European Union Referendum Bill

Baroness O'Cathain Excerpts

Monday 14th December 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Morgan of Ely]

Of course we understand that the other House has spoken on this issue, but it has also invoked financial privilege. I am trying to address the issue of costs in this amendment. The problem is that there is no threshold—or we do not know what it is. What does that mean for the ability of this House to engage at all, in any way, with the Representation of the People Act?

Perhaps I may continue. The people we need to focus on are those who will attain the age of 16, the new age of voting in the referendum in the forthcoming year. Let me emphasise, in response to the comments of the Electoral Commission—I shall come to the point made by the noble Lord—that our amendment does not preclude electoral registration officers from chasing up 16 and 17 year-olds and it does not stop them using all available methods to identify and encourage registration. The Association of Electoral Administrators does not think it would be difficult to make changes to the electoral registration service. A relatively simple—and, I emphasise, extremely cheap—way of registering young people would be writing directly to schools to ask for help in sending out emails with the registration form attached, as is currently done with university students. I do not know of many, if any, secondary schools that do not provide their pupils with a school email address. The costs of registration would therefore be absolutely minimal.

Nor would this be a tremendous increase in work for electoral registration officers. If, as has been suggested, we are talking about an additional 1.5 million voters, given that there are 380 electoral registration officers—one for each relevant local authority—we are talking about each ERO registering on average only an additional 4,000 voters, which is not an enormous new burden. The organisation Bite the Ballot is co-ordinating a national voter registration drive which aims to inspire hundreds of thousands of 15 to 24 year-olds to register this February. It will include a national network of schools, colleges, sixth-form teachers, school leavers, student unions, youth clubs and charities, so this is being done anyway at no additional cost. The Electoral Commission itself has noted that EROs should be working with schools and colleges in their area because this is a key activity that we need and expect all EROs to explore. We are asking EROs to do only what they are expected to do anyway.

I turn now to the issue that seems to be vexing the Government: that this is not the right place to make such a change and that it should be debated seriously as part of a wider debate on franchise. We are happy that the Government agree that there is a need for a wider debate on franchise, and it would be useful to have a timetable for such a debate. Can the Minister give me a concrete answer to that specific question? The Government say that this should not be done in a piecemeal way. We on the Labour Benches believe that there should be a comprehensive constitutional convention to address this and other issues relating to our democracy. But I was under the impression that the Government enjoy piecemeal change. It was this Government who gave permission to 16 and 17 year-olds to vote in the Scottish referendum campaign. It was this Government who allowed the Scottish Parliament to determine whether 16 and 17 year-olds should be able to vote in its own election, and it was this Government who allowed the Welsh Assembly to determine for itself whether 16 and 17 year-olds should be allowed to vote.

[Baroness O'Cathain (Con)]

It was not this Government who did that; it was the coalition Government.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Baroness O'Cathain]

Noble Lords may laugh. But perhaps I may remind the noble Baroness that we are on very tricky ground. We are playing with the constitution and with the fact that we are not supposed to check on financial privilege. All this stuff we are getting now is of no relevance to the Motion.

European Union Referendum Bill

Baroness O'Cathain Excerpts

Wednesday 18th November 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Morgan of Ely]

I am absolutely not making light of it. In fact, I have spoken directly to electoral registration officers within some of the counties where this would have to be done. They recognise that an increase in resource would be needed, but it is not impossible to do. We know where these people are and we would have their names, so the process of identifying them would not be difficult. It would be different from, for example, trying to find British citizens in the EU who are over the age of 15. That would be a difficult process. This is not a difficult process—we know exactly where these people are.

[Baroness O'Cathain (Con)]

Will the noble Baroness please tell me how many people this affected at the time of the Scottish referendum? How many millions, thousands or hundreds were there? How does that compare with the 1.5 million who would have to be included this time?

[Baroness Morgan of Ely]

It was not millions in Scotland —there is no question about that—it was thousands, and they were able to do it in the timeframe that they were given. It is important for us to understand that it is possible to do this. We know where these people are. The electoral registration officials have said that this is a possibility, and we should accept their say.

[Baroness O'Cathain]

With the leave of the House, may I pursue this question? The noble Baroness said it was probably thousands. But how many thousands? Was it 99,000, 3,000 or 5,000? I just want to get this straight in my mind.

[Baroness Morgan of Ely]

It was proportionately exactly the same as it would be in Britain. There are about 5 million Scottish voters and in the UK there are 60 million voters. The noble Baroness is probably better at maths than I am, but if we know that it is 1.5 million for the UK then we can work out what that would be as a percentage of the 5 million voters in Scotland.

Lords Spiritual (Women) Bill

Baroness O'Cathain Excerpts

Thursday 12th February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I am sure that we are all extremely sorry that the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, is not able to take part in this debate, because I am sure that she would have added enormously to it.

I speak with a degree of diffidence. As I made plain when we debated the ordination of women bishops Measure just before Christmas, I think it was, I am a member of what is loosely called the traditional integrity within the church; and I am one of those who takes some comfort from the fact that the Catholic Church in general, embracing the Roman Catholic and the Orthodox Church, does take that traditional line. But I fully accept, as I made plain then, that the Church of England has, by a large majority—not an overwhelming but a very large majority—decided that it is right to have women bishops. There is a significant minority, and I stress it is a minority, within the Church of England which takes a different line. I think it behoves all of us to be gracious and to accept the differences between us, but that there is a unity that unites us which is far deeper than any superficial difference. That is why I was so glad that we had those scenes at the consecration of the first woman bishop, the Bishop of Stockport, and also that the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of York behaved with such appreciative sensitivity both at the consecration of Libby Lane and at the consecration of the Bishop of Burnley. It was also very good to see those two bishops embrace each other in Christian love and charity and mutual understanding.

I completely accept that this is a decision that has been made, first of all, in the church, and particularly in the House of Bishops. I salute my very good friend the Bishop of Lincoln for his extremely magnanimous statement. When he does come to this House, he will add significantly to the breadth and quality of our debates, and he will indeed be a splendid spokesman for greater Lincolnshire, which, as he himself whimsically remarked, is not overrepresented in your Lordships’ House. He has very generously made the statement that he has, quoted today by the most reverend Primate in his very cogent and admirable speech.

I will make three points that it is important for us to bear in mind. First, we are endorsing a measure of positive discrimination. There may be very good reasons for that, but no one can deny that that is what we are doing in approving the Bill.

Secondly, we have to bear in mind that very few men attain the rank of diocesan bishop within 20 years of ordination, and it is only just over 20 years since women were ordained priests. We should also bear in mind that most bishops—the most reverend Primate the Archbishop is a notable exception—have a period as a suffragan bishop before they take on the responsibilities of a diocese. Therefore, to have a number of women bishops appointed in the near future is entirely right and proper in view of the line the Church of England has taken, and I utterly and completely accept that. However, it is also right that a number of them should be appointed—as has the right reverend Libby Lane—to suffragan bishoprics.

I now come to my final point. Of course I look forward to the day when the serried ranks, of which we have a large number today—the collective noun cannot be “a Bench” as we have three Benches of Bishops—are augmented by women bishops. However, it is important that there is total equality among bishops. That was repeated in debates in Synod and in this place and, therefore, if there is to be total equality, we have to recognise that a woman becoming a diocesan bishop will, as a bishop said to me not very long ago, be confronted with a wholly different set of challenges that are not faced by a priest, an archdeacon, a dean or any other of the eminent positions within the Church of England that women honourably, and in many cases extremely successfully, fill at the moment but with a whole range of new challenges. I put it to your Lordships that to add to those responsibilities the responsibility of being a national figure in your Lordships’ House will be a significant extra challenge for someone who, by very definition, cannot have been ordained for more than 20 years.

I have no intention of opposing the Bill; I am merely putting forward points that the House, which is a debating Chamber, should properly address. We must recognise that those women, as they come, will need from among those of us who are members of the Anglican Church our prayers and from all of us in this House our welcome and our understanding. Inevitably, they will come in for criticism that they are spending too much time here and not enough time in the diocese, or the other way round. We have to bear those points in mind as we pass the Bill—as I believe and hope we will.

[Baroness O'Cathain (Con)]

I hope that we are not going to start saying that it will be much more difficult for a woman to become a bishop than it was for a woman to get a senior position in the Army or the Air Force, or indeed in business. I was the first woman on many boards I sat on, and of course I felt nervous, but that was not because I was a woman. I just thought, “This is a new experience”. Anybody coming into this House, even a man, will find it hard. I can see it—they wobble. Every man I have spoken to about his maiden speech said it was the worst experience in his life. They will not find it more difficult because they are a member of the church.

[Lord Cormack]

No, but a first is a first. I speak as someone who voted for the first woman leader of my party and who rejoiced in her success as Prime Minister, as well as someone who rejoiced in the success of the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, as one of the most eminent Speakers that the other place has ever had. Oh, she is here! I am delighted that she heard that. Nevertheless, it is important that we recognise some of the points that I made. As I said, this is a debating Chamber and, when there are reservations, it is incumbent on those who have them to voice them—I hope, graciously, but to voice them.

Assisted Dying Bill [HL]

Baroness O'Cathain Excerpts

Friday 16th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Mawson]

My Lords, the words we use are important, as is how the general public hear the words we use, and I think that these matters are far from clear in the country. I am not convinced that the balance has been given and the counterarguments shared. In this matter, I think that what I have to say is important.

Many of us in the Chamber have been involved in campaigns over the years, and we know how easily experienced politicians can collude, through their networks of relationships in the media, with campaigning journalists who love a nice story and funders, and put an act together. Good luck to them, I say. However, on an issue as important as this, this activity needs to be seen for what it is. Good objective presentation must be the order of the day if people are to be able to make informed choices.

[Baroness O’Cathain (Con)]

I am very grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. This is such an important day and we are, in effect, time-limited. We cannot really start the day by having Second Reading speeches.

[Noble Lords]

Hear, hear.

Assisted Dying Bill [HL]

Baroness O'Cathain Excerpts

Friday 18th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness O'Cathain (Con)]

My Lords, I believe that a great strength of this House whenever we look at a Bill—we have looked at a lot of them—is that we seem to have a mental checklist of things that we should always take into consideration; an impact statement, in effect. One of the things we always take into consideration is the effect of the Bill, whatever its subject or object, on the population as a whole, particularly on the vulnerable and on those who do not really have the capacity to decide what is the right way of doing things. In my view, this proposed legislation turns that on its head. In effect, there is a grave danger that if the Bill were to be enacted, the vulnerable would be the most negatively affected. We are talking about the vulnerable as if they are the subject and object of the Bill, but we are not going through the effect on individuals.

We know this from the huge number of letters we have received and, indeed, from our own personal experience. Time and again we are moved by these letters, but the thing that shrieks at me from them is whether anybody has done anything about depression. In fact, I do not think depression has been mentioned at all in the debate so far. I have personal experience, both from my own very close personal relationship and from my best friend. Both cases were desperately difficult deaths over the long term—years and months. In both cases, when the victims, so to speak, were actually treated with anti-depressants and given a regime aimed at lifting their hopes, they became much more amenable to friendship, to discussing life and to planning for reuniting with their maker in a way that would not have been possible if they had had this option, three or four months earlier, to say, “I want to end my life”.

Time and again I have read of the serious deep anxiety that many have of the prospect of being a burden. I am sure most of us feel that—I feel that. That is fine, up to a point, but what we have to do is instil a complete change in our attitude to the elderly in terms of realising that they can still, even at the end of their lives, teach us a lot and help us with many things which we will use in the future. What about the effects of assisted dying on those who administer the means, whatever they are, of moving these people on? We had a moving speech from the noble Lord, Lord MacKenzie of Culkein. So far as I could gather, his point was that it is all right for us who do not have to do the deed, but what about the people who do and how long does it stay in their memory?

Polls have already been referred to and, I am sure, will be again. We have had so many polls that we are befuddled. The one result of polls of which I am certain is that people constantly change their mind—even the Guardian today has changed its mind. What really bothers me, however, is that, behind the headline figures, the polls show a shocking apathy. I think that, when people are polled, they do not think of the depth of the meaning behind the question. The ComRes poll that appeared yesterday gave the most disturbing result that 47% of supporters of the Bill would still support it even if it resulted in people being pressured into ending their lives early so as not to be a burden. Are we really sure that this is what this country believes?

Let us not forget that the World Health Assembly adopted a ground-breaking resolution on palliative care on 23 May this year. Nowhere was assisted suicide—or its euphemism, assisted dying—mentioned. Instead, the need for greater palliative care and the importance of hospices in end-of-life care were resoundingly echoed by elected health experts from around the world. Not for the first time in your Lordships’ House, I wholly endorse that hope.

Assisted Suicide

Baroness O'Cathain Excerpts

Wednesday 5th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness O'Cathain (Con)]

My Lords, the DPP guidelines published in 2010 were hailed as a victory by the assisted dying lobby. These guidelines made it clear that encouraging or assisting the suicide of another is a criminal offence. Since then that lobby has subjected the policy to all kinds of criticisms. While trying to look at the criticisms dispassionately, I fear that I have come to the conclusion that those in favour of assisted dying saw the policy as a stepping stone to a law licensing assisted suicide.

The guidelines spell out that every case has to be considered in the round and on its own merits. I fear that the euthanasia advocates want to go further than that and seek to fetter this discretion of prosecutors. It seems to me that ultimately it wants a fundamental shift in the law, a shift that would move us away from deterrence and protection. I am increasingly concerned that we may be drifting into a position of seeing suicide in terms of a happy release from suffering and regarding assisted suicide as invariably altruistic.

I just wish that all could see how this would cause uncertainly, fear and jeopardy to great numbers of vulnerable people. The Royal College of General Practitioners recently consulted on this and 77% of GPs opposed changing the law, saying that it would be,

“detrimental to the doctor-patient relationship”,

and could result in patients being coerced into a decision to die. I wish that we would stop talking about killing those diagnosed with terminal illnesses. Sometimes those illnesses are not terminal. We should talk instead about increasing the availability of palliative care and improving the treatment of depression, which would help us all to live our declining years and end of life with dignity, love and care.

Inheritance (Cohabitants) Bill [HL]

Baroness O'Cathain Excerpts

Friday 19th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness O'Cathain]

My Lords, I oppose the Bill because I believe in the importance of marriage. Before continuing, I have to say that we have had very thoughtful contributions from all speakers. Most have been clear, but there have been some legal situations that I, as a non-legal person, cannot really put my head round. I will, however, make some conclusions at the end of my speech. My first concern is that the Bill would undermine the special place of marriage in our society. Marriage is already under sustained attack from our Government, as shown by the plans for the redefinition of marriage currently being pushed forward. It would be further devalued by the Bill.

In his proposals, my noble friend Lord Lester effectively equates marriage and cohabitation in law. Marriage and cohabitation are not, and should not be, regarded as equivalent. Marriage is defined by law as a life-long, exclusive commitment; a commitment publicly made by both husband and wife from the outset. In stark contrast, cohabitation is not a commitment. It is a transient relationship whose defining characteristic is that the man and woman have chosen not to marry, or to have a life-long commitment.

Studies have consistently shown that there are substantial differences in the stability of the relationship and the impact on children between married couples and those who cohabit. The 2000 British Household Panel survey involving 10,000 adults concluded that,

“cohabiting unions last only a short time before being converted into marriage or dissolving: their median length is about two years”.

These findings were later endorsed by the Scottish Government in Family Matters: Improving Family Law in Scotland in 2004. According to the Centre for Social Justice, fewer than 10% of married couples split up by the time of their child’s fifth birthday, compared to 33% for cohabiting couples. The centre also pointed out that 97% of couples who stay together until their children reach adulthood are married.

By equating the rights of married couples and those who cohabit, we are effectively saying that they are equal. I cannot understand why, in the name of equality, we constantly seek to iron out fundamental distinctions between relationships. Marriage is not a private arrangement between a man and woman: it brings together not just two people, but two families. In bringing together families, marriages build the communities on which everyday life is based. Married families form the bedrock of local communities and assist in tackling social problems such as loneliness and isolation which are so widespread. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Manchester referred to many more positive values brought to society by marriage.

We should therefore promote and protect marriage. The Bill typifies a narrow, blinkered approach which, while purporting to help individuals, actually serves to harm everyone by undermining the cornerstone of society. To give cohabitants the same legal protection as that which married couples receive at the death of one spouse fosters the impression that it does not matter whether you marry or cohabit. In giving cohabiting partners and married couples the same legal safeguards, public perception of marriage will be further weakened. In effect, it would send the message that commitment is of no consequence. Is that what we really want to do?

My second concern is that the Bill appears to be unnecessary. Cohabiting couples anxious about what should happen when one of them dies have two perfectly viable options open to them: they can get married, thereby receiving the benefits and protections currently provided, or they can plan carefully by making wills to ensure that provision is made for their cohabiting partner upon death. Here, we really ought to do something to ensure that every adult makes a will. So many people die intestate. That is great for lawyers but not for family members, such as children, husbands and cohabiting parties. I know of many supposedly intelligent people who will not even bother making a will. They say, “I am only 50; I am going to last to the age of 86”, or whatever. It is ridiculous. Why do we not make a bigger point of that?

In listening to the debate, one clear issue has come to the fore—namely, ignorance, as my noble friend Lord Lester called it, that there is no such thing as automatic provision on death to the surviving cohabitant. In other words, there is no such thing in legal rights as a common-law wife or husband. It was only relatively recently, within the last 10 years or so, that I realised that there were no legal rights there. There is a widespread perception that there is such a thing as a common-law wife or husband. That there is not should be stated time and again until there is universal knowledge of the situation—although the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, thinks that the belief is pretty universal. She shocked us with those quotes. I wholly support the comments of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Manchester on the issue.

As an aside—the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, referred to it but my noble friend Lord Lester’s Bill does not make this point—married couples have the benefit of inheritance tax relief whereas cohabiting couples do not. Currently, the taxation system recognises those who have made a commitment. Are we to downgrade commitment? The inheritance rights afforded to married couples are available to cohabiting couples—they have just rejected them by not getting married. There is clear evidence, as noted by the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, that many cohabiting couples do not want these rights. They have chosen not to marry because they do not want the legal ties involved. The Bill may be presented as not much more than a tidying-up exercise. It is a lot more than that and should be opposed in principle.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Baroness O'Cathain Excerpts

Tuesday 24th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bach]

I will do my best.

[Baroness O'Cathain]

Perhaps I could say to the Minister that all my life I have lived by the statement that a man or woman who does not make a mistake does not make anything.

[Lord Bach]

That is absolutely right. I am just asking the Minister not to make a mistake on this issue; he should learn from my experience. Perhaps things were not quite as bad as I made out, but we should have spotted this as it shines out. It is not as though very high-cost cases did not come across my desk; my goodness, they did all the time.

The Minister will know that the majority of legal aid is spent on criminal cases. Over the years—although it shifted a bit as we made an effort at least to maintain what was spent on certain types of civil legal aid—the balance has been wrong. Criminal legal aid has taken more than 50 per cent of the budget and civil legal aid has been allowed to decline over a number of years. However, enough is enough as far as that is concerned. I point out to the Minister that the amount of social welfare law that has been taken out of the scope of legal aid equates to around £60 million. I do not need to repeat the figures that were mentioned by both noble Lords who spoke in this debate. The £60 million is dwarfed by the amount that it would be possible for the Government to get if they made wealthy defendants pay their legal fees.

When faced with an obstacle such as this, Governments sometimes become totally irrational and stick to their line, which can be completely hopeless and can sometimes not make sense at all. Common sense loses out completely. “No-brainer” is exactly the right word. The Government are faced with having to find money; there is a lot of heartfelt opposition to the idea that social welfare law, for example, should be taken out of scope; and there is a great deal of doubt about whether doing so will save any money at all—which in my view is the clinching argument. Here is a chance for the Government to take advantage of a sensible step. They have the power to do it and will have our support if they do. I very much hope that the noble Lord will at least consider carefully the very powerful representations made tonight in Committee.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Baroness O'Cathain Excerpts

Wednesday 9th February 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

My Lords, I agree with every word that the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, said. The coalition appears to have invented a new-fangled constitutional doctrine: that the strength of the parties in the House of Lords ought to reflect the electoral support that they obtained at the last general election. It may be that the noble Lord, Lord McNally, will indeed expound to us that doctrine. I do not know that but I would certainly be most grateful if the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, when he comes to his concluding remarks, would let us know what his own opinion of that doctrine is.

[Baroness O'Cathain]

First, I support my noble friend Lord Forsyth on the basis of the reputation of this House, which will be eroded significantly if we carry on like this. Secondly, it is very difficult to do the proper job that those of us who work in Committees have to do here when we find ourselves without even a place to sit, if we come in late to some of the debates here in the House. It is making the working conditions very difficult indeed. Can my noble friends in the Government give us some assurance that this will be looked at seriously, because we cannot go on like this? If we have the same number of Peers coming in over the next few months as we have had over the last few, it would make the whole place intolerable. Again, I support my noble friend in saying that there is no suggestion that the people coming in here will not do the work, but it will just be impossible to get the work done.

[Lord Low of Dalston]

From the Cross Benches, I must say that that was an absolutely marvellous speech from the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth. Most ingeniously, he managed to give us a wonderful warm-up for the debates that we shall no doubt have about the reform of this House. However, at this stage of the Bill, on which we have laboured for so many hours, I suggest that it might not be a good idea to go too much further into that debate. At one and the same time, he has not only done that but has also given us a wonderful valedictory on the debates we have had. He pointed to a number of factors that he rightly suggested we would do well to reflect on. The first was the great increase in the number of Members of this place, but I will not elaborate on what he said about all the disadvantages that that can entail. In a very even-handed and fair-minded way, he made some comments about what his side of the House would do well to reflect on: namely, the flexibility with which they have handled the many issues that have been raised in this debate. He also suggested that the brinkmanship, which some of us may have felt has been practised on the other side, may have also gone too far and affected the reputation and regard in which this House is held.

The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, has therefore at a stroke pointed to a number of factors that, unless we row back from the place that we have got to, could well contaminate the debates which we are bound to have about the future shape and composition of this House. We would do very well to heed his words and, as we come to the end of these proceedings, to reflect on all the points that he has brought to our attention and perhaps row back a bit from the place that we have got to at the end of this Bill.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton]

My Lords, I believe that this is a significant amendment and that the speech that the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, made in introducing it impressed the House with its quality and seriousness. He made a number of points that obviously resonated around the Chamber. I support the amendment. With respect to the noble Lord, Lord Low, I do not agree that it is not appropriate for this Bill. It is appropriate because of the underlying principles that have been advanced by the Government in relation to why the House of Commons is going to be reduced.

The anxiety that now exists throughout this House is that no regard is being shown to the good workings of the House in the context of the people who are coming here. I make it absolutely clear that every single one of the people who have come has the highest possible quality and regard. This has nothing to do with the quality of the people who have come who are all much admired and many of whom have made a real contribution to the House. It is to do with the good working of the House. If we are having a reduction in the size of the House of Commons in order to make it work well, at the same time, we should not have an increase in the size of the House of Lords that might, for the sorts of reasons referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady O’Cathain, make its workings become more difficult. In those circumstances, we support this amendment.

It is important to look briefly at the position of the Government. They justify the reduction in the number of MPs in part by the costs they incur. Mr Nicholas Clegg, the Deputy Prime Minister, stated during the Second Reading in the other place that:

“We settled on 600 MPs, a relatively modest cut in House numbers of just less than 8%, because it saves money—about £12 million each year”.—[Official Report, Commons, 6/9/10; col. 39.]

I am not persuaded that cutting the size of the other place is necessarily wise; nor am I persuaded that the real way to judge whether we should cut the number of MPs is how much they cost; nor am I necessarily persuaded that that is the real motivation. But accepting all those things at face value, it is worth just considering what the cost has been of increasing the size of the House of Lords. Since the general election, the Prime Minister has appointed 116 new Peers. On the basis of an Answer given by the Chairman of Committees in 2009, each Peer costs £168,000 per year. That totals £19,656,000. According to the House Library, the Prime Minister is appointing—

[Baroness O'Cathain]

That figure surely includes items such as building works, security and maintenance. The fact that we are operating in this amazing building should not be added on to the cost of Peers. In any business, you would not do that.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton]

I am using the figures that the noble Lord, Lord Brabazon of Tara, gave. The noble Baroness may well be right that looking at those figures again, we could take other and better figures, but these are the only figures we have at the moment because I understand that the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, was asked and refused to answer.

According to the House Library, the Prime Minister is appointing new Peers at a rate well in excess of any of his recent predecessors. The number of new Peers appointed in the first year by Mr Callaghan was 19; by the noble Baroness, Lady Thatcher, it was 18; by Sir John Major it was 25; by Mr Blair it was 38; and by Mr Brown it was 16. I remind the House that the number appointed by the current Prime Minister before the end of his first year is 116. That is a remarkable trend.