Health and Safety: Common Sense Common Safety
Baroness Thomas of Winchester Excerpts(14 years ago)
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Baroness Thomas of Winchester
My Lords, I, too, am grateful for the opportunity to speak in this debate and to mention something which I hope falls fair and square within the scope of the admirable report of the noble Lord, Lord Young, but which is not explicitly mentioned in it. I refer to the health and safety aspects of the use—or, rather, the lack of use—of many hydrotherapy pools and the specialist equipment in them, and the disturbing evidence which the Muscular Dystrophy Campaign is amassing that shows what a widespread problem it is. I declare an interest as a vice-president of that organisation.
I am grateful to Mr Mark Field from Droitwich for getting to the bottom of how the perceived problem of health and safety is causing many hydrotherapy pools to stand empty when they could be helping so many people, in particular children with incurable, progressive conditions. Mark Field is the father of Murray, who has Duchenne muscular dystrophy. Mark is also the health and safety manager for a small manufacturing company in the West Midlands. He has held this position for a number of years and holds a 2008 national general certificate in occupational health and safety—July 2006 specification. Mr Field is no chancer and has a great deal of respect for health and safety legislation, which is there of course, as we have heard, to protect both the working population and the general public. However, he is convinced that some companies and organisations—including, I fear, the NHS—use certain legislation to hide behind.
The typical response from an organisation wishing to protect or limit access to its hydrotherapy pool is to say that the pool cannot be used because there are no staff available and health and safety policy precludes its use by anyone other than a competent member of staff, or because there are no trained staff available and the health and safety policy precludes use by untrained personnel. I shall cite two good examples from the Muscular Dystrophy Campaign. Brislington Enterprise College is a newly built school in Bristol with a hydrotherapy pool. It was built under PFI, which was supposed to allow community use at weekends and holidays. However, once built, the contractor said that that could not happen because of health and safety issues. In another case, in Essex, a muscular dystrophy patient said: “I’ve been frustrated by the failings of the NHS to provide hydrotherapy and suitable physiotherapy. I was referred several years ago but the local NHS hydrotherapy pool was out of use for two years. When it reopened I was told staff could not help me due to health and safety regulations”.
So what can be done? According to Mr Field, a simple change to the company’s or organisation’s health and safety policy is needed to allow competent persons, either employees or non-employees, to use the pool and equipment, such as hoists, after a short instruction course by the organisation. Parents of boys with Duchenne muscular dystrophy, for instance, are very well versed in how hoists work as they have to use them all the time. They have already received training in the use of lifting and hoisting equipment and, although hoists and lifts can vary in their design, I am sure that they do not change very much. The organisation could even charge a small fee for training competent people to use the equipment. I am sure the parents and helpers of children with severe mobility problems would be willing to get together to minimise the cost. I do not expect my noble friend the Minister who is to reply to the debate to know whether this may be a feasible way forward—although I do know that he is a swimmer—but I would be grateful for a reply in writing later, perhaps with a copy for the Library. I should make it clear, having said he is a swimmer, that I think hydrotherapy pools would be far too warm for him.
Following on from my Oral Question on Tuesday about hydrotherapy, there is general agreement that the need is very great and that it is a terrible waste for many of these wonderful pools to be lying empty for much of the day because of the lack of trained staff. If this small change was made to a company’s or organisation’s health and safety policy, and more competent people were thereby authorised to enable those who need hydrotherapy to use these pools, what a breakthrough that would be.
Welfare Reform
Baroness Thomas of Winchester Excerpts(14 years ago)
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Lord Freud
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Young, for that question. We have an integrated strategy. Measures in the CSR will ensure that mentoring takes place; there is also the new enterprise allowance and so on. We are building those packages and will announce details in due course. Our main change to Access to Work is to make sure that when someone goes for a job they have the funding required. No one will take someone if they do not know whether they will receive Access to Work. That is the main way in which we are refocusing Access to Work, which we think is a good programme.
Baroness Thomas of Winchester
My Lords, I, too, warmly welcome my noble friend’s repeated Statement today. I have one very simple, fundamental question to which I do not know the answer. How much discretion will decision-makers at Jobcentre Plus have about the sorts of work that jobseekers will be compelled to take? We hear that the conditionality rules will be tougher than those set by the previous Government. Let us suppose that a graduate or a highly qualified person can find only a cleaning job. Will they be compelled to take it and does the decision-maker have any discretion about that?
Lord Freud
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, who has been incredibly involved and interested in the development of the universal credit. Jobcentre Plus is structured in such a way that there is a very light touch in the early months which becomes gradually firmer and starts being a heavy hand on the shoulder after six months. There is a reality period. Most people look after themselves and find a job, but some need to have the reality of their position in the marketplace brought home to them, so that they match what work they can realistically expect to do with what is out there. You are much better off being in work and looking for a better job from an in-work position than from an ever longer period of inactivity.
Disabled People’s Right to Control (Pilot Scheme) (England) Regulations 2010
Baroness Thomas of Winchester Excerpts(14 years ago)
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Baroness Campbell of Surbiton
My Lords, I also really welcome the regulations. I, too, pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, for introducing them; it was a very inspirational thing to do. It was risky and I think it will pay great dividends in the future. How nice that all sides of the Committee can support this initiative.
The right to control is, as the Minister said, a significant landmark for disabled people. For decades, disabled people have campaigned for the right to have choice and control over our lives. A small thing, you may say, but it is something that we have not been able to take for granted in the way that non-disabled people have. Now we have equality.
The regulations take us a long way towards the goal of choice and control. If implemented well—and they do need to be implemented well—they have the potential to transform the way we live. By exercising the right to control, disabled people will inevitably become more confident in taking personal responsibility for their role in the community and family life. It will enable greater freedom to plan and pursue educational, work or volunteering opportunities. In short, disabled people have at last been put in the driving seat of their own destiny. What is more, this is a legal right, enshrined in legislation—not a gift or a charitable favour, for which one must be grateful, but a right. This is a real step forward for disabled people.
As the Minister said, one of the key articles in the UN convention on the rights of disabled people is Article 19. It concerns the right of disabled people to live independently and be included in the community. As noble Lords will be aware, the UN convention states clearly that disabled people should have and enjoy the same human rights as everyone else. It sets out obligations on states to ensure that those rights are met. The right to control goes straight to the heart of Article 19 and provides a vehicle to realise this right and, consequently, goes a long way towards implementing the convention. That is terrific.
In addition, the way in which the right to control legislation has been conceived and developed accords well with the UN convention duty on states to involve disabled people in the planning and implementation of such rights. Both the previous Government and now the coalition Government have involved disabled people at every stage of developing the right to control legislation and now its implementation. I should know because I am the chair of the advisory group of disabled people and experts in independent living who helped to shape the legislation, proposals for the trailblazers and the evaluation. Everything about us was discussed with us during this process. The seven trailblazers are following the same model of co-production at a local level. This will ensure that the experience and knowledge of disabled people permeates how the right to control continues to be delivered and developed.
The way in which we have developed the right to control over the past two years, as an advisory group and on the ground with our buddies, has taken the personalisation agenda a step further and set a new dynamic support service culture whereby disabled people, who once had to apply to five or six different agencies for support, will now engage with one support planning process. This is something for which disabled people have been asking for a long time. A new public support service where disabled people will, again by legislative right, decide for themselves how best to use their resource allocation is at the heart of this process. We will be able to devise creative solutions of our own for our own support, and exercise as much control in the commissioning of the outcome as we feel able. If you do not feel that you can control everything, you do not have to; you can have a plurality approach.
I know that some noble Lords have concerns that some disabled people may not be able to take that kind of control over their lives in this way. However, I can reassure them that on the advisory group we looked at this issue and made sure that the right permits flexibility and will be well supported throughout the process. Flexibility, of course, is the key. Disabled people can ask for a particular service to be provided or take a mix of existing services and a direct payment, or, in my case, use a direct payment to purchase all their support themselves and be totally 100 per cent in control. However, I know that most disabled people are not control freaks like me.
There will be support and advice for those who want their payments to be managed by a third party, and advice, training and guidance for people who want to employ personal assistants. Advocacy and support will be an integral part of the right to control. I am particularly keen to see how well the trailblazers fulfil this important part of the right-to-control culture and keen that we scrutinise it as it develops.
Peer support is incredibly powerful in demonstrating to disabled people what can be achieved. It is another important part of trailblazer activity. Before I began employing my personal assistants more than 20 years ago, I needed to observe how other disabled people managed their employees and I learnt from their mistakes—as I am sure others have learnt from mine.
We all have dreams or expectations from life; disabled people are no different. Delivered successfully, a right to control will change for ever the way in which the state responds to our needs. I am confident that, by transferring power from the state to the individual in this way, we will overturn decades of low expectation and witness a transformation in people’s capability and well-being.
However, I recognise that this is an ambitious project. We are overturning a culture of dependency and philanthropy. There will be teething problems as we bed it down. However, I have been extremely pleased to be part of this transformative exercise. I have seen how people have grown, even during the two years in which I have had the privilege of chairing the advisory group. I am looking forward to seeing the success of the trailblazers and their eventual rollout across the country.
Baroness Thomas of Winchester
My Lords, as my noble friend said, it is just over a year ago that the band of Peers who speak on DWP matters welcomed the amendments to the Welfare Reform Bill, now Act, of 2009 which have triggered these regulations for pilots. I, too, can give them a hearty welcome.
I said a year ago that the amendments, now regulations, would herald a real shift in power from the state to disabled people, ensuring that they are in the driving seat when it comes to the support they need. I seek a few clarifications and have a few questions.
The amendments, which inserted a new clause, included a power for the Secretary of State to issue directions under existing community care legislation to deliver alignment under existing enactments. The then Minister, the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie of Luton, to whom I also pay warm tribute, said:
“Alignment means delivering the effect of the right to control to individuals in receipt of adult community care services”.—[Official Report, 27/10/09; col. 1114.]
My noble friend Lord Freud responded that it made far more sense to base the right-to-control approach on community care services, which are likely to be required on a sustained and long-term basis, than on the more transitory requirements surrounding support for disabled people to secure employment.
I should be grateful for clarification on that point. I think it means that adult community care is not included in these regulations because it comes under other legislation on direct payments, but that under these regulations authorities are enabled to share information about community care. Is this correct? Presumably this means that assessments will be shared so that disabled people do not have to undergo multiple assessments.
We all know how stretched local authorities’ financial resources will be. Will any support be provided to authorities to enable them to develop and implement a single assessment system? Will there be any practical support for organisations that provide information, advice, peer support and advocacy? There is an obligation for authorities to give to the disabled person information about organisations that provide advice and assistance, but there is no duty to sustain those organisations, nor is there a right to advocacy. Perhaps my noble friend can say what support there will be for the pilots.
Having read the document helpfully provided by the Office for Disability Issues, Making Choice and Control a Reality for Disabled People, I end by asking my noble friend one or two questions arising from that document. On page 20, I see that the Office for Disability Issues is working with the Department of Health to consider allowing, within the trailblazers only, third parties to carry out non-complex assessment reviews. Are we talking about people other than healthcare professionals? I was not sure. If we are, there is already a certain amount of controversy about those who carry out the work capability assessment, and it is important to get all these assessments right.
Another small point is the rule that a disabled person has to be informed in writing of various things. We are told that this means,
“in a format that is accessible to the person”.
If that is what the regulation means, why does it not say so?
Finally, have we got anywhere with the idea that the excellent access to work provisions might be guaranteed to a disabled person before the offer of a job, so that a potential employer would be more encouraged to offer that person employment? I hope that my noble friend can answer those questions—perhaps in writing, if not today. However, in general, I welcome the regulations most warmly.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Freud, for his full explanation of these regulations and for his kind words. We certainly welcome the introduction of the right-to-control trailblazers, which, as all noble Lords who have spoken identified, flow from the Welfare Reform Act 2009. The Minister referred to them as groundbreaking; the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, referred to them as transformational and overturning a culture of dependency. I very much agree with that. The noble Baroness was the driving force behind the development of the right to control. She described the legislative process as one of co-production. It would seem that this approach has very much continued in the development of the regulations before us. The right to control is predicated on the principle that disabled people are the experts in their own lives: and that their being passive recipients of whatever support is deemed appropriate, and how that support is delivered, is no longer acceptable. I agree.
I have one or two specific questions that perhaps the Minister can help me with. The Independent Living Fund is not one of the qualifying services, although it is one of the six funded services that are to be included in the right-to-control trailblazer areas. Notwithstanding that further applications are to be considered during the current financial year, my understanding is that the right to control can still apply to existing recipients. I should be grateful if the Minister could confirm that. Can he also explain the position for future years? What are the planned allocations over the CSR period? If he cannot tell us today, he might let us know when that information will be available.
Work Choice is one of the qualifying services. According to the DWP website, contracts have now been awarded for the delivery of that programme. Can the Minister say a little about how those contractual arrangements sit alongside the right to control? For example, will the duty of the responsible authority to provide information to the beneficiary under Regulation 7 remain with the Secretary of State or, by agreement, be passed to the third-party provider? In second arrangements with providers, what estimate has been made of the likely numbers of people who will opt for arrangements other than those available under these contracts? More generally, can the Minister say whether any of the six funding streams are likely to be inculcated in whole or in part into the universal credit when introduced, or if any of the relevant services within the meaning of Section 39 of the Welfare Reform Act would be so included? I understand that we may get more detailed views on that later in the week.
It is understood that the Work Choice programme, when introduced, will focus very much on an individualised approach to supporting people towards and into work. That is something that we should support. Can the Minister say something about the relationship between that programme and the right to control? As the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, said, concern was expressed during our deliberations on the Welfare Reform Bill that expressly excluding adult community care services from the legislation would substantially diminish benefits from the right-to-control approach. The reason for the exclusion was that similar provisions exist under other legislation. We are told that the Department of Health will issue directions to local authorities to ensure that people assessed for adult community care services living in the pilot areas will have the equivalent facilities of the right to control. Given that the regulations have now been laid and that the pilots are due to commence shortly, have those directions now been finalised?
Supporting People is a vital, non-statutory programme that helps about a million of our most vulnerable citizens each year. It is a sign of the times that it is considered a reasonably protected budget, although it suffers a 12 per cent real-time reduction over the CSR period. It is a qualifying service for the purposes of these regulations, to the extent that it helps disabled people to live independently. Funding from the centre is no longer ring-fenced and there is great concern that local authorities, under extreme financial pressure because of budget cuts, will shift resources to other programmes. To the extent to which that happens, vulnerable people who are eligible to benefit from these and other regulations will suffer. Will the Minister say how this issue is to be monitored?
It is comforting that the DFG regime has been brought within the right-to-control pilots. Again, the budget will be under extreme pressure because local authorities typically top up their central capital allocation. Obviously, their scope for doing so is diminished. Will the Minister deal with one point? It is focused on the changes to buildings, but it should cover the provision of equipment as well. Do the processes envisaged here facilitate the recycling of equipment? I recall instances in the past such as when I was on a local authority and someone had a stairlift fitted. Sadly, within two weeks, they died, but it was pretty much impossible to get the stairlift taken out of that property and installed in another property with an equivalent need. I am not sure that I have my mind around all the processes envisaged here, so I should like to check whether that is facilitated, or not precluded. Obviously, that would damage the interests of disabled people.
Finally, could the Minister remind us of the basis on which the pilot areas were chosen?
In conclusion, these regulations are a hugely important step forward and a tribute to a lot of work that has been done by many people, particularly the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell. They give us a chance to test the proposals in practice and open up opportunities for disabled people to transform the quality of their lives. We give these regulations our full support.
Employment and Support Allowance (Transitional Provisions, Housing Benefit and Council Tax Benefit) (Existing Awards) Regulations 2010
Baroness Thomas of Winchester Excerpts(14 years, 4 months ago)
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Baroness Thomas of Winchester
That this House takes note of the Employment and Support Allowance (Transitional Provisions, Housing Benefit and Council Tax Benefit) (Existing Awards) Regulations 2010 (SI 2010/ 875). First Report from the Merits Committee
Baroness Thomas of Winchester
My Lords, these regulations are about transitional arrangements for the gradual migration of people from incapacity benefits—that is, incapacity benefit, severe disablement allowance and income support on the grounds of incapacity—to employment and support allowance, which will begin in October this year with a small trial run and then, from next February, will be rolled out nationally over the next three years. At the outset I should make it clear that I support the direction of travel of these regulations. My reason for drawing them to the attention of the House is simply that they are very important to the lives of many of the most vulnerable in our society and there are questions that need answers—not least because Citizens Advice, in its evidence to the Social Security Advisory Committee, said that the goalposts appear to have shifted since the introduction of ESA. Another good reason for having this debate is that these regulations were in the previous Government’s pipeline and we need to know where we are now.
Under the regulations everyone on the old incapacity benefits will be retested by an Atos Healthcare professional for the work capability assessment, after which, according to the revised impact assessment for the regulations, 23 per cent of the cohort are expected to be found fit for work and therefore not entitled to any component of ESA. Another reason I was encouraged to table this take note Motion was the Merit Committee’s helpful report—its first report of this Session—and, in particular, Appendix 1, which has a very useful question-and-answer section. The Merits Committee drew attention to these regulations on the grounds of interest to the House. I only wish that they were of interest to more Peers—although I must say that there is a much fuller House now than there usually is when we discuss social security regulations. Although I am extremely pleased to welcome the noble Lord, Lord Knight of Weymouth, to the opposition Front Bench—for these are really his regulations—I wonder where are all the other Peers who might be expected to speak up for the disadvantaged.
We owe a debt of gratitude to the Social Security Advisory Committee, which has published a thoroughgoing report into these regulations. The more I read the committee’s report, the more I realised that there was a lot of complication in the system, although I accept that things will eventually be simpler. Even the Explanatory Memorandum says:
“The introduction of a Transitional Addition to ESA will add some complexity to the benefit system on a short term basis”.
It can say that again.
The House will be delighted that I am not going to list all the complications arising from the different permutations of benefits, tax credits and pensions. Nor will I mention various anomalies resulting from migration, some of which the Government have addressed as a result of the SSAC’s report. However, I will mention just one complication. Contributory ESA is a taxable benefit, whereas for those who were migrated in 1995 from the old invalidity benefit to incapacity benefit there was an income tax exemption. There is a cohort of about 500,000 claimants who theoretically could find themselves liable to pay tax, although it has not yet been decided by HMRC whether to continue to exempt them. As time goes on, that number will drop.
One glimmer of light is that the Budget has increased the amount of tax-free allowance, so I would imagine that the number of claimants owing tax by the time migration is complete will be small. Perhaps my noble friend can tell us when he expects a ruling on this. However, I accept that income tax rules are not part of the regulations but a consequence of them. One reason why this is important is that, as the Explanatory Memorandum says:
“Ministers have committed on several occasions that no existing incapacity benefit customer will see a cash reduction in their benefit on conversion to ESA”.
Turning back to the SSAC’s report, I note that the committee is calling for a delay in the rollout of ESA until various conditions are met. The conditions are that there is a stronger evidence base on what works and whether ESA is achieving its aims of helping more people into work; that the new regime for claimants with a health condition has bedded down; that changes have been made to the WCA as a result of the review by the DWP; and, finally, that there is an upturn in the labour market.
Not surprisingly, this Government are even keener than the previous Government to get cracking with the migration. The last thing that they want is to wait any longer, which I understand. However, the SSAC is not the only body warning about trouble ahead if changes are not made. Professor Gregg, the architect of the sanctions regime in the two most recent Welfare Reform Acts, has now added his voice to those who urge the Government to make radical changes to the way that ESA operates before the migration of IB claimants begins. In particular, he criticises the way in which the system leaves large numbers of failed WCA claimants to languish on jobseeker’s allowance with no prospect of work. Professor Gregg is reported as saying:
“To start moving people who may have been on incapacity benefit for years straight onto jobseeker’s—
allowance—
“is ridiculous. Before wading into the stock, the system has to be right”.
This sentiment is echoed by many groups, including Citizens Advice, which gave valuable evidence to the SSAC. It states:
“ESA was welcomed by many as offering support to those who face significant barriers to working, because of an illness or disability. There seems to be considerable confusion, however, as to whether it is effectively offering help to those who may be able to work with a lot of support. The goalposts appear to have shifted since its introduction, with the current implication being that if a person is able to work at all, they will not be eligible for ESA even if their illness or disability presents a very significant barrier to their finding work”.
It goes on to point out that those who are found to be ineligible for ESA will be moved on to JSA, which offers a lot less support, or perhaps on to no benefits at all, and will therefore be much further away from the help and support they need if they are to return to sustainable work.
In Appendix 1 of the Merits Committee report the department states that claimants on JSA with a health condition may restrict their availability for work provided that the restrictions are “‘reasonable’ given their condition”. It goes on to say that,
“the Department has been looking at what additional support may be required to help them return to work”.
Can my noble friend elaborate on whether that additional support is going to be forthcoming?
In general, something is clearly going wrong with far too many of these work capability assessments. Is it really the case, as we have read, that thousands of vulnerable people, some suffering from terminal cancer, Parkinson’s disease, multiple sclerosis and clinical depression, have had their applications for ESA declined and told to look for work? I have read the Chief Medical Officer’s report published in March this year in which he called for some changes to be made to the descriptors, particularly around fluctuating conditions where exertion is a significant component. He recommended quite a lot of other changes that will have to be legislated for. I hope that this will happen quickly and that the Government will not just rely on the mantra that work is good for people’s health. I, too, can quote Dame Carol Black’s excellent review, published two years ago, of the health of Britain’s working age population in which she says:
“Recent evidence suggests that work can be good for health, reversing the harmful effects of long-term unemployment and prolonged sickness absence”.
I agree with that, but she goes on to say,
“putting people on JSA, which is designed to be a more active benefit than IB by focusing on what people can do rather than what they cannot do, is not enough”.
She calls for more to be done not just to raise aspiration and motivation, but also to address health conditions. She also says quite categorically that:
“Help and support to find work will not be appropriate for all, especially those with more severe health conditions”.
What is needed is a full and independent review of the work capability assessment that looks at the full picture of who should be eligible for ESA and not just at the individual descriptors.
My main questions are, first, to ask my noble friend whether the many criticisms of the way in which the work capability assessment is carried out by Atos Healthcare are being adequately addressed and, secondly, whether he is confident that Jobcentre Plus will have enough trained staff throughout the country from October to give the right support not only to those on the employment side of ESA, but also to those who have been on IB and who may, after migration, find themselves in a very different climate on JSA. Many of these new JSA recipients are likely to have a health condition or disability. Has the department factored into staff planning the increased help that the new JSA recipients will need?
While we are talking about staff, can he tell us the position of the whole of the staffing of JCP? I was alarmed to read in last week’s Official Report for another place, in a debate about jobs and unemployment, that the Minister said categorically that JCP staff would be reduced by freezing external recruitment and not extending fixed-term contracts when they come to an end. Is it not the case that Jobcentre Plus will need all its staff on hand when the migration starts? Although we may be talking about what are now called “back office” staff, along with my noble friend Lord Kirkwood, I think that, in view of their open plan offices, all JCP staff are on the front line, which is splendid. Can my noble friend say whether recruitment into JCP is still going on or whether it is now up to full strength? From the impact assessment I see that a further 700 to 900 full-time staff will be needed for the migration. Does JCP ever advertise its own jobs in JCP offices? Is the sentence in the Explanatory Memorandum, “We are also discussing the allocation of additional funding”, any longer applicable under the heading “Support for Local Authorities”?
Baroness Thomas of Winchester
My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. I think that it has been valuable and I particularly welcome my noble friend Lord German to the DWP brief. He knows that the Chamber is not as full as it is on some matters it deals with, but all the better for that.
I was grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Knight, for explaining that we are in an Alice-through-the-looking-glass situation: my noble friend was the architect of his Government’s plans and now everything is reversed. This debate has brought out some of the real problems. We understand that the medical reports are not disease-specific, as it were; they look at what the person can do rather than what he cannot do.
However, the other side of the coin is the fact that there are an enormous number of appeals and a lot of them are successful, so something is going wrong. I was glad to hear him mention Professor Harrington's review—I remember that I have read it before. Presumably, if he suggests changes to the work capability assessment, that will be factored into my noble friend’s plans for legislation later in the year. Will it be dealt with then?
Lord Freud
I am pleased to clarify. Clearly, we will have Professor Harrington’s report later in the year. Timing depends on the exact nature of any recommendations that he may make. Obviously, we would like as many of those recommendations to be included as we can.
Baroness Thomas of Winchester
I was interested when the Minister said that the programme would be a challenge for Jobcentre Plus offices. That is probably the understatement of the year. I was a bit worried when he said that they will move cases around the network. I hope that that will not be done quite as it sounds—it sounds a rather curious thing to do—and that there will be a lot of telephone recruitment. I hope that it will all work.
I end by saying that my noble friend Lord German had the right phrase when he said, “It ain't what you do, it's the way that you do it”. That should be applied to the regulations. I am most grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate; I look forward to the Minister’s reply by letter, if he has not been able to answer some of the questions.
Social Security (Claims and Payments) Amendment (No. 2) Regulations 2010
Baroness Thomas of Winchester Excerpts(14 years, 5 months ago)
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Lord Lucas
My Lords, I start by thanking my noble friend Lord Freud for turning up to respond to this Motion. The instrument that I am praying against is not of his genesis and if I get hot under the collar I hope he will accept that I am not aiming at him in any way.
The instrument first appeared before your Lordships’ Merits of Statutory Instruments Committee with a very inadequate Explanatory Memorandum. When the committee challenged them we were given more data that not only amplified what had been there before but indeed said different things. The first thing I want to say is that I very much hope that my noble friend will see the importance of making sure that Explanatory Memoranda accurately and fully reflect the intentions and details of the instruments concerned.
Secondly, although this is not in my Motion, I wanted to take the opportunity to question my noble friend on whether he really thinks that the proposals in this instrument are an appropriate use of the department’s time. It seems odd to be conducting research into what is effectively how to shift money from one government pocket into another. Here we are concerned with people on benefits. Even with the generosity of the past 13 years, benefits are still pretty marginal. If we consider the list of deductions that are generally allowed, such as mortgage payments, rent arrears, fuel and water charges, child support arrears, and so on, they are pretty important and essential to life. Yes, we allow fines to be deducted too, but that is when a court pronounces that there is a serious punishment involved. I do not think that debts to the Inland Revenue rank alongside that. Given that social security payments are basically set so that a person can meet life’s essentials, how is someone supposed to find 15 per cent of their income spare to repay the Inland Revenue? They can end up only in a worse position by having to rely on the state to a greater extent. Hence my feeling that this is just shifting money from one pocket to another.
There are other problems with this. We are not looking at large debts, but what will be the cost of recovery of these debts? Are we not looking at a system that actually costs more in its administrative functions than the money that it will recover? Is that an appropriate use of time when it comes to poor people? What is a tax debt anyway? If one is moving in and out of employment, a tax debt varies with the month. You can start off appearing to owe the Inland Revenue a good deal of money because you have not paid. You are then unemployed for six months and your allowances accumulate and you end the tax year with the Inland Revenue owing you money. It is not at all clear whether we are talking about debts that are in some way established or whether they just appear to be debts at a particular moment but may well not be debts six months later. It is an odd thing to be spending time on. This is persecuting poor people when the department ought to be trying to extract money in ways that are more efficient and have less of an impact on the very poorest.
My reason for bringing forward this Motion is the statistical inadequacy of what is proposed even with the additional explanation that I have been provided with. I know, or at least I believe I know, that the Department for Work and Pensions has a number of good statisticians—I am assured by no less than Andrew Dilnot that this is the case—but they do not appear to have been involved in the design of this research. The first thing we get is that about 5,000 tax credit customers and 5,000 self-assessment customers will be approached to volunteer to take part in the trial. Those 10,000 will then be divided into those who agree and those who do not agree. Those two groups are fundamentally different. The group which agrees will have one set of motivations and the group which does not agree will have another set. You immediately get into deep statistical water in trying to draw any conclusions when comparing two groups with different motivations. There is an attempt in the design of this experiment to compensate for that by having a third group—a control group. Presumably one could try to work out the behaviour of the first group—those who volunteer for the trial—by subtracting the behaviour of the second group from the control group and supposedly having a control for the first group.
Given the wide diversity of circumstances, we are looking at a sample that to my mind is far too small to allow that kind of second-hand approach to generating reliable results. It is a daft way of going about it when we have a perfectly good and statistically valid way of doing it, which is to double the number who agree to take part in the trial and then put only a randomised half of them through it. You would then have a matched group which will give some pretty statistically valid results. Even then the experimental design will tell you how well it works only for those who are motivated to take part in the trial. It tells you nothing about the behaviour and circumstances of those who are not motivated to take part in the trial. We are not dealing with mere mechanics; we are dealing with the effects of different methods of reclaiming money on people’s behaviour, the trouble they get into, compliance, and so forth. We are dealing with human characteristics and you cannot read those across from one group to another when you have already separated them on the basis of a fundamental characteristic such as motivation. If you wanted to find out something about the second group—those who refuse, who I suspect will be the large majority—you have to conduct a pilot that is not sample-based but area-based. The previous Government did that on several occasions. I can remember the pilots coming through the Merits Committee. A particular office would switch to a new system and would compare its results with a neighbouring, similarly placed office’s results. If you have enough other data on your claimants, you can make that reasonably statistically reliable. You could even run a randomised control through an office. But what is proposed here would not yield any useful information on the behaviour of the second group—those who refused to take part in the trial—were they to be moved to be compelled to under the new proposed system.
There is no defence in the documents that I have seen of sample size, no discussion of anticipated errors, no discussion of what are the real targets, what is expected to be achieved and what are the expected problems. There is no demonstration of the validity of the methods being set out. We have here a simple case of garbage in, garbage out. A trial on those lines will not yield any useful results. If we proceed on the basis of the results that it yields, we will have no clue whether the full, scaled-up system will work. I am comforted that the Social Security Advisory Committee, at paragraph 4.16 of its report, shares my view.
I welcome trials—they are an excellent way to make progress in the area of benefits and social security, to find out what works before one commits oneself to a whole system—but I ask the Minister to ensure that the people who really understand what are the same sort of statistical operation as drug trials have control over what goes on, make sure that what is designed is fit for purpose and ensure that the data that the trials produce can be relied on for policy formation. I beg to move.
Baroness Thomas of Winchester
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, very much for the comprehensive way in which he introduced his Motion and welcome him to this most exclusive of gatherings in London; the tiny number of us in this House who speak on DWP orders and the even tinier number who table regret Motions to them.
Before going any further, we have discovered from the response given by my right honourable friend Steve Webb to a letter from the chairman of the Merits Committee last Session that the new Government may decide not to go ahead with this pilot, but I suppose that we must carry on as though they will go ahead at this stage, unless the Minister wants to interrupt at this point to say that they will not. There is no interruption, so I shall carry on.
First, I am glad that the Government have listened to the Social Security Advisory Committee's recommendation, which urged them to bring the list of benefits from which HMRC debt recovery repayments can be made into line with the current list of benefits from which priority debts can be deducted. In other words, any deductions would be from means-tested and not contribution-based benefits. I take the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, about that being money from the poorest people in the country, whichever benefit it is from.
I am also glad that the SSAC highlighted the vital point that claimants understand the voluntary nature of the trial and the impact on their income of signing up for the trial. A lot of people will not know what “voluntary” means—although they may pretend that they do. The Government have responded positively to that point, saying that they will share copies of the letters sent to claimants with the committee, and that they will ensure that the letters, and contact centre staff, will direct the claimant, or customer, to the availability of independent advice.
The SSAC understandably believes that there is scope for confusion among claimants who receive letters from HMRC. Just seeing that letterhead is likely to lead to many claimants into thinking they are being hounded for recovery of their tax credit overpayments, whatever the letter actually states. If claimants then telephone HMRC, is the Minister satisfied that they will be told in every case that they do not have to repay their debts by having them deducted from their benefits? Will they be told in all cases that they might want to take independent advice, which might lead to some of their debt being overturned or even written off?
Before leaving the subject of letters from HMRC, perhaps the Minister can tell us why it does not provide an explanation of a tax credit overpayment to claimants in all cases; that seems not to be provided as a matter of routine. I cannot think why not. I know that the Minister does not speak for HMRC, but as this SI is a joint project between the two departments, I make no apology for asking him that on this occasion.
We must remember that the Government did not agree with the SSAC that repayment should be at a lower level than they are proposing in this trial, which is three times the normal amount per week. As the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, pointed out, benefits are not generous, and there are rumours that they will not be uprated as usual—we shall hear more in tomorrow's Budget. If claimants in debt have no other source of income except their weekly benefits, many of them will suffer severe hardship if they are being encouraged to repay their tax credit overpayment from those pretty meagre benefits. I may have got the wrong end of the stick here, but I find it horrifying that the SSAC understands that HMRC staff may suggest that debtors apply for a commercial loan to pay off debts—presumably they would never suggest a commercial loan to pay off a tax credit overpayment.
Turning to the design of the pilot, and first, to the aim of the pilot, this appears to be twofold: to find out if there is a demand from claimants for this method of repayment—that sounds almost like an oxymoron—and to see if the scheme is cost-effective. There is more information in the answers to questions from the ever-vigilant Merits Committee about how the scheme will operate. As the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, said, there are to be three groups for evaluation purposes. The first group will be those who volunteer to take part in the trial. The explanation goes:
“The evaluation will look at how much was recovered, the spread of weekly deduction rates, how long a person is in receipt of a relevant benefit and what could have been recovered had they been taking part in the trial for the whole two years taking account of expected levels of movement on and off benefit”.
That sounds fiendishly complicated with so many permutations that you wonder whether any comparisons will really make sense. The next two groups are about those who declined to take part in the trial who will form the control group. First, they have to agree to respond to a letter asking them to take part. I wonder how many will be keen to do that. Not very many, I imagine. Therefore, a key question is: how small does the sample size have to be to produce robust data? I note that the Government say:
“We accept that the smaller the sample, the less able we will be to draw definitive conclusions."
I also note what the Government say about those who go off benefit during the pilot period; namely, that there is no minimum number of weeks for which deductions have to be made in order to regard the participant and repayments made as significant for evaluation purposes. I would have thought that was a rather significant fact.
Perhaps the most encouraging sentence in the whole explanation is:
“In addition the performance of new joined up operational processes between HMRC and DWP will be assessed”.
Is the Minister really confident that this trial will produce a reliable result, in view of all the problems that the SSAC and others have pointed out?
Lord Goodlad
My Lords, I have very little to add to what has been said by my noble friend Lord Lucas. The Merits Committee reported to the House on this matter in April and again following a meeting last week. He has deployed all the considerations that we had in mind with his usual thoroughness. The noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, added to that. We will hear what the noble Lord on the Opposition Front Bench has to say. Whether to proceed with the trial is clearly a matter that will have to be considered in the light of, among other things, what is said tonight. A very large number of people, including the poorest people in our society, are involved in all this, and we look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say, but it is an extremely important matter.