Teesworks Joint Venture

Debate between Baroness Penn and Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle

Tuesday 30th January 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, as the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, said, there are many areas of concern that are yet to be covered by any investigation. Indeed, the report notes that many issues raised by third parties were outside the scope of its review, such as those raised regarding wildlife die-off and health and safety. There were, of course, many grave concerns and a tragedy of two men dying on the site. There were subsequent accidents where an excavator fell into the river with the driver inside, and dangerous exposure to benzine. There must be concern about whether the remediation of the site has been carried out properly. What further plans do the Government have to look into all those other issues raised locally, which remain concerns and which the report has not covered?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I do not believe that there are any further plans to cover any further reviews.

Long-term Plan for Housing

Debate between Baroness Penn and Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle

Thursday 11th January 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I do not think that the delivery of more affordable housing and the delivery of more beautiful housing need to be in tension with each other. In fact, the right housing in the right place allows more support for development to go ahead, which is one of the big barriers we see to delivering more housing in local areas, and affordable housing should be beautiful housing too. Noble Lords have had a lot of debates in this House about the standards within our homes, particularly within our social housing. We should be no less ambitious for the standards that people enjoy in their housing, whether it is social housing, affordable housing or private housing. The noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, talked about space for children to play, for example. Taking into account that kind of amenity is important for the right development to go ahead. We should recognise that we have made significant progress in recent years in building more houses. We have had some of the highest housing delivery in the past four years that we have had in the past 20 years, and we seek to continue that, but without those measures necessarily needing to be in tension. The noble Lord spoke about Ministers talking to each other in different departments. I reassure him that, particularly on these areas that cut across different interests and on something like net zero or environmental impact, we bring together the Department for Energy Security and Net Zero, my department and Defra to work together to provide solutions on these issues.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I shall follow the theme of social housing. I declare my position as a vice-president of the LGA and the NALC. Responding to the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, the Minister said that the Government are committed to social housing. We have just heard that again, and it is great, but the Minister may be aware of a document from the National Housing Federation, Let’s Fix the Housing Crisis: Delivering a Long-Term Plan for Housing. This crosses over with her former departmental responsibilities. It asserts:

“The wider fiscal, societal and economic benefits of social housing are poorly captured in current cost benefit analysis”,


and, particularly, in the Government’s Green Book. The NHF stresses that we need housing

“in the right location, with the right support for those who need it”,

which sounds very much like the Green Party’s Right Homes, Right Place, Right Price. Does the Minister agree that planning needs to think about this social element as well as the purely spatial element? We have been relying on the market for decades now. It has not worked out very well and has given the crisis we have now, plus the terrible privatisation of right to buy. I will pick up a point from the noble Lord, Lord Crisp: one of the things that the NHF report highlights is the increase in the long-term cost of housing benefit as a result of the increase in the number of retired people who are in private rental housing now. Do we not have to join up far more planning and financial considerations and pure human considerations to secure an affordable place for everybody to live?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, a number of the changes that we are making to the NPPF address some of the noble Baroness’s concerns. They are all about allowing a local area, using the evidence of local need, to produce a plan that works for that area. The noble Baroness touched on the Green Book and how we value social housing but also wider social benefits when we look at value for money in government projects. The Government have done work on reforming the Green Book over a number of years to ensure that we better take that into account. There is also better assessment of national well-being as a factor when we look at policies. We are looking, for example, at valuing our green space more clearly in our policy assessments, so that we can take a more well-rounded look. That is at the heart of my department’s mission. When looking at levelling up across the whole of the United Kingdom, one point that often gets made is that the old ways of doing things incentivises you to invest only in London and the south-east. While that is incredibly important, we know that investing in communities across our country is how we will actually deliver for people, and that is what my department has been created to do.

Levelling Up

Debate between Baroness Penn and Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle

Wednesday 22nd November 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord is absolutely right that there was funding under previous rounds. However, it is right that the UK Government take a cohesive look at where investment is needed and, given the budgetary position faced by the Northern Ireland Executive and the absence of devolved institutions, we need to look at that very carefully. That relates to his question because the longer we have an absence of any Executive in place, the more keenly we feel some of those pressures and the need to be able to take those decisions in the round. As I have said, this funding remains there for Northern Ireland; it has not been reallocated elsewhere. We are extremely keen to work with the Executive as soon as possible when they return, so that we can address all the challenges that face public services in Northern Ireland.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I declare my positions as a vice-president of the Local Government Association and the National Association of Local Councils. The Minister has used the phrase “committed to simplifying” a number of times. Would the simplest thing not be for Westminster to get out of the road and simply agree a funding formula to the areas of the country most in need of what has been identified as levelling up—areas with the lowest healthy life expectancy or the worst levels of child poverty? Should it not allocate a multiyear long-term funding stream to those areas to allow them to decide what projects they want to spend money on to improve the life of their communities? Is it not wildly inefficient, not to mention rather curious in light of the number of Tory-held constituencies that end up with funding—perhaps currently Tory-held is a better term—not to have a fair and transparent system, perhaps even one that could be agreed across all political parties, so that people could be confident that this would go on for the long term and local communities could make decisions for themselves and invest consistently?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I absolutely reject the noble Baroness’s assertion that this funding has been allocated in an unfair or untransparent manner. Alongside the projects that have received funding, we have published a clear methodology note about how we have approached the allocations. Although I may have heard worries about the pace of delivery and the amount of money available, I think that overall both Front Benches opposite welcomed the announcement that we made on Monday. On the overall approach to local government finance, we have a system at the moment that recognises needs. It means that those councils with the most deprived households within them get 17% higher funding per dwelling than those with the fewest. I recognise the calls for wider reform to local government funding but noble Lords will know that, in the wake of Covid and other uncertainties, this Government made a commitment that while we should press ahead with that, it would not be for now but for the next Parliament.

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[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, since we have time, and since the Minister is getting to grips with her new portfolio, I will raise a somewhat conceptual point. Has the Minister considered that levelling up also means that there is a counteracting force, namely the concentration of power, resources and development in London and the south-east, which they are struggling to cope with? In Cambridge, for example, a proposed development of 1,000 homes was recently turned down because there was not enough water supply for those homes. Does the Minister see that continuing overdevelopment—the pushing of money and resources into London and the south-east—is a countervailing force to attempts to level up?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I do not think that that is the way in which I will be approaching my new department and role. I think we can both continue to invest in London and the south-east as great places to live and work and an important part of our economy and also invest in levelling up across the rest of the country. I acknowledge, however, that when you have denser populations and more competition over resources, it adds pressure. Those are different forms of problems that big cities, with high development needs, might need to address versus rural areas, as was highlighted by the right reverend Prelate. We need the right approach for the right area, which is part of what devolving power allows us to do.

Bank of England: Interest Rate Policy

Debate between Baroness Penn and Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle

Wednesday 12th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, the Minister has referred to the drivers of inflation, but she did not mention greedflation—the fact that, as the OECD figures which came out this week show, British company profits were boosted by almost one-quarter between the end of 2019 and early 2023, faster than nearly any other state’s. In the last Question, we referred to the fact that we have a huge lack of competition across our economy. Four, five or six big companies dominate all the sectors, often cross-owned by hedge funds. Are the Government going to do something about greedflation?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

While the Government do not recognise the picture that the noble Baroness has painted, we are looking carefully at the data and ensuring that competition is working properly. That is why my right honourable friend the Chancellor met the major regulators last week or the week before, I believe, and agreed a plan of action in each of those areas to ensure that consumers are getting a fair deal.

Financial Services and Markets Bill

Debate between Baroness Penn and Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle

Report stage
Tuesday 6th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I understand the case that the noble Baroness makes, but it is not for an amendment to this Bill but for regulator rules to address the issue that she raises.

I turn to Amendments 8A and 9A from my noble friend Lord Trenchard, which seek to remove the requirement for the FCA and the PRA to align with relevant international standards when facilitating the new secondary objectives and instead have regard to these standards. As we have heard, international standards are set by standard setting bodies, such as the Basel Committee on Banking Supervision. These standards are typically endorsed at political level through international fora such as the G7 and G20 but, given the need to enable implementation across multiple jurisdictions, they may not be specifically calibrated to the law or market of individual members. It is then for national Governments and regulators to decide how best to implement these standards in their jurisdictions. This includes considering which international standards are pertinent to the regulatory activity being undertaken and are therefore relevant.

Since we left the EU, the regulators have been generally responsible for making the judgment on how best to align with relevant standards when making detailed rules that apply to firms. This approach was taken in the Financial Services Act 2021, in relation to the UK’s approach to the implementation of Basel standards for bank regulation and the FCA’s implementation of the UK’s investment firms prudential regime. It was also reflected in the overarching approach set out in the two consultations as part of the future regulatory framework review.

Part of the regulators’ judgment involves considering how best to advance their statutory objectives. Following this Bill, this will include the new secondary competitiveness and growth objectives. The current drafting therefore provides sufficient flexibility for the regulators to tailor international standards appropriately to UK markets to facilitate growth and international competitiveness, while demonstrating the Government’s ongoing commitment for the UK to remain a global leader in promoting high international standards—which, as we have heard, the UK has often played a key part in developing. The Government consider that this drafting helps maintain the UK’s reputation as a global financial centre.

I turn finally to Amendment 112 from the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett. The Government consider the financial services sector to be of vital importance to the UK economy. The latest figures from industry reveal that financial and related professional services employ approximately 2.5 million people across the UK, with around two-thirds of those jobs being outside London. Together, these jobs account for an estimated 12% of the UK’s economy.

The financial services sector also makes a significant tax contribution, which amounted to more than £75 billion in 2019-20—more than a tenth of total UK tax receipts—and helps fund vital public services. It is not for the Government to determine the optimum size of the UK financial services sector, but in many of the areas that the noble Baroness calls for reporting on, the information would be largely duplicative of work already published by the Government, public sector bodies or other industry groups.

For example, the State of the Sector report, which was co-authored by the City of London Corporation and first published last year, covers talent, innovation, the wider financial services ecosystem, and international developments and comparisons. The Government will publish a second iteration of the report later this year. The Financial Stability Report—

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

The Minister said that was a City of London report, but then said it was a government report. Surely the City of London Corporation is not an independent source on the financial sector—it is the financial sector.

Financial Services and Markets Bill

Debate between Baroness Penn and Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle

Committee stage
Tuesday 21st March 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Eatwell (Lab)]

May I comment on the issue of stress tests, which the Minister also raised during Questions this afternoon? You can stress test only risks that you know are there. It depends on the underlying model that you create to examine in your stress tests. Thus stress tests did not pick up the LDI problem at all because it was not there in the models that were used. In financial services, risks appear in entirely unexpected places, and relying on stress tests is, and has been demonstrated to be, a very weak answer. She should reconsider her reliance on this argument.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

Since it is related, I also question the readiness for a 1-in-200-year shock. We have seen very similar kinds of mathematical approaches, if you like, taken to issues such as flood risk and other climate risks, and they have been found to be very ineffective in dealing with problems. They only increase the failure to understand risks.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I would point to stress tests as one of the tools that the Bank of England, including the FCA and the PRA, has in its toolbox for securing financial stability. It is not the only tool that it uses. The noble Lord is right that it tests against certain scenarios, which are updated each year to take into account the changing picture around the world and look at different risks, but it can test for only the risks that we have thought about. It is a tool in the toolbox, not a solution to everything.

The noble Lord mentioned LDI. The picture there is mixed. It was identified as a source of risk by the Financial Policy Committee but the extent of movement in gilt prices that it was then stress-tested against was far greater in the scenario that we saw unfold. It may be a good example of the benefits of being able to horizon-scan and look for risk—risk was identified—but also of the limits of some of that work. I completely acknowledge that. The same applies to the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett.

Amendments 241C and 241D relate to important regulatory reforms introduced following the global financial crisis and the recommendations by the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards. I pay tribute to the important work of that commission and to its members who are here today. It has had a lasting legacy in improving the safety and soundness of the UK’s financial system.

Amendment 241C relates to the ring-fencing regime, which, as we have heard, is a major post-crisis reform separating retail activities from investment banking activities in large banking groups. As required by the Financial Services (Banking Reform) Act 2013, the Treasury appointed an independent panel, chaired by Sir Keith Skeoch, to review the ring-fencing regime. The legislation required this review to take place after the regime had been in operation for two years; that review concluded in March 2022. I say to my noble friend Lord Trenchard that the Skeoch review looked at the questions about the effectiveness of the ring-fencing regime, and it is in the context of that review that we are discussing the way forward.

In December, as part of the Edinburgh reforms, the Chancellor announced a series of changes to the ring-fencing regime. These broadly follow the recommendations made by the independent review. It concluded that the financial regulatory landscape has changed significantly since the last financial crisis—a point made by my noble friend Lady Noakes. UK banks are much better capitalised and a bank resolution regime has been introduced to ensure that bank failures can be managed in an orderly way in future, minimising risks to depositors and public funds.

In the light of these considerations, the independent review concluded that changes could be made in the short term to improve the functionality of the regime. Crucially, the panel stressed that these could be made while maintaining financial stability safeguards. The panel also recommended that, over the longer term, the Government should review the practicalities of aligning the ring-fencing and resolution regimes. I assure noble Lords that the Government remain firmly committed to the objectives of the ring-fencing regime: to protect core banking services, such as retail deposits, from risks elsewhere in the financial system while minimising risks to taxpayers in the case of a bank failure. As recent events have shown, it is critical that the Government and regulators have the necessary powers to act decisively in pursuit of these objectives.

In response to the review, the Government have announced their intention to consult later this year on a series of near-term reforms to the ring-fencing regime to implement the independent review’s recommendations. The proposed reforms will make the regime more adaptable, simpler and better placed to serve customers, while maintaining important protections for depositors and financial stability. Alongside this, and in response to the review’s longer-term recommendations, the Government recently published a call for evidence that explores how better to align the ring-fencing regime with the resolution regime. I assure all noble Lords that, in the context of that longer-term call for evidence, no decisions have been made on the longer-term future of ring-fencing. The call for evidence is seeking views on a wide range of options including the possibility of disapplying the regime where banks are deemed resolvable, which was one of the Skeoch review’s recommendations. It also seeks views on retaining or further alternative options for reforming the regime.

British Banking Sector

Debate between Baroness Penn and Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle

Tuesday 21st March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

The noble Lord is right that the Credit Suisse subsidiary in the UK was regulated by the Prudential Regulation Authority and met its obligations under those regulations.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords—

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[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, we have had two questions addressing the dangers of the competitiveness agenda of the Edinburgh reforms, which the Green Party has consistently opposed. The other element is that the Government talk about boosting growth. The Minister suggested that was for the general economy, but it has been presented as a desire to grow the financial sector. Is there not, as demonstrated by recent events, a great risk of too much finance and too large a financial sector when what we need is a real-sized financial sector to serve the real economy?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I disagree with the noble Baroness. The UK’s financial services sector is one of our great strengths in and of itself and as an engine to power growth across the rest of our economy; that will remain the case under this Government.

Silicon Valley Bank

Debate between Baroness Penn and Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle

Tuesday 14th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I have been reading paragraph 11 of this Statement against paragraph 17. Paragraph 11 rather surprisingly says that

“the system worked as we would hope.”

Paragraph 17 notes that officials at the Treasury and regulators

“worked tirelessly through the weekend to grip the situation … and to prevent real jeopardy to hundreds of the UK’s most innovative companies.”—[Official Report, Commons, 13/3/23; cols. 560-61.]

As the noble Lord, Lord Fox, observed, it was lucky that it was a weekend. We surely do not want to have our financial sector and the stability of our economy dependent on that kind of luck.

Paragraph 11 states:

“the system worked as we would have hoped.”

If this is really how the system is supposed to work, I suggest that we need a new or at least significantly reformed system—a more secure, stable, less fragile system than what followed the collapse of the Silicon Valley Bank at the weekend. The noble Lord, Lord Fox, talked about the speed at which events happen these days. There is a Bloomberg article headlined, “The Digital Age Ushers In A Speedier, More Viral Breed of Bank Run”, and I think that was clearly demonstrated here.

The Minister mentioned the Financial Services and Markets Bill, which refers to maintaining the UK’s position as an open and global financial hub. Have not the events of the weekend demonstrated the extreme dangers of pushing that as far as we possibly can, and the dangers of Clause 24, on the competitiveness of UK markets, which the Finance Innovation Lab, among many others, has noted is a push towards deregulation—to reduce regulation and increase risk—when it is clear we cannot afford the amount of risk we have now, as demonstrated by this case and the events involving our pensions last October? As we speak, the situation with Credit Suisse in Europe is still very unclear, as is that of a number of US banks.

Will the Government take a real look at the Financial Services and Markets Bill and their positioning of the UK’s financial sector, and look for a safe, secure sector that meets the needs of the real economy, rather than chasing growth?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

On the noble Baroness’s final point, I do not think that those two aims need to contradict each other. In fact, the Financial Services and Markets Bill aims to deliver on both. I emphasise to the House the importance of a healthy financial services sector to growing our economy in all parts of our country. I point out to the noble Baroness that no one has said that the events over the weekend have brought into question the UK’s prudential regulatory regime and the protections we have put in place.

However, the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Fox, about the changing context and being able to remain dynamic in our assessment of the risks and, therefore, in looking at how our system works, is absolutely right. The world changes very quickly and there is absolutely no room for complacency here. But do I think that the reforms we are proposing in the Bill are right? Do I think they will both promote growth in the UK and protect the safety and soundness of our system? I do, and we will continue to strike that balance as we take our reforms forward.

Financial Services and Markets Bill

Debate between Baroness Penn and Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle

Committee stage
Monday 30th January 2023 Grand Committee

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

That is one element to be considered. I was pointing in particular to the combined role of the FOS and the Business Banking Resolution Service in providing a route of redress for over 99% of businesses. In part, it comes back to my question in relation to Amendment 40 from the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, on the Government’s commitment to regulating business lending only where there is a clear case for doing so, given some of the increased costs that bringing SME lending into regulation would bring. I return to the point that we currently have a consultation out on the Consumer Credit Act in which there is a question on business lending; the Government are considering this through that consultation.

With that, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, will withdraw Amendment 40 at this stage—

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

I think the whole thrust of the noble Baroness’s argument is that the non-statutory protection effectively offered to SMEs through the ombudsman and independent dispute resolution procedures is essentially the same as having statutory protection. She suggested that statutory protection would cost more, but if the protection is equal through these other mechanisms, surely the costs of the banks providing the documentation and the system to enforce those mechanisms would be very similar to the statutory costs.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

The noble Baroness touches on one possible difference in documentation needing to be provided where something is regulated versus where it is voluntary. That comes back to the question of SME lending having increased costs for banks and alternative finance providers. This can be passed on to businesses in the form of higher fees and interest rates, and it can affect the availability of credit for small businesses. The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, mentioned start-up banks and challenger banks. When we have discussions elsewhere on other issues related to financial services regulation, we also discuss how we create a more competitive environment in the banking sector, as smaller banks can struggle to deal with regulations. This is a general point about balance.

Financial Markets: Stability

Debate between Baroness Penn and Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle

Thursday 3rd November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I cannot confirm that, but I am sure that when that Bill comes to this House, we will spend sufficient time scrutinising its provisions and ensuring that they deliver the outcome that we all want—a stronger financial services sector—which is important not just for the City of London but for people’s everyday lives in the country.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

The Minister referred to the amount of employment from the financial sector, which, by my figures, is about 7% of total paid employment, meaning that 93% of people are not working in the financial sector. If the Government are focusing their efforts on increasing the financial sector while failing to meet the needs of the sectors of the economy that provide 93% of jobs, are we not all losing out?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I do not believe that that characterisation is right. Ensuring that we have a strong financial services sector also benefits many other parts of our economy in terms of access to capital, and many other things. It does not need to be at the expense of the rest of our economy. It strengthens the rest of our economy.

Women’s Health Strategy for England

Debate between Baroness Penn and Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle

Thursday 21st July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I pay tribute to the noble Baroness’s work in this area and campaigning on this issue, and to the chairs of the pregnancy loss review, Samantha Collinge and Zoe Clark-Coates. That review’s work is still ongoing, but we were able to pick up an interim recommendation from it to allow us to start work on the introduction of the certificate. I believe the NHS will implement this and is undertaking the appropriate scoping work to make sure we get the implementation right. That will be taken forward as soon as it can.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, the Minister referred to the Government’s work developing a reproductive health plan, particularly in the context of what she said was the commitment to safe abortion. I hope that she is aware of the letter that was sent to the DPP by 66 organisations, including the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, and Southall Black Sisters, which was calling for an end to prosecutions for accessing abortion in the UK. Recent research has demonstrated that over the past eight years, at least 17 women have been investigated by the police for allegedly ending their own pregnancies under illegal circumstances, although the actual figure is likely to be higher.

I am sorry that this is very disturbing. In one case, a 15 year-old suffered what was seen as an unexplained stillbirth at 28 weeks’ gestation. She had her phone and laptop confiscated in the middle of her GCSE exams. She was driven to self-harm. A coroner concluded that this stillbirth had occurred through natural causes. Are the Government seriously looking at what can be done about not inflicting similar ordeals on girls and women, and are they considering the obvious step of decriminalising abortion?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, prosecution decisions lie with the Director of Public Prosecutions and his staff. The Government have no plans to decriminalise abortion, but we are absolutely committed to ensuring that women can continue to access robust and high-quality abortion services and that young women can access sexual health services and other health services, to ensure that they get the proper support that they need, whatever circumstances they are in, and that they get support and care from the services that they seek to access.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, coming to another issue, I welcome the strong coverage of endometriosis in this strategy. However, there is great concern from those who have been campaigning to get better recognition for chronic urinary tract infections. These get two mentions in the glossary only, and nothing in the main text. The background to this is that chronic—rather than recurring—urinary tract infections affect women in particular for many months or years. The NHS has only just realised that this condition exists. The term has still not been clinically defined by NICE. I am aware that this is a very detailed area. Can the Minister perhaps write to me about what progress is being made on ensuring that the full assessment is available to women? Currently it is available only in a limited number of oversubscribed specialist clinics.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I would be really happy to write to the noble Baroness in detail on the point that she raises. It is one that I am aware of, but I cannot give her a more detailed answer at this time.

Ambulance Pressures

Debate between Baroness Penn and Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle

Tuesday 19th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I think the noble Lord is referring to the national hospital discharge taskforce, which is running a national 100-day discharge challenge, which I think will be the sprint review. It is working across the health and social care system to address all the different pinch points. One of the associated aspects is that integrated care systems can now become discharge front-runners to share good practice and ambitious ideas, so that those who are doing best in this area can share best practice quickly with those who might need more support.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I note that the Statement records that an estimated one in 19 people tested positive for Covid-19 in the week up to 6 July, compared with one in 25 the previous week. I am sure the Minister is aware that this week there has been a joint leading article from the editors of both the British Medical Journal and the Health Service Journal, entitled “The NHS is not living with covid, it’s dying from it”. The article suggests that the Government are “gaslighting the public” about the threat of Covid, and says that

“the epidemic is far from over”.

I should perhaps declare an interest here as someone who is in week seven of a Covid infection and still suffering symptoms.

The article suggests four measures that the Government should be carefully considering: masks on public transport and in health service settings, the return of free testing, working-from-home recommendations and gathering limits. Can the Minister assure me that the Government are at least giving consideration to that recommendation from such a serious source?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

The Government keep our response to Covid under review and take advice from many sources, but there is also a huge breadth and depth of expertise within government. The noble Baroness is right that very high rates of Covid are currently circulating. We take matters such as long Covid very seriously, and we have put additional resources into making sure that there is support for people who suffer from it.

However, we are in a different position from when we had to have significant restrictions on people’s lives—the vaccine has been very effective in that regard —so the Government’s focus is on learning to live with Covid. The noble Baroness is right that it has not gone away, so we need to make sure that in our response we are well adapted to ensuring that we can continue to deliver good healthcare services while Covid is in circulation in the population.

Energy (Oil and Gas) Profits Levy Bill

Debate between Baroness Penn and Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle

2nd reading & 3rd reading
Wednesday 13th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I thank all noble Lords for their contributions to this debate. In closing, I will focus on responding as far as possible to the many and varied points raised.

As I said at the beginning, the global context of high oil and gas prices has driven extraordinary profits for UK oil and gas producers. It is both fiscally prudent and morally right therefore that, through the Bill, we introduce a temporary and targeted levy on these extraordinary profits, which will help fund more cost of living support. At the same time, companies must have ample incentives to continue to invest and the Bill has been tailor-made to account for this. The new 80% investment allowance will provide them with an additional, immediate incentive to invest. This means that, overall, businesses will get a 91p tax saving for every £1 invested.

Turning to the points raised in today’s debate, the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, asked about revenue that could have been raised had the levy been in place between January and May this year, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Kramer and Lady Bennett, made similar points. It is not standard for the Government to publish assessments of the fiscal and economic impacts of measures that are not being introduced and it is not clear that doing so in this case would be a beneficial use of public resources. I would also add that since the beginning of the year, three significant things have changed. The situation in Ukraine altered considerably, inflation is considerably higher than previously expected and the Government had concrete information on the indicative levels of the autumn and winter energy price cap, allowing us to design the levy and the related cost of living support to meet the scale of the challenge we faced.

As for whether an earlier commencement date for the levy was an option, as noble Lords would no doubt expect, the Government carefully considered several options. Indeed, following thought and with time to consider, the levy has a more appropriate tax base. The result is that it is not depressed by historical losses and has an investment incentive that is not only more generous but more effectively targeted at new investment. The Government are also very careful when it comes to the retrospective application of taxes. Although this tax will apply from 26 May—the date it was announced—there needs to be careful consideration whenever the question of retrospection is raised, particularly in relation to tax.

The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, also asked about the Government’s plan to phase out the energy profits levy if oil and gas prices return in future years to historically more normal levels. As the former Chancellor told the Treasury Select Committee, the Government are discussing that with industry. The former Chancellor also mentioned the Brent crude price over the last five or 10 years, which is along the lines of $60 or $70 a barrel. Similarly, companies have communicated to their shareholders what they would consider normal oil prices; they tend to use numbers in the range of $60 or $70, so that gives a sense. The situation is complicated because prices have changed at different rates, with gas, for example, reaching a peak in March. However, as the noble Lord mentioned and other noble Lords noted, there is a sunset clause of just over three years in the legislation as a backstop. If prices come back to the range that the former Chancellor discussed, one might expect the levy to fall away sooner.

The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, also mentioned that fossil fuel investment will be subsidised in the tax system at a rate of 20 times the incentives available to renewable energy schemes. Other noble Lords expressed concern around the investment incentives in the Bill and whether these challenge our commitment to net zero. Having an element of independence of oil and gas in our energy system is important, and sourcing gas locally, through the North Sea, makes us less dependent on imports. As set out in the Government’s energy security strategy, the North Sea will still be a foundation of our energy security, so it is right that we continue to encourage investment in oil and gas. Our oil and gas have lower emissions intensity compared to imported liquid natural gas.

As I noted in my opening speech, in meeting our net-zero target by 2050 we might still use a quarter of the gas that we use now, so to reduce our reliance on imported fossil fuels we must fully utilise our great North Sea reserve. However, that does not in any way contradict our commitment to our net-zero targets. I take issue with the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, claiming that this Government are in any way climate change denying. The UK has decarbonised its economy further and faster than any other G7—

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

Just to clarify, I was referring to the Scott Morrison Government of Australia when I said “climate change denying”.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I believe she was comparing that Government to this one. This Government have legislated for our net-zero targets—the first major country to do so. We have decarbonised further and faster than our G7 counterparts, and we have shown global leadership on climate change and wider nature and biodiversity through our chair of the G7 and COP 26. I know that noble Lords will continue to push the Government to do better, go further and do more. That is absolutely right and appropriate. The noble Baroness believes in effective campaigning; I am not sure that an effective way to campaign is not to recognise some of the progress made on the journey.

The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, said that investment will be subsidised in the tax system at a rate of 20 times the incentives available to renewable energy schemes. We do not recognise these figures. Oil and gas companies within the ring-fence regime are already paying tax on their profits at more than three times the rate of other companies, so any tax relief is reducing a higher tax bill. Although oil and gas companies save an additional 45p in tax for every £1 they invest—91p in total from the levy—they will pay tax at 65% of remaining profits. In contrast, outside the oil and gas ring-fence regime, profits on companies such as those in the renewables sector are taxed at 19%. So if a company made £100 in profit it would pay £65 in tax in the oil and gas regime but only £19 if it were outside the regime. If it then reinvested £25 of that profit, an oil and gas company would still pay more than twice the tax of a normal company—just over £42 compared with just under £13 for a company outside the regime.

The noble Lords, Lord Sikka and Lord Teverson, expressed concern that a large proportion of the estimated £5 billion of revenue raised in the first 12 months of the levy being in place would be lost to the investment allowance. I reassure noble Lords that the £5 billion estimate is net of the effect of the investment allowance.

UK Infrastructure Bank Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Penn and Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle

Report stage
Monday 4th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I offer Green group support for Amendment 20, to which we would have attached our name had there been space.

In Committee, I suggested that the bank should not be in the hands of the Treasury at all. I got some expressions of interest but not enough support to bring it back on Report. However, it is clear that we need systems thinking, as I often say in your Lordships’ House. We need an approach that looks beyond the narrow growth in GDP to something broader and more holistic. This amendment is a step towards achieving that.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I speak on this group with some trepidation; I hope I do not show the lack of humility that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, has accused my department of. I will stand up for the Treasury: in my dealings with this group of public servants, they have been bright and suitably humble, trying to work in the best interests of the country.

I will take the amendments in reverse order. The amendment tabled by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, as he explained, seeks to ensure that the bank’s board has the necessary expertise to deliver on its objectives. He is right to focus on the importance of the bank’s board in steering this nascent institution to deliver on its two wide-ranging objectives across the whole of the UK.

I reassure noble Lords that the bank’s board already contains a wealth of experience in infrastructure finance, policy-making, economics and green investments, across the public and private sectors. Collectively, its members have worked at similar national organisations, such as the Canada Infrastructure Bank, the UK Green Investment Bank and UK Export Finance, as well as leading financial services firms and central government departments. John Flint, the bank’s CEO, was chief executive of HSBC, and Annie Ropar was the CFO at the Canada Infrastructure Bank. So, in its infant form, it has already attracted some high-quality individuals to work there.

The bank’s non-executive directors were recruited in line with the guidelines set out by the Office of the Commissioner for Public Appointments, and were selected based on the skills they could bring to the board to deliver on the bank’s mandate. These appointments could be audited by OCPA in due course. OCPA’s guidelines include a principle of merit, which means

“providing Ministers with a choice of high quality candidates, drawn from a strong, diverse field, whose skills, experiences and qualities have been judged to meet the needs of the public body or statutory office in question.”

As I have said in previous groups, in drafting this Bill, we are seeking to create a high-level framework within which the bank can operate, while providing for the longevity of its objectives. Therefore, given that appointments are already recruited in line with OCPA’s guidelines, which we expect OCPA to review and which include a principle of merit, I do not think it is necessary to add greater specificity to the Bill on this point. Including these provisions could be overburdensome and prevent the bank and Treasury hiring the most appropriate people for the roles.

I spoke about the recent appointments in Committee, so do not propose to do so in detail again, but I would be very surprised if the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, could find much fault with the appointees. He has also expressed an interest in the representation of the devolved Administrations and, as he spoke about on the previous group, in making sure that the board and the bank command the confidence of all four nations in the UK. As I said to him before and will happily say again, commanding that confidence is central to how the bank has gone about its business. The skills of the board will adequately represent the needs of all four nations, although, as I said on the previous group, specifics in that area are not necessarily a discussion for now, as they are part of the process of legislative consent. I therefore hope that the noble and learned Lord does not move his amendment when it is reached.

The amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, seeks to ensure that the bank always has a representative of the workers on its board. The UK Corporate Governance Code already states that a company should have one or a combination of a director appointed from the workforce, a formal workforce advisory panel or a designated non-executive director to facilitate engagement with the workforce. It also states that, if the board has not chosen one or more of these methods, it should explain what alternative arrangements are in place and why.

I give the noble Lord my absolute reassurance that the bank will comply with the UK Corporate Governance Code; however, as I have said, it is a nascent institution, with its board appointments made and the non-executive directors joining only recently. The bank has not yet had the opportunity to determine how it will meet this specific provision. It is currently establishing its governance and will report on its progress in its annual report and accounts. The noble Lord can expect an update there.

UK Infrastructure Bank Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Penn and Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle

Committee stage & Lords Hansard - Part 1
Tuesday 14th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I commit to the Committee that I and the Government will listen very carefully to our proceedings today and, of course, to the advice from the noble Lord’s committee and other expert advisers to the Government. On the particular discussion we are having on a number of aspects of this Bill, I think we agree on the aims that we want to achieve. We may disagree on the mechanism of it, but that does not mean that the contributions of this Committee will not be taken into account before we get to Report.

I hope that, with all that in mind, the noble Lord, Lord Teverson—oh, I have skipped ahead. I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, will withdraw her amendment and that other noble Lords will not move theirs when they are reached.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

I thank the Minister for her encouraging, in some respects, response to this rich debate on this important group. I am sure that noble Lords who have flooded into the Chamber for another purpose will be pleased to know that I will not run through all 14 amendments in the group individually.

In welcoming what the Minister said, the Government say that they regard energy conservation and demand reduction as an important part of the bank’s remit. We all find that encouraging, but I am sensing that the broad mood of the Committee, right around these Benches, is that there is still a very strong desire to see that in the Bill.

I also pick up on the point which I guess the Minister made in reference to my amendment on roads. The Minister said—I think I am quoting directly—that “clean air is covered under climate change”. I direct the Minister to the point I made: about half of the particulate matter pollution from vehicles comes from tyres and brakes. That is not a climate change issue but it is very much an air pollution issue, and it needs to be considered.

I have no doubt that we will keep coming back to Amendment 17 on energy efficiency. The noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, made the important point that this is not just an environmental issue; it is also a poverty reduction issue, and there is a dual benefit from that.

I want to pick up one issue that I think the Minister did not cover, on the points I made about resource use, pollution and novel chemicals. I understand that, as a Treasury Minister, she may not encounter novel chemicals, phosphates and nitrogen cycles on a daily basis. However, I ask her to go and talk to Defra about those issues.

I will return to the whole issue of planetary limits on Report. With expressions of interest around the Committee, I think I will definitely return to the issue of roads on Report. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Schools Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Penn and Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle

Committee stage
Wednesday 8th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I hope to assure the noble Lord that those requirements will be written into the academy trust standards. If academy trusts do not meet those standards there will be enforcement mechanisms that they will need to comply with. If there is non-compliance on a specific standard where the trust is otherwise meeting requirements, it is likely that the Secretary of State would issue a compliance direction, which sounds like it might emulate some of the interventions the noble Lord took with my noble friend when he was previously Minister. If a trust failed to comply with a number of standards, or the Secretary of State was satisfied that non-compliance indicated a weakness in the governance or management of the trust, he might issue a notice to improve. The requirement on academies when it comes to special educational needs that is in place at the moment will be replicated in these standards. There will be a mechanism by which to enforce the meeting of those standards.

That takes me on to Amendment 22 on the inclusion of work experience. Again, we do not intend to use the regulations to place any significant new burdens on academies but we will replicate existing requirements in this area. For example, academy trusts must secure independent careers guidance for year 8 to year 13 pupils and have regard to the underpinning statutory guidance, which makes it clear that secondary schools and colleges should follow the Gatsby benchmarks of good career guidance and offer work experience placements as part of their careers strategy for all pupils. As the noble Lord will know, the Education (Careers Guidance in Schools) Act 2022, due to be commenced in September, will extend the duty to secure independent careers guidance to all academy schools and alternative provision academies, and bring year 7 pupils into scope for the first time. That will be replicated and, as I explained to the noble Lord, Lord Addington, there is also a mechanism to ensure that those standards are met and enforced.

Finally, I completely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Addington, on the importance of extracurricular activities. It is not our intention to go beyond the existing requirements on schools. For many of those activities, the school is best placed to design activities that meet the needs of its pupils and, to address the amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, situate them in its community. On the noble Baroness’s Amendment 21A, there is already provision in the funding agreement that requires academy trusts to ensure that each of its academies is at the heart of its community, promoting community cohesion and sharing facilities with other schools, other educational institutions and the wider community. It is our intention to reflect that in the academy standards when they are developed.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

Could the Minister address the point I made about democracy within schools and pupils having a say about their own education? If she is not able to do so now, will she do so later?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

Again, I think that would be something that would not be set out in the academy standards but would be best developed by schools themselves. I think I have covered all the points raised in this group, and I hope the noble Baroness will feel able to withdraw Amendment 8.

North Sea Oil and Gas Producers: Investment Allowances

Debate between Baroness Penn and Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle

Tuesday 7th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

The Government absolutely recognise the importance of consistent baseload power as well; that is why we are committed, for example, to more investment in nuclear.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

The OECD last year calculated that UK support for fossil fuels, through tax breaks and subsidies for exploration and research and development, totalled £10 billion. Can the Minister tell me what the new figure will be with the 80% investment allowance? Moreover, last January the noble Lord, Lord Grimstone of Boscobel, told me that the Government were seeking to ensure that free trade agreements included an end to fossil fuel subsidies. How is that going?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I believe that it is going very well. As I have explained to the House, according to the IEA’s definition of fossil fuel subsidy, the UK is subsidy-free and will continue to be so. We are happy to offer investment allowances to companies investing in the North Sea: it is a key part of our energy security strategy and consistent with our path to net zero. I reassure the noble Baroness, that those investment allowances can be used to support the decarbonisation of upstream activities, which could include electrification, making it a cleaner form of energy.

Economy Update

Debate between Baroness Penn and Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle

Thursday 26th May 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I completely understand the point the noble Lord is making and have to apologise; I tried to get an answer in anticipation to this being raised. I do not have one, but I am very happy to write. I reassure him that those on prepayment meters will get the £400 rebate delivered by a different mechanism. We are ensuring that they receive it.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I join almost the whole House in welcoming the belated arrival of the energy profits levy, albeit at an inadequate level. I note that the Statement spends almost as much time on the new investment allowance, through which, for every £1 an oil or gas company invests, it gets 90% back in tax relief. From the Treasury factsheet accompanying this, it appears that this tax offset applies only to investment in the oil and gas sector. The Statement makes no reference to renewables. I believe a report is out in the Independent now expressing astonishment that it appears that oil and gas companies, if they chose to invest in renewables, would not get the tax relief on them. Can the Minister confirm that there will be the same tax relief on renewables as the Government are offering on oil and gas?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, this is a levy on oil and gas producers, but the Government have also been clear that in the medium term, in terms of our energy security, new investment in those sectors will be needed. The investment relief has been designed to ensure that this is not deterred.

Dasgupta Review

Debate between Baroness Penn and Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle

Thursday 7th April 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I do not think that the Government agree with the move towards a stakeholder governance structure for businesses, but the noble Lord is right that, in our financial system, we need to make the decision-making with transparency on the impact of investments on our economy. We set out a green finance strategy in July 2019 that addresses all sorts of aspects of that, from developing a green taxonomy to having nature-related financial disclosures in our finance system. Overall, the Government are committed to the UK becoming the world’s first green global financial centre.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

I am very pleased to hear the Minister referring to—

[Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts (Con)]

My noble friend the Minister has talked about food security—as has Defra. Do she and the department recognise that we grow only 50% of the food that we eat? In those circumstances, and given the topsy-turvy world in which we live, should the policy not now be called “food insecurity” rather than food security?

Covid-19: Financial Support Schemes

Debate between Baroness Penn and Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle

Wednesday 6th April 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My noble friend is correct that, while there were reduced checks in place on bounce-back loans, there was still a requirement for lenders to make checks, and we are quite clear in the terms of the loan guarantees that, if it appears that those checks were not made, then those businesses do not have a claim against their guarantee.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

Following on from the question from the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, and his reference to the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, the explanation that the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, gave to the Treasury Committee as to why the Government’s performance was so parlous was that there was a 20% to 25% staff turnover at Her Majesty’s Treasury. Can the Minister explain why there was such a high turnover of staff and what the Government are doing to ameliorate a situation, which is clearly creating a problem?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I think one of the reasons that the Treasury, and other government departments, can have high turnovers is that they have talented staff who do excellent work, and that can be desired by those in the other sector. We work hard to ensure that the Civil Service is a great place to work, and that people have the job satisfaction to carry on.

Spring Statement Affordability Test

Debate between Baroness Penn and Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle

Wednesday 23rd March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

The announcement today will be worth hundreds of pounds to millions of people across this country and will help them with the cost of living. The Government have a long-term plan to help everyone into work and to progress in work. We are investing nearly £4 billion in skills over the course of this Parliament. We are increasing the national living wage, which will see the lowest paid in this country receive the biggest pay rise since the national living wage was introduced. That is a record that I am proud of.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

Last month a High Court judge ruled that the failure to include ESA and other legacy benefits in the £20 uplift to universal credit was discriminatory against disabled people. Many disabled people face higher energy costs and other living costs, which multiply the effect of the cost-of-living crisis for them. How are the Government going to ensure that disabled people can afford to live in this country?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness is absolutely right about the increase in living costs that will be faced by disabled people. That is why, as part of our energy support package worth £9 billion, we have provided council tax rebates worth £150 to help people with the cost of energy as well as a discretionary fund to local authorities so that those who will not benefit from the council tax rebates will also share in that support.

Investments: Environmental, Social and Governance Criteria

Debate between Baroness Penn and Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle

Wednesday 2nd March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, demand for sustainable finance is growing rapidly. Some 49% of UK-managed assets now integrate ESG factors, and there is strong demand from consumers and investors for such assets. The Government are committed to ensuring that this growing market is well regulated and that the UK is the best place in the world for sustainable finance. That is why the Government have taken world-leading action to green our financial system, safeguard consumer interests and prevent greenwashing.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her Answer. I know that she is aware of the recent article in the Financial Times, entitled “ESG: the next mis-selling scandal?” This suggested that there were strongly misleading claims being put on financial products labelled as green, sustainable, ESG, et cetera. Does the Minister agree that no product should be so labelled if it is not compliant with the Paris and, indeed, Glasgow climate agreements, international biodiversity treaties and the sustainable development goals? Given that report and many others, do the Government not need to act urgently to ensure that there is adequate regulation or legislation to make sure that people are actually getting what they believe they are putting their money into?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

The noble Baroness is absolutely right. That is why the UK is developing an economy-wide regime for ESG disclosure, focusing in the first instance on those requirements related to climate change. Alongside that, the FCA is creating a consumer-facing label, so that consumers seeking to invest in ESG products know what they are investing in and that it meets the high standards that they would expect.

Covid-19: Death Duties and Inheritance Tax

Debate between Baroness Penn and Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle

Thursday 24th June 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I am glad to hear the noble Lord’s support for fiscal responsibility and repairing the public finances. As I set out, a number of measures were taken at the Budget to do this. These included freezing the income tax personal allowance until April 2026; increasing the rate of corporation tax to 25% from April 2023; freezing the pensions lifetime allowance and annual exempt allowance; and measures to tackle tax avoidance, evasion and non-compliance, which will raise an additional £2.2 billion by 2025-26.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, given that a large proportion of most inheritances arises from property values, do not the current tax arrangements contribute to inequality not only between individuals, as the noble Baroness, Lady Bryan, said, but between regions? Given the Government’s levelling-up agenda, could they not use a wealth tax or inheritance taxes to increase that levelling up?

Medicines and Medical Devices Bill

Debate between Baroness Penn and Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle

Report stage & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords & Report: 1st sitting & Report: 1st sitting: House of Lords
Tuesday 12th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, when considering Amendment 7, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, I draw the attention of noble Lords to our earlier discussion on the government amendments to this clause, introducing the requirement that safeguarding public health is the overarching objective when making regulations. The clause sets out a number of important factors that the appropriate authority must have regard to, and it is important to note that this is by no means a closed list of factors to be taken into account when making regulatory changes. I recognise that the intention is to put this important issue at the forefront of our minds, and that the factors involved in environmental protection, while broader than the remit of this Bill, may indeed be relevant as something to have regard to—and in those situations, this will happen. Let me explain.

In Committee, the noble Baroness raised important points about tackling the causes of environmental damage and listening to relevant stakeholders. As she knows, the Bill now includes Clause 43, which states that a public consultation must be carried out before regulations are made. This would provide an appropriate platform for relevant stakeholders in the production, distribution and consumption of human medicines, including manufacturers, healthcare practitioners and patients—and the noble Baroness will surely think also of campaigners—to raise their concerns and provide suggestions regarding regulations, which may include factors involving environmental protection. We would all agree that considering the environmental impact of what we do is important, but the power in Clause 1 is restricted to amending and supplementing the law relating to human medicines.

However, as I have reassured the noble Baroness previously, that law does not stand in isolation. The regulations made under this Bill must be considered within the wider context of other existing legislation that makes provision for environmental protection and access to medicines and healthcare services. The collective picture of legislation across the statute book ensures that environmental concerns are taken seriously. It includes provisions around packaging, safe management of medicines waste and medicines disposal. An example is the Environmental Protection Act 1990, which makes provision for the safe management of waste. This Act, which must be complied with by community pharmacies, imposes a duty of care on any person who disposes of controlled waste to take all reasonable steps to ensure that it is not disposed of in a manner likely to cause pollution of the environment or harm to human health.

I also reassure the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, on that point with regard to the management of waste and the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, on the fact that the Government have made a clear commitment that, post Brexit, our environmental standards will not be reduced. As the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, pointed out, the upcoming environment Bill will be a further opportunity to debate many of those matters in detail.

On the question put by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, of why the environmental impact of veterinary medicines has been included in the Bill, whereas the environmental impact of human medicines is not specifically provided for, the situation with veterinary medicines is slightly different. The environmental safety aspects of the regulatory framework on veterinary medicines relate to their potential impact on the terrestrial and aquatic ecosystems and their flora and fauna—soil, micro-organisms, fungi, algae, plants, invertebrates, fish, et cetera—so veterinary medicines occupy a slightly different space in our regulatory framework. I also point out to her that animals receiving veterinary medicines form part of the human food supply chain, so that is also taken into account.

I hope that the noble Baroness has heard sufficient from me to be persuaded that, while the issue of environmental protection is of course vital, the law in this area is already well established and, in the light of this, that she will feel able to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP) [V]]

I thank the Minister for her answer and the noble Baroness, Lady Masham of Ilton, for her support for the amendment and her full reflections on the importance of antimicrobial resistance—something that we will be talking about a great deal in the coming years. The contribution of the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, was also hugely valuable, in that she complemented by looking at aspects that I had not taken up. She mentioned manufacturing not happening in an environmental vacuum, and in particular the issue of hormones such as oestrogen, and also focused on imported medicines and medical devices and their global impact—something that I talked about in Committee but had not talked about tonight.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, for his interest in and attention to what I said in Committee, and for his patience with the technology. I will take what he said as something of an expression of support for the intention behind this amendment.

I have two specific questions to press the Minister on further. She spoke about the processes of overseeing production and distribution, but she did not refer to, and was apparently not thinking about, issues around how research is regulated and how manufacturers are expected to look at the environmental impact of drugs when they are researching and making choices about which drugs to pursue. Secondly, the Minister said on veterinary medicines versus human medicines that it is there for veterinary medicines because of the impact on the terrestrial and aquatic ecosystems, the soils, et cetera. I go back to what the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, said about the impact of sewage. Human waste impacts very much on the ecosystems that the Minister acknowledged that veterinary medicines need to take into account.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

On the first point—considering environmental impacts in terms of research—obviously safety is one of the things primarily considered when looking at research on medicines. There is then separate provision in legislation for the safe disposal of any medicines that are not used. So we look at the safety of their use in humans and, through separate legislation, address the safe disposal of any medicines via that route.

That is also relevant to the second point on how human medicines can enter the ecosystem. I will write to the noble Baroness with further detail on that, but veterinary medicines are in a slightly different position, since we look at veterinary medicines for their impacts on animals but also have to think about their wider impact on the environment in terms of their position in the food chain. The safety standards on human medicines are much higher, because we look at their impact on patients taking them directly.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP) [V]]

I thank the Minister for her answer. I am aware this may not be entirely popular in the House, but I really feel this is an important issue the Government have not got to grips with. I am aware we have a long evening ahead of us, but none the less, I would like to test the opinion of the House.

Medicines and Medical Devices Bill

Debate between Baroness Penn and Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle

Committee stage & Committee: 6th sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 6th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 17th November 2020 Grand Committee

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP) [V]]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Chairman; I resisted the urge to leap in. My contribution, anyway, will be brief. I want to build on my remarks in the previous group and, in particular, to address Amendment 108 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Patel. I referred then to the article in the British Medical Journal about the medical-political complex. We have seen over the decades, again and again, in respect of medicines, pesticides and herbicides, situations where there has been growing concern about a particular chemical. Critics have come under tremendous pressure, including critics often from Governments—critics in official positions—from very large, powerful commercial interests to remain silent.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, asked how anyone could not speak out in a situation where they saw that there was a danger or a serious cause for concern. We have seen again and again, however, situations where people, including Ministers in Governments, have come under tremendous pressure. Does the Minister not think that an amendment such as that proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Patel, would protect the Government, the individual and the public if she or one of her successors were in a situation where there was grave cause for concern but also very powerful multinational company forces at play?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Patel, for his amendment, designed to ensure that the public are always warned about concerns relating to a medical device where there is a clear threat to public safety. The Government agree that sharing information with the public—as well as the healthcare system—is important. Safety information is provided already to relevant special interest groups and through social media channels to ensure that messages are accessible and reach those affected who need to be aware or take action. This can include patients, healthcare professionals and members of the public. For example, MHRA recently urged users of Safe and Sound Infrared Ear Thermometers to check their product code and lot number due to a voluntary recall of specific lots because of a two-degree temperature overreading fault. This is a safety concern for members of the public who are monitoring their temperature, particularly in view of the pandemic. However, noble Lords are correct that it is critical that we do more to improve transparency and share more safety information to support patient safety. This has been made even more apparent in the findings of the report by my noble friend Lady Cumberlege.

Clause 35, along with Clause 13(1)(h)(iii), is designed to ensure that in future we can share information with key parts of the healthcare system, academia and the public in a considered and effective way. Under the current medical device legislation, MHRA does not have a clear legal basis to report all incidents involving medical devices occurring in the UK. By contrast, this has been common practice in the USA, via the FDA’s MAUDE database, and in Australia, via its DAEN database. Medicines legislation already enables MHRA to provide its interactive drug analysis prints, or iDAPs. It is therefore right that, via the information-sharing powers in this Bill, we are able to disclose in an appropriate manner all medical-device serious incidents. This will provide greatly improved transparency about the safety of medical devices in the UK.

Amendment 108 would place a legal requirement on the MHRA to disclose information to the public to warn them about concerns relating to a medical device where a clear threat to public safety had been determined. The amendment is unnecessary, as the MHRA would always share safety information with the public where it was necessary to do so. However, issuing warnings and safety information to the public needs careful management, a good understanding of the situation, full verification of the data and consideration of wider complexities. There is a high risk that mandating the disclosure of clear threats to public safety would commit MHRA to regular disproportionate direct communication to the public about safety issues that the public cannot act on.

The great majority of MHRA’s medical device safety alerts require healthcare workers, not members of the public, to take action to remove a public health threat. For example, MHRA’s national patient safety alert of 23 September 2020, addressing a clear threat to public health, instructed all hospital trusts and other healthcare providers on actions to be taken to avoid potential unexpected shutdown, leading to a complete loss of ventilation, when using the Philips Respironics V60 ventilator. Such messages should not be targeted and promoted to the public but should be made available passively to the public; for example, via access to a website. Otherwise, this would likely create unwarranted anxiety in the public about safety issues that they themselves could address because they required the intervention and clinical support of healthcare professionals.

Medicines and Medical Devices Bill

Debate between Baroness Penn and Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle

Committee stage & Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 26th October 2020 Grand Committee

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, is a tireless champion of matters environmental and I am at one with her in wanting to consider sustainability in all that we do. However, I do not think these amendments are necessary and they are not strictly within the realms of regulating medicines and medical devices, which is what the Bill seeks to deal with.

Legislation is already on the statute book regarding the impact on the environment more broadly. In fact, I suggest that the Bill is part of a wider legislative canvas that delivers what the noble Baroness seeks reassurance on. Within that wider canvas is legislation on packaging waste, which is enforced by the Environment Agency in England. That imposes obligations on packaging producers to seek to reduce the amount of packaging produced, reduce the amount of waste going to landfill and increase the amount of packaging waste that is recycled. I will pick up her point on the production of medical devices being within this principle of producers being responsible for manufacturing waste and write to her on it.

Turning to elsewhere on the canvas, I say that there is also legislation on the statute book to address the environmental impact of producing and disposing of manufactured goods such as medical devices. This includes the Waste Electrical and Electronic Equipment Regulations 2013, which require the recycling of certain types of electrical equipment, including some types of medical devices. I hope that provides the noble Baroness with reassurance that these regulations are part of a wider whole.

The noble Baroness, and the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, also raised the importance of the appropriate use of reusable medical devices, which is essential to the provision of health services, with many medical devices being reusable in some form. I think we all agree that it is vital to ensure that decontamination of those devices is possible and, where it is, that it is efficient, effective and safe for patients to reuse. I assure the noble Baronesses that, under Clause 13, we would have the power to make provisions specifying that reusable medical devices must be designed and manufactured in such a way as to facilitate decontamination.

Amendment 25 deals with the important issue of medicines waste and medicine disposal, also touched on by the noble Baronesses, Lady Barker and Lady Wheeler. The environmental impacts of these are taken seriously, but dealt with by other legislation. For example, the Environmental Protection Act 1990 makes provision for the safe management of waste. The Act imposes a duty of care on any person who disposes of controlled waste to take all reasonable steps to ensure that it is not disposed of in a manner likely to cause pollution of the environment or harm to human health. Community pharmacies must comply with this legislation, and the NHS community pharmacy contractual framework makes specific provision for pharmacies in England to act as collection points for the public’s unwanted medicines. These returned medicines are then stored securely by pharmacies until they are collected for safe disposal.

I understand that the noble Baroness and others may also want to know what we are doing to reduce waste medicines in the first place. Medicines optimisation is a key workstream within NHS England’s medicines value programme; it aims to ensure that the right patients get the right choice of medicine at the right time. Through focusing on patients and their experiences, the goal is to help patients to improve their outcomes, take their medicines as intended, avoid taking unnecessary medicines, reduce wastage of medicines, and improve medicines safety.

The Secretary of State for Health and Social Care has asked Dr Keith Ridge, the chief pharmaceutical officer for England, to carry out a review of overprescribing in the NHS. Following a pause due to the Covid-19 pandemic, the review is due to report later this year. This work is looking at reducing inappropriate prescribing with a particular focus on the role of digital technologies, research, culture change and social prescribing, repeat prescribing, and transfer of care. The report will provide recommendations to reduce overprescribing, which will help to reduce medicines wastage.

Amendment 41, proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, highlights the serious and growing global problem of antimicrobial resistance, or AMR. It has been placed on the National Risk Register of Civil Emergencies as a “longer term trend” likely to change the overall risk landscape for the UK over the coming decades. Already it is estimated to cause more than 700,000 deaths each year globally. That figure is predicted to rise to 10 million, alongside a cumulative cost of $100 trillion by 2050 if no action is taken. She will be aware that in January last year the Government set out the UK’s vision to contain and control AMR by 2040. This vision is supported by a five-year national action plan that includes comprehensive One Health action across the spectrum of human and animal health, agriculture, the environment and food.

While recognising the serious threat of AMR, I respectfully suggest that this amendment, specifically in the context of a clinical trial, is not necessary. Clinical trials of medicines, including those of antimicrobials or antibiotics, have strict requirements for reporting adverse events and for continuous monitoring of the benefits of the medicine under investigation versus the risks, as set out in the Medicines for Human Use (Clinical Trials) Regulations 2004 and associated good clinical practice guidance. Development of AMR during a clinical trial may manifest as an adverse event or as a lack of efficacy to the medicine being investigated. In either case, the investigators and trial sponsor have obligations to take action to protect the safety of the trial participant. This action might include taking an urgent safety measure, amending the trial protocol or terminating the trial early. These actions would require notification to the medicines regulator—the MHRA—and a research ethics committee. Development of AMR during a trial would also be expected to be transparent via the publication of the results of that trial.

The Health Protection (Notification) Regulations 2010 places a legal duty on the operator of a diagnostic laboratory to notify Public Health England of the identification of specified causative agents in a human sample within seven days. On 1 October, those regulations were updated to require diagnostic laboratories to report the results of any antimicrobial susceptibility test results and any resistance mechanism identified in respect of a sample. I hope that provides reassurance of the Government’s focus, not just to maintain high levels of surveillance of rates of AMR but to successfully contain and control its spread for future years. Given the existing provisions and ongoing work in the department, I hope I have reassured the noble Baroness that additional powers in this regard are unnecessary and she now feels able to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP) [V]]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, for adding to the outline that I provided on the importance of the greenhouse gas emissions of the NHS and bringing in the issue of the use of water, which is becoming an increasingly rare resource in the UK. I thank her for providing her personal account of the frustrations of individuals who want not to waste NHS resources, based on her own experience.

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, for focusing on plastic waste. I shall restrain myself from commenting on the broader points of this issue, but thank her for highlighting the particular importance of illegal exports of medical waste and the big issues around Covid-19 and the waste unavoidably being generated at this point, as she said.

Coming to the Minister’s response, at the start there was a suggestion that this was a provision to go somewhere else—that all these issues could be in the Environment Bill or packaging regulations, et cetera. I do not accept that. If we take a systems-thinking sustainable development goals approach, then we have to make sure that all these issues are in every piece of legislation. Everything has to be considered as a whole. Rather than saying “We’ll deal with it somewhere else”, given the issues of legislation being delayed—we do not know when the legislation that we have not yet seen will arrive—it needs to be built into every element of our thinking on this fragile, much-abused planet.

Coming to some specifics, the Minister commented on current arrangements for recycling of devices. I note that there was a disturbing report out this morning through the waste industry about the number of fires occurring in waste management facilities as a result of the inappropriate disposal of batteries. I do not know how many of those involved medical devices, but I would think it highly likely that, in some cases, they would be. There is clearly a real problem with our current disposal systems. The Minister referred to Clause 13 dealing with the contamination issues. I will take that back to my technical advisers. I was pleased with her comments about the efforts on medicines optimisation. If we think about this in the context of a waste period more broadly, we know that “reduce” is always the best option.

I am also pleased with the overall tenor of this debate and the focus that we have seen on antimicrobial resistance. If we think back—gosh, it is two Prime Ministers back now—David Cameron gave a major speech on antimicrobial resistance and we have seen growing awareness of this issue. I am pleased that this debate has been an opportunity to highlight it and focus on the need for more action. For the moment, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment, but I reserve the possibility of further consultation, and potentially bringing it and my other amendments back in this or a different form.

Covid-19: Economy

Debate between Baroness Penn and Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle

Thursday 30th April 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, the Covid-19 pandemic is the biggest threat this country has faced in decades and we know that people are worrying about their livelihoods, as well as their health. That is why the Government have announced unprecedented support for public services, workers and businesses. These measures include, but are not limited to, £14 billion for public services, the Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme and guaranteed loans for businesses that will help protect them against the emergency and ensure that our economy recovers quickly.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her Answer. I quote from a Conservative Party press release of 16 September 2019:

“Strong … economic growth means more money for our public services.”


Our economic management has relied on growth for employment, pensions and health. We have an expectation of a very large fall in GDP as a result of coronavirus, and years of recovery. Will the Government be making plans along the lines of the German Government’s 2018 report on the precautionary post-growth approach?

[Baroness Penn]

The Government are putting in place measures to respond to this crisis to protect against the economic harm that is being done now so that we can bounce back quickly. That is exactly why we have put in place schemes such as the job retention scheme, so that we can protect people while we have to have social distancing measures in place and ensure that the economy bounces back afterwards.