Safety of Rwanda (Asylum and Immigration) Bill

Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 12th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Jones. I had the privilege of serving as a Cross-Bench member of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, which was referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, in her remarks. Indeed, she referred to the 50-page report that was finally agreed by a majority in the committee—it is a majority, not a unanimous, report—on 7 February. It was published today, as others have said, and is available in the Printed Paper Office.

In my remarks, I will say something about what the report has to say about safety. Before doing that, I will agree in particular with the tone of many of the contributions that have been made so far on this group of amendments. As always, my noble friend Lord Hannay put his finger on our international obligations, not least among which is the 1951 convention on refugees. It may well be that this is not written in stone and that there should be attempts to try to change and reform this in the climate of today’s demands—I am happy to give way.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for giving way. He has just referred to international agreements. Would he agree with me, therefore, that this Bill contravenes international agreements such as the UDHR and also the ECHR? I am reminded of the fact that the provisions of this Bill extend to Northern Ireland. Hence, this provision and this Bill undermine the very basis of the Good Friday agreement.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness; I was not intending to touch on Northern Ireland, but she is right that this does touch on the Windsor agreement and on our obligations to Northern Ireland, which are separate from those of the rest of the United Kingdom. I commend that section of the report. These are not my opinions; the report does touch on that question.

The noble Baroness also asked about our other obligations. We have many obligations, not just under the refugee convention but under the ECHR, to which she has just referred. The Government on this Bill, as on the Illegal Migration Bill, decline to give a compatibility statement because they cannot say that it will be compatible—although I know Ministers take a contrary view that there is uncertainty around that. However, if there is uncertainty, we must be very careful where we tread.

On the issue of our international reputation, I was very struck by the statement made by the former Prime Minister of Pakistan, which is referred to in the JCHR report. He justified what he was intending to do and has done in sending back 430,000 Afghan refugees to Pakistan. He said it was modelled on what we were seeking to do in the British Parliament. So, even though we know that is casuistry and extreme, nevertheless we can see where this argument can lead and the way in which it be used. So, yes, as the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, said, our international reputation can easily suffer.

The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Southwark got to the heart of this when he said that legislating that Rwanda is safe does not make it so. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, touched on that point. Just saying an apple is a pear does not make it such. Saying that a dog is a cat does not make it such. It may be your opinion, but it is not true—and that is surely what we have a duty to try to do in this place.

On process, procedure and governance, during our debates on the Illegal Migration Bill and the treaty, I complained that we had not been treated properly as a Select Committee in the way you would expect Select Committees to be treated. Suella Braverman, the then Home Secretary, declined to appear before the Select Committee. We did not see James Cleverly in the context of this Bill. However, we did see the Lord Chancellor, Alex Chalk, and I pay tribute to him for the way he delivered his evidence and took the questions we put to him. As the noble and learned Lord has just said, it is the duty of the Home Secretary of the day to explain the intentions of legislation. If there is anxiety about something as important as a compatibility statement, they should explain why they feel unable to give it.

My noble friend Lord Anderson of Ipswich rightly said that we are ill-equipped to make these decisions in Parliament. I did not serve as long as the noble Lord, Lord Howard, although we have the distinction of contesting the same parliamentary seat in the heart of Liverpool on separate occasions, or as long as the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, but I agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Tugendhat, said about the way in which legislation has traditionally been dealt with in another place and here. I cannot remember Select Committees being treated by Secretaries of State in the way that I have just described. Thinking all the way back to the British Nationality Bill 1981, on which I spoke many times, there were opportunities to hear the arguments, to discuss the implications and to make appropriate amendments. I have not felt that about this legislation or that which preceded it. I think it has been pushed through in a pell-mell way, bringing to mind the thought that, if you enact legislation in a hurry, you will end up repenting at some leisure.

Let me take noble Lords to page 15 of the report, which comes down to the role of the UNHCR and safety. “As of January 2024”, therefore as recently as last month,

“UNHCR has not observed changes in the practice of asylum adjudication that would overcome the concerns set out in its 2022 analysis and in the detailed evidence presented to the Supreme Court”.

The Supreme Court, not the House of Commons or the House of Lords, relied on the UNHCR when it came to a decision about questions of fact. The report states:

“UNHCR notes the detailed, legally-binding commitments now set out in the treaty, which if enacted in law and fully implemented in practice, would address certain key deficiencies in the Rwandan asylum system identified by the Supreme Court. This would however require sustained, long term efforts, the results of which may only be assessed over time”.


Well, clearly, we have not had the time to make those assessments, and again we are being urged to rush pell-mell. I will not detain the Committee much longer. One witness, Professor Tom Hickman KC, said:

“Parliament is effectively being asked to exercise a judicial function, to assess evidence, to look at detailed facts and, effectively, to distinguish the Supreme Court’s judgment, to say that things have moved on and it is not binding on Parliament—I do not mean in a non-legal way—in making its judgment. In my view, that is an inappropriate exercise for Parliament to conduct. It is a judicial function”.


This view was echoed by Professor Sarah Singer, who is quoted in paragraph 57 as saying:

“To contradict the Supreme Court in this way is, perhaps, not showing the respect to the court that should be owed as a constitutional principle”.


I conclude with the summary on page 35, which says:

“We have considered the Government’s evidence that Rwanda is now safe, but have also heard from witnesses and bodies including the UNHCR that Rwanda remains unsafe, or at least that there is not enough evidence available at this point to be sure of its safety. Overall, we cannot be clear that the position reached on Rwanda’s safety by the country’s most senior court is no longer correct. In any event, the courts remain the most appropriate branch of the state to resolve contested issues of fact, so the question of Rwanda’s safety would best be determined not by legislation but by allowing the courts to consider the new treaty and the latest developments on the ground”.


For all those reasons, I believe that the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, has done noble Lords a great favour in bringing these amendments to us in Committee. She has already shown her willingness to think further about whether they might be applied in other ways. That surely is what Committee stage is all about. The tone that has been struck in the course of this debate behoves noble Lords to think very deeply. I commend this report to the Committee.

Northern Ireland Protocol Bill

Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 25th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness O'Loan (CB)]

My Lords, I speak as one who lives in Northern Ireland and experiences on a regular basis the impact of the bureaucracy associated with the operation of the protocol. I spoke at Second Reading of my concerns about the Bill and I want to support both amendments placed before your Lordships today, because we do not have the information that would underpin proper consideration of the necessity for the Bill. No doubt a solution has to be found to the various problems arising in the operation of the protocol but, as witnesses to the Northern Ireland protocol sub-committee of the European Affairs Committee told us—we heard evidence last Friday in the Northern Ireland Assembly—this Bill is like placing a gun on the table at the negotiations.

I hope that, even at this late stage, the Prime Minister and the usual channels will consider the matter further and withdraw the Bill—in light of your Lordships’ interventions today, of the reports of the sub-committee on the protocol, those of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee and, most of all, in light of the report of the Constitution Committee, which says:

“Legislation which puts the UK in breach of international law undermines the rule of law and trust in the UK in fulfilling future treaty commitments. The Government’s reliance on the doctrine of necessity does not justify introducing this Bill. This raises the question of whether ministers might be thought to have contravened their obligation under the Ministerial Code to comply with the law, including international law.”


This is the most serious of observations by the Constitution Committee. I will vote against the Bill when we get an opportunity to do so but, at present, I support the amendments.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, I rise to support both these amendments and to pay tribute to our colleague Baroness May Blood, who sadly passed away last week. May was a fearless campaigner in Belfast for the rights of the underdog, for integrated education—believing that children should be educated together rather than apart—and, above all, for the rights of women in work and in factories.

I support the contents of these amendments. So far, we have not received from the Government any reports or any assessment from their perspective about the report from the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. Also, we now have the report from the Constitution Committee, as was referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan.

No assessments have been carried out in respect of the economy, business and commercial developments in Northern Ireland. Only last week, as a member of your Lordships’ committee on the protocol, I returned to Northern Ireland along with the noble Baronesses, Lady O’Loan and Lady Goudie, and our chair the noble Lord, Lord Jay. We paid a visit and took evidence—in Newry, which is along the Belfast-Dublin corridor, as well as in the Northern Ireland Assembly—from the leaders of all the political parties, and from the business, commercial and manufacturing sector. The general view of those people—apart from those in the haulage sector—was “Please remove this Bill”. This comes back to the basic point that there have to be successful negotiations, a successful negotiated outcome between the EU and the UK. That is vital. Those negotiations cannot come to a positive conclusion as long as the Bill, which is like a gun on the table, exists. I urge the Government: please remove this Bill, as it is not helpful.

Like the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, I urge the Government and the new Prime Minister to come to Northern Ireland—above all, to come with Taoiseach Micheál Martin and show the joint approach that was portrayed in the Good Friday agreement. That bipartisan approach is urgently required because, unless there are negotiations to restore the political institutions, we are in a political backwater. I urge the Government please to do that.

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[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Bew, for giving way. While I was not at BIPA, my clear understanding—and I have just had it confirmed—is that the Irish Government’s position is quite clear that they view this protocol Bill as an unnecessary, unilateral move that breaks international law. Of course, they want to see a successful outcome to negotiations between the UK and the EU.

[Lord Bew (CB)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her intervention. Of course I take the point, but I was saying that nationalist Ireland basically does not like this Bill. That is not the point. The point is that it is not in any way stopping or infringing or slowing up the negotiations. The point is that the equality of esteem doctrine, which we are supposed to be following with the Northern Ireland protocol, means that the House is bound by international law to pay attention and to try and do something. On whether this Bill is precisely right, there are amendments starred in the normal way to be discussed, but we are not in the situation where we are talking about amendments.

I have great sympathy for the noble Lord, Lord Howard, who raised the issue of Article 16. However, when I look at the noble Lord, Lord Frost, who was in a critical position on this matter for quite long spells in recent times, I think that he is bound to be surprised by the sudden outbreak of support for the implementation of Article 16, because at any time when he voiced the same civilised opinion in this Chamber, noble Lords were totally against it and regarded it as outrageous—of course it never was.

There is even a case now for the implementation of Article 16, made by Professor Boyle, who was professor of international law at Edinburgh, to both the House of Commons Select Committee on this matter and our own Select Committee on this matter. He is actually open to the argument for the importance of the prior international agreement and the importance of protecting it. He is a very distinguished international lawyer. What I understand him to be saying is that, first, you must apply Article 16; that is a perfectly reasonable argument that I am open to. In addition—I look at the noble Lord, Lord Howard, in engaging on this point—the other point that I very much agree with him about is that there is no need to ask the EU to change its negotiating mandate; it has to live up to its commitment to the Good Friday agreement.

The context is one in which—Members of this House do not read the Irish media as I do, and Irish books, articles and so on—there is a fairly consistent admission on the part of the Irish Government’s negotiating team that, when Theresa May was on her knees in November 2017, the advantage was pushed very hard in that agreement, and that they took sole ownership, or sole guardianship, of the Good Friday agreement. In many ways, what is happening here is an attempt by the British Government to say, “Well, actually, that is not really the Good Friday agreement. First of all, you do not have sole ownership. Secondly, we have responsibilities as a sovereign Government not held by the Irish Government and”—as I have tried to explain—"we are trying to move back to deal with this in some way.”

This does not mean that every clause in this Bill is particularly wise, but it does mean that we should not take the attitude that in principle we should not be doing it, or that we must stop now because otherwise the EU will stop negotiating—that is clearly not true. I agree that the Irish Government do not like the Bill and that they believe that it infringes international law. I absolutely accept that point, but the point is that we have to follow our obligations under international law, which means that the long-term alienation of one community must be avoided. Unless the Government do something substantive such as this—

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[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendments 2 and 6 in my name and support those in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman. As we start our customary, more-detailed consideration of legislation in Committee, I reflect on the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, who thought that we were preventing proper detailed scrutiny in a bullying way. However, I cannot see her in her place. Maybe she popped out. I look forward to her return to take part in the detailed consideration of the Bill.

I very much agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman. I have considerable doubts about whether we will be able to legislate an agreement with the European Union. Fundamentally, we are tasked with an almost impossible job. I therefore agree that her amendment is a kind of security for this legislation: it does its best in making the Bill consistent with customary international law. We will also debate this on the next two groups. If we are to see a political agreement, what is the best way of legislating to allow that to be in place? I believe profoundly that this is not the way that it should be done. Nevertheless, if it is done this way, there should be some form of security area.

I very strongly agree with the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, that we should not pass legislation which is a clear breach of international law, as the Constitution Committee reported. Concern about government probity was highlighted earlier: if we have an amendment that relies on the Government themselves to exercise discretion on the exercise of powers, I have my doubts whether they would bring forward a clear view on that discretion. For example, under Amendment 70, the position of the former Paymaster-General in Committee in the Commons would have been that the condition would have been satisfied because talks had been exhausted. However, we now know that they have not been. That is not as a result of the Bill. Maybe the noble Lord, Lord Bew, is right. However, I suspect that if the talks were exhausted in July when we had the Bill in Committee in the Commons, and are not while we have it in Committee in the Lords, it is about the political basis. I am therefore not sure that the security arrangements would effectively be watertight.

My amendments, supported by my noble friend Lady Ludford, are straightforward. They are also part of a form of security that should be updated now, then continuously on the basis of these talks. As I mentioned earlier, the Commons was told in Committee that they had been exhausted, but new life has now been breathed into them. The Government said previously that this was owing to EU intransigence. Now Minister Steve Baker tells readers of the Times at the weekend that the Government say that talks are progressing because he stretched out a hand of reconciliation. Setting aside the contradiction, the reality is that we should be provided with more information, from now on and going forward, on the level and content of these talks.

For example, the EU proposals in October 2021 themselves said that there should be changes to the structure of ongoing talks and of the relationship between the EU and the people and institutions of Northern Ireland. However, I have not seen the Government’s response—the alternative presented by them in those talks. That would inform not only the mood of this House but our ability to pass legislation that gives regulation-making powers over the structure of that. I know what the EU has proposed; I do not know what our Government have proposed. If we are to consider, believe and call out EU intransigence, that case is harder when we know what the EU has put on the table but do not know what the UK has. How on earth can we come to the conclusion that it is being intransigent in these talks when we in this Chamber are effectively blind?

Now I think I understand, fundamentally, the dilemma of the noble Lord, Lord Dodds. He argued for Brexit, the majority of the people in Northern Ireland voted against it. He argued against the protocol, but the majority of the UK and the Conservatives inflicted that on him. This is a difficult dilemma, but ultimately it will mean that Northern Ireland, one part of the UK, will remain in an economic area of another entity, the EU single market. The only sustainable way that that can ever be for the benefit of the people of all parts of the UK is with agreement with that other entity. You cannot unilaterally legislate to enforce on another entity when you have already accepted that we are part of that entity. It is just an impossibility, so there has to be agreement, and in order for us to do our job in this House we have to know what the UK is putting forward in those talks. I should not imagine that our amendments will present the Committee with much difficulty.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, and the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, for their probing amendments. I agree with them and believe that there is a mandatory obligation on the Government to provide us with details on the negotiations and to ensure that the regulations are published—many noble Lords across this Committee agree with that—so that we know what is actually going on.

I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, that it would be much better if Ministers were investing their time in negotiations with a large degree of rigour with the European Union to produce the desired outcome in respect of the protocol with mitigations. That would achieve everybody’s objectives, including addressing the democratic deficit and the needs of those in the haulage industry and others so that there is no diminution in the good work that has already been achieved and so that better things can be obtained in terms of what we can gain by access to both the UK internal market and the EU single market, because our economy is much better when we have dual access.

In relation to dual regulatory zones, there is certain merit in them but there is also difficulty associated with them. That difficulty has already been highlighted by the dairy industry in Northern Ireland which, by and large, is all-Ireland in nature because the greater proportion of processing capacity lies in the Republic of Ireland. I think that point was referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, at Second Reading. There are problems in relation to DAERA certificates and who grants them. I notice a quizzical look on the face of the noble Lord, Lord Caine, but I say again that Ministers should be involved directly in the negotiations. Those negotiations should take on renewed vigour. We should see the regulations and should have reports on those negotiations on a regular basis by way of parliamentary Statements to both Houses.

Northern Ireland Protocol Bill

Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 11th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Howard. I am also a member of your Lordships’ committee on the Ireland/Northern Ireland protocol. As a resident of Northern Ireland, I firmly believe that the Bill is not the way forward. In fact, it acts as an impediment and a barrier to those negotiations. I am pleased that the negotiations between the UK and the EU have resumed, because there are issues with the protocol. I speak as someone who supports the protocol because, during and post the Brexit referendum, we always said that Northern Ireland needed to have special status—and the current UK Government negotiated the withdrawal agreement and the Northern Ireland protocol. So, as regards as any other stories that might be coming at us, we might be talking porkies, as my noble friend Lord Murphy said, and the Government should remember that they negotiated it.

There are issues with the protocol that have to be addressed properly in the negotiations—in relation to tariffs on steel and in relation to groupage and the issues encountered by the haulage industry—but these can be resolved only by proper negotiations between the UK and the EU, without placing guns on the table to act as impediments to the discussions. There are challenges and difficulties in the Bill: it is a breach of international law; Ministers are given undue powers to legislate later on to do what they wish; and it will not deal with the problems in Northern Ireland.

Over the summer, I talked to many people—including members of Newry Chamber and the Warrenpoint chamber—who operate along the border. I talked to people in industries, including Seatruck Ferries and HMT Shipping in Warrenpoint and Lakeland Dairies. For the dairy industry, which is all-island, the Bill will legislate inefficiencies into the dairy supply chain with the dual regulatory regime and certification process. The Bill does not work for primary producers, and it has the potential to undermine Northern Ireland’s access to the EU single market. I have talked to the Ulster Farmers Union and, although it sees issues with the protocol, it also sees benefits.

The Bill rejects the NIP joint committee process for resolving disputes. It removes the ECJ from NIP decisions, and VAT and excise duties will be set by UK Ministers, rather than at agreed EU rates. In fact, the Bill is at variance with the Good Friday agreement because the principle of consent in that agreement centres around the issue of unity—“Do you want to be part of a united Ireland or to remain within the United Kingdom?”—and we do not need any confusion around that issue. The equality and human rights commissions, which are mandated to look after Article 2 of the protocol, greatly fear that Clauses 13, 15 and 20 will dilute those human rights and equality protections. This needs to be looked into.

Environmental organisations, such as Greener UK, believe that the Bill is

“extremely broad in scope and creates significant risk to the natural environment across the single biogeographic unit of the island of Ireland”,

through the powers taken by government without parliamentary scrutiny and, above all, the insufficient protections for the natural environment within the protocol.

There are areas for negotiation: the resolution of the customs issues and controls; the need for an SPS veterinary agreement; and the solution to the EU steel tariffs in Northern Ireland. We want streamlining, with no more individual certificates for agri-food products. Through Vice-President Šefčovič, the EU has indicated that it is prepared not only to negotiate but to provide those solutions, so let us get down to those negotiations. Only through proper negotiations between the UK and the EU will we achieve success and the restoration of our political institutions of the Good Friday agreement, which should never have been blocked or brought down in the first place.

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[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

My Lords, having listened to the debate thus far, I appreciate that DUP-bashing can be a popular exercise for some noble Lords, but I can tell them that we have a good, strong back. But the fact is that not one unionist political party or elected representative in Northern Ireland supports the Northern Ireland protocol. Whenever you speak about the DUP, you are talking about unionism collectively. Noble Lords should never forget that. I also remind the House that the Northern Ireland Assembly is built on the premise not of majority rule but of cross-community consent, which the Northern Ireland protocol does not have.

The human rights provisions in the Belfast agreement provided the people of Northern Ireland with the right to

“pursue democratically national and political aspirations”.

Article 2 of the protocol obliges the UK Government to ensure that there is no diminishment of any Belfast agreement rights following Brexit. Yet the protocol challenges these rights of the people of Northern Ireland head-on, slashing the value of their vote.

I will quote from a letter I received from a lady in Northern Ireland:

“I am eternally grateful for the work of Ulster’s pioneering 19th century female human rights campaigner, Isabella Tod and those who followed her in the early 20th century, like Dora Mellone … My concern, however, is that the work of these great civil rights campaigners is being undermined, and that my civil rights are being infringed, by the Protocol. Tod, Mellone etc did not campaign for us to have the vote, only for the meaning of that vote to be substantially eroded compared with people living in Great Britain or in the Republic of Ireland. That, however, is the effect of the Protocol because in some 300 areas of law, in relation to which I previously was represented through my legislators, I have now become voiceless. This has immediate, direct and distressing equality implications because it means that I no longer enjoy equality with respect to UK citizens living in Scotland, Wales or England or indeed with citizens of the Republic of Ireland. In the same way UK citizens in Scotland, Wales and England can stand for election … or elect MPs to make their laws in the 300 areas, so too can citizens of the Republic … vote for TDs, Senators and MEPs to make laws in all these areas. The citizens of Northern Ireland are, therefore, uniquely discriminated against.”


Can anyone in this House support or accept that? When we read that letter in the context of the human rights provisions in the Belfast agreement and the obligations in the protocol on the British Government to ensure that there is no diminution of those rights because of Brexit, the case is unanswerable.

I make an economic point. The EU thinks we should be happy because we are offered reduced checks of 80%. If checks were reduced by 90%—

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for giving way. Does he accept that the DUP is currently preventing the restoration of all the political institutions in Northern Ireland at a time when the people are facing a cost of living and cost of business crisis and urgently need local governance to make decisions?

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

I accept that the DUP has made it abundantly clear that it will not go into the Executive. Have no doubt about that; let the House hear it clearly. I will refer to the speech of my right honourable friend, the leader of our party, on Saturday to his party conference.

As I was saying, if checks were reduced by 90%, it would make no difference because they are not the problem. The problem is the paperwork, which still has to be done whether a consignment is checked or not. Some might respond, “Why is that such a problem? Different countries export to each other all the time. Why should treating Northern Ireland as a third country in relation to the rest of the United Kingdom be economically devastating?” To answer that question, we have to understand that, although we talk about living in a globalised economy as if it was all one, in reality, while there are all manner of links between different state economies, the links within them are none the less qualitatively quite different.

Shipments in lorries between countries tend to be of one product in bulk; as there is only one product, you need only one set of paperwork, which is manageable. However, for shipments in lorries within integrated economies, the contents are quite different. Rather than being overwhelmingly one product, they tend to include multiple products, which means that if you try to treat them as exports, they need multiple pieces of paperwork. That costs money. It is why a number of firms state that they do not believe they can trade with Northern Ireland if the protocol goes on and is furthered by the desire for its full implementation.

Finally, because of time, since it has been raised today, I draw noble Lords’ attention to where the DUP stands. Our leader made this clear on Saturday:

“Let me be clear—either the Prime Minister delivers the provisions of the Protocol Bill by legislation or by negotiation and ensures that our place in the United Kingdom is restored... or there will be no basis to re-enter Stormont.”


That is clear. He continued:

“On this issue it is not words but actions we need to see and we will judge any outcome on the basis of actions not words.”


I say this to the Government tonight: get on with dealing, get on with action, enable us to get on with being equal citizens within the United Kingdom and let our people prosper.

Northern Ireland Protocol: First Treasury Counsel

Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick Excerpts

Thursday 9th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stewart of Dirleton (Con)]

My Lords, to rehearse the answer I gave to the previous question, the protocol itself comprehends the possibility of its amendment, depending on circumstances as they arise.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, there is deep disquiet in Northern Ireland about undermining the very institutions of the Good Friday agreement. I come from a different position from that of the DUP, but I have to say that a majority of people in the Northern Ireland Assembly want the protocol to remain, with mitigations. What exact consultations took place between the Prime Minister and the First Treasury Counsel in relation to this new legislation, which is considered a breach of international law?

[Lord Stewart of Dirleton (Con)]

My Lords, first, the Government’s intention is to protect the operation of the protocol. As the noble Baroness is aware, the Northern Ireland Executive has not been re-formed. It will not be re-formed in the face of such disquiet as currently exists. The Government intend that the protocol should be protected by the measures that they will bring forward, and they will bring forward simultaneously a statement of their legal position.

Power of Attorney

Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stewart of Dirleton (Con)]

The OPG currently has powers to make reference to the police, in terms of fraud, to instigate investigations, including using other bodies such as local authorities or the National Health Service. Again, on the reference to the consultation that is to report in the spring, we look to strengthen the ability of the OPG to intervene in such cases.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, could the Minister outline what further measures are contemplated to monitor the misuse of the power of attorney, sometimes by relatives of the person involved?

[Lord Stewart of Dirleton (Con)]

The noble Baroness poses the question of monitoring the situation. Again, the consultation procedure has been invited to take views as to the use of identification procedures in relation to people becoming attorneys, and there is a range of measures in contemplation to assist banks and other institutions to properly investigate persons taking out such schemes.

Bribery Act 2010: Post-legislative Scrutiny (Select Committee Report)

Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd February 2021 Grand Committee

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Non-Afl) [V]]

My Lords, it is always a pleasure to follow the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead. I congratulate the chair of the committee, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Saville of Newdigate, on securing this debate, and congratulate him and his committee on a comprehensive report on the post-legislative scrutiny of the Bribery Act, for which the committee has had to wait nearly two years for the Government’s response. It is important that the Government use the powers within the Bribery Act effectively to tackle economic crime and the corrosive effect that corruption has on companies, individuals and society in general. This Act encourages companies to adopt honesty in all their dealings.

The committee wisely focused on several areas around bribery, including whether the Act had led to

“a stricter prosecution of corrupt conduct, a higher conviction rate and a reduction in such offending.”

It is remarkable and excellent that not one witness had major criticisms of the legislation. However, the report expressed concern at the slow pace of bribery investigations, with a number of witnesses criticising the time it had taken for bribery charges to be brought and for cases to reach trial.

What is also interesting is that companies were concerned about the potential for the legislation to be prejudicial to businesses in the operation of their work, but the committee found that this was not the case. The noble Lord, Lord Gold, referred to that today and in the article he published on his blog some time ago.

Recommendations dealt mainly with the implementation and enforcement of the Act, urging the director of the Serious Fraud Office and the DPP to speed up investigations into bribery and improve communications with those placed under investigation for bribery offences. The Government response centred on the committee’s concern surrounding the “slow pace” of bribery investigations, and they noted that several measures had been introduced within the specialist fraud division of the Crown Prosecution Service to

“ensure that cases progress effectively”.

That included bribery cases now having two allocated prosecutors, and legal managers being provided with weekly data on pre-charge cases, such as bribery, to ensure cases are regularly reviewed and progressed. How many cases have progressed to prosecution and conviction or release since these appointments, and how many are still awaiting trial and conviction? Has all this led to zero tolerance within companies and within the judicial system of bribery offences and economic crime? I also ask the Minister where the new Financial Services Act and the National Security and Investment Bill fit into the existing Bribery Act.

In response to the recommendation from the Committee regarding training and awareness of the act, the Government said there was not enough evidence to commit to providing additional resources to the City of London Police’s Economic Crime Academy to expand its training programme. The noble Lord, Lord Hain, asked about resources. What has happened since the publication of the Government’s response? Has there been a change of heart, and do they now intend to give resources to the Economic Crime Academy for training purposes?

On supporting companies on corruption issues in the countries to which they export, the Government said that DfID’s business integrative initiative was undertaking pilot work in Kenya, Mexico and Pakistan. According to the Government, the Bill aims to

“identify appropriate ways to support UK companies operating in these markets”

and will provide new guidance and tools to staff in these companies. Has this role been taken on by the FCDO with the dissolution of DfID? Has that new guidance been provided?

Many questions have been posed to the Minister, but we are undoubtedly better served by the operation of the Bribery Act and by the committee’s report and the Government’s response to it, all of which have enormous potential. The bottom line is that companies have no real choice but to enforce a stringent anti-corruption regime to minimise their risk of conviction and uphold proper standards of integrity and ethics in their business operations.

Northern Ireland: Defamation Act 2013

Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick Excerpts

Monday 11th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stewart of Dirleton (Con)]

My Lords, I respectfully echo my noble friend’s views on the benefits flowing from the legislation to which he refers. I remind the House that, under the Sewel convention, Parliament remains sovereign. However, the United Kingdom Government will not normally pass primary legislation relating to areas in which a devolved legislature has legislative competence, except with the agreement of that devolved legislature. The Northern Ireland Executive must have the scope to set their own priorities for legislation, but I can reassure my noble friend that the work on the law of defamation in Northern Ireland put in place by the Assembly recommenced in February 2020.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Non-Afl) [V]]

My Lords, what work has been done by the Northern Ireland Executive on updating the defamation laws in view of the fact that the Northern Ireland Law Commission has indicated that there are six times as many claims for defamation in Northern Ireland as in other regions in the UK, thereby highlighting the need to update our defamation laws?

Covert Human Intelligence Sources (Criminal Conduct) Bill

Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 24th November 2020 Lords Chamber

I believe that the amendment is the best possible safeguard in this very serious legislation. It recognises the really difficult work that undercover operatives have to engage in but none the less protects the rule of law and the wider community. I beg to move.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Non-Afl) [V]]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, and support the amendments in her name and the names of the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, the noble Baroness, Lady Warsi, and myself.

I want to emphasise the point made quite rightly by the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti: the rule of law should never be placed in jeopardy. I shall concentrate on the position of immunity from civil redress and give examples from the Northern Ireland perspective, where we have had widespread experience.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick]

7: Clause 1, page 1, line 19, at end insert—
“(3A) In section 27(3) of that Act (lawful surveillance etc.), after “Part” insert “(other than conduct authorised under section 29B)”.”Member’s explanatory statement
The effect of this amendment is that criminal conduct authorisations would not be encompassed by the provisions of section 27(3) RIPA which expressly provides that “The conduct that may be authorised under this Part includes conduct outside the United Kingdom.”

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Non-Afl) [V]]

My Lords, I support both amendments in this group; obviously, I particularly support Amendment 7, which is in my name. The effect of my amendment is that

“criminal conduct authorisations would not be encompassed by the provisions of section 27(3)”

of RIPA 2000, concerning conduct outside the UK.

Again, I come to this issue with experience from Northern Ireland. Human rights organisations, including the Committee on the Administration of Justice in Northern Ireland, are concerned about the extraterritorial reach of this Bill in terms of committing offences. There is a deep concern that, in addition to criminal conduct authorisations making criminal acts by an informant “lawful for all purposes”, the extraterritorial provision of Section 27(3) of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 could also apply—namely:

“The conduct that may be authorised under this Part includes conduct outside the United Kingdom.”


I urge the Minister to outline from the Dispatch Box whether this is the case.

If it is, MI5 could, for example, authorise from its Belfast base the conducting of a serious criminal offence by a paramilitary informant in the Republic of Ireland. That offence would be unlawful under UK law but clearly this would not change an act being a criminal offence under Irish law. In a recent parliamentary answer to a Member of the Dáil, the Irish Parliament, the relevant Justice Minister said that all persons in the jurisdiction—the Republic of Ireland—are fully subject to its laws and any evidence of a breach of criminal law will be fully pursued in the normal way by the relevant authorities. My amendment therefore seeks to disapply the provisions of Section 27(3) of RIPA, which expressly provides that conduct can be authorised outside the UK.

This raises a number of questions, which I asked at Second Reading but did not receive answers from the Minister. Perhaps she can provide them this evening. Will the UK authorities inform their Irish counterparts if they authorise a crime in their jurisdiction? If not, the UK will be secretly authorising criminal activity in the Irish jurisdiction. If the UK intends to notify the Irish authorities, will the Gardai—the Irish police—enforce Irish law and arrest the informant for the crime in question? If not, in essence, would the Irish authorities also be de facto legalising crimes authorised by the UK in the Irish jurisdiction?

Also, can the Minister confirm whether the UK consulted the Irish Government, and other Governments with whom it maintains diplomatic relations, on the content and implications of this Bill, including its direct association with other legislation? Were the Bill and its implications the subject of discussions at the last meeting between the Prime Minister and Taoiseach Micheál Martin earlier this year at Hillsborough?

I realise that Amendment 9, in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, is similar to mine. I support them on that because we cannot tolerate crimes outside the UK or the extraterritorial reach of such provisions. I therefore beg to move Amendment 7.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD) [V]]

My Lords, obviously, a government agency cannot grant to an individual immunity from prosecution by a foreign power for offences committed on its soil—a point made strongly a moment ago by the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, who referred to the comments of a Minister in the Dáil. One understands the particular sensitivities in Ireland.

We are dealing with offences for which this country has extraterritorial jurisdiction, of which there are not many. At the moment, these offences consist of murder, manslaughter, crimes against humanity, torture and sexual offences where the victim of the crime is under 18. Under the Council of Europe’s Convention on preventing and combating violence against women and domestic violence—the Istanbul Convention—the Government, in a paper published on 17 August 2020, indicated that they will extend the jurisdiction of the courts of this country to sexual offences committed against persons over the age of 18 and to domestic abuse.

Given that that is the current extension of extraterritorial offences, I would like the Minister to outline which of them any government agency would authorise. A current highly offensive issue that has been referred to many times this afternoon is that of covert policemen entering into relationships with individuals from whom they seek to extract information or to ingratiate themselves with a group under surveillance. That amounts to the offence of sexual intercourse without consent—another definition of rape. Is there a licence to kill, effectively to rape or to torture in overseas jurisdictions? Should there be? Would we be happy to see such immunities enjoyed by agents of a foreign power in this country? I suspect not.

As for the protection of the European Convention on Human Rights, I recall from my experience in the Baha Mousa case the vociferous complaints made by Lieutenant-Colonel Nicholas Mercer, the senior legal adviser in Iraq in 2003, all the way to the top of the Ministry of Defence, against the torture of prisoners by hooding and the use of stress positions against prisoners. These matters had been outlawed in Ireland. He said such conduct was against the European convention and was told that the Attorney-General of the day had advised otherwise, and if he were right, the senior civil servant told him, he should be Attorney-General himself. Of course, the Supreme Court later held that Lieutenant-Colonel Mercer was right that the convention did apply. Right-wing elements on the Government Benches have grumbled ever since about “lawfare”. That is a fight for another day. Their argument that squaddies should be allowed to torture without risk of prosecution or civil liability is for a Bill which will soon be heading towards us. But does this Bill permit such conduct to be authorised for covert agents? I ask the Minister specifically to reply to that point.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Morris of Bolton) (Con)]

I have received no requests to speak after the Minister, so I now call the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Non-Afl) [V]]

This has been a very interesting, albeit short, debate. My anxieties have not necessarily been dissipated by the Minister’s answer. I would like to examine Hansard before deciding whether to bring the amendment back on Report, because there are issues around human rights provisions and European human rights provisions as well.

The noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, outlined the various types of offences that can occur, and asked if the Government were sanctioning those activities outside the UK. The noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, asked about the unintended consequences and if there were extraterritorial consequences. The noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, talked about state agents being used outside the territorial remit of the UK and the impact on diplomatic relations. The noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, talked about the sensitivities associated with this legislation and the use of RIPA, particularly in the context of extraterritorial initiatives. In Northern Ireland and Ireland, the Good Friday agreement and human rights and equalities provisions have to be respected.

This is a significant issue for diplomatic relations. I am afraid that the Minister answered the question solely in terms of the devolved Administrations; I was asking about consultations with the Republic of Ireland and, therefore, acts of criminality that could be sanctioned by the Government outside the UK territory in Ireland itself. I did not get a satisfactory answer to that.

The amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, is similar to mine and is directed to the same issue—how RIPA allows extraterritorial offences, how that presents issues of ethics and how these extraterritorial provisions will be exercised. Both the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, and the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, referred to rendition, which obviously will be subject to other legislative provision and is not covered by this legislation. The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, dealt with overseas criminality and authorisations for that.

I will withdraw the amendment but, on reading Hansard, I may come back on Report to explore this matter further because I am not satisfied with the answers that I have received. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 7 withdrawn.

Competition Appeal Tribunal (Coronavirus) (Recording and Broadcasting) Order 2020

Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick Excerpts

Wednesday 15th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Non-Afl) [V]]

My Lords, it is always a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering. I thank the Minister for his detailed explanation of this statutory instrument. I agree that this anomaly in the coronavirus legislation had to be corrected to make provision for these hearings in the CAT. I note that the 21st report of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee provided a short account of this draft statutory instrument, effectively stating that closed hearings are

“contrary to CAT’s Rules of Procedure”—

an issue that the Minister raised in his introduction.

I have several questions which focus on that issue, and one outside it. Coming from Northern Ireland, I realise that this legislation does not cover the competences of the devolved institutions. Perhaps the Minister could say what arrangements are being made for such tribunal hearings in Northern Ireland and Scotland.

Can the Minister say whether there are cases outstanding because of the need to regularise the situation, or are we approving this statutory instrument retrospectively? If cases are outstanding, how many and for how long?

If coronavirus disappears, will this legislation, which will remain on the statute book until 25 March 2022 as provided for in the sunset clause, be brought back earlier for amendment or deletion, or is there a likelihood in the “new normal”, with digitisation, of recording and broadcasting being continued?

Like the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, I was wondering about capacity issues in respect of broad- casting. Will it be able to take more than 50 participants? Many competition cases have lots of people who are deeply interested in them.

How many cases were held in closed proceedings contrary to CAT rules and procedures, which require hearings to be held in public, but could not have happened in public because they did not meet the current legislative requirements until after the approval of this SI today?

I took note of what the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, said about the economic slump that will probably result from the Covid pandemic, which could lead to many cases of unfair competition and mergers and amalgamations. Will the competition tribunal have the capacity to deal with such issues? If the Minister cannot answer my questions today, perhaps he could write to me at a later date.

Northern Ireland Act 1998 (Section 75 —Designation of Public Authority) Order 2020

Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick Excerpts

Wednesday 8th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Non-Afl) [V]]

My Lords, I welcome this draft statutory instrument. I thank the Minister for his clear explanation of the instrument, which upon commencement will designate the Independent Monitoring Authority for the Citizens’ Rights Agreements as a public authority for the purpose of equality duties, as established by Section 75 of the Northern Irelands Act, which derived from the Good Friday agreement, and Sections 49A and 49B of the Disability Discrimination Act 1995. It is only right and proper that citizens from the 27 EU nations are shown proper and due regard in terms of equality of opportunity.

But, like the noble Lord, Lord Empey, I would like to ask whether are we giving respectful approval in this instance. Premises have been established; staff have been appointed. Did the recruitment of those staff comply with the equality provisions that are required under the equality of opportunity as prescribed in Section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act? I have written to the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland, which is responsible for ensuring those equality provisions are adhered to, and it is very much in support of this draft statutory instrument. I would like to ask the Minister whether there will be a copy of the report that will be published—hopefully on an annual basis—by the Independent Monitoring Authority to ensure that it is complying with these equality provisions.

If we respect the rights of all citizens—as the noble Lords, Lord Hain, Lord Empey and Lord Bruce, have already referred to—there are citizens in Northern Ireland who are being denied their proper rights in terms of the victims’ pension fund, which was fully implemented by the last Parliament, in 2019. Only a few weeks ago, the Northern Ireland Executive provided funds to administer the system. Obviously, that would be launched in the Executive Office, but no department has been appointed to implement the scheme. Therefore, these people who have been victims and who have endured considerable pain, suffering and injury over many years are still without their rightful pensions. That is totally unacceptable, outrageous and one of the egregious problems that has emerged from the current Northern Ireland Executive.

I hope that, in the fullness of time that will be resolved, but I would urge the Secretary of State, via the Minister, to ensure that a department is appointed as quickly as possible to disburse the funds. That is urgently required. I also ask the Minister to ensure, talking to the Secretary of State, that this issue is resolved as quickly as possible, to ensure that there is full equality of opportunity for these people, who have suffered such immeasurable pain and total disregard for far too long.