Crime and Policing Bill

Baroness Sater Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 20th January 2026 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bailey of Paddington (Con)]

My Lords, I support these amendments. As is my way, I must sound a note of caution for one group of people. I know that many noble Lords have a problem with our very low age of criminal responsibility, but it affords a level of protection to young children being groomed for gangs. We need to bear that in mind.

I have great sympathy for these amendments. The noble Lord, Lord Spellar, spoke about the Lammy review. I was on the Lammy review. I ran a job club for over 12 years, and many of the young men I dealt with were unable to seek employment because of what we used to call a blip when they were younger that was still appearing on their DBS. That small blip often drove them to much more serious crime, because they were older and needed to raise more money.

We should do a review, because it is a complicated area, but there are two things to focus on. First, returning to my theme, the single biggest driver of crime is the idea that you have got away with it. If we are going to remove some of the consequences, we need to think clearly and carefully about how that will be perceived by people who are involved in criminal activity—particularly if they are young and do not have all the experiences to risk-assess their own behaviour. We must bear that in mind, because, inadvertently we might be encouraging them to approach criminal behaviour. The myth on the street will be that when you are 18, it is wiped out anyway. We might argue about the nuance of what we are prepared to wipe out or not, but that will not be the conversation on a dark night in the park when the boys are planning their next manoeuvre. It is important that we bear that in mind.

Secondly, there are people in gangs whose sole job is to recruit young people. One of the big things they say to those young people is, “You are too young to go to court”. We have to be careful about making that true, or at least appear to be true. Removing these spent convictions would be such a powerful thing to help people move on, and I support it, but let us think very carefully about how we talk about it, where we draw the lines, how we explain it and how it is enacted in reality rather than just in concept as we sit in this Chamber.

[Baroness Sater (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak briefly to all these amendments, particularly Amendments 476, 477 and 478. These amendments highlight how the system of criminal record disclosure, particularly as it relates to children, is complex and very confusing. I am an advocate for criminal record reform, having been a youth magistrate for over 20 years and having been on the Youth Justice Board. Those roles have consistently demonstrated to me how decisions made in childhood, often in relation to relatively minor offences, can have consequences that extend well into adult life, as we have heard this evening.

As noble Lords will know, I recently tabled an amendment to the Sentencing Bill to address the anomaly in youth sentencing whereby the first court appearance, rather than the date of the offence, determines whether a young person is treated as an adult. I am therefore very conscious of the unfair impact these technicalities beyond a child’s control can have on their future.

Although we have had success in reducing the number of children in custody because we wanted to keep young people out of prison, we have at the same time increased the threshold of seriousness of offending in these disposals of conditional cautions over a number of years.

I know that the Justice Secretary has recently acknowledged publicly that aspects of the criminal records and disclosure system are in need of reform. Rehabilitation is about giving people a chance to change, and, where appropriate, we should work to ensure that childhood mistakes do not turn into lifelong punishments, giving them the opportunity to get on with their lives.

I am also attracted to the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Marks, to which my noble and learned friend Lord Garnier referred. It is very important that the Minister view these amendments on childhood as an opportunity to reflect on a broader review of criminal records and the DBS disclosure system, which might now be appropriate.

These amendments highlight just how complex the system has become. Ensuring that the system is fairer, while keeping in mind the importance of rehabilitation and protection to the public, would, in my view, be a worthwhile objective.

[Lord Hampton (CB)]

My Lords, I rise to speak briefly to Amendments 476, 477 and 478 tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, to which I have added my name. I am also sympathetic to the other amendments in this group and declare, as ever, that I am a schoolteacher in Hackney. I would also like to acknowledge the help of Transform Justice.

I rather innocently assumed that one of the cornerstones of the justice system in this country is rehabilitation, but this does not seem to be the case with our young people. As we have heard, every year in England and Wales there are 13,000 convictions of children aged 10 to 17, who are disproportionately from poor backgrounds, minoritised communities, in care or excluded from school. Those convicted acquire criminal records which only add to their disadvantage.

Some of these criminal records remain through life. A child charged for affray for a playground fight would have to disclose that for ever on a standard and enhanced DBS check. Also, currently, as we have heard, a criminal record is acquired on conviction rather than according to the date of the offence itself. This means that many people commit offences as children but acquire an adult criminal record because, through no fault of their own, the hearing at which they are convicted happens after their 18th birthday. This situation has got worse because of the recent delays in the court system. This is patently absurd.

As the noble Lord, Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames, has said, brains do not mature until people are well into their twenties. Also, research has shown that teenagers take more risks when they have an audience. As I see in the playground every week, children are immature and often reckless, not seeing the consequences of their actions.

Our criminal records should allow for rehabilitation in order to allow young people to move on from childhood mistakes. These amendments would mean that young people should be able to be free of their childhood offences at a specific interval after they have finished their sentence, so they do not have to explain old and no longer relevant childhood offences to potential employers—even if they manage to get as far as an interview. We are not talking about the most serious crimes here.

For everyone else, these amendments would mean that childhood offences should automatically be taken off the records five and a half years after conviction. We also propose that a conditional caution, when accepted by a child, should not appear on the records. We propose that those whose conviction is delayed until after their 18th birthday should not acquire an adult criminal record.

With the number of NEETs approaching 1 million, we should be doing everything we can to remove barriers to employment and let rehabilitation of the young be truly part of the justice system.

Sentencing Bill

Baroness Sater Excerpts

Report stage
Tuesday 6th January 2026 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Sater]

63: After Clause 19, insert the following new Clause—
“Sentencing of offenders for crimes committed as childrenWhere a court is sentencing an offender for a crime committed before the age of 18 but at the time of the first court appearance the offender is older than 17 but younger than 21, the offender must be sentenced according to the sentencing guidelines that apply in a youth court.”

[Baroness Sater (Con)]

My Lords, Amendment 63 stands in my name and those of the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, and my noble and learned friend Lord Garnier. I am very grateful to both distinguished colleagues, who have years of experience in criminal justice, for supporting this amendment.

The amendment seeks to address an anomaly in the criminal justice system. As the law currently stands, the justice system treats a defendant according to their age on the date of their first appearance in court, rather than their age at the time of the offence. The result is that a child who commits an offence at, for example, 15, 16 or 17 years of age may be sentenced as an adult if proceedings are delayed until after their 18th birthday. Young people can lose access to the youth-specific disposals, such as referral orders, and to the comprehensive support of the youth offending teams, even though their offending behaviour occurred while they were children.

The youth justice system exists for a reason. Through my experience as a former youth magistrate for over 20 years and as a member of the Youth Justice Board for England and Wales, I saw first-hand how the approach and disposals given in the youth court can turn lives around and make it more likely that these young people will go on to lead crime-free lives. The range of sentences available in the youth court provides a far greater emphasis on the child’s welfare, education and the prevention of reoffending. The court has specifically trained magistrates and judges, who are required to give priority to rehabilitation.

The consequences of not being part of the youth justice process—not to mention mistakes in the treatment of criminal record disclosures—can affect a young person well into their adulthood. This anomaly can also give rise to what can be described only as a postcode lottery in sentencing outcomes. For example, two young people may commit the exact same offence at the exact same age in similar circumstances. One happens to live in an area where their case reaches court before their 18th birthday. The other lives in an area where the backlogs are greater and their first appearance in court is delayed. The first is sentenced under the youth justice guidelines, with access to youth-specific disposals and rehabilitation support. The second, despite being no more culpable, is sentenced as an adult. That difference arises not from the seriousness of the offence nor from the maturity of the offender but simply from geography and the resulting administrative delay. That is fundamentally inconsistent with the principle that like cases should be treated alike.

My amendment seeks to correct that situation by providing that where an offence was committed before the age of 18 and the offender is under the age of 21 at the time of their first court appearance, their case must be heard and sentenced in the youth court where appropriate. I consider this not to be a radical proposal but a widely accepted principle that culpability and sentencing should be assessed by reference to the age and maturity at which the offending behaviour occurred, not by administrative delays which are often entirely outside the control of the defendant and no fault of their own.

This anomaly was recognised in the other place in 2021. When introducing a 10-minute rule Bill, the former Member for Aylesbury, Robert Butler, spoke powerfully about this unfairness. The Bill had cross-party support, as well as support from the then Children’s Commissioner, the Magistrates’ Association—of which I declare that I am a life member—and the Association of Youth Offending Team Managers.

Importantly, this amendment would not prevent courts taking the seriousness of an offence into account or require inappropriate placement in youth custodial sentences for older defendants. It would preserve judicial discretion while ensuring that sentencing decisions are taken through the correct lens—one that reflects that the offending behaviour occurred during childhood. The Sentencing Council already recognises that age at the time of offence remains relevant after the defendant turns 18. This amendment would give clear statutory effect to that principle, ensuring consistency in how it is applied.

I would be grateful if the Minister could consider this amendment, as it is about recognising that childhood offending should be addressed as such. Ultimately, this amendment is not just a matter of procedure but a question of fairness, proportionality and effective justice.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Sater (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for his very positive and encouraging words. Although, as he says, it is a substantial challenge, I think it is a challenge worth taking. But this is a probing amendment and I beg leave to withdraw it.

Amendment 63 withdrawn.

Criminal Justice System: Capacity

Baroness Sater Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sater (Con)]

My Lords, last month, 37 prisoners were mistakenly released from prison under the early release scheme. One was charged with sexually assaulting a woman on the same day that he was released. Can the Minister please explain what evaluation is given and criteria used when deciding whether a prisoner is eligible to be released under the early release scheme?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her question. All prisoners who were released in error under the first tranche of releases are now back behind bars. I will write to her on her question but, broadly speaking, the criteria includes whether offences were sexual and violent or related to domestic abuse. I will write to her with the specific list; it is in my notes, but I am not sure that I can find it in proper time today.