House of Lords Reform Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Shutt of Greetland

Friday 21st October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I completely concur with the noble Lord, Lord Steel of Aikwood, and I look to the government Benches and Government Chief Whip to inform us of what happens next.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, there are five minutes left. If every amendment is called, it can be dealt with. That would take a bit of time, but that would be it. If that does not happen, I will have to move that the House do resume.

Localism Bill

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Shutt of Greetland

Tuesday 19th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, it is now 23:05. Everyone in this Chamber, including the staff of the House, will be here again at 10 o’clock in the morning. The agreement made with the usual channels was, as I understand it, that we would finish as close as possible to 10 pm. It is now 11.05 pm. My colleague, who has been on the Front Bench all day, wishes to depart. We have plenty of amendments to deal with tomorrow and I suggest that we deal with this manuscript amendment then.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I trust that the amendment can be dealt with tonight. I do not believe it will take very long. I understand that people are tired; I am tired too. Let us get on and get some business done.

Northern Ireland: Bill of Rights

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Shutt of Greetland

Tuesday 15th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

I make it quite clear; I am the Whip and there are two Ministers in the House of Commons. Noble Lords will remember that we had the general election, following which the number of Members of Parliament in each party was rather different. Under the coalition agreement, the number of Liberal Democrat Members who became Ministers was rather smaller than the number of Conservative Members who became Ministers. My noble friend’s right honourable friend and mine, Nick Clegg, the Deputy Prime Minister, paid a three-day visit to Northern Ireland in October, and I also had a three-day visit. Even though I am not a Minister, I endeavour to influence events and I hope to have a degree of success in that. Alongside my noble friend as the Liberal Democrat Back-Bench co-chair for the policy committee on Northern Ireland, Mr Stephen Lloyd, MP for Eastbourne, has recently been appointed to serve as the House of Commons co-chair.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I remind the Minister, with respect, that he speaks on behalf of the Government as a whole. The Government have pledged to bring in a British Bill of Rights. I wonder what that means for Northern Ireland and whether the Government are going to pursue a Northern Ireland Bill of Rights and a separate Bill of Rights for the United Kingdom. I should be grateful for the views of the noble Lord the Minister.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I shall endeavour to speak for the Government. I was just giving the facts as to who is the Minister and who is the Whip. I hold the latter position, and I think noble Lords will find that that situation existed when we had a different Government. The noble Baroness may recall that the Belfast agreement came into being on 10 April 1998. It was agreed that there would be an Assembly with full legislative and executive authority for the six Northern Ireland government departments. Furthermore, it was agreed that the European Convention on Human Rights would be embraced in any Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland that supplemented it. Of course, it is 13 years since the Belfast agreement and things do not stay still. We got a Human Rights Act in December 1998. The devolved Assembly has these powers and from time to time legislative consent motions are required. On 16 February—

Control of Donations and Regulation of Loans etc. (Extension of the Prescribed Period) (Northern Ireland) Order 2011

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Shutt of Greetland

Monday 7th February 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, the order before the Committee today will extend the period in which donations and loans to political parties and others in Northern Ireland must be held confidentially by the Electoral Commission. Noble Lords will be aware that political parties across the United Kingdom must report donations and loans received above certain thresholds to the Electoral Commission.

In Great Britain, the Electoral Commission is under a duty to publish details of these donations. However, due to ongoing concerns about intimidation in Northern Ireland, the Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2006 made provision for details of any donations reported by Northern Ireland political parties to be held confidentially by the commission.

The 2006 Act provided that confidentiality should apply for only a temporary period—referred to in the Act as “the prescribed period”—and would expire on 31 October 2010, unless an order was made by the Secretary of State to extend that. Noble Lords may recall that this House approved a short extension of the prescribed period shortly after the election so that the provisions would expire on 1 March 2011. This was to allow for full consultation to take place on whether the time was right to move to full transparency.

A full 12-week consultation commenced shortly after this extension was approved and concluded on 25 October 2010. A total of 26 responses were received, mainly from members of the public, political parties and the media. Overall, the consultation demonstrated strong support from members of the public and journalists for full and immediate transparency. This was also supported by some political parties, including Sinn Fein, the Alliance Party and the Green Party. The Ulster Unionist Party and Democratic Unionist Party supported the extension of the current arrangements due to ongoing security concerns. The SDLP agreed that donor identities should be kept confidential, but believed that work should be undertaken to bring more transparency to the existing process.

The Electoral Commission also believed that identities should continue to be kept confidential if the Government concluded that the time was not yet right to move to full transparency, but agreed that there was room for greater transparency in the existing arrangements.

The consultation demonstrated that there is strong public support for full and immediate transparency, but also that concerns remain about the possible intimidation of donors. Noble Lords will be aware that, by its very nature, it is difficult properly to quantify levels of intimidation. Nevertheless, there has been a deterioration in recent years in the overall security situation in Northern Ireland. In particular, recent reports of the Independent Monitoring Commission have indicated an increase in paramilitary beatings and shootings.

It is very likely that this rise in violent activity has been accompanied by an increased risk of intimidation and that there would be a threat to the safety of those making donations to Northern Ireland parties if their identities were made known. The Government have therefore reluctantly concluded that the time is not yet right to move to full transparency and that it is necessary to bring forward the order to extend the prescribed period before us this evening.

However, I wish to reassure noble Lords that we have listened carefully to the expressions of support by the general public for more transparency in Northern Ireland. Since the consultation ended, officials have examined the possibility of bringing more transparency to the current process within the existing legislative framework. The Government are particularly concerned that the 2006 Act does not just protect donor identities, but prohibits the release by the commission of any details at all relating to a donation.

We had hoped that the order-making powers in the 2006 Act might allow for secondary legislation to be made to relax the current strict requirements, so that some details of donations and loans might be released—for example, details of the recipient, the amount received and when the donation was made. However, following closer examination, questions have arisen about the extent to which the 2006 Act would permit that. Nevertheless, officials will continue to explore the possibility of further secondary legislation being made to provide for increased transparency. If that is not possible, we will seek to make such provision through primary legislation when a suitable legislative vehicle can be found.

Noble Lords may also be aware that the consultation paper sought views on whether donations and loans made during the prescribed period should be kept confidential when the prescribed period ends. Currently, the 2006 Act provides that details of such donations and loans will be released when the prescribed period expires. Again, the majority of respondents advocated full and immediate transparency, including the release of details of past donations and loans when the prescribed period ends. However, the UUP, DUP, SDLP and Electoral Commission strongly opposed the release of that information. They believe that many donors and recipients did not properly appreciate that the 2006 Act provided for the eventual release of the information and donated in the belief that their identities would not be released, even after the prescribed period had ended. In light of those concerns, the Government will seek a suitable legislative vehicle to make provision to ensure that the information is not released when the prescribed period expires.

In summary, it is with great reluctance that the Government bring forward this order to extend the existing arrangements. We remain committed to achieving complete consistency between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK when it comes to transparency in party funding. However, we cannot ignore the security risks that might arise if donor identities are made known at this time and the implications that it would have on the funding of political parties in Northern Ireland and the political process there more generally. Nevertheless, I hope that noble Lords are reassured that work will continue on doing everything possible to bring greater transparency to the existing arrangements.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I am grateful for the clear explanation from the Minister in what is rather a complex area. We note the strong support for lifting the exemption in place in Northern Ireland; I think that 77 per cent of respondents suggested that they were in favour of that. However, despite the enormous progress in Northern Ireland over recent years, we appreciate that the political situation there continues to be sensitive and that caution is required.

It is interesting that 12 per cent of respondents—the same number who supported the Government’s position of no change—supported option 3. As noble Lords know, that option is the current exemption with some modifications—for example, publishing the amounts received, the recipient, and whether the donor was an individual or a company. In principle we support greater transparency in the Northern Ireland political and electoral system but, given the serious and difficult security situation, we understand that a responsible Government need to exercise caution. We consider that option 3, which was canvassed in the Northern Ireland order consultation paper, struck a good balance between protecting the security of the people participating in the political process by providing donations and loans, and the expectation of the public to have transparency in the electoral system.

This is an important order so, as the Committee would expect, I have several questions to put to the Minister. He gave various reasons for continuing the current exemption unamended, but I wondered why the Government happened on two years. What is the rationale for that? He rightly mentioned the intimidation that is taking place. What are the Government planning to do to reduce the risk of intimidation that currently prevents the details being released? Will the Government use the two years’ extension to develop and implement a more transparent system for political donations and loans of the kind considered under option 3?

Paragraph 12 of the Government’s response to the consultation document said that the department would examine the possibilities of making option 3 transparency changes through secondary legislation. It would be helpful to have further clarification on that point. What options and types of transparency changes is the department looking at? What is the originating primary legislation power that would enable such secondary legislation to be made? What is the timeframe for this work? Finally, will the public be consulted on the possible options?

I hope that noble Lords will forgive this raft of questions, but they are very important. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I thank the three noble Lords for their contributions and will endeavour to respond accordingly. In terms of the Government’s position, the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, made the helpful point that she understands where we are at present. She spoke very much about what she referred to as option 3 of what was put forward in the consultation. She asked why we had said two years. The legislation envisaged extensions of the prescribed period for up to two years, so that is the figure that one can go to and no further without another order. She asked what the Government were doing to reduce intimidation. The Government remain committed to doing everything possible to reduce violent activity in Northern Ireland. We continue to work with the Executive and security agencies to reduce overall paramilitary activity, which should lead to a corresponding decrease in intimidation.

The third point that the noble Baroness raised was about the use of the two years. Clearly, work has to be done—this reverts to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Bew—on either a new order or primary legislation before too long, because of the issues that noble Lords agreed on, I think, about not releasing past information on the basis that people made donations in the belief that the information about them as donors was not to be released. That would have to be dealt with. Similarly, there could be a system whereby it was not exposed if—for example—the noble Lord, Lord Bew, gave £10,000 to a party today, but the facts that there were £10,000, a recipient and a date could be given. As we understand it, that cannot be done under present legislation.

The noble Baroness, Lady Royall, referred to the originating power, which is in the Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions Act) 2006. I have not got a note about whether there will be a fresh period of consultation. That would be in the spirit of what happens in these matters but there is a sense in which what is planned is clear without further consultation, in that it would be about numbers, dates and the recipient party but not the name of the donor. Perhaps this could be done without a further consultation period, but I do not want to close the door on consultation. That copes with the points.

My noble friend Lord Smith of Clifton found it depressing, which I understand, and I wish I was not moving this order. I wish it were rather different, but this is the way it is. This is advice which is given about the security situation in Northern Ireland and what it is right to do. Like him, I would sooner be looking forward.

Over the weekend, I dug out what is on the public record as regards what the parties publish because the parties still have to produce their accounts to be registered with the Electoral Commission. I give this information, which is in the public domain, with one or two health warnings. This relates to the calendar year. All the parties that I shall mention have year ends in December 2009 and, therefore, that does not include what might have been a different year in 2010, when there was a general election.

Five of the parties—the DUP, Sinn Fein, the UUP, the SDLP and the Alliance Party—have between them 186 accounting units, no doubt constituency associations and so forth. Having looked at what is on record with the Electoral Commission, in the accounting units, there do not appear to be hefty figures labelled as donations. Looking at what is shown by the Northern Ireland-wide parties one sees that the DUP’s income was £348,000 with donations of £126,000; Sinn Fein’s income was £1.177 million and its donations £462,000; the UUP’s income was £392,000 and its donations £21,000; the SDLP’s income was £398,000 and its donations £83,000; the Alliance Party’s income was £151,000 and its donations £16,000; the PUP’s income was £107,000 and its donations £150; the Green’s income was £47,000 and its donations £7,000; the income of the Conservatives in Northern Ireland was £215,000 and its donations £204,000; the Labour Party’s income was £1,450 and it had no donations.

Those figures are available for anyone to look at on the website of the Electoral Commission. However, I cannot vouch that each party has put a donation in its own accounts as a donation which has been seen as recordable on the other side of the book with the Electoral Commission. Many of us might see a heavy subscription as a donation, but it might be called a subscription. There are certain health warnings on that, but it gives an idea of the fact that the Northern Ireland-wide income of the parties in that year was just over £2.8 million and the amount that is listed as donations is just over £900,000. Those are the figures and they give one a feel for the sort of numbers we are talking about.

I think I have covered the points made by noble Lords and I hope that the order will be accepted.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

Before the Minister sits down, I want to press him on one question on the option 3 transparency changes that might or might not be brought forward in secondary legislation. What sort of timeframe are we talking about for such secondary legislation?

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

I cannot be absolute about this. All I can say is that because the extension ends on 1 March, clearly, moves have to be made now to move that further forward. As I understand it, people are working on this within the Northern Ireland Office because there is a general view that at least there will be an element of greater transparency. I certainly hope that we do not have to wait long to see if this can be done without primary legislation. It might be rather more difficult if we have to look at primary legislation.

Northern Ireland Assembly (Elections) (Amendment) Order 2010

Debate between Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Shutt of Greetland

Wednesday 24th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, the two orders before us today are largely technical in nature and update the law governing elections to the Northern Ireland Assembly and to district councils in Northern Ireland in advance of elections in 2011. I will speak to the Assembly order first.

Noble Lords may be aware that the law governing elections to the Northern Ireland Assembly was substantially amended as recently as 2009. Since then, there have been some minor procedural updates that have been applied to European and parliamentary elections that should also be applied to Assembly elections for consistency. For example, Article 3 of the Assembly order makes provision to allow a candidate standing in the name of two or more parties to have one of those parties’ emblems on the ballot paper. It also enables a person who cannot sign his or her signature to place a mark in place of any signature required at the nomination stage. Article 4 requires individuals to give reasons if they request their absent vote to be sent to a different address from that at which they are registered. Although these changes are relatively minor, they nevertheless mirror updates to the law applying at other elections in Northern Ireland made since 2009 and will provide for greater consistency.

I now turn to the draft local elections order, which is more substantial and provides a much needed update of the law governing local elections in Northern Ireland.

The Electoral Administration Act 2006 made considerable amendments to the law governing parliamentary elections across the United Kingdom. As I mentioned earlier, these were applied to Northern Ireland Assembly elections and European elections in 2009, but have not yet been applied to district council elections in Northern Ireland. These amendments are set out in Schedule 1 to the order and include allowing returning officers to correct procedural errors and to supply documents in other languages and formats. Schedule 1 also makes provision for the control of donations to candidates at local elections in Northern Ireland, which brings them into line with the donation controls that apply at all other elections in Northern Ireland and across the UK.

Schedule 2 to the order makes changes to absent voting procedures, which again already apply at other elections in Northern Ireland. These include adding registered social workers to the list of those who may attest absent vote applications on the grounds of illness and disability, which will make it easier for people with disabilities living in the community to apply for an absent vote. Schedule 3 to the order aligns the law at local elections relating to access and inspection of documents with procedures at all other elections in Northern Ireland. The order also amends the local election rules contained in Schedule 5 to the Electoral Law Act (Northern Ireland) 1962. This includes updating the list of acceptable forms of photographic identity that can be presented in order to vote in Northern Ireland, which is, of course, crucial to ensure consistency of approach for all polls in 2011.

The order is lengthy and time does not really permit a detailed examination of each provision, but I hope noble Lords are satisfied that these small changes are nevertheless important to provide much needed modernisation of local election procedures in Northern Ireland and greater consistency with other elections across the UK.

Finally, I turn to Article 3 of the Local Elections (Northern Ireland) Order, which sets the date of the next district council elections in Northern Ireland for 5 May 2011. Noble Lords will be aware that, in 2008, the previous Government agreed to a request from the Northern Ireland Executive to postpone the local elections that were scheduled to take place in May the following year, 2009. Legislation was subsequently approved to postpone the election until 2011 on a date to be specified by further legislation closer to the time. The postponement was to allow time for new local government boundaries to be redrawn as part of the overall review of public administration that was taking place in Northern Ireland, which was to provide, among other things, for the number of district councils in Northern Ireland to be reduced from 26 to 11.

I have to report that this planned reduction did not proceed. Although the local government boundaries commissioner reported to the Executive with proposed new boundaries on time in 2009, an order has still not been brought before the Assembly to give effect to them. In June this year, my honourable friend the Minister of State made absolutely clear to the Executive that there could be no prospect of further postponement of the elections beyond the two years previously agreed. He also advised that further delay in passing the order to give effect to the boundaries would seriously jeopardise planning for elections in May 2011.

An urgent decision therefore needed to be taken by the Executive on whether the proposed new councils could be delivered in time to allow for elections to them in May 2011. On 15 June, the Environment Minister in the Northern Ireland Executive confirmed that the reorganisation would not now go ahead in 2011. The Government announced shortly after this that there was now no option but to hold elections in May 2011 to the existing 26 councils. The legislation before us this evening will now provide for this.

Noble Lords will be aware that elections to the Northern Ireland Assembly are also scheduled to be held on 5 May 2011 and that there is a Bill currently before this House to provide for a referendum on the alternative vote also on this date. I appreciate that there may be some concerns about holding all three elections on the same day and I agree that this will present unique logistical challenges.

However, I can reassure noble Lords that the Government have received the advice of the Electoral Commission and the Chief Electoral Officer on this matter and both are confident that a combined poll in May 2011 can be successfully delivered if the risks are properly managed. Officials are therefore working closely with the commission and the Chief Electoral Officer in the run-up to the polls to ensure the early identification and resolution of any potential problems.

In summary, I hope that noble Lords are satisfied that the vast majority of the provisions in these orders would result in small changes that are nevertheless important to ensure greater consistency with elections elsewhere in the UK. I also hope that noble Lords will agree that the date of the next local elections should be set for 5 May 2011 and are satisfied that all necessary steps will be taken to ensure that all three polls will be conducted successfully. I beg to move.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for bringing forward these orders and for allowing your Lordships the time to debate them today. Northern Ireland has made extraordinary progress in the past few years. With the support of all parties and all communities, Northern Ireland has seen political developments which have helped to bring it out of the dark days of the violence of the Troubles. Enormous efforts have been made and for the first time in a generation the majority of people in Northern Ireland can live peaceful lives, which is a tribute to many people in the Chamber today and to all our parties on working together. However, we cannot forget that the situation is fragile. Political stability is still relatively new and we must ensure that proposals to change the way in which the electoral situation works in Northern Ireland do not damage this stability.

These orders contain relatively technical issues. We understand that they are designed to facilitate the smooth running of the elections due to be held in Northern Ireland in May 2011, but of course they deserve proper scrutiny. We are particularly keen to ensure that the Government are taking all measures that they can to prevent difficulties in the conduct of these elections. We are concerned that any changes to the rules could cause confusion. The potential for confusion in Northern Ireland on 5 May 2011 is substantial. Two elections are already scheduled for this day; that is, the local council elections and a poll for seats to the Northern Ireland Assembly. As the Minister acknowledged, the Government plan to add to these a referendum vote on adopting the alternative vote for elections to the House of Commons.

These orders, together with the schedules to the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill before your Lordships’ House and due to receive the forensic scrutiny that it deserves, facilitate the combination of the three polls on 5 May. Will the Minister assuage the worries of many Members on these Benches and, I suspect, across the House that holding so many polls on one day will lead to confusion? Is the Minister confident that all the rules will be in place in sufficient time in advance of the May polls? It is vital that the people of Northern Ireland get the maximum amount of information to ensure that they are fully prepared for what will be an unprecedented voting day next May. Will the Minister assure the House that this will happen?

We on these Benches are concerned that any undue confusion has the potential to be particularly damaging to the embryonic political settlement in Northern Ireland, and this cannot be put at risk. I acknowledge the Minister’s assurance that he is working with the Electoral Commission and that everything will be in place. But the task is enormous and I hope that the Minister and his colleagues will keep in contact with people in Northern Ireland to ensure that everything is properly in place, and that the Government will do everything that they can to assist if and when necessary.

The Government’s programme of constitutional reform would see boundaries redrawn and three fewer MPs available to serve the people of Northern Ireland. This will have consequential effects on the nature of representation in the Assembly. It is possible that this will result in there being 18 fewer MLAs. What might the effects of this be on the current balance in the Assembly? Can the Minister assure the House that the Government will give proper consideration to not disrupting the Assembly balance, and will he bring forward proposals to ensure that? If this does not happen, we fear another jolt to the stability achieved in Northern Ireland.

If the Bill for fixed-term Parliaments is passed as drafted, in 2015 we will have council elections, general elections and Assembly elections on the same day. The three elections will all be held using different, possibly very different, electoral systems. Furthermore, if the coalition Government get their way with their plans to dramatically redesign the constituency map of the United Kingdom, these elections will take place under new boundaries as well. This will mean the height of complication.

The Minister has told us that these orders are intended to smooth the running of elections in Northern Ireland. Taken together with the Government’s wider reform plans, we are deeply concerned that the result will be quite the opposite.