Personal Independence Payment

Baroness Thomas of Winchester Excerpts

Monday 6th June 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Altmann]

My Lords, I have issued a correction of the response to the Official Report. It is indeed possible for those who are unable reliably to walk more than 20 metres to get the enhanced rate, but there is no generally accepted measurement of distance that will be recognised as appropriate. The aim of the enhanced rate is, and always was under DLA, to help people who are either unable or virtually unable to walk. Under PIP, the test is widened so that it is not just those who are unable or virtually unable to walk, but those who have barriers to mobility and who find it difficult to get around. These issues need to be addressed on a case-by-case basis. They are expertly assessed. Indeed, we engaged directly with the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, subsequent to that debate as we want to get this right.

[Baroness Thomas of Winchester (LD)]

My Lords, I am grateful for that reply, but on the consultation that the Minister mentioned, the Government took absolutely no notice of more than 1,000 responses that were quite clear. My question is about the tribunal hearings. The Government’s own research shows that for claimants whose appeal is allowed, often their evidence is oral evidence, not just written evidence from doctors. In other words, the assessors are not asking the right questions, they are not listening to the answers, or the policy is too confusing. What is going on if that is the case?

[Baroness Altmann]

The noble Baroness obviously makes a very well-informed point. I can assure the House that the Minister for Disabled People is actively working on this; we want to get it right. We are trying to improve the original assessment. Obviously it is in everyone’s interest to get the correct decision as early as possible, so we are now giving assessors an extra 10 working days to help applicants gather their information. Many appeals succeed because they produce new evidence that was not available at the time of the original assessment.

Personal Independence Payment: Mobility Criterion

Baroness Thomas of Winchester Excerpts

Wednesday 4th May 2016 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Thomas of Winchester]

That this House calls on Her Majesty’s Government to hold urgent talks with Disability Rights UK and the Disability Benefits Consortium to identify a mobility criterion in the Personal Independence Payment “moving around” assessment which is fairer than the current 20 metre distance, in the light of the impact on reassessed disabled claimants and the resulting large number of successful appeals.

[Baroness Thomas of Winchester (LD)]

My Lords, in moving this Motion I must first declare that I have a Motability car as a result of having higher-rate mobility and disability living allowance. As I am over 65, I will not be reassessed for personal independence payments. That is probably the reason why I am so keen to try to persuade the Government to hold urgent talks about the “moving around” part of the PIP assessment, because I am particularly concerned about the reassessment process for all those working-age disabled claimants who at present receive higher-rate mobility DLA and are thus entitled to a Motability car but who are now facing reassessment for PIP. Here I should make it clear that I am not talking about the care component to PIP, which was the subject of the recent climb-down by the Government over the Budget. Tabling a Motion is an unusual course to take, but I assure the House that there is nothing fatal about it. However, if it were to be agreed, it would send a powerful message that this House is very concerned about this particular government policy and is taking a constructive approach to seeing what can be done to help the situation.

Why am I so concerned about the “Moving around” section? Because the relevant walking distance test for PIP has been made much harder than the DLA test, meaning that by the Government’s own estimate the number of people on enhanced or higher-rate mobility will go down from around 1 million people to 600,000 by 2018. Some 400 to 500 Motability cars a week are now being handed back by disabled claimants whose condition may not have improved but who are losing not just their car but, in many cases, their independence. Under DLA, the walking distance was 50 metres, which was in the Department for Transport guidance on inclusive mobility. The new distance of 20 metres is just under two London bus lengths, and is unrecognised in any other setting. There is no evidence that it is a sensible distance for the test, and it is not used anywhere else by the Government.

So someone with a walking frame, say, who can just about manage 20 to 30 metres, will not usually qualify for PIP. I see the Minister even now sharpening her pencil to make a note reminding her to tell me that this is a travesty of the truth. No, I have not forgotten the reliability criteria, which were made statutory in the last Parliament—thanks, in fact, to the intervention of the Liberal Democrats. The full reliability criteria in the PIP guidance are that 20 metres must be able to be walked,

“safely … to an acceptable standard …repeatedly … and … in a reasonable time period”.

Claimants, we are assured, must be asked about these criteria during an assessment. But are we quite sure that they are asked on every occasion? Are claimants taken outside the assessment centre, and does the assessor watch while they do the walking test?

How the questions are asked is likely to have a significant impact. If someone said to me, “Could you walk this distance, not too slowly, even if the pavement was very uneven”—as they all are in London—“and crowded, and there was a gusty wind or perhaps rain? What about crossing the road, which might not have a dropped kerb except at the very end, which would be further away than 20 metres? Could you walk this distance more than once a day if you had to—say, to a local shop or pharmacy and back, or to a bus stop, which would almost certainly be more than 20 metres away? And in the dark?”. My answer would be no. However, if the criteria were mentioned quickly, with the assessor looking down and ready to tick a box on the relevant form, then I might not quite take them in. I also wonder whether every claimant actually knows what distance 20 metres is unless it is demonstrated. I have heard about walking tests being done by claimants inside the assessment centre, but that is not the right test.

In an ideal world, at the assessment all claimants would have a report from a healthcare professional setting out their mobility problems, but I gather that that is not mandatory because in many cases such reports, particularly if they come from GPs, cost the claimant money. The amount varies enormously, but even in 2013 the BMA suggested that £90 was not an unreasonable amount. It is likely that, in time, a person’s medical records may be able to be accessed online, but that is not the case at present. It is only during the tribunal appeal process—not even the mandatory reconsideration—that the DWP will pay for a medical report. This whole area could be explored in the talks that I am calling for, because there are other healthcare professionals who do not charge for their reports. We are told that claimants often produce more evidence at the appeal stage, so why not try to improve this part of the process before that stage?

Why did the Government shorten the walking distance so arbitrarily and drastically? Almost certainly, it was to wipe the slate clean before the tribunal judgments in order to save the money that the Treasury was demanding. After all, who would notice except disabled people themselves? The Government’s excuse would be that the test had changed so the money would now go only to “those most in need”. That is a very worthy-sounding phrase, but it really does not mean very much unless it is qualified. Perhaps disabled people in rural areas, where public transport is scarce, are most in need of their own transport. Perhaps disabled parents with young children are most in need of their own wheels, or those who need a large car because they have most to carry in them, such as a supply of oxygen, walking aids or even toilet equipment. Just to recap, under PIP, if a person can walk more than 20 metres, aided or unaided, they usually will not qualify for the enhanced rate mobility component and thus a Motability vehicle.

How did Parliament allow this change in the assessment rule without challenging it? The answer is that the Government changed the distance at the very last minute without consulting on it. They then realised that no consultation on a crucial rule meant a judicial review, so they consulted in the summer of 2013. They received more than 1,000 responses, almost all saying that the 20-metre walking test was manifestly unfair, not to say meaningless, and that a longer distance should be used. The Government took absolutely no notice, using the excuse that, because there was no unanimity on what the right distance should be, they were going to stick with 20 metres. In other words, the consultation was a complete sham and the Government’s response unbelievably weak.

PIP was fraught with problems for new claimants. It was initially delayed for months, and then reassessments were delayed for months and months but they finally got going last year and are resulting, as was predicted, in hundreds of cars being handed back. Motability has done what it can to mitigate the situation, but it is the Government’s responsibility to make the assessment as fair as possible. If it is fair now, why are there so many successful appeals? Sixty per cent is the figure I have. Appeals, it must be pointed out, can be held several months after a car has been handed back and are quite expensive, costing over £200 each. It surely cannot be right for the Government to rely on appeals to bring some fairness into the situation.

I will now look briefly at just three of the other arguments that the Minister will use. First, I will be told that there is now a better balance between those with mental health problems and those with mobility problems. That is good, but there should not be a trade-off between these two groups. Is that what happens in the NHS? Parity of esteem should mean just that. I will also be told that there are more Motability cars on the road than ever before because a slightly higher percentage of PIP assessments are successful compared with those for DLA. However, the true picture will not emerge until all the reassessments are done, when it is estimated that the number of Motability cars by 2018 will be down to 602,000. Thirdly, I will be reassured that the Access to Work programme can take care of disabled people who lose their Motability car, which they need to get to work. However, it will not help those who need a car to get to a further education college for training or to university, or for volunteering or hospital appointments, or even to visit family and friends at the weekend.

As for the assessors, when one young claimant with cerebral palsy asked why she had to be tested again, she was told by her assessor that there might have been medical advances. The claimant said, “There’s no cure for cerebral palsy. I’m never going to get any better. I’ve been on a lifetime award since I was a teenager, and now someone who has never met me can take that away”. This was not just an isolated example of an uninformed assessor. Someone with muscular dystrophy, a progressive condition, was told by an assessor to get better soon. Many with this and other progressive conditions such as MS and Parkinson’s, with lifetime awards of DLA, are falling foul of this particular part of the PIP assessment. Here, again, the quality and training of assessors is another important issue for talks. It was the last thing that the late and much-lamented Lord Walton of Detchant asked about on 7 March as a supplementary to my Oral Question on that day.

To sum up, to be told that the bill for PIP is too high and must be cut by more than halving the walking distance test is a real slap in the face for thousands of disabled people, particularly those of working age with lifetime awards under DLA. Of course the bill is going up—because the disabled population is going up. The Government must have factored that into their calculations years ago. The last thing that anyone wants is for more and more disabled people to become socially isolated and totally reliant on other services for everything they need. A great deal of money could actually be saved by other government departments, such as health, social services, employment and transport, by making the PIP walking distance fairer. I beg to move.

[Lord Low of Dalston (CB)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, has made an excellent case and I support it. I should declare as an interest that I have an award of disability living allowance, but it is not an interest that I have to defend because it is a lifetime award; and, since I, too, am over 65, I am not subject to reassessment. My only interest in this debate is that I wish everybody else to be able to have the same.

I want to make five points, which I think will add to what the noble Baroness said in her excellent speech. First, as I understand it, 548,000 disabled people will lose out as a result of the revision in the criteria for DLA and PIP. They are set to lose £35.65 a week as a result of this change, which is a considerable amount.

Secondly, Motability has reported that to date 45% of scheme users—over 13,000—who have been reassessed from DLA have lost their Motability car. That can have a dramatic impact on people’s employment. I heard somebody on the radio say that they would not be able to continue to work, but this does not just affect isolated individuals. Of Motability customers surveyed in 2010 who were not currently retired, permanently unable to work or in full-time education, 39% said that their Motability car had enabled them to gain employment, get better employment or maintain their current employment. A Multiple Sclerosis Society survey found that 20% of those surveyed agreed that it enabled them to stay in their job, whereas, without a Motability car, they would not have been able to do so. Making a change that means that people who need a Motability car to go to work lose their car flies in the face of the Government’s welfare-to-work agenda and their aim to halve the disability employment gap.

My third point is that the 50-metre threshold, to which the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, would like to see us return, is a well-established and research-based measure of significant mobility impairment. It has been used for the last 35 years, notably in relation to other disability benefits, including DLA itself, the blue badge or disabled persons’ parking scheme, and in official guidance on creating an accessible built environment. The 20-metre threshold to which retreat is being sought is completely arbitrary and has no basis in established usage.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Baroness Altmann) (Con)]

My Lords, I first assure the noble Baroness and the House that this Government have always been, and continue to be, fully committed to engaging with disabled people and organisations such as Disability Benefits Consortium and Disability Rights UK. I know that the Minister for Disabled People met the noble Baroness on 18 April to discuss the very issue raised in this debate. I also echo the sentiments of the Secretary of State during his Statement to Parliament last month. We are a one-nation Government committed to supporting everyone to achieve their full potential and to live independent lives.

Integral to that vision is ensuring that those with the greatest need are supported the most. We introduced the personal independence payment because disability living allowance was no longer fit for purpose. Under DLA, we assessed people purely on the basis of a disability, rather than considering individuals’ needs.

[Baroness Thomas of Winchester]

My Lords, I must disagree with the Minister on that point. I had an assessment, and nobody took any notice of the fact that I had a serious progressive condition. Therefore, my named disability did not count for anything, which is what the Minister just said.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Altmann]

Of course, I do not have those figures to hand and I do not know whether they are available. It is not a strict 20-metre rule—it is an indication—and I repeat that if somebody can walk more than 20 metres, they can still get the enhanced rate component; it does depend on the assessment.

I close by stressing once again that we—the department, the Secretary of State and Ministers—are happy to meet disability groups to discuss this issue, which is clearly very important and causing significant concern. I thank noble Lords for their contributions to the debate.

[Baroness Thomas of Winchester]

My Lords, I am extremely grateful to all noble Lords who have contributed to this short debate. It has been very illuminating. All the speakers have painted one picture; the Minister has painted a different picture, and we must have some meeting in the middle, somewhere, because it is not right to leave it as it is. I have heard from Citizens Advice, which is, after all, independent, as everyone knows. It says: “Our experience is that the quality of assessment continues to be poor and our advisers in local Citizens Advice across the country have identified the reduction of disability-related benefits generally, and the loss of Motability eligibility specifically, as an emerging and increasing issue in the past few months”. Something is clearly going wrong, but I am extremely pleased that the Minister has said that the department is willing to meet those groups that I referred to in my Motion, and I therefore commend my Motion to the House.

Motion agreed.

Welfare

Baroness Thomas of Winchester Excerpts

Monday 21st March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

The welfare reform programme is massive and we are pushing ahead with it. At its heart is universal credit, which is now moving at a pace. As I speak, more than 400,000 people have made an application for universal credit. We have a lot more to do, and we have a lot to do to implement the Bill that we have just passed. I have to disappoint the noble Lord by saying that there are no plans to reconsider the changes to ESA WRAG that we put through in that Bill.

[Baroness Thomas of Winchester (LD)]

My Lords, it is excellent news that the cuts announced in the Budget have been abandoned, but there is an existing cut that urgently needs to be reversed. It has had less attention but is badly affecting working-age claimants of PIP. I refer of course to the 20/50 metre issue in the “moving around” section of the PIP assessment, which is resulting in 400 to 500 Motability cars a week having to be handed back. Will the Minister ask the new Secretary of State to look at this again, not least because reversing the cut would save money by helping many disabled people to get into work and pay taxes?

[Lord Freud]

At one level, the new Secretary of State will clearly look at his whole portfolio with a critical eye. At another level, there may be changes in who gets the higher-rate mobility component to allow them to qualify for the Motability scheme. More people are on the higher rate under PIP than was the case under DLA. Indeed, more people with mental health issues are going on to PIP than would have received DLA. So, while there is a change in who gets the top-level mobility component and is therefore entitled to the Motability scheme, the absolute number qualifying for the Motability scheme is now moving up. As I said, there are now 24,000 more people on the Motability scheme than there were in 2013.

Motability

Baroness Thomas of Winchester Excerpts

Monday 7th March 2016 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Baroness Thomas of Winchester]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will reassess as a matter of urgency the Personal Independence Payment assessment which has led to many working-age disabled people losing their existing entitlement to a Motability car.

[Baroness Thomas of Winchester (LD)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper and declare an interest in that I have a Motability car myself.

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Baroness Altmann) (Con)]

My Lords, there are now more people on the Motability scheme than before the personal independence payment was introduced and there is £175 million of transitional support for those who lose entitlement. Personal independence payment maintains the key principles of disability living allowance while better targeting support at those with the greatest needs. The Government are committed to its safe, secure rollout and have no plans to reassess it.

[Baroness Thomas of Winchester]

Notwithstanding what the Minister has said, does she not agree that it is one thing for a working-age person not to receive enough points at the first assessment to be entitled to a Motability car but quite another to have your existing Motability vehicle snatched away, not because you have got better but because the test has been made impossibly harsh? Does that not run counter to the Government’s aim to halve the number of disabled people who are out of work?

[Baroness Altmann]

The Government are absolutely committed to supporting disabled people but the disability living allowance was inconsistent and subjective whereas the personal independence payment assessment is more consistent and fairer.

Housing: Underoccupancy Charge

Baroness Thomas of Winchester Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

To start with, roughly 40% of people knew about the discretionary housing payments—that figure has now increased to 66%, I think. So there is information out there. I thank the noble Baroness for making the point that the Supreme Court is looking at this area right at this moment—today; I am necessarily more circumscribed than normal in some of what I can say on this area in the next few minutes.

[Baroness Thomas of Winchester (LD)]

My Lords, have the Government thought of changing the law so that the partners or spouses of disabled people who are also their carers would be eligible to have the spare room—which is often needed for very bulky items such as hoists, wheelchairs and so on, as well as a bed—so that the carer, who is the husband, wife or family member, may have what one might call respite sleeping?

[Lord Freud]

The noble Baroness has put her finger on a Supreme Court issue, which I will just have to duck today.

Welfare Reform and Work Bill

Baroness Thomas of Winchester Excerpts

Monday 29th February 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lansley (Con)]

My Lords, I shall contribute briefly to this debate. As noble Lords have already said, we have had substantive, detailed debates both in Committee and on Report in this place and in another place, and I do not want to repeat at length arguments made then.

We should not underestimate the value and importance of the further enhancements that my noble friend has announced to the House. They respond directly to many of the points made in the debate. From my point of view, there is specialist support for those with mental health issues, to which the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, rightly referred. With the noble Lord, Lord Layard, in his place, I think we can look forward to strong cross-departmental working between DWP and the Department of Health, with the therapists required being recruited to support the rollout of the access to psychological therapies programme to be completed by 2017-18. That gives us, for the first time, a realistic hope that those who are out of work with mental health problems—largely depression and anxiety—can have access to psychological therapies sufficiently quickly that they can be supported back into work before their condition deteriorates. It is one of the abiding characteristics of the failure of the work-related activity group that people have not had the support they needed both into work and for the treatment of their condition at the earliest possible stage.

These are important enhancements. As my noble friend Lord Young said, the flexible support fund responds to the points made. For those who are in the existing work-related activity group who are not to be cash losers, the enhancement of removing the 52-week rule will put them in a good position to be incentivised and supported into work, and encouraged to do so.

In response to the points made not least by some of our friends in another place, and on the point about improving the assessment, particularly for those with chronic or progressive conditions, the work capability assessment is really important. For example, it responds to the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Low, when he talked about Jeremy Lefroy’s speech, which was all about improving the work capability assessment. That responds directly to that.

The noble Lord, Lord Low, quoted extensively from the debate in the other place, but did not quote those who were in the majority. I am not going to have a corresponding series of quotations, but I regret that he did not get to the nub of the matter. The nub was that not only was the vote won but the argument was won. The nub of the matter was expressed by Paul Maynard, Member of Parliament for Blackpool North and Cleveleys, who in the course of commenting on a number of government policies to support those with disabilities—he was talking of the Government’s support for the Disability Confident campaign—in one phrase encapsulated the reason why the majority in another place supported the Government’s proposal and rejected this House’s amendment. He said:

“We all accept that the status quo is inadequate, and it would be the worst of all worlds to lock in a failed policy for the work-related activity group. That would benefit no one at all”.—[Official Report, Commons, 23/2/16; col. 207.]

I hope that your Lordships accept that the Government’s policy should be implemented. I am afraid that it would be continuing in exactly the same vein that was criticised in the other place if they tried to delay the implementation and remain with the status quo; that will be the inevitable consequence of passing the amendment in lieu proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Low. If we are to move to a better system to help and support people into work, we need to do it now, rather than remain with a failed status quo.

[Baroness Thomas of Winchester (LD)]

My Lords, I hope that I will not be considered to be lowering the tone of this debate if I ask the Minister a few practical questions about the concessions that he is offering and to say where I stand.

The Minister says that the funding within a flexible support fund will increase by £15 million a year to ensure that JCP targets the money at claimants with a health condition or disability. That is, of course, welcome—but which particular person within JCP will be doing this? Is it the decision-maker or the disability employment adviser? We know that there are not nearly enough DEAs to go around, so I am struggling to picture who will engage with the claimant to help them. There are also work coaches—will it be the work coaches and, if so, are there enough to go round, one to every Jobcentre Plus office? Will that person offer help to the claimant, or will they wait for it to be requested? If they wait, it will not happen, because how will claimants know about it? I do not suppose that they read Hansard.

The Minister says that the money might be used to pay for an internet connection at the claimant’s home, but who will teach them how to use this internet connection, particularly if their health condition poses problems? He may think that I sound sceptical, but I am afraid that is because, from long experience, I know that what Ministers say at the Dispatch Box and what actually happens on the ground are two very different things.

Furthermore, the Minister’s offer that the reassessment can be requested if a person with a long-term condition feels that they have got worse is just a restatement of the existing position. How long would people have to wait for a reassessment?

I welcome unreservedly the abolition of the 52-week limit for the permitted work rule, which I always thought was absolutely daft.

Finally, I agree with all those people who say that the Government have got things the wrong way round. Let us have a White Paper first and then see what needs to be done in this whole area, in the light of the proposals. I shall be voting for the amendment.

Welfare Reform and Work Bill

Baroness Thomas of Winchester Excerpts

Wednesday 27th January 2016 Lords Chamber

I ask the Minister just one question: is it really the intention of the Bill to make it so hard for hundreds of thousands of disabled people to get into work? Frankly, I cannot see where the incentive is: far from there being an incentive, I see a huge disincentive.

[Baroness Thomas of Winchester (LD)]

My Lords, cutting the benefit of those who are fit for work but unemployed might act as an incentive but it will really not work for those who are found not fit for work. It is likely to have the opposite effect, pushing some in the WRAG further from employment. One fact that has not come out is that it will surely increase enormously the number of work capability assessment appeals—it will probably overload the system.

Muscular Dystrophy UK has found that the extra £30 a week is invaluable to fund those disabled people in the WRAG who, for example, need to get to interviews or to volunteering work, perhaps with a support worker, or to work experience for which Access to Work is not available. Often, suitable work, volunteering or work experience is some way away from where the disabled person lives, so the cost of transport has to be taken into consideration. As for their DLA or PIP taking up the slack, that is not, unlike ESA, an income replacement. It pays for the extra costs of being disabled, and is all too often spent on topping up a disabled person’s direct payment. Another expense common to many disabled people is the need for extra heating because of their condition. Putting an extra sweater on simply is not the answer.

I am sure the Minister will tell us that this is all about trade-offs, and that for all those people made poorer by this cut, there are other things that mitigate their situation, such as increases in the personal tax allowance and the national living wage, and better support in finding a job. But none of these things will help those disabled people who are nowhere near paying tax now, and who want to volunteer or try work experience in order to build up their CV.

Turning to Clause 14 and the impact on universal credit, we have heard extensively from the noble Baronesses, Lady Grey-Thompson and Lady Lister, about how this particular cut is not well enough understood. It is also not well enough understood that universal credit has taken a huge hit from the Treasury since its inception several years ago. We ought to hear more about that and I think we will when we come on to the work allowances, which reflect this, in the next amendment.

Currently, disabled people working more than 16 hours a week are entitled to the disabled workers element of working tax credit. It is currently payable to those who have a disability or condition that makes it more difficult for them to find and sustain employment and can be claimed, not by taking the work capability assessment, but by being passported from DLA/PIP. Under the changes in the Bill, anyone who requires additional support because of a health condition will have to take the WCA, even if they are working more than 16 hours a week. It really does not make sense. If they are found to have limited capability for work, after 2017 any new claimant will not receive this additional support. No wonder it is commonly agreed that disabled people, many of whom are living in poverty, are yet again being hit hard by the Government.

Welfare Reform and Work Bill

Baroness Thomas of Winchester Excerpts

Monday 25th January 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I apologise for not having taken an active part in Committee, for reasons outside my control. Noble Lords will be aware of my interest in these areas, and I particularly declare my links with Mencap and Autism Wales. I warmly support the amendment moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell. Attention needs to be given to the matters that she raised for two or three particularly important reasons. All our experience over the past 20 or 30 years has shown that having specific, detailed reports coming forward before Parliament in a coherent manner has enabled a focus to be given to issues relating to disability and, in particular, disability in the context of employment. It has enabled both Houses of Parliament to move forward in making better provision. The recommendations put forward in this amendment are important in that context.

The amendments are timely because, unfortunately, we are seeing a backward movement with regard to the employment of disabled people in many areas. We are seeing, for understandable reasons, the closure of some specific facilities that were available, such as Remploy and other similar organisations, where the argument was that disabled people would be employed within the mainstream and that, therefore, specific provisions did not need to be made in this way. That is fine, provided that that employment in the mainstream is available. However, as we see economic pressure increasing in both the private and the public sectors, the reality is that the number of jobs for disabled people is very often squeezed. I regret to say that in the public sector, jobs that had very often been specifically offered to disabled people because of their difficulties are the first to be cut when financial pressures lead to a reduction in resources and employment. For those reasons, I believe that this amendment, and the one put forward by the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, are important and should be taken on board. The resolution of the issues underlying them should certainly exercise our minds.

[Baroness Thomas of Winchester (LD)]

My Lords, I, too, am happy to support the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell. Although the Bill as drafted requires the Government to report on progress towards their aim of full employment, there is no reference to reporting on the employment of disabled people, even though the Government made a manifesto commitment to halving the disability employment gap, as the noble Lord, Lord Low, has said. This is an ambitious target and, of course, a welcome one, not just for the economy as a whole but for disabled people themselves, whose talents and contributions would otherwise be wasted.

Full employment cannot be achieved without getting more disabled people into work, so why are we not satisfied with the Government’s assertion that the amendment is not necessary because a report on the aim is already in the Bill? It is because we are not convinced by what the Government have told us so far. The current employment rate for disabled people, as we have heard, is about 48%. For those with learning difficulties, it is only 8%, and for those with autism, it is 15%. The gap between the employment rate for disabled people and the rest of the population has remained at about 30% for more than a decade, as the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, has said.

However, as the recent report Fixing Broken Britain? from Frank Field and Andrew Forsey has shown, existing policies, such as the Work Programme, have not been very successful in finding work for claimants with disabilities. It is estimated elsewhere that only about one in 10 of those on the Work Programme and in receipt of ESA have satisfactory employment outcomes; that is, keeping a job for at least three months. Evidence from Mind indicates that only 8% of people with mental health problems who have gone through the work programme have achieved a long-term job outcome.

The Government originally set a target for contractors of achieving a “job outcome” for at least 22% of ESA claimants. This was then reduced to 13%. Neither target had been met by the end of the last Parliament. The reduction in the number of people supported by the Access to Work programme, the reduction in the number of disability employment advisers at Jobcentre Plus centres and the job opportunities for disabled people in Remploy factories, to which the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, referred, have all played their part in the lack of progress in trying to get more disabled people into work. I fear that other proposals in this Bill will make the situation worse.

While announcements in the spending review on the provision of specialist employment support are to be welcomed, this is going to be offset by a cut of around £30 a week for new claimants in the ESA WRAG. For those whose recovery from, for example, chemotherapy will take some time, this cut in support is likely to push them further from the job market. The Joseph Rowntree Foundation found no evidence that disability employment rates are improved by reducing benefits.

In conclusion, it is unclear from the Bill, and from what Ministers have told us so far, how the Government intend to deliver on their commitment to narrow the disability employment gap. We need those answers and we clearly need this amendment to the Bill.

[Lord Lansley (Con)]

My Lords, perhaps I may intervene briefly to say a word about Amendment 42 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, and Amendment 43 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Layard. In Committee, we discussed this briefly. While I have previously made it clear that I would seek to minimise those occasions on which we seek in statute to specify the circumstances in which people should access NHS treatment, that principally should be determined on a clinical basis. Past experience has demonstrated the value of the Improving Access to Psychological Therapies programme in providing assistance to people with mental health and behavioural disorders, especially anxiety and depression. Your Lordships will know that the numbers who are in receipt of benefit and who are out of work by reason of those conditions has significantly increased over the last two decades. We need to respond to that.

The IAPT programme, which begun under the Labour Government before 2010, was continued and rolled out during the coalition Government after 2010. I stress that the importance of this will, I hope, give the Minister the opportunity to say that, while not accepting the letter of Amendment 43, the Government are sympathetic to the spirit of it. After 2012-14, there has been a 25% increase in the number of therapists providing psychological therapies through the National Health Service. That rollout is continuing. Health Education England anticipates that the increasing supply resulting from its commissions for training places for psychological therapists should arrive at the point whereby at 2017-18 the demand for such therapy is able to be matched by the supply of trained therapists. We have an opportunity, in the timeframe anticipated for the measures in the Bill, to make it more certain that somebody with anxiety and depression requiring access to therapies while signing on for benefits should be able to access that therapy. I hope that the Minister can give that positive response to these amendments.

Benefits: Sanctions

Baroness Thomas of Winchester Excerpts

Thursday 10th September 2015 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Bishop of Peterborough]

My Lords—

[Baroness Thomas of Winchester (LD)]

My Lords—

[Noble Lords]

Bishop!

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Freud]

Jobcentre Plus people do have discretion. There is some, although less, discretion for Work Programme providers. We layer up that discretion with decisions from our decision-makers. It can then go to mandatory reconsideration and on to appeal, so there is a system to allow these things to be reviewed very flexibly. On the other point, the decision that older people should get free travel is one which was made by several Governments in the past.

[Baroness Thomas of Winchester]

My Lords—

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, the Liberal Democrats have not had a turn in this Question. If we proceed quickly to the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, we might then be able to have a question from the Labour Benches.

[Baroness Thomas of Winchester]

My Lords, would the Minister consider asking the Social Security Advisory Committee to conduct a review of sanctions policy on ESA claimants, as they did for JSA claimants with the Oakley review?

[Lord Freud]

The reality is that the number of ESA claimants being sanctioned is very small—it is running at around 1%—and we look at those cases very carefully. We do not have any plans to look at that specifically at this stage, given that it has steadied out.

Universal Credit (Waiting Days) (Amendment) Regulations 2015

Baroness Thomas of Winchester Excerpts

Monday 13th July 2015 Lords Chamber

I return to where I started: we in Labour back the idea of universal credit. We want it to work but it has had a very shaky start, it is still deeply unstable and its future has suddenly been thrown into severe doubt and confusion by the Chancellor in his summer Budget. Why put yet another burden on it at this difficult time? I urge the Minister to think again. Millions of people will eventually depend on universal credit. They need it to work so that they can work and live and pay their rent and feed their children. For their sake, the Minister should step back from this measure today.

[Baroness Thomas of Winchester (LD)]

My Lords, this debate perhaps illustrates why the way in which the House scrutinises important, not to say controversial, statutory instruments is not satisfactory and is rising to the top of the procedural agenda. I know that there is a move afoot for a delaying power; in fact, we now have the Motion of the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock. I have also put forward what I believe is a better way of debating controversial SIs, with advisory amendments being suggested. But for the moment these two types of Motion, moved by my noble friend Lord German and the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, are the best that we can do without killing the regulations. However, I should make it clear that I see no merit in the Government’s proposals at all. It is tempting simply to recommend that the regulations be annulled. The suggestion in my noble friend Lord German’s Motion for removing the housing benefit element from UC waiting days, from the Government’s very own advisory committee, is the very least that the Government should do. However, I will support the Motion of the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, as the second-best option after that.

The purpose of the Social Security Advisory Committee is to advise the Government on secondary legislation and to issue occasional reports in this area. Its report on these regulations details what it calls “compelling evidence” as to why they should not proceed, received in response to its consultation. The Government’s reasoning is that the new arrangements refer only to new claims for universal credit made after 3 August this year and do not apply to certain vulnerable groups or those migrating to UC from existing benefits. They therefore believe that those who qualify for UC by a means test are likely to have savings to fall back on because they will be,

“coming from the world of employment”.

In any case, they then say rather vaguely,

“advances of benefit will be available to help those who are in financial need”.

This is a thoroughly misleading sentence which turns out not to be entirely true, as I shall demonstrate.

We are told that the principle behind the waiting days policy in UC is,

“not designed to provide cover for moving between jobs or brief spells of unemployment”,

although this somewhat sniffy comment does not take account of the fact that universal credit, like PIP, is an in-work as well as an out-of-work benefit. I have been very fair to the Minister by spelling out the Government’s rationale for the policy. So why is the policy being questioned by not just the SSAC but our very own Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee? I prefer to call that committee by its old name, the Merits Committee, because the clue as to what it does is in the name. I am very pleased that the chairman of the committee, who has been writing letters to the Minister, is here.

The committee has been like a terrier with a bone. First, it points out that, as the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, said, no impact assessment giving costs and savings has been provided, so there is insufficient information to gain a clear understanding of what is going on. I take the noble Baroness’s point that the impact assessment would in any case probably be out of date but that is no excuse for the Government not having done it. The equality assessment is not a substitute for a properly done impact assessment. There is a glaringly obvious example of why an impact assessment is vital. The Government maintain that benefit advances are available for those in financial need, as I said just now. But the SSAC report tells us that the Government admit that advances will not be available to everyone, especially not to those who will not be able to afford the repayment. So what will these people do when they are left with no money for six weeks while almost certainly having debts, being in danger of being thrown out of their accommodation for non-payment of rent and with no food?

No wonder the Government have not done an impact assessment. If they had done one properly, they would have had to admit that there will indeed be extra burdens on landlords, local authorities—particularly if they have to give out loans—housing charities and food banks, and quite possibly the police and health services. But, I hear the Minister saying, “These are people from the world of work, surely not those at the bottom of the pile. They must have some savings, mustn’t they?”. But the evidence provided to the SSAC does not back this up. As my noble friend Lord German said, research by HSBC showed that 34% of the UK population have less than £250 in savings and do not have the means to cover a week’s rent and living costs if the breadwinner’s job were to end. Scottish Widows found that of those with no savings, two-thirds had debts. There are lots of similar comments. We also know what happened when there was a computer glitch at RBS recently: many of its wage-earning customers said that they could not manage to pay their outgoings, even for a very short time.

The SSAC report sums up the argument by saying that the question as to the balance between those with sufficient savings and those without has not been resolved in the supporting paperwork from the DWP. What the Government seem not to have understood is that what they call the “world of employment” might mean a very low-paid job in an expensive place such as London.

Turning to the crucial question of the housing benefit element of UC, the SSAC says:

“The fact that the Committee received so many submissions from landlords and their representatives is an indication of the degree of anxiety that has been generated in the housing market by this proposal”.

The Cornwall Residential Landlords Association is more forthright. It says:

“Many landlords have expressed concern about the payment of Universal Credit at the end of a calendar month leading to late payment of rents and other bills. Adding a further barrier to claimants being able to meet their financial obligations is likely to result in an increase in the number of landlords no longer willing to accept these people as tenants”,

as my noble friend Lord German said. It added:

“The increased risk of homelessness will add to the costs of policing and health services”.

The Notting Hill Housing Trust also makes the point that having rent arrears has the potential to inhibit the free movement of labour, thus hobbling those who are looking for work in as wide an area as possible.

Turning back to the absent impact assessment which should have provided costs and savings, the Minister’s letter to the chairman of our secondary legislation committee gives us more information. It says that the anticipated savings will all be spent in giving additional support for claimants in Jobcentre Plus offices but we have heard before of all the support that claimants are now supposed to be getting from JCP offices. As for the impact assessment not having been done, the reason is given that the legislation does not directly impose obligations on public or private bodies. In other words, it is almost admitted that parts of impact assessments are tick-box exercises, often not worth the paper they are written on. That is something those of us interested in statutory instruments know all about.

However, I am concerned not just with process but with the end result. I fear that the result of the Government proceeding with this arrangement will be real hardship for many of those affected. The Government do not seem to acknowledge that many UC claimants will have been trying to find work before they apply, which makes this proposal particularly harsh. I urge the Government to withdraw the regulations—and if not, to take the housing benefit element out before pressing ahead.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, I support my noble friend Lady Sherlock’s Motion. However, I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope, was not able to go ahead with his original fatal Motion, not least because when we debated the earlier waiting days regulations on 19 November, I promised that I would see him on the barricades were he to do so. I, too, oppose these regulations. I will inevitably be repeating some of the arguments already put so ably, but I hope to provide reinforcements in doing so.

I accept that the universal credit regulations will affect fewer people than did those for JSA/ESA, because of how universal credit operates. However, as we have heard, those who are affected stand to be hit harder because of monthly payments and because the universal credit payment includes more elements—in particular housing, to which the Motion of the noble Lord, Lord German, which I also support, relates. The payment also includes childcare costs and children’s allowances.

As the Child Poverty Action Group—I declare an interest as its honorary president—points out in its evidence to SSAC, this means that those with high housing costs and/or with children will be particularly adversely affected. In addition, SSAC points out that carers and lone parents of children aged under three, who do not have to serve waiting days on income support, will have to do so on universal credit.