noble Lords have agreed that we want to keep the regulator fees and cost burden on clubs as low as possible, so having a reasonable rate of interest seems helpful. The proposal is that we take the formula the Government currently use for tuition fees, and which is proposed for the tobacco levy, which is the RPI rate plus 2%. I am not absolutely wedded to that figure, but we believe there should be a figure we can all agree on.

Amendment 257 from my noble friend Lord Parkinson would remove the provision whereby the regulator does not have to consult on changing the levy if it considers the change to be minor. We understand the intent behind that provision, but all sorts of discussions could then be got into about what is minor and what is not, so it is probably easier just to establish that it be properly consulted on if there is a change.

Amendment 258 is pretty straightforward. It seeks to establish that if the regulator plans to change the levy rules, it gives six months’ notice before the chargeable period begins. We have said a number of times that we want clubs to improve their financial budgeting and planning, and this would help them to do that. With those simple changes, I beg to move.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Twycross) (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lords, Lord Markham and Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay, for their amendments concerning the levy. On Amendment 251 from the noble Lord, Lord Markham, setting the rate of interest charged on non-payment of the levy is an operational decision for the regulator, which needs the flexibility to charge interest at a rate that deters non-payment. A rate that is too low could increase the incentive for non-payment and jeopardise the regulator’s ability to carry out its functions. The level of interest charged would be subject to the same consultation requirements as the levy itself. This will ensure a firm but fair level of interest.

Amendment 257, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay, would require the regulator to consult every regulated club and others such as the Secretary of State and the Treasury on minor changes to the levy rules. These would be immaterial amendments or replacements to levy rules, such as correcting mistakes. Going out to gather the views of all clubs feels like it would be a disproportionate burden on clubs and on the regulator. For material changes, the Bill already requires the regulator to consult as appropriate. No club, especially those in the National League, wants the administrative burden of unnecessary consultation.

Finally, on Amendment 258 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Markham, requiring the regulator to publish its levy charge six months before the chargeable period would create an operational challenge. The regulator would have to estimate a levy charge having only half a year’s costs to base it on. This could lead to inaccurate levy charges, which could see the regulator underfunded or clubs needlessly burdened. The current requirement of charges being publicised as soon as reasonably practicable strikes the right balance, we feel, between adequate notice for clubs and operational flexibility for the regulator to ensure an accurate and appropriate levy charge.

I therefore hope that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Goodman of Wycombe (Con)]

My Lords, it is relatively late in the evening and we have debated a lot of clauses and amendments, but I agree with my noble friend Lord Maude that this debate is at the heart of the Bill, at least as far as the Premier League, the Football League and the clubs themselves are concerned, I suspect. What will really get them going in relation to the Bill is not, for better or worse, net zero, diversity or any of those things but the money; it is what happens to the money and the success or failure of their clubs.

When the Minister responds, she will make the best case she can for what is in the Bill—for the backstop—and I understand that. However, when we finish Committee and go on to Report, and when eventually the Bill passes, the debate will not be over; it is just beginning. Once the Bill is passed, as I assume it will be, my noble friend Lady Brady will continue to make her case broadly for the present arrangements and the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, will be back to make his case for what my noble friend Lord Markham called the front-stop, while the Government will defend the backstop—and so the debate will go on.

One of the lobby groups that has an interest in the Bill said of it that the debate is over. I found that a remarkable statement, given that this House presumably has a duty to scrutinise legislation and the Bill has not even been down to the other place yet. My point at this stage is that the debate is not over. It will not be over in Committee, on Report or after Third Reading; it will just be beginning. I ask noble Lords to bear this in mind when we come back, later in Committee, to consider clauses that seek to review the Bill as a whole.

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

I thank my noble friends Lady Taylor of Bolton and Lord Bassam of Brighton for their amendments on this important topic. I thank my noble friend for outlining why distributions are so important to the football pyramid. I will aim to take the amendments in a sensible order, with logical grouping where possible. In appreciating comments on the size of the group, I note that there is a logic to this, as outlined by my noble friend, and I say to the noble Lord, Lord Markham, that I do not think we have skimped on debate during Committee—though I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Goodman, both that the hour is getting late and that it does not feel like the debate has finished or will finish any time soon.

I acknowledge the probing intent of the amendments and it is really helpful to have this debate. I know that subsequent groups will go into this a bit more as well. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Addington, that it is important that we do our absolute best to work through the issues that noble Lords have raised and to get the regulator right, which was the point that he made.

I reassure my noble friends that we agree on the importance of regulatory intervention on distributions— I appreciate that not all noble Lords have exactly the same view of this. Amendments 260, 269, 270, 293, 295 and 288 would broaden the powers that the regulator has to intervene by allowing it to trigger the back- stop process. I understand the intention behind the amendments, but we must maintain the backstop process as a last resort, to be triggered by the leagues only if they cannot come to an agreement themselves.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)]

The noble Baroness keeps saying that, and I understand that it is what we hoped was going to happen, but I do not think that anyone in this Committee believes that it will be a last resort. From the briefings that all noble Lords—including, I am sure, the Minister—have had from all sides, we know that the backstop is likely to be triggered very early on by the regulator. I really hope the Minister can move from what we hoped might be the position to where I think we are, whether we like it or not, and look at these processes on the basis of what is likely to happen. This could be one of the first things that the regulator has to deal with.

We have heard concerns about the nature of the conversations and the way that those might set up leagues against one another. I know that the Minister would hope that it was a last resort, as I think we all did, but I urge her to accept that if we are being genuinely honest—and other noble Lords may have heard differently from the various leagues we have all been speaking to—it seems to be a view that this is likely to happen. It would be much more helpful for our discussions if we could stop saying, “It’s a last resort”, and accept that it is very likely to happen quicker than we all wanted.

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

I appreciate that the noble Baroness, Lady Evans, may take a different view and I completely understand people’s concerns that it will be a front-stop—as a spoiler alert, and with apologies to my noble friend, I am not going to accept these amendments; we will come to that in a moment. However, we genuinely think that the model we have established is very similar, apart from the possible inclusion of the parachute payment—for want of a better word; it is not the phrase used in the Bill, but that escapes me for a moment—should the “state of the game” report suggest to the regulator that it needs to allow that to be taken into account.

My view is that the model we have presented should incentivise the leagues and the parties to come to an agreement themselves, and that opportunity to do so does not go away once the regulator is established. That is the design of the model and an essential part of it, as it was in the previous iteration of the Bill, so this is absolutely intended as a backstop process. We can go on to debate that in later groups as well as in this group. I am happy to do that and to meet people individually to go through why we think this will be a backstop and not a front-stop whereby the minute the regulator sets off in motion, everybody will claim that they want to have the backstop triggered.

However, there are things that the regulator will need to take into account if somebody asks for the backstop process to be triggered. It is not the necessarily the case that the regulator would have to accept that that process was set in motion. The whole model is designed around the principle of trying to get people to come to an agreement themselves. It is really important to ensure—

[Baroness Brady (Con)]

I thank the Minister for giving way. If she was right, we would have a deal in place by now. This has been the model for two years, so it is definitely a barrier to conversations. There is a view that whatever the Premier League agrees with the Football League, that, in effect, becomes its insurance policy. It then triggers the backstop and goes straight to the regulator, knowing that it will never get less than it has been offered and could get more. We will be in a perpetually revolving door of triggering mechanisms that will never give any club any certainty of its income, which will be very dangerous and very bad for football.

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

It is important for us to go through how the regulator’s backstop powers and power of last resort would work. I appreciate that the noble Baroness is entirely right that an agreement has not come into place, and that might be—or might not be—because of people waiting to see what form the regulator takes and the exact iteration of the wide range of views we have heard tonight and on previous occasions.

If, under the Government’s intended model for the backstop, the relevant leagues cannot reach an agreement, they can apply to trigger the backstop—the noble Baroness is quite right on that. If certain high thresholds are met, of which the regulator must be satisfied, the backstop can be triggered, but let me go through what would happen first: the relevant leagues would enter a period of mediation and, if there was still no agreement, they would move to a final proposal stage.

[Baroness Brady (Con)]

I thank the Minister for allowing me to intervene. Rick Parry went before the Select Committee and said he would trigger the backstop in any event—even if he got more money from the Premier League in the meantime—because there is no risk to the EFL in the backstop.

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

I am not going to comment on what people did or did not say in that committee meeting at this point. The backstop would be applied only if certain high thresholds were met. The regulator will be an independent regulator and it will have strict measures to meet—high thresholds which it must be satisfied of if the backstop is to be triggered. If there is still no agreement, the parties will move to a final proposal stage and, at that point, the regulator would convene an independent expert panel and invite final proposals from both relevant leagues with accompanying analysis, and the independent expert panel would choose the most appropriate proposal. This model incentivises both parties to compromise, as unreasonable proposals would not be chosen.

The whole model, which is almost identical in every detail to how the previous Government were planning to do this, is intended—

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)]

The Minister keeps coming back to the previous model. I think most of us here thought the previous model was nuts, and we still think it is nuts. We never discussed this in the House, so to keep saying that is quite insulting to quite a lot of us who always thought this was a bad idea. We are trying to engage with the Minister now about why we think it is a bad idea, and we would really like her to talk about the detail rather than keep saying, “Well, it was your Government”. Honestly, I would never have voted for this beforehand and, in my ex-position, that would have probably been quite a bad thing, but I am sorry, I would not have done so. I would like the Minister to focus on what we are talking about rather than keep using those issues to deflect from getting into the detail.

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

I am not sure how many times I have said that this evening, but it is really not very many. I am trying to establish that this model has been worked on and discussed for some time. I appreciate that noble Lords in this House did not get the opportunity to discuss it under the previous Government. It is a model that has been worked through, with examples from different organisations. It encourages compromise and tries to get people to reach a deal that everybody can work through and which meets the criteria of the regulator.

[Lord Moynihan (Con)]

A model which creates tension does not get it right. We have already heard from Rick Parry that he would trigger it immediately. This is a model that does not work. We are trying to say to the Minister that Committee is an opportunity to take it away and rethink it. It really does not stack up to be a successful model for the future of English football.

I would really appreciate it if the Minister could take that away, think about it and come back to us with her reflections on everything she has heard this evening, from many people who are very knowledgeable about the future of English football and, indeed, its existence. I have real concerns that what is being proposed would be deeply damaging not only to English football but to the investment future of the game in England. Surely, she should take that into account.

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

Simply because one individual says that they would want to trigger it does not mean that the regulator would view the condition as being met.

[Lord Maude of Horsham (Con)]

With respect to the Minister, it was not just a random individual; it was a really significant player in the whole scheme of what we are talking about here.

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

I appreciate the noble Lord’s point, but if the EFL triggers the backstop or makes a proposal in bad faith, it could end up worse off if the Premier League’s proposal is more reasonable, so this does not encourage the EFL or Premier League to be confrontation or divisive. I am sure we will come back to this at a later stage, probably this evening, but definitely when we come back in the new year on Report.

I am really happy to sit down with noble Lords and talk this through, but I will continue to use my speaking notes for some time and then, I hope, give some reassurance that we are considering this carefully. I am always happy to meet with noble Lords, as is the team that has been working on this. As noble Lords are aware, a number of the officials working on this have been doing so right the way through from the fan-led review, so this is a really good example of the consistency of advice both to this Government and the previous Government, notwithstanding the fact that not everybody here liked the Bill’s previous iteration.

To return to my speaking notes—although I am fairly sure I have got slightly out of order now—we think that this approach encourages future collaboration. We might need to agree to disagree on that point and come back to that debate.

[Baroness Brady (Con)]

The Minister says that she believes that the mechanism will deliver collaboration. For my benefit, please could she name a single example of a binding final offer process working in UK regulatory terms, and its use in the UK to deliver the outcomes she is talking about?

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

The Competition and Markets Authority has used it.

The process proposed by this group of amendments, excluding Amendment 260, would allow the regulator to intervene at its discretion and would require it to take into account the potential use of any revenue distributed. It is the Government’s view that this is regulatory overreach and a fundamental change to the intent of the process as drafted.

The other amendments from my noble friends Lord Bassam and Lady Taylor seek to change the structure of the backstop process from a two-party mediation and final proposal/order process to one that could apply to any number of relevant parties. I understand the overall intent of these amendments and have chosen to address them as a group to ensure that that intent is understood comprehensively, and that the Government’s position is in turn communicated coherently.

To clarify, the Premier League, the English Football League and the National League can all apply to trigger the backstop process. Any of the specified competition organisers can submit an application to trigger the process, and simultaneous instances of the backstop process could be triggered to cover the relationships between each of the leagues. The process is inherently designed as a two-party process. Fundamentally, distribution agreements are agreed between two individual leagues and the process is designed to facilitate these agreements. As the final offer process is set up and designed between two parties to facilitate a decision between two proposals on the basis of relevant principles, it would not be effective for the regulator to engage in this process with more than two parties. This is also, in part, why it would not be appropriate for the regulator to make a third offer. Without the incentive of the two-proposal process, parties are likely to stay at polarised positions, rather than find areas for compromise. However, when the two proposals submitted are the only choices, the pragmatic decision is to submit the most reasonable proposal possible. This is the incentive we wish to create.

I now turn to Amendments 292, 296 and 314, tabled by my noble friends Lord Bassam and Lady Taylor of Bolton. While there is a slight difference between “special” and “compelling”, we are satisfied that the bar is set sufficiently high with the use of “special”, which is the more usual terminology in these sorts of provisions. There is likely to be no tangible difference in outcomes, and therefore these amendments would be minor, insignificant changes to the wording of the Bill. As such, the Government believe the current drafting is sufficient. This is also the case for Amendment 264. While we understand the intent behind this amendment, we are content that the current drafting in the Bill sufficiently captures all revenue relevant for consideration during the backstop process. The proposed drafting change would not capture any revenue sources not already captured by the existing wording.

I turn now to Amendments 261, 262, 276 and 315. Amendment 276 seeks to significantly broaden one of the conditions by which the backstop process could be triggered. Condition 2 is specifically designed to be triggered by a material reduction in relevant revenue, as this poses a significant threat to the financial sustainability of the pyramid. Amendment 315 would, if the distribution process was ended due to incomplete or inconsistent proposals, require the regulator to issue a distribution order based on its expert panel’s own proposal, rather than ending the process. This would prevent the regulator ending the final proposal stage without an order, even if both leagues have chosen not to submit proposals.

These amendments, and the others referenced, would increase the likelihood of an enforced rather than an agreed solution. The Government’s preference is for an industry-led solution. It is our view that the regulator should have a role in facilitating the final proposal process only where no agreement can be reached on distribution, and that the process should be the least interventionist it can be while remaining effective. This approach encourages future collaboration and prevents the leagues relying too heavily on the regulator in the future.

I turn now to Amendments 284 and 286. While I agree that the state of the game report is a usual source of information to be considered as part of the distribution agreement process, it is our position that these amendments are unnecessarily prescriptive. As it stands, the Bill does not make specific reference to the report being included as a potential question for consideration. However, the existing drafting does not in any way exclude consideration of the state of the game report, and the regulator must have regard to it as part of its general duties. I would expect the state of the game report to be considered by both the leagues applying to trigger the backstop process, and the regulator, given its relevance. However, to include this expectation beyond what is already set out in primary legislation would be inflexible.

Turning to Amendment 267, while the Government understand the broader intention to involve fans in as many areas of the Bill as possible, it would not be appropriate for the regulator to be mandated to consult a group which is neither directly financially involved nor a governing body. This is not to say that fans should not make their views known to the regulator, and there will be many instances, such as in the state of the game consultation, where we expect the regulator to be able to consider a number of perspectives. This includes the views of fans on the financial situation in English football. Furthermore, the proposed drafting requiring consultation with representatives of regulated clubs is duplicative, given that the Bill as drafted already requires the consultation of the leagues.

Finally, Amendment 319 seeks to remove the provision that explicitly outlines that leagues can come to an alternative agreement at any time in the backstop process. The ability of leagues to come to an agreement independently has been protected in the legislation itself intentionally, to highlight that an industry-led solution is both preferred and encouraged. We believe this explicit protection will encourage the leagues to reconsider at every step of the process whether regulatory intervention is necessary, ideally bringing them closer to an independent agreement that works for all of football.

I hope that my responses have reassured my noble friends and other noble Lords that the Government’s approach is appropriate and provides the necessary protections, and that my noble friends will not press their amendments.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Markham, rumbled me early on in his comments when he worked out that these were probing amendments; that is what they were intended to be. The group is disparate—I did not author it; it was what we were handed. It has been useful because it has enabled me to hear from the Minister how she sees the regulatory arrangements working as far as distribution is concerned, and the extent of the regulator’s flexibility.

I did not make this observation in my opening remarks but I think—the Minister covered this point—that the “state of the game” report will be critical when the regulator gets to grips with the distribution. The distribution of the revenues will be most important, because that is designed to make the game sustainable, to make sure that clubs do not go into administration, that we do not have clubs paying more than they actually earn in revenues, and so that clubs do not get to the point where they cannot properly trade. That is the most important thing for me.

Although I appreciate that my amendments would appear to some to be a bit of regulatory overkill, I think the point was made that we need to make sure that the regulator can do its job properly. The Premier League should not be at all threatened by the powers that the regulator has. Given the amount of money there is in the game and the continuing success of the Premier League—and, for that matter, the Championship —the regulator should be able to get our national game to the point where it is much more financially in balance and there are not the big gaps and distortions in revenue distribution throughout the pyramid.

I thank the Minister for what she said. Obviously, I shall study it very carefully. I think it unlikely that I shall return to these issues on Report, but obviously I will look at it very carefully before we come to that point. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)]

I support Amendment 263 and declare an interest as a supporter of Norwich City, who, over a number of seasons, endured the pain of relegation and then the joy of promotion on a regular basis. So, unlike my noble friend Lord Maude, I am well aware of the benefits of parachute payments, although unfortunately not for a few seasons now.

As we have heard, parachute payments are a critical foundation for the competitiveness of the Premier League. They help clubs manage the financial impact relegation from the Premier League can cause and give a degree of stability at a time of significant challenge to allow them to adjust to their new financial and footballing reality. That is true of all clubs. Well-run clubs like Norwich City could not have survived, even with the benevolent owners they had, without the benefit of a parachute payment. A parachute payment does not, however, in any way ensure that clubs continually go up to the Premier League, as, unfortunately, the last few seasons for Norwich City have shown.

I am sure a number of noble Lords will have seen the letter from Cliff Crown, chairman of Brentford FC, who said:

“For Brentford FC the parachute payment model provided an essential safety net, enabling us to invest in the team and infrastructure when we secured promotion. This support was pivotal in ensuring we could compete effectively and establish ourselves in the Premier League.”.


Like other noble Lords, I am concerned that the Bill as it stands may inadvertently incentivise bottom-half Premier League clubs and Championship clubs seeking promotion to significantly curb their investment over time, given the greater risk relegation would undoubtedly present. As my noble friend Lady Brady said, relegation would become a real financial cliff edge that would see clubs lose enormous amounts of revenue overnight, while having to continue to cover the costs predicated on their involvement in the Premier League. If that were to happen, the competitiveness of the Premier League would be severely weakened, and I believe the Championship would be significantly weakened too, undermining the very attributes that attract the revenues that sustain the game.

I urge the Minister to look again at this issue and to carefully consider the concerns raised in our discussions today. In particular, if she has not already done so, I urge her to talk to the clubs whose first-hand experience of the stabilising effects of parachute payments surely must be central to any discussion of this issue. I really hope that their experience will not be dismissed out of hand.

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Markham, for this amendment and all noble Lords who have taken part with a degree of passion that shows their commitment to the game and to the legislative scrutiny process.

First, I acknowledge that all noble Lords—I include myself in this—agree that parachute payments are a significant part of football’s financial landscape. I reassure noble Lords that the Government recognise that they play an important role in supporting the survival of relegated clubs. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Brady, that they can provide a lifeline. However, the regulator needs to be able to consider all relevant revenue sources as part of the backstop process to get an accurate picture of the proposal’s impact on financial sustainability. That is why parachute payments have not been excluded in this Bill’s definition of relevant revenue.

We believe that allowing the regulator to make a more informed decision, rather than restricting what it can consider, will only help to achieve the best possible outcome for the future of the game. Notably, parachute payments will be reviewed as part of the process only if the regulator deems them a relevant consideration. The current drafting does not require that parachute payments be considered; it allows them to be so only if they are deemed relevant by the regulator. So, if it agrees with the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Markham, based on the state of the game report, it will act accordingly. What that means in practice—

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)]

The Minister talks about the state of the game report, which I completely agree is going to be extremely important, but the fact of the matter is that the backstop could be triggered before the state of the game report is published. From what I remember, it is quite a long time before it needs to be published. It could be that both leagues—the EFL and the Premier League, or whoever—will trigger the backstop before that, so parachute payments will be included. Unfortunately, the state of the game report may have no impact whatever on an initial decision by the regulator. The timescales simply do not work. I am not expecting a particular answer today, as the Minister can well say that she is not in charge of the regulator, but it is important to note that the timing of these things does not necessarily tie up, so unfortunately, reassurances like that are not really reassurances.

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

Clearly, it does not need to wait for the state of the game report to decide whether they are relevant. The approach we have adopted in the Bill means in practice that if the regulator has clear evidence, whether from a different source or from the state of the game report, that parachute payments are causing sustainability issues to the wider pyramid, it will now be able to address them. In our view, this was a potentially serious gap in the legislation that we feel has now been rectified. I stress “potential”.

[Baroness Brady (Con)]

What the Minister said would be fine if the regulator was making a balanced determination, but because the Government have created a binary process whereby one proposal can be accepted, it could choose to abolish them. The Government have created that risk, and it is an intolerable risk.

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

We went through in quite a lot of detail how the backstop mechanism would be triggered. I know we have more to come, as the noble Lord, Lord Maude, said, but in my view, it is not unreasonable for the regulator to be able to consider them. However, the regulator does not need to consider them.

On the point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Brady —clubs and planning, and how they can deal with their financial future if parachute payments could change as part of the backstop process—while the Government understand the desire to ensure that regulated clubs have as much time to adjust to change as possible, we acknowledge that significant time has already passed without a financial distribution agreement. Ensuring a timely and satisfactory agreement is in the interests of football and the wider public. The backstop process is a built-in transition period specifying that parachute payments cannot be reduced within one year of the distribution order coming into effect.

We understand concerns around the future of clubs that may already have factored parachute payments into their forward-looking financial planning before a potential order that could lower payments had been issued. We would expect the leagues to maintain effective communication with clubs throughout the backstop process, which, alongside the built-in transitory provision, will mean that clubs should have ample time to adjust if parachute payments are deemed in scope. There will not be any sudden reduction in payments without warning. I feel that that should provide some reassurance to noble Lords and to the clubs.

On the definition of relevant revenue, football is a fast-paced industry, so it would be erroneous to assume that the definition of relevant revenue might not need to change. If broadcast revenue ceases to be the primary source of revenue stream in the game, the definition would need to be amended to ensure the process remained a viable regulatory intervention. Furthermore, there are already significant safeguards in place to ensure that this power is not used incorrectly. For example, consultation with the regulator, the Football Association and specified competition organisations is required before the power can be utilised.

With noble Lords’ indulgence, I want to say a bit about the consultation process. On a number of occasions it has been stated in your Lordships’ House that there has been insufficient consultation. Particularly in response to a point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Brady, I want to put on the record that this Football Governance Bill is the culmination of years of work, including a huge amount of consultation. During that time, there has been extensive regular engagement with key stakeholders, including clubs that will be subject to the regulation. All clubs have been provided with a number of formal opportunities to share their views, particularly as part of the fan-led review and the formal consultation process on the football governance White Paper, where all 116 clubs in the top five leagues at the time were invited to give their views on the proposals. Over that period, DCMS Ministers and officials have had many hundreds of meetings with clubs, leagues, fan groups and other stakeholders from across football, and we continue to engage with the industry now, so this number is constantly growing.

Clubs have had five years to write to or meet DCMS to make their position known. No club that has requested a meeting has not had one. Indeed, some Premier League clubs were recently invited to meet officials and turned down the invitation, which I stress is their right. We have met and continue to meet a range of clubs, at all levels of the football pyramid, that will be subject to regulation.

The leagues have a role to play here. We would expect them to support their clubs in their understanding of the development of the regime and in their engagement with the Government, as well as to keep their clubs updated on any engagement that the leagues have had with the Government. Indeed, this is what has been explicitly asked of us at times by some of the leagues. Richard Masters, the CEO of the Premier League, Rick Parry, chair of the EFL, and Kevin Miles, CEO of the Football Supporters’ Association, have all praised the Government’s constructive approach to engagement with the clubs and the leagues.

This is not the end of the process or of the consultation. There are still lots of opportunities for clubs to have their say as the legislation passes through Parliament and work continues to establish the regulator. Even once the regulator is established, its approach will be advocacy first, aiming to work constructively with clubs on an ongoing basis to resolve issues wherever it can.

I have asked for an answer to the noble Baroness’s question about the response to the letter, and I will have to revert to her after the debate. Given the lateness of the evening, I have not been able to get a response on that.

[Baroness Brady (Con)]

Is that the letter I sent on 2 December about UEFA or the letter that the seven clubs sent to the Secretary of State to which she is going to reply? Maybe the Minister can tell me that afterwards.

It is a statement of fact that the Secretary of State has met only seven clubs for half an hour. I am not talking about other officials. I have to say that there was zero consultation on including parachute payments in the Bill. There may have been other meetings, but between the two Bills that was a significant change that has caused lots of difficult conversations within the leagues.

The Minister said that there was no deal in place. There is a deal; it has been in place between the Premier League and the EFL since 2018, and it has a three-year notice period—just so she knows.

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

I will have to get back to the noble Baroness on the letter she said was sent by the Premier League following that meeting. Officials have not been able to get in touch with the correspondence team given the lateness of the evening, but we will endeavour to chase that up tomorrow.

I am aware that there is a deal in place. One of the issues raised during the debate this evening has been the inability to reach a new deal. I hope that, at some point soon, the various parties will come to an agreement without us having to trigger the backstop. My main point was that simply referring to one meeting maybe gave the wrong impression of the extent of the consultation. I have spoken to officials who themselves have had more than 100 meetings with the Premier League. To me, that sounds like ongoing dialogue rather than consultation. However, we may need to pick that up outside this Committee.

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

In the spirit of trying to be helpful, and given that Clause 56 is a Henry VIII clause, would the Minister look favourably, potentially on Report, at bringing forward a government amendment which tightens up the wording of Clause 56(2)? Very strong feelings have been enunciated today by my noble friends around parachute payments. It is incumbent on the Minister to acknowledge that and perhaps come back on Report with government amendments that reflect that.

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

The noble Lord may not be surprised to know that I am not going to commit to doing that. We believe that the model in the Bill is the correct one. I am happy to meet the noble Lord and others to discuss this before Report, However, on the basis of the arguments I have made this evening, I urge the noble Lord, Lord Markham, to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Markham (Con)]

I thank all noble Lords for their contributions. We can all agree that everyone spoke with passion on this point. We are passionate because we know it really matters.

I am grateful to the Minister for her acknowledgement of the importance of parachute payments. They really are critical. I echo the point made by my noble friend Lady Brady that, since parachute payments were brought into this, my understanding is that there has been only a 30-minute meeting with the clubs, where this was barely brought up. I urge the Minister to consult more with the clubs.

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

I asked officials to draw up the words that I said on consultation because, night after night, group after group, it has been said to me that there has been insufficient consultation on the Bill. I went back and asked whether I could stand up and say that there has been sufficient consultation on the Bill. What consultation happened? When has it happened? How has it happened? Who has it been with? I am confident there has been a huge amount of consultation on the Bill and I will continue to state that when I am asked. I will follow up things that people feel have not been followed up, but any club that wanted to have a meeting has had one, and some have said they did not want one. I will sit down and allow the noble Lord to finish, but I am not going to accept that there has not been sufficient consultation.

[Baroness Brady (Con)]

I am sorry to intervene, but I want to say again that on the specific issue of parachute payments there was no consultation with either the Premier League officials or the Premier League clubs that attended that meeting before this went into the Bill. I am not saying that there was not consultation on other areas, but this is a significant change to the Bill that had zero consultation with the Premier League or Premier League officials.

[Lord Markham (Con)]

It may be that it should be a matter of fact and we can find out one way or the other. The question is: how much consultation has happened specifically on the parachute payments? Obviously, they have been a recent introduction. My understanding from my noble friend is that there was just that 30-minute meeting, at which this was barely raised. I would be grateful if the Minister could ask her officials directly.

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

I will intervene again, and I thank the noble Lord for giving way. Labour tabled an amendment on this in opposition, so I am surprised that there seems to be so much surprise that the Government have now put this in the legislation. I accept that perhaps it was not noted at the time.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)]

The Minister will also know that Labour tabled a lot of amendments, many of which we are also now pushing, but are told they are not going to be considered. So, yes, but equally perhaps the Minister might like to look through all the amendments tabled by her colleagues in the Labour Party in the other House and see whether she is now prepared to accept them all.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Brady (Con)]

My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendments 271, 307 and 316 in this group. My noble friend Lord Maude is right: the Premier League’s distribution outside our ecosystem is the highest amount of money of any other sporting competition in the world, and no regulator has forced the Premier League to do that.

My amendments seek to embed principles into the backstop mechanism. My aim in doing so is to ensure that it operates in a way that is proportionate, legally defensible and fit for purpose. At the heart of the amendments lies a simple but critical idea: any intervention by the IFR on this issue must be guided by clear, fair and transparent principles.

The backstop mechanism in its current form lacks sufficient criteria to direct the IFR in exercising its powers. It dictates that the IFR must choose the proposal that is “more consistent” with its principles. But what are those principles? The first is to “advance the IFR’s objectives”, and we have already discussed at great length how nebulous those objectives are. The second is not to place any “undue burden” on the parties’ commercial interests. The third is to ensure that relegated clubs have a one-year transition for any changes to parachute payments. That is it. There is no other guidance for the regulator in making this enormous and binary choice. This is quite incredible, and it creates huge risks, not only for the clubs and the leagues but, more importantly, for the very integrity of the regulatory process itself.

Let me begin with a fundamental principle of protecting property and contractual rights. It is vital to understand that the revenues subject to redistribution under the backstop are not collective funds but revenues generated solely by the Premier League and the Premier League clubs. So the backstop is not a neutral act; it is interference in the property rights of Premier League clubs only.

Under Article 1 of Protocol 1 in the Human Rights Act—A1P1—any interference with those rights must therefore be justified on clear and compelling public policy grounds, and adhere to principles of proportionality and necessity. There are concerns that this crude mechanism, with so few transparent criteria, is legally challengeable under A1P1, even more so now as a result of parachute payments being included, and that is not a good thing; it is in everybody’s interests for this backstop to be legally defensible. But without robust principles to guide the IFR’s decision-making, any determination risks being challenged, leaving the IFR open to judicial review and the entire system mired in uncertainty and delay.

A1P1 case law also emphasises the principle that less intrusive measures must be considered before more significant interventions are imposed, so this is also enshrined in my proposed amendment. The backstop mechanism, as drafted, establishes a binary process that compels the IFR to choose between two competing proposals, but it provides no framework for the IFR to tend towards the least intrusive option, particularly in relation to respecting the Premier League’s property rights as the sole funder of financial redistribution. That is a very dangerous oversight.

Without explicit guidance to the IFR that it should tend towards the least intrusive measure, particularly in its treatment of Premier League revenues, there is a real risk that the backstop could lead to legal overreach. Including this principle in the Bill would provide the IFR with a clear steer, reflect the unique role of the Premier League as the funder of any distribution order and ensure that the mechanism operated in a way that respected property rights.

The principle of good faith is another cornerstone of these amendments. The binary nature of the backstop mechanism incentivises brinkmanship rather than genuine negotiation. These amendments seek to create a framework that rewards constructive engagement and discourages posturing. Without this principle, the backstop risks becoming a tool for division rather than collaboration.

Another critical safeguard in the amendments is the requirement that any backstop decision must not force clubs into breaching their own league’s or UEFA’s existing financial rules and covenants, including profit and sustainability rules or the IFR’s own licence. A sudden and drastic redistribution could reduce Premier League clubs’ revenues, which in turn could destabilise their own business plans, which in turn leads them to breach the profitability and sustainability rules in their own leagues. That would lead to fines, sanctions or even points deductions for Premier League clubs. It would be a remarkable irony if a mechanism intended to promote sustainability instead penalised clubs for failing to meet their own financial obligations.

Finally, let me address the amendment tabled by my noble friend Lord Maude, which would ensure that the backstop could not be used as a first resort. The IFR must first regulate clubs in the EFL to ensure that they are financially responsible and not conveniently reach for the Premier League’s revenues before it has even sought to impose those controls. If the IFR cannot deliver sustainability through its own regulatory tools, what confidence can we have in its ability to manage a redistributive mechanism fairly or effectively? My noble friend’s amendment rightly prioritises the use of all other tools before triggering the backstop.

These amendments would provide the IFR with the steers that it will desperately need to navigate one of the most consequential issues in football. Without these amendments, or something very similar, the backstop risks sinking into a legal and political quagmire. We should all be aligned in preventing that outcome, so I hope the Minister will listen carefully and sympathetically to these arguments.

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Brady, and the noble Lord, Lord Maude of Horsham, for these amendments, and the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay, for giving notice of his intention to oppose that Clauses 56 to 60 stand part of the Bill.

I will start with Amendments 271 and 316, from the noble Baroness, Lady Brady. I thank her for clearly stating some of her core concerns about the backstop process through these amendments and hope to reassure her that the existing drafting of the Bill already addresses her concerns without the need for this additional clause. First, I will cover her concern regarding the explanation of suitable alternative regulatory solutions when I address subsequent amendments. On her other concerns, current drafting of the Bill already requires the regulator to trigger the process only if its ability to advance its objectives would be threatened if it did not. Final proposals are already required to advance the regulator’s objective of ensuring financial sustainability and resilience. They also have to ensure that they do not place an undue burden on the commercial interests of either league. We have been mindful of property rights when designing the backstop, which is why the process can be triggered only in specific circumstances and why, even when the high threshold for triggering the process is met, commercial interests must still be considered. We consider this to be a suitably high bar to ensure that the regulator takes adequate consideration of regulated clubs’ property rights and commercial interests.

I understand that the noble Baroness is especially concerned about the issuing of a distribution order that may force clubs into non-compliance with the league’s own internal rules. We would expect the regulator’s decisions to be internally consistent in terms of advancing its objectives, so we cannot see a scenario where the regulator would issue a distribution order that required a club to become non-compliant with its licence conditions. However, there may need to be some adaptation by regulated clubs and competition organisers to renew the regulatory landscape.

If a distribution order issued to ensure the financial sustainability of football put a club at risk of breaching a league’s rules, we would expect competition organisers to work with the club in question and the regulator to understand the decision and its impact. Just as we may expect adaptation by clubs transitioning from unregulated to regulated, we may also expect to see the adaptation of competition organisers.

The amendment implies a scenario where a distribution order results in clubs becoming non-compliant with existing financial regulations. The regulator is already required, as part of its decision on whether to trigger the process, to consider whether the lack of arrangement has arisen as a result of bad faith. Therefore, we are confident that the existing drafting of the backstop proposal process is sufficient to ensure that the regulator already considers the factors outlined in this amendment.

I turn to Amendment 307. While I understand the desire to ensure the proposals chosen at the final proposal stage of the backstop process meet the objectives of the regulator, I believe that the existing drafting already suitably addresses this concern. Final proposals are already required to advance the financial sustainability and resilience of the football pyramid, under existing Clause 62(2)(a). I do not think that the proposed change in wording would lead to significant altered proposals or subsequent distribution orders; therefore, I do not consider that the change is necessary.

I turn to Amendment 288A, from the noble Lord, Lord Maude of Horsham. I understand the desire to ensure that the backstop process is triggered only as a last resort, as this is how the process has been designed and is intended to be used. However, one of the existing conditions that must be met for the regulator to trigger the process in response to an application is that its ability to deliver at least one of its objectives would be jeopardised if the backstop was not triggered. We would expect that, as part of the assessment under this condition, the regulator would review whether existing financial regulations and other regulatory tools could be utilised to better effect instead.

While in service of the same goal, the wording of this amendment is unnecessarily restrictive, requiring the regulator to exhaust all possible other regulatory approaches, and it adds a regulatory burden by requiring the consideration of an expansive array of approaches without prioritisation. This forces the regulator to spend additional time and resources considering options unlikely to resolve the conflict in question. We believe that the current wording already allows the regulator to make its own considered assessment of relevant options before triggering the process.

I now turn to the clause stand part debates and will respond to the noble Lord, Lord Markham. Part 6, of which Clause 56 is the first clause, relates to financial distributions and the backstop mechanism in its totality. I understand the desire on both sides to apply appropriate scrutiny to a part of the Bill that could significantly impact the future financial landscape of football. I hope that, throughout the debate on the backstop process on this and future Committee days, I will be able to demonstrate that the approach taken in Part 6 is the most proportionate and effective approach possible.

These backstop powers have been introduced to help ensure that an agreement can be reached between the leagues in regard to the distribution of revenues from the selling of TV broadcast rights. An agreement of this nature is vital to ensure the future financial sustainability of the football pyramid. The process has been designed to incentivise reasonableness, encourage industry solutions and tackle any bargaining imbalance between leagues. The design of the process is a final offer mechanism, a process that has been shown to incentivise negotiation. It achieves this by removing the ability of the negotiating parties to rely on the third party, in this case the regulator, to design a solution for them. We do not want football to become reliant on the regulator to decide its agreements.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Moynihan (Con)]

I have listened very carefully to the debate and to what the Minister has said. I understand that UEFA asked the Government to carefully reconsider the backstop mechanism, since when it has become much wider in scope and more likely to lead to the most extreme outcomes. I wonder whether she has discussed it with UEFA. Can the Minister update the Committee on the outcome of those discussions?

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

I have had no direct meetings with UEFA, but the Minister for Sport in the other place has. I cannot confirm what was said in the meeting, but I will endeavour to establish whether this was part of the discussion. What did or did not happen at that meeting has not been part of my conversations with people, but I will endeavour to find out. I suspect I will not get an answer to the noble Lord tonight.

[Lord Moynihan (Con)]

Will the Minister kindly write to the Committee? This is very important indeed. The backstop has been introduced into the Bill and UEFA has expressed very serious concerns about it. Unless this can be resolved, it could threaten the existence of English clubs playing in UEFA competitions. I hope that this has been high on the agenda of discussions between UEFA and the Government. Having listened carefully to what the Minister has said, all I ask is that she write to the Committee, or early in January inform the Committee, on how UEFA has responded to this significant expansion of the effect of the backstop, which it was originally very concerned about.

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

To be clear, I do not speak for UEFA. It is an international organisation that is able to speak for itself. I am not aware that UEFA raised issues about the backstop specifically in the meeting with the Minister for Sport, but I will endeavour to find out. I understand from the expression of the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, that he may have more information about UEFA’s concerns than I do. However, without expecting this to be an ongoing dialogue, I will endeavour to establish the information that he requested.

[Lord Moynihan (Con)]

I asked whether it was raised in the letter from UEFA, which sadly the Committee cannot because it is private correspondence, but it is right at the heart of this legislation. If it was raised in the letter, or in subsequent correspondence, would my friend the Minister kindly confirm that to the Committee? It would help us in our deliberations moving forward.

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

UEFA raised no concerns about the backstop in its most recent meetings with DCMS and the Minister for Sport, including those held since the Bill has been introduced. I hope that reassures the noble Lord on this point. As I say, I do not speak, will not speak and cannot speak for UEFA; I speak for the Government.

Ultimately, the clause is about creating transparency, which sets the tone for the rest of the backstop process. Clause 59 introduces high statutory thresholds that must be met in order for the backstop to be triggered. In particular, it sets out that the regulator must have reasonable grounds to suspect that its ability to advance at least one of its objectives would be jeopardised if the backstop was not triggered. As stated, an implicit part of this consideration would include an assessment of whether other regulatory tools could be utilised to better effect instead.

The regulator can consider what the distributed revenues will be used for and, if the basis for the backstop application is that there is no distribution agreement in place, whether this has arisen as a result of bad faith. This helps to incentivise the leagues to try to reach an agreement in good faith before turning to the regulator, and ensures that the backstop is used only where absolutely necessary. The regulator must make its decision within 28 days, although it can extend this by a further 28 days if absolutely necessary. Once the regulator has made its decision, it must notify the relevant leagues of its decision to ensure transparency throughout the process.

As we have made clear, the Government’s strong preference is for a football-led solution to issues around financial distributions. As such, the mediation stage outlined in Clause 60 grants the relevant leagues an opportunity to reach an agreement before the regulator delivers a solution as part of the final proposal stage. The mediation stage has been designed to facilitate meaningful negotiation and compromise between the parties. To this end, it encourages the leagues to appoint a mediator they both agree on, but ensures that the regulator will appoint somebody with the appropriate skills and experience if they cannot. The leagues can end the mediation process for multiple reasons, most notably if an alternative agreement is reached. However, the mediator can also end the process if it is not producing meaningful good-faith negotiations or if it reaches the 28-day deadline.

I thank noble Lords for their amendments and the well-natured debate on this important part of the Bill. I hope my reasons have reassured noble Lords and that they will not press their amendments. I ask that these clauses stand part of the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendments 280 and 281, which my noble friend Lady Brady has set out admirably. She established the case for her amendments very well and raised a number of points that I hope the Minister will answer.

These amendments work in tandem to allow competition organisers to contract out of the backstop. Under this amendment, leagues would be able to agree a period for which a distribution agreement would last. Of course, they may not reach such a deal. In that case, the applicable period would be five years—the period that is currently the default in the Bill. Allowing leagues to have a greater flexibility to negotiate the length of time for which an agreement has to be in place before it can be renegotiated would establish better principles in the backstop. Surely, we should not preclude leagues from acting cordially, if they are able to, and agreeing a period for distributions. I fear that the Bill, as the Government have presented it, might discourage constructive working relationships where they may arise.

I am conscious that this is the last opportunity I will have to intervene on this final group before the Christmas Recess and I want to thank noble Lords across the Committee for the hard work they have put in. I know that noble friends on my side of the House are missing Christmas parties and wedding anniversaries this evening, and noble Lords across the House have been doing similar. Everyone is here because they care very deeply about the future of football—even if, like football fans, they disagree volubly on some of the details.

In particular I thank the Minister, who has responded to pretty much every group. Today was the first day that she did not, and even then she had only a brief time off the pitch. She has taken many interventions, she has been generous with her time outside the Chamber as well and she has written us a number of letters. I know we have asked her a few more questions and she will be writing to us further, but, in the meantime, I wish her and all noble Lords across the Committee a very merry Christmas and express my thanks to everyone for their work in scrutinising the Bill.

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Brady, for her amendments and for her introduction to what was, thankfully, at this time of the night, with apologies, a very short debate—so far.

These amendments are intended to allow leagues to reach an agreement to extend the time that must pass before the backstop can be triggered. While I entirely understand the desire for negotiations to be a league-led process, the timeframe outlined in the Bill has been chosen to ensure that the regulator can intervene in cases where an agreement has not been reached for a significant period. We believe that it is the correct amount of time to get a good view of how potential agreements have affected sustainability, while ensuring that a new agreement is reached in a timely manner. Crucially, many noble Lords have talked about certainty in the regime. We consider that five years provides enough certainty to all parties.

Finally, we have concerns that allowing industry to come to a different timeframe could lead to an element of coercion towards much longer agreements, nulling the presence of the power. The Government’s view is that the five-year timeframe is critical to the effective functioning of the backstop as a regulatory intervention.

For the reasons I have set out, I am unable to accept the amendments and hope that the noble Baroness will withdraw Amendment 280. But, first, I also wish all noble Lords a very happy Recess. I genuinely look forward to continuing the debate in the new year and thank the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson, for his kind words.

[Baroness Brady (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her response and for engaging with the points raised in this debate. However, it will not surprise her that I remain completely unconvinced.

This decision does not deliver certainty: quite the opposite. It enshrines short-term thinking and locks football in a perpetual cycle of instability, with both sides forever negotiating under the shadow of the backstop. As I said, it is a recipe not for certainty but for fractiousness and mistrust.

The Minister also referenced the nature of football’s landscape as the reason to limit agreements, but I am not sure that can be right. I urge her to think again. This new backstop is the Government’s gamble that the Premier League has achieved escape velocity and can absorb anything that even its own Government can throw at it. However, the Premier League is not a cow to be milked. It is a national treasure to be protected. English football deserves much better. I am sure that we will be discussing this issue again on Report, but, for now, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.