Building Safety Bill

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 28th February 2022 Grand Committee

[Lord Best (CB)]

My Lords, this group should not detain us too long, for three reasons. First, the group has only one amendment, this one. Secondly, the issue here is not of the same complexity or magnitude as the all-important matters that the Committee discussed last Thursday. Thirdly, I think that the Minister will not take too long to accept it. Amendment 45, in my name and the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, concerns the impact of the Bill on the management of leasehold property, in particular the management by the leaseholders who live there.

The amendment has the backing of leaseholders and of bodies representing those managing leasehold flats, the Institute of Residential Property Managers and the Association of Residential Managing Agents. I declare an interest as chair of the Government’s regulation of property agents—RoPA—working group, whose 2019 report provides insights into the arrangements for managing blocks of residential apartments. Amendment 45 seeks to prevent the Bill from creating a major problem where residents of blocks of flats have responsibility themselves for the collective management of their homes. It covers the residents management companies, where the developer has handed over ongoing management to the leaseholders, and the right to manage companies, where residents have exercised their right to take control under the Commonhold and Leasehold Reform Act 2002, on which, incidentally, I gave my maiden speech 20 years ago.

These resident-controlled companies will have a board of unpaid volunteer directors. The directors will sometimes decide to employ managing agents to carry out the usual management and maintenance tasks, but the legal responsibilities for their company’s actions will remain with the directors. The Bill as it stands places a new layer of responsibility on these resident directors: they must, together, assume the role of the accountable person or principal accountable person responsible for building safety. This makes each individual director personally liable if things go wrong. They may engage expert help, but they cannot shed their accountable person status and the full liability remains with them.

The directors will now have to identify safety hazards, decide on the remedies and procure the necessary works. There are plenty of opportunities for mistakes and the new building safety regulator could discipline them, fire them or fine them, ruining their personal reputations. Fellow residents could sue them for mismanagement or misjudgment. Indeed, under Clause 131, if residents do not feel that the residents management company has done enough to recover money from third parties, they can take them to court.

The entirely predictable but unintended consequence of placing this serious new burden on resident directors is surely that no one will volunteer for the role. Already it is often a hard job to recruit and retain willing volunteers, who must not only give up their time but risk falling out with neighbours when taking decisions that cannot please everyone. It is commonplace for directors looking for a new volunteer to be economical with the truth: “It won’t be very time-consuming or onerous”, they say. How much more difficult will the recruitment of new and the retention of existing directors become if this Bill adds considerably to the obligations placed on anyone who dares to volunteer?

Amendment 45 seeks to resolve the problem. It has two parts. First, it would allow the residents management companies and right to manage company directors, if they wish, to pass on the functions and liabilities of the accountable person or principal accountable person to an external, competent, qualified third party with proper professional indemnity insurance, which the directors could never obtain. Secondly, it would enable the directors to pass on the costs of so doing to the residents via the service charges. With this amendment in place, a significant barrier to leaseholders managing their own affairs will be avoided.

Successive Governments have consistently encouraged residents to assume mutual responsibility for managing their blocks of flats. Indeed, moves are in the pipeline to relaunch the so far unsuccessful commonhold arrangements, whereby the occupiers own the freehold as well as handling the management. So I am sure that there is no intention to impose a huge disincentive for leaseholders to participate in residents management companies and right to manage companies. By enabling the duties imposed by this Bill to be transferred from the volunteer residents to professional experts, a potential exodus of volunteers can be avoided and the encouragement for more resident control can be sustained. I hope, therefore, that the amendment is helpful in correcting an unintended oversight and that it will appeal to the Minister. I look forward to the contribution of the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, and I beg to move.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I support the noble Lord in his Amendment 45. He has described the issue very well—and given his huge contribution to the House, I shall look up his maiden speech.

I worry that unless we can find a way out for leaseholders who are also owners, no leaseholder in their right mind would contribute to the management of a building jointly owned by leaseholders. This has been a direction of travel in recent years, which I support. I believe it to be particularly valuable for smaller housing developments, of which we need more. As my noble friend Lord Young of Cookham said in Committee on 24 February, successive Governments have encouraged leaseholders to buy their freeholds. Indeed, he himself played an important part in that process. As I understand it, the leaseholders who have enfranchised and bought their freeholds are excluded from support under the Bill. That seems very unfair.

I know from direct experience in my own family that it is already very difficult to secure volunteers to run leaseholder-owned buildings, given the onerous duties involved and the time requirement. The Bill, with its additional duties and tensions, will, I fear, make it impossible. Here we have yet another perverse effect. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Best, that a solution must be found by Report, either by accepting his amendment or, if need be, in some other way. This is an unintended consequence that nobody wants.

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

My Lords, this is such an eminently sensible amendment, in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Best, and the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, that I think that the Minister will struggle to counter the arguments that have been made. What we are asking in this amendment is to avoid a situation involving resident management groups, or leaseholder-controlled companies, where the stringent expectations required to fulfil the duties under the Bill are put on the volunteers.

I already have concerns about the accountable person and how that role will fit in with those of the managing agent and building safety manager. We are beginning to create a fairly bureaucratic approach to safeguarding leaseholders and tenants, which has the risk of not fulfilling the simplicity and clarity that the Hackitt report required of new building safety measures.

I just think that the arguments cannot be countered. I look forward to what the Minister has to say, but this is such an eminently sensible proposal that I hope that the Government will find ways of bringing forward their own amendment on Report to fulfil the aims of this amendment.

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I thank noble Lords for suggesting this amendment but, for the reasons that I have set out, we are unable to accept it. However, I think that there is a wider question around residents leaning in and taking responsibility for buildings within our leaseholder reform policy and we will give this further thought within government. I offer those noble Lords who are interested a meeting before Report to discuss it further.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

A meeting would certainly be helpful. We also need to see this famous guidance. We know from other experience on buildings that there is an assumption that everything will be fine and dandy, but this is a very serious problem. We will lose those volunteers who are running buildings right across the country while waiting for Godot and a bit of guidance. If we are able to see the guidance and see that it works, we will be very happy. If it does not work, there will be time to do something. I am sorry to raise this point, but it is a practical matter for lots of people across the country, some of them in very inexpensive flats that they cannot even sell.

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

We absolutely understand the issue We are working on it. As I said, if we have a meeting, maybe we would have some ideas. I do not know about guidance yet, but we will make sure that we can have that discussion. I hope that we will get something better in place before Report.

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We already know there is a shortage of competent fire risk assessors; that was explored on the previous day in Committee. Clearly, these people will not be fire risk assessors. What building safety skills and standards will be required—and who will judge them? The building safety regulator? That would be a good starting point—but, so far as I can see, it is not in the Bill. There are a huge number of issues in relation to the building safety manager, and we want the Minister to be able to answer all those questions. We all want to find a way of making buildings safer, and we have to be convinced that creating this role will achieve that. I am not convinced. We will see what answers we get, and we may have to pursue this further on Report.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Khan of Burnley, will not mind if I ask for clarification on a related point. First, I will say how much I agreed with the speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, on the worry one might have about a shortage of experts for this purpose, leading to an escalation of costs that will end up with the ultimate consumer: the leaseholder. Clearly, given the history, we do not want confusion in the Bill.

My question is about how the safety manager will operate in practice. How often will he or she be expected to visit the building? Obviously, I know a lot more about shops, and in shops the safety manager is often a treasured member of staff who may not be an expert in safety but is an expert in making sure that other members of the team behave appropriately. You do not need much expertise on safety if you have a very good system—one that includes sprinklers, for example, which will work well because all you have to do is make sure that the sprinklers and the water that supplies them are checked from time to time. My question, which it would be good to have clarified, is: what is the vision of what this person is going to do, and will they be doing it once every five years, once a day, or whatever? That will affect both the cost and the risk that there will not be enough people to do the important job of ensuring that we have safe buildings. Even in high-rise buildings, there will still be quite a bit of demand.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, I want to say how much we agree with what the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, said about the importance of having adequate safety measures. That has to run through everything we discuss in connection with the Bill. The noble Baroness also raised the important issue of cost. My noble friend Lord Khan talked about high service charges, and the Minister said she would write about that. This debate has put a focus on ever-increasing service costs, and the fact that in many cases they are starting to become unreasonable. It is very difficult when they go up by 190%, as they have in some areas.

The noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, asked one of the key questions that I was going to ask, about the operation of the managers. What exactly are they going to do, and how are they going to do it? Will they be paid, and if so, how much? There is not a lot of detail in the Bill. This comes back to the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, about accountability, and whether there will be confusion over the role. It is important that we all understand exactly what building safety managers are expected to do, how they will do it and how they will be rewarded for their work. Without that clarification, there are bound to be concerns that the cost of their work will be passed on through increased service charges, or possibly increased rent. None of that is clear. We would like more clarification about the role and the expectations.

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Perhaps I can encourage the Minister to think about that carefully before we start upsetting people. This Bill upsets quite of lot of people, I know—probably quite rightly—but the real people for whom it needs to meet these standards are those who are in their own homes, have purchased property and need to be protected because they are vulnerable. I do not want any wriggling out to be able to occur here, which is why I make these technical points, not as a criticism but as an observation of how the Bill might need to look at these issues before the next stage.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

The noble Earl, Lord Lytton, is a great expert on landlord/tenant matters. I agree with him that changes to the leasehold system are not for this Bill; indeed, I do not think that my noble friend Lord Young was suggesting that they should be in it. We have quite enough to do in this Bill. I am grateful to my noble friend the Minister for his description of the new clauses and his willingness to listen, as I think that the new clauses may need some more work.

Like the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans, I am passionate about consultation, as my record elsewhere shows. Obviously, I am very concerned about bad practice. However, we cannot have a system where an unco-operative resident or two could prevent appropriate safety arrangements being agreed—that is a concern of mine—or encourage the use of too many expensive lawyers, with the cost ending up with the leaseholder.

We also need to think about the enforced requirements for a residents association, as suggested by my noble friend Lord Young in one of the amendments. It may be worth considering in high-risk cases, but it could complicate matters needlessly in some areas.

I shall speak to my Amendment 147 in this group. It would delay the commencement—that is, the coming into force—of the new provisions on the remediation of certain defects and building liability orders until an impact assessment has been published. Noble Lords will know of my passion for impact assessments; I thank my noble friend the Minister for the original assessment on the Bill. I emphasise, with my experience as a civil servant, a business executive and a Minister, that this is not simply a bureaucratic exercise. The discipline of drafting forces the executive authorities to reflect more deeply on the consequences, including the second, third and even fourth-order effects. It encourages good administration and identifies perverse effects and problems. All this matters more—not less—when the measures are ones of great complexity, especially if they are being rushed through.

I have reflected on this further in the light of our important debate on Amendment 24 in Committee last Thursday, 24 February. I have reread it carefully in Hansard, and I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, for mentioning that an impact assessment, as well as an Explanatory Memorandum, before Report would be helpful to our debate. As she said,

“blocking developers, even when they have planning consent … is a really radical proposal”,—[Official Report, 24/2/22; col. GC 184.]

and we need to know how it might work and have an impact assessment. We need to understand all those who would or could be affected, including cladding suppliers and manufacturers, architects and surveyors—and, indeed, the planning and building control authorities, which may need to change their practices.

I was struck by the complexity of what is proposed, and the certainty that there will be hidden and unnoticed effects. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans, in an excellent speech, was right to point out that any levy paid would inevitably be passed on to consumers and tenants in large part. He was also right to remind us of the chronic shortage of supply of homes in the UK. Indeed, in our report Meeting Housing Demand, the Built Environment Committee found a shortage of homes of all tenures, including social housing. We need to ensure that that does not go backwards, and that the whole building industry, already short of skills and resources, is not needlessly diverted—while, of course, doing the right thing on safety. A decent home is so important to all and we now need to cater for yet more arrivals as a result of the desperate situation in Ukraine.

I was therefore disappointed by the approach of my noble friend Lord Blencathra, who until recently chaired—very well, if I may say so—the Delegated Powers Committee. I believe it is irresponsible to give yet wider powers for bringing in and punishing, or penalising—effectively fining—new groups, when we have not thought through how they might be involved during our scrutiny of the Bill. I am afraid I have the same hesitation about engagement with residents, which is the subject of today’s group of amendments, which include a widening of powers. I regret to say that I think those amendments go too far.

More importantly, all this discussion has reinforced my view of the need for my amendment. I hope the Government will consider it carefully, as it might go some way to assuaging the fears that there may be about the proposals before us, and any decision by the House to widen their application. Wide powers are being taken in the Bill, which will set a precedent for the future. I would like to support the Government in finding a way through, but I would also like to understand the impact.

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

My Lords, this group covers three big issues—residents’ engagement strategy, access to properties, and the third part, relating to government amendments, some of which have not been moved today, on construction products and liabilities. My noble friend Lord Stunell will wind up this debate, using his expert knowledge of many of these issues, so I shall restrict my comments to the amendments about residents’ engagement, access and a little bit about construction products.

I completely agree that there has to be a residents’ engagement strategy. One of the learning points from the terrible Grenfell Tower fire was that residents wanted a voice and tried to make their voice heard, but it was not listened to. Their voice may have been heard, but it was certainly not listened to—and it was certainly not acted on.

As the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, has pointed out, there is a big part of the Hackitt report which references the importance of the residents’ voice, and of listening to and acting on what they say. They are the folk who live there. They are the people who daily see what goes on. Their voice must be heard so, whatever else we do, I hope that we will strengthen those clauses about resident engagement. Picking up on the point made by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans, we need residents’ associations to do that. We cannot force them to exist, but we can put the onus on the freeholder or the accountable person to ensure that there is some method for the residents’ voice to be heard.

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I make it clear that these Benches very much want this legislation to succeed in its primary objective of delivering safe buildings at no additional cost to their existing occupants. However, we also want to see mechanisms and provisions in place that are realistic and deliverable, where any unintended consequences are clearly identified and then mitigated—or, better still, avoided altogether.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

Does the noble Lord think this construction product schedule includes such things as wood? The thing about fire safety is that it is not just to do with whether it is a plastic tile of some sort but with where construction products are used. In a case that I am aware of, there is an argument that things made of wood—as they have been for a thousand years—are not safe and should be replaced by something else. I am not quite clear how the construction products link into that. This may be a question for the Minister, but I ask the noble Lord, Lord Stunell, because he has obviously been studying this.

[Lord Stunell (LD)]

The noble Baroness is certainly right that there are materials that have been used in one way, safely and successfully, for thousands of years, and others that are intrinsically safe, such as bricks—presuming they are made of clay rather than straw. I will not try to give the full range, because I think the Committee would get bored quite quickly and my pool of knowledge is quite shallow, but she has raised an important point: it is not just about having a product but about what you do with it. I am sure the High Court would want to put both components together before issuing any building liability orders, which seem to be the nuclear weapon that the Government believe they have in their hands.

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[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I was caught mid-sentence so I will go back to the beginning of that particular sentence. The noble Baroness suggests that we require detailed requirements on contravention notices to ensure the proper use of these powers, but that is better suited to regulations. Indeed, the balance between what is reasonable to expect of an accountable person, the urgency of building safety risks and protecting residents from potential misuse of powers is crucial. That is why we believe that this detail should be set out in regulations, developed in consultation with residents and accountable persons and subject to public consultation.

Amendment 52B would allow residents a reasonable time to remedy any alleged contravention before an application to the court; indeed, the Bill provides that the accountable person must specify the steps that the resident should take and a reasonable time for taking them. The court is very unlikely to issue an order before that time has expired.

Amendment 55C would require the building safety regulator to consult on and issue a statutory code of practice regarding powers of entry. Subsequently, Amendments 53B, 53C, 53D, 54B, 55A and 55B would require the accountable person to comply with a statutory code of practice and ensure that the right of entry into homes applies only in urgent cases or emergencies. In respect of Amendments 52A and 54A, the Government are closely listening to these points; however, the noble Baroness’s intention is already being achieved, as the resident would be notified of the application from the accountable person as part of the court process.

I would like to reassure the noble Baroness that there are already safeguards against misuse in this Bill. Under Clause 86, we will prescribe principles under which the accountable person must operate. These have been published in draft and include the requirement to consider the impacts on residents within the building.

In addition, the clause provides that accountable persons have a right of entry to a resident’s home with an order awarded by the court. The courts will apply established principles when considering any such application for entry and will grant access only when they consider it just to do so. This provides an effective safeguard against misuse. As noted in response to the points raised by my noble friend Lord Blencathra, we would expect the accountable person to seek to resolve issues directly with residents in the first instance to gain entry where it is needed.

The building safety regulator will issue guidance to accountable persons, which will set out the expectations for their system for handling residents’ duties and enforcing them. It is important to note that these powers are necessary for the accountable person to be able to discharge the legal duties we are placing on them. Although their use covers emergency cases, access may be needed where a resident refuses to allow the accountable person to discharge their duties. Indeed, the provision is designed for the discharge of day-to-day duties and not for emergency situations, which would require calling the emergency services.

As such, we must again strike a balance between protecting residents and affording the accountable person the tools needed to keep their building and residents safe. We believe that this balance is correctly achieved in the Bill. I understand the noble Baroness’s intentions with these amendments but, for the reasons I have given, I ask her not to press them.

I now turn to Amendment 107A in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Stunell, which seeks to probe whether the retrospective liability provisions in Amendment 107 apply only to higher-risk buildings. I reiterate the points I made earlier when outlining the intent of the Government’s amendments. This course of action will apply to all dwellings and all buildings containing dwellings. The Government’s position is that the ability to recover cost contributions from product manufacturers should not be restricted to those who live in multi-occupied high-rise buildings. While it is true to say that the amount of cladding on lower-rise buildings is likely to be lower, we do not think it appropriate to exclude these just because the building is not as tall. The crucial factor must be the safety risk.

We are not restricting this course of action to buildings over 18 metres because we intend to enable all individuals who have suffered a loss as a result of a dwelling being made unfit for habitation due to the mis-selling of a product, a product being inherently defective or a breach of existing building regulations to seek cost contributions for the losses they have incurred. This course of action protects leaseholders and home owners by ensuring that all construction product manufacturers are held liable for their part in the creation of building safety defects. The broad application of this course of action to include all dwellings reinforces this principle and delivers a proportionate approach. The scope of this course of action to apply to all dwellings will mirror the Defective Premises Act.

Finally, I turn to my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe’s Amendment 147. I assure her that the Government have considered the impact on business of the measures I tabled on 14 February. We are clear that the principle of protecting leaseholders is paramount. It is fundamentally unfair that innocent leaseholders should be landed with bills that they cannot afford to fix problems that they did not cause. These amendments will right this wrong, and the Government consider it critical that the provisions take effect as soon as possible. I must therefore ask my noble friend to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

Are the Government planning to produce an impact assessment on the new measures? My amendment was drafted the way it was on the advice of the Bill clerks, but obviously my main concern is to understand the detail of this promising package.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

I am sorry; with the sheer length of the debate, we are now approaching the two-hour mark, so I hope that my noble friend will forgive me if I did not address that specific point. However, I did address the point that the Valentine’s Day amendments, tabled on 14 February, were made in haste. The work around impact assessment was therefore not carried out at that time, but obviously we intend to update our impact assessment to reflect all the amendments that the Government have brought forward; that is the good practice my noble friend seeks, I think.

I thank noble Lords for this debate, which has been an important and necessary part of the scrutiny of this legislation. I hope that, with the reassurances given, noble Lords will be happy to withdraw or not press their amendments. This has been a feast of a debate so let us conclude it with the two words that we used to say in our formal hall: benedicto benedicatur.

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That “defect” is singular, so is this per defect or per agglomeration of defects—in other words, does the cap relate to the sum of all remediation works or do different caps apply to individual works? It is this whole process of clarity that needs to be sorted out. I would certainly be happy to sit down with the Minister and other noble Lords to try to work out some of these things and get them straight.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, some very good questions have been asked in this debate. I am grateful to the Minister for setting out his proposals. I rise briefly, as it is late, to say that I very much support two practical amendments; as noble Lords know, I am essentially a practical person. They are Amendment 56 in the name of my noble friend Lord Young of Cookham, on aligning building safety charges and service charges, and Amendment 94ZA in the name of my noble friend Lord Leigh, on the dilemma facing leaseholders who have already paid service charges.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, I have two amendments in this group. Before I introduce them and talk about the things that we are perhaps not so content with in the group, I just want to say that we recognise that the Government have introduced some very important amendments here. We welcome the work they are trying to do to improve the Bill from its previous incarnation.

The first amendment in my name is Amendment 88. The reason we introduced it is that, looking at all aspects of the crisis that this Bill is trying to address, these Benches are concerned that the Government’s approach does not appear to have a central plan. This amendment was also tabled in the other place by my colleagues, so we are repeating their call for the Government to act across the piece to solve the crisis. We ask that the Minister considers accepting our proposals for a building works agency, which would provide a more hands-on approach.

As we have heard, home owners, many of them first-time buyers, have become trapped in a perfect storm in unsafe buildings because they cannot sell their homes, and are forced to pay thousands in remediation works through no fault of their own. We propose that a team of experts does what the Government have not done so far with this Bill: go from building to building to assess real risk, deciding what needs to be fixed and in what order, using the building safety fund to get those buildings fixed and overseeing the work. Crucially, the Government could then sign off the buildings as safe and sellable, bringing certainty back into the market.

To make it clear, we see the building safety works agency as a separate body to the building safety regulator, with no duplication or crossover; in the debate in the other place, the Minister felt that there was crossover. We see the building safety works agency overseeing the remediation works and the other body regulating. One regulates and one does the work. This would mean that the Government could really take on those who are responsible for creating the crisis and who need to pay. This approach was put in place by a cross-party group of politicians and experts in Victoria, Australia, after there was a serious fire there. That is why we think it would work here: it is not just an idea off the top of our heads but something that has been done and worked before. It would enable the Government really to lead from the front on this matter.

Briefly, my Amendment 125 was tabled before the most recent government amendments. It replicates the McPartland-Smith new Clause 5 from the Commons, amending Part XVI of the Housing Act 1985. Now that the Government have tabled their amendments, it has been superseded, but I will still speak to it to remind the Committee that there have been previous attempts to address the fire safety question during the passage of the Bill. This amendment illustrates that there are different approaches to how the issue can be solved in legislation. It was previously tabled with a range of other amendments addressed to Part 5 of the Bill with the aim of allowing the Government and local authorities to enable grants for remediation work—specifically, by allowing the Government and local authorities to designate dwellings with cladding and fire safety defects as defective.

Having now seen the government amendments, I ask the Minister why the Government could not back the original amendment, which was after all tabled by Conservative Members of Parliament. How did the Government then arrive at the decision to table what they have come up with?

I want now to look at some of the other amendments in the group, and in particular at the implications of government Amendment 92. We do not think that any of the announcements benefit leaseholders who have already paid for remediation work—this has been mentioned by other noble Lords today. The fact that there is no retrospective coverage means that even if the proposed amendments become law and are effectively implemented, many leaseholders will continue to suffer the financial impact of the building safety crisis.

I therefore indicate our strong support for Amendment 131, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, which proposes that the Secretary of State set up a statutory public inquiry. It is really important for us to understand exactly what the situation is. Otherwise, there will be no recovery of these costs to leaseholders. Any steps which will lead to full retrospective protection for leaseholders who have already paid remediation costs should be taken seriously by the Government.

If the Government choose to introduce a cap on non-cladding remediation works—the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, talked about this extensively in relation to her amendments, and we fully support what she is trying to achieve—it would mean that the maximum amount payable would be a peppercorn amount, which is effectively nothing and is where we need to be. Leaseholders should not be liable to pay for any costs that have resulted from a faulty regulatory system, whether these are related to cladding or non-cladding remediation, or interim safety measures. As the noble Lord, Lord Naseby, said, all leaseholders should be treated exactly the same.

Further, it is unclear who will be liable to pay for remediation costs or the provision of interim safety measures such as waking watch in cases where the £10,000 or £15,000 cap has been met. Many buildings with fire safety issues can be occupied thanks to waking watches and other interim measures. If these are removed, there is a risk that the building receives a prohibition or decant notice and/or a withdrawal of building insurance cover. I hope that the Minister has his thinking cap on, because I have quite a lot of questions and requests for clarification. There have been a great number of amendments to consider and fully understand, so I hope that he will bear with me.

The combined effect of the various amendments is pretty complex. They seem to create what I can describe only as a system of cascading statutory protection, each stage of which is triggered only if the prior one is exhausted. I shall go through my understanding of it. Can the Minister confirm that I am correct or clarify where I have got it wrong? I know that the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, also asked for clarification in a number of areas.

My understanding is that the system would work as follows. First, developers who are still the freeholders of a given building or are linked to it by a subsidiary, as well as cladding manufacturers, are expected to pay first. Secondly, freeholders of buildings who are not the original developers or linked to the original developers are expected to pay second, subject to an affordability test to be set out in the future via regulations. Thirdly, if those freeholders cannot pay, leaseholders will be expected to pay only a capped amount based on Florrie’s law towards non-cladding costs only. Anything they have paid to date counts towards the capped amount. Assuming that I have understood this correctly, I ask the Minister for more clarity on how this cascade system is expected to work in practice and what estimates, if any, the Government have made.

For example, how do the Government expect to define the affordability test at stage 2 of the cascade in regulations, given that this will make a huge difference to the number of cases that then get to stage 3? Why is there no protection for social landlords at stage 2, given the impact on affordable housing supply? What happens if freeholders of buildings who are not the original developers or linked to the original developer cannot pay and the costs exceed the leaseholder cap by a substantial amount? Who makes up the difference? Would it be from the department’s affordable housing budget, for example?

Building Safety Bill

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 21st February 2022 Grand Committee

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, I was not expecting to speak after the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, so I will not comment on her proposals but will wait to hear other comments. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Foster of Bath, for introducing the first group of amendments, and very much endorse what he said about the sad victims of Grenfell. I was thinking that taking fire safety and buildings away from the fire brigade, as we did about a quarter of a century ago, may have had some sad and perverse effects. I refer to my interests in the register, notably as a non-executive director of Secure Trust Bank and as the owner of property that is sometimes rented out. I am also proud to be chair of the Built Environment Committee and to see distinguished colleagues here today.

I was sorry not to be able to speak in the long and interesting debate at Second Reading. However, I remind noble Lords of my involvement in the Fire Safety Bill and the concern I expressed very early on about the position of leaseholders and their inability to sell property because of the uncertainties and the problems with the dreaded EWS1 form, which we will come on to. I look forward to debating the Government’s recent package later, but for now I turn to the regulator and his or her functions, the subject of this group.

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[The Minister of State, Home Office and Department for Levelling Up, Housing & Communities (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)]

My Lords, I was not expecting to be in what the Romans called a frigidarium for this stage of the Bill. It is positively bracing. I am sure that as the week wears on we will get a slightly more normal temperature. It is already slightly better, so it clearly just takes a bit of time.

I will try to capture each group of amendments in three words or fewer. I am going to call this group the “widening the scope” group of amendments—that is three words. I will go through each amendment in turn. In practice, I have sympathy with every idea that has been put forward. However, I would like noble Lords to consider that the more we widen the scope, the greater the risk that we will actually fail in the first duty of any Government, which is to keep people safe. Our focus has to be based on what it is reasonable to expect from a new regulator in the Health and Safety Executive. So, although I have sympathy, I will resist this group of amendments, because, when we talk about high risk, the scope has to be necessarily tight in order to give the HSE the chance to grow as a regulator and to implement this regime properly.

However, I thank noble Lords for their contributions to this first group of amendments. I believe that this is a landmark piece of legislation and a necessary one. I can feel the broad support that it has from all sides of the House, and I look forward to further debates in Committee. There has already been good discussion in this grouping, and I am grateful for the commitment from all noble Lords to improve the Bill and to reform building safety more generally. I have listened to the concerns raised by noble Lords and I thank them for their helpful contributions. As I said, I will respond to them all in turn.

I start by talking about the fire which the noble Lord, Lord Foster of Bath, mentioned. It is true that it was a staggeringly awful fire, even though there was no loss of life, and the noble Lord captured that very well in his speech. I have spent quite a bit of time trying to learn the lessons of the near misses, if you like, so I have met Geeta Nanda, chair of the G15, who I have known for some time. She is also the chief executive of the Metropolitan Thames Valley housing association, which manages Richmond House within Worcester Park, which consists of 23 households of shared owners. I have also met Dean Summers—on Zoom; I have not met him in person—who took over from Sean Ellis, and I had a meeting with him as the new managing director of St James.

It is fair to say that Richmond House, which was built in 2011 by the Berkeley Group—St James is part of the Berkeley Group—was built in a shockingly bad way. It was built without internal compartmentalisation and certainly would never have passed the building regulations at the time. There was also inadequate fire-stopping, which is one of the reasons why the fire spread so quickly. Candidly, it is absolutely right that the Berkeley Group pays for its replacement and addresses all the losses suffered by the shared owners. I am very interested in that, and I have asked for a report from the housing association and Berkeley on progress on doing precisely that. The building was not built in line with building regulations, so it should not have happened. It is a four-storey building and is under 11 metres, which, according to the building regulations, should not have been able to happen, so we have an example of someone having signed off a building that should never have been signed off. That is the lesson of Richmond House.

Sometimes regulation does not work. That, for me, is the lesson. The other lesson is that fire is a tragedy, not just when you lose lives but in the opportunities lost. This Bill does a lot to make housing overall safer, and we will have much better housing stock over the next 30 years than we have had in the previous 30 years.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

Another problem at Worcester Park might have been the failure to implement the building regulations. I have found building regulation enforcement very patchy. There has been a lot of very aggressive enforcement of building regulations in my lovely county, yet here there has obviously been a disaster with building regulations. Is enforcement of the regulations not also important, and will that be improved by our work here?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

I think we need to ensure the competence of enforcement and that it works, and the competence of the people who assess buildings and sign them off as fit for human habitation. In the same way with crime where we want an absence of crime, we want an absence of these problems. Yes, we need to improve enforcement and there needs to be the strong arm of the law. That is why we want to have a strong regulator in this new regulator under the HSE. We have Housing Act powers for local authorities to intervene. The fire service has powers under the fire safety order. There are lots of powers and lots of regulators that can step in and do something about it. In this case, they all failed. Yes, we need to strengthen them. We understand a lot more about the inadequacies of some of the built environment, but my noble friend is right that we also need to strengthen enforcement.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Foster of Bath, for his amendments. On Amendment 1, I hope noble Lords will agree that the regulator should exercise its functions in line with its first objective: to secure the safety of people in and around buildings. I am concerned that adding additional objectives for the new building safety regulator could distract from this mission. The Bill provides the regulator with a broader objective to improve the standard of buildings. Achieving this could involve the regulator improving regulatory standards relevant to property protection, such as security, resilience and fire safety, so the regulator’s remit already extends to considering these issues.

Adding a specific objective for property protection would have two main downsides. First, it would put property protection on a par with resident safety as a priority for the regulator. The Government believe that the regulator should prioritise residents’ safety and do not want the regulator to be distracted from that. There is a risk that a specific requirement always to consider property protection would result in the regulator favouring solutions that go beyond what is required for residents’ safety. The second downside is that this amendment risks skewing the building safety regulator’s oversight function. The Government intend the regulator to use evidence to identify emerging issues with the safety and performance of buildings and to make recommendations to Ministers on regulatory changes where needed. A property protection objective would distract the regulator from using evidence to identify and rectify the most pressing issues, which might, for example, relate to net zero and sustainability rather than property protection.

The pre-legislative scrutiny committee considered property protection but found that the existing objectives are a sensible starting point—I emphasise “starting point”. The committee suggested that the Government keep this under review. We are committed to doing this through the provision in Clause 135 for a regular independent review of the effectiveness of the regulator and the wider regulatory system.

Turning to Amendment 12, there are already powers for building regulations to cover specific aspects of building resilience. We believe that it is better that building regulations are targeted on specific issues rather than open-ended requirements. However, we recognise that, for residential buildings, further research into property protection is warranted. The impact of the loss of a home is significant, so we are taking this forward as part of the technical review of approved document B on fire safety. I thank the noble Lord for suggesting these amendments and respectfully ask him to withdraw Amendment 1.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Brinton (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I shall speak specifically to Amendment 6 but I endorse the others, for reasons that will become apparent. One thing we have all become aware of, post Grenfell and the Hackitt review, is concerns about repeat problems emerging, whether they are systemic ones to do with the way a building has been built or newly emerging issues. They happen time and again, and yet the industry, councils and Parliament do not seem to learn from them. I shall give one brief illustration to explain.

In my role as health spokesperson for my group in the Lords, I know that we are increasingly concerned about some of the mould and damp issues increasingly found in more recent 1960s buildings, to which landlords have been very slow to respond. There is clearly a public health issue where especially children and the clinically vulnerable remain at risk and become ill, and yet there does not seem to be a mechanism to provide a review to make sure that there is learning from this, especially since it is happening across the country.

The other amendments in this group set out a swathe of mechanisms to ensure transparency and accountability for the BS regulator, the Secretary of State and Parliament. Returning to Dame Hackitt’s review, these amendments would be a strategic element to push the culture change that she sought, to make sure that those who have some responsibility have to look at a higher level to make sure that buildings are safe and are dealt with, and that the costs, both in building and in human experience, are monitored.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

Briefly, I support the idea of review clauses and of learning from mistakes. Obviously, I have not been a Minister in this area, but I was a Minister in other areas and I did agree, occasionally, to review clauses where people had concerns. I found that the reports that came along two years later—if one survived that long—were actually extremely useful, and ensured that the Civil Service system was behind the objectives of the Bill. Exactly what one would put in a review clause is another question. I would certainly want added some of the points I made earlier—which the Minister helpfully said were contained in a code of practice for regulators—bringing up the agenda the sort of good practice we have seen at some of our better regulators, such as the HSE. I hope the Minister will think about whether there is scope for a review clause to help on some of these issues.

We talked about sprinklers. As people know, I have run supermarkets, so I have had practical experience of all these different fire safety methods. Certainly, when sprinklers were put in, it took away a lot of headaches, provided you could secure the water supply. That sort of innovation—whatever the new ones are; AI or whatever—can form part of a review process two, four or six years later.

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD)]

My Lords, Amendment 129 in my name proposes to add a short new clause to the Climate Change Act 2008. Section 56 of the 2008 Act says:

“It is the duty of the Secretary of State to lay reports before Parliament containing an assessment of the risks for the United Kingdom of the current and predicted impact of climate change.”


All I am seeking is to put in something to make more precise the need to refer to the impact of climate change on buildings and to say something about the location of those buildings that will be affected. It would require the Secretary of State to include in a report an assessment of the risks and the locations of such threats to buildings caused by climate change. We all know only too well, just today, the real problems we are facing because of climate change, yet climate change is not mentioned in the Bill at all. The amendment aims to rectify that.

Building Safety

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Excerpts

Tuesday 11th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My eyesight is not the best, but I now know that those were the lovely dulcet tones of the noble Lord, Lord Kerslake. I remember that, when I was leader of Hammersmith and Fulham Council, the noble Lord visited me to discuss housing policy. He has had a long-standing interest in this area and has been a distinguished chief executive and an extremely senior civil servant in Whitehall, so he has worked at all levels of government and I know he comes from a good place. Peabody is a provider of extremely good social housing and there are great examples of that where I live. I commend the work it does. It provides housing for some of the most vulnerable people, but also people of all income streams who cannot afford market housing.

We have to work with Kate Henderson at the National Housing Federation and with the G15 associations, all of which have development arms and have built housing. We have to accept that some of the G15 associations may have built houses with unsafe material. I take the view that, if you are social developer, particularly as you have had a subsidy to do the development, and have made the same mistakes as a private developer, then the consequences should be the same. We should do that in a way that is fair and proportionate to ensure that the polluter, whoever it is, contributes to fixing the mess that they have played some part in creating. It should be collaborative; I have spent a lot of time reaching out to the National Housing Federation and different chief executives, and will continue to do so.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, I have an interest as chair of the Built Environment Committee. I very much welcome the package of measures, although I regret the time that it has taken to get to this stage. My experience on the ground is that we need flexibility at the edges to apply common sense, so I welcome the notion of proportionality. Risk assessments by external advisers can jeopardise good businesses, as we know from the overzealous enforcement of a number of EU regulations and the disastrous EWS1s, which, if I understand it correctly, my noble friend is rightly withdrawing. Will the Government ensure that the new British Standards Institution guidance prevents the needless recrafting and remediation of buildings—especially old buildings with an old balcony or a wooden beam, which pose a low risk of fire?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

I first praise the efforts of my noble friend in raising issues throughout my time as Building Safety Minister, and particularly for her passion about how we improve the built environment. The honest answer is that the introduction of the British Standards Institution’s Publicly Available Specification 9980 will go some way, and it will take time to ensure that we have a more proportionate approach. As I have already said in responding to questions, there is no silver bullet, but it is good to have the right direction of travel. That requires the lenders, insurers and valuers who follow valuation guidance from RICS to all take a sensible approach, and that takes time. The more we focus on proportionality and risk, as opposed to having a binary view that everything needs to be fixed in the most expensive manner possible, the closer we get to a far better place.

UK Community Renewal Fund

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Excerpts

Wednesday 8th December 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

Well, given the state of the national finances, increasing the core spending power to the degree that we have shows a real commitment to local government. I point out that this particular fund is all around the skills and what it takes to increase the economic output of an area. The levelling-up fund is another fund that is focused on the more capital-intensive digital and road and rail infrastructure.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

Does my noble friend agree that the best way to achieve levelling up is by economic growth and higher productivity, helped by good local authorities? I agree with my noble friend that the rising tide raises all boats. We should be seeking to make that a reality in these difficult times.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

The reality is that we need local leadership. We need the vision in local places. We need to understand why a place should be competitive and then, with that local leadership, backed up by taxpayer pump-priming, turn places around. We have too few local leaders who have clear vision at the moment. There are some examples: we are seeing the success of our mayors, and we have to back them to ensure that the whole country rises. But the rhetoric about lifting all boats is precisely right.

Town and Country Planning (Fees for Applications, Deemed Applications, Requests and Site Visits) (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2021

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Excerpts

Tuesday 29th June 2021 Grand Committee

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Bhatia, and my noble friend Lord Moynihan—especially during Wimbledon and on the day of England’s critical game at the European Championship. It causes me to wonder whether the expansion of sporting facilities is encouraged at all by the new permitted development rights.

I rise mainly to speak in support of the regulations. I thank my noble friend the Minister for his clear and succinct explanation. I have an interest as the chair of the new House of Lords Built Environment Committee. We have today announced an inquiry into “Meeting the UK’s housing demand” and hope to hear from as many people as possible. Our first oral hearing is next Tuesday, 6 July, and subsequent ones are at 9.30 am on Tuesdays.

One strand of our work will be on skill shortages and assessing whether the professional and other skills required to meet housing demand—for example, in the construction, planning and design sectors—are being tackled adequately. One of the issues we face is a dearth of planning staff following pressure on local authority budgets, Covid and the need to consider and process development applications across the country, partly as a result of the changes that provide the context for today’s draft regulations.

I support my noble friend the Minister’s proposals to charge fees for these new areas of work. It is essential that planning departments have the capacity and professionalism to do a proper job. Planning fees are an important source of finance for councils seeking to provide a good and timely service. My only question is whether the fees are high enough. Take a proposal to add storeys to a home, terrace or block of flats. There may be quite a lot of factors to consider, such as light and design, and representations to process—for example, from those who live underneath the new developments. The Minister may like to comment on this and any plans he has to keep the fees under review.

I thank the Minister for the full explanation of the regulations in the paperwork that has been circulated and the impact assessment relating to the original order, which I found very interesting. I note from page 8 of the Explanatory Memorandum that another impact assessment is being prepared and submitted for independent assessment. Why is this not available now? The whole point of these assessments is to inform intelligent decision-making. It is virtually pointless ex post.

Housebuilding

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Excerpts

Tuesday 26th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

The definition of “affordable” that we use is taxpayer-subsidised housing. Of course, that is council housing as well as housing association and social housing but, importantly, it is housing that takes you on a pathway to home ownership—so it is immediate housing that is also discounted by the taxpayer.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con) (V)]

My Lords, home ownership is a huge contributor to a prosperous and contented society, and I am glad to see the Minister’s focus on this. What is the gross number of new homes that were built last year? I am not sure about the basis for the figure of 244,000 that he mentioned. How many were in existing buildings such as pubs, offices or shops?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, the gross figure for additional dwellings was 252,790. That figure was obtained by adding 243,770 net additional dwellings to 9,000 demolitions. Some 26,930 gains were made through change of use.

Leaseholders: Properties with Cladding

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Excerpts

Thursday 7th January 2021 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress they have made towards supporting leaseholders who cannot (1) sell, or (2) mortgage, their properties as a result of issues with cladding.

[The Minister of State, Home Office and Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)]

The Government have published supplementary guidance and the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors will be working with lenders, valuers and the safety bodies to develop new advice for surveyors. This will enable surveyors to take a more proportionate approach where there are concerns about cladding. Furthermore, the Government have announced nearly £700,000 to train more assessors, speeding up the valuation process for home owners where an EWS1 form is required.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con) [V]]

I know the Minister is trying very hard, but this is a lamentable and serious situation, with numerous facets impinging on millions of people who have done nothing wrong. It has dragged on for too long. Does the Minister agree that we need energetically to find a way forward that prioritises the most important matters, does not let the best become the enemy of good, limits the scale of the problem by excluding dwellings that do not pose a serious risk from the new cladding rules, and delivers a fair financial outcome? Will he set up a task force, possibly under a leading public figure, to recommend an early package of measures to get us out of this impasse, as a whole?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for raising this topic, which we both feel strongly about. I do not think the solution is a task force; it is about taking a position to implement something that makes good policy. The approach that the Government have taken so far is to restrict demand. In the guidance being published tomorrow, we will see all buildings below 11 metres, unless there is a rare example of one coated in Grenfell-style cladding, taken out of scope at one fell swoop. The focus will then be between 11 metres and 18 metres, where the threshold is deemed to be above 25% coated in flammable materials. That takes a vast majority of the 100,000 remaining buildings out of scope. Then you are left with 11,700 high-rises, which comes to 2,000 or so buildings. We have made huge strides by managing demand in this way, sending out the clarification to the advice note and addressing the supply issue to deal with the remediation required.

Provisional Local Government Finance Settlement

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Excerpts

Wednesday 6th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Uddin, for raising the issue of homelessness. I know from having visited the London Borough of Tower Hamlets on many occasions and the London Borough of Newham on a number of occasions that homelessness is a real issue. I would point out that this settlement is pretty good news: it is reasonable to put forward £100 million to start planning for move-on accommodation from temporary accommodation, which is not a place where you want families to be. That was provided in the summer. There is a commitment in the financial settlement of £750 million towards supporting people whom we have a statutory duty to house—the homeless—and £430 million of that is for move-on accommodation. I hope that assures the noble Baroness that we take issues of how to tackle homelessness very seriously.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con) [V]]

My Lords, largely because of the needs of Covid, the national finances are now in a dire state. Many retailers are experiencing serious financial problems for the same reason. The temporary suspension of business rates, a national policy, is relevant. Is the Minister satisfied that the Government’s policy on business rates is optimal and value for money and that it best deals with the serious problems both within the retail sector and, more generally, the problems of the high street?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for raising the issue of the high street. There is support through the high streets fund to ensure that our high streets thrive, but they are places where we need to see significant change. As my noble friend points out, a lot of businesses on the high street are struggling to pay their business rates. I think that, in the longer term, the tax base needs to shift. This is not policy, but self-evidently we are seeing online business take a greater share, and those housed in bricks and mortar are struggling to make a go of their businesses.

We need to see a policy shift over time. The Government cannot do that by waving a magic wand, so we need to make sure that there are policy tweaks to support the high street in the interim. There are a lot of measures to do that in those that my right honourable friend Robert Jenrick has announced. More will be coming to support our high streets, which are the very bedrock of local economies.

Fire Safety Bill

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Excerpts

Report stage & Report stage (Hansard) & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 17th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, this is an issue that I raised in Committee, and I confirm that I have no intention of dividing the House on it this afternoon. I have tabled it again to give the Minister the opportunity to put beyond any doubt that the organisations that I have listed will be consulted, without question, because they are important in their different ways. I accept the point that has been made before that things change over time, but I think it is a reasonable assumption that we will have local authorities, trade unions representing firefighters and other workers in the sector more generally, and associations representing tenants and residents, for the foreseeable future, and that consultation must go much wider than the National Fire Chiefs Council.

Amendment 6 from the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, is a probing amendment, as the noble Baroness makes clear in her explanatory statement, allowing the Minister to offer clarity to the House. Again, I welcome the amendment made in that spirit by the noble Baroness and I beg to move.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, it is always a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy. I think that he and I agree on the value of consultation in many different arenas.

My probing amendment relates to an appalling situation arising as an indirect consequence of the Grenfell tragedy. As a direct result of that fire, vast amounts of cladding, especially on high-rise blocks, will have to be removed. The requirements for improvement consequently imposed on those concerned—freeholders, leaseholders and so on—affect a very large number of multiple-occupation dwellings, unnecessarily, some might say, whatever their height. As a consequence, surveyors, insurers and mortgage lenders, all financially involved, have become very concerned by their clients’ potential unquantified exposure to risk and are taking steps to minimise it. Inevitably, they are taking a cautious view. Wooden features such as staircases and partitions—used since the dawn of time and much more sustainable than steel or plastic derivatives—are often viewed with suspicion.

A particular uncertainty is what the remedial action will cost and who will bear that cost. There is currently no good answer to that concern and, as a consequence, much of the market is effectively frozen. Thus, many properties are in practice unsaleable, with knock-on effects on people’s financial viability and the mobility of workers. As I emphasised in Committee, this is a nightmare for the young who want to move when they have a baby, for the old who want to trade down to something smaller and release capital for their care, and for the unemployed who need to move to get a new job.

I explained all that in Committee, and I think it would be fair to say that, although the Minister, in responding, accepted that there was a problem, he said nothing about how it might be solved. I hope that we can move a step forward today and that the Minister will be able to say something that will ease up the market in respect of at least some of the dwellings where the fire risk is small. Standing back, it is apparent that the Bill takes us in the wrong direction on this issue, because it provides for an increase in the number of requirements and regulations without providing a way forward on the threat to the housing market and our reputation as supporters of home ownership, which many people aspire to.

To be more specific, first, can the Minister provide a clear trajectory for the implementation of the Bill, the revisions to the fire safety order and the building safety Bill to reassure us on consistency and show how the uncertainty and unintended consequences for leaseholders arising as a result of these changes will be kept to a minimum?

Secondly, what assessment have the Government made of the availability of qualified assessors and fire safety engineers to account for the increased demand that will arise from the Bill? How can they help in this regard?

Thirdly, can the Government develop a system, such as you might see in the health and safety area, referenced earlier, that allows non-professionals involved in managing multiple-occupation properties to do the necessary risk assessments and give the assurances needed for the market to move? The EWS1 system—designed, I believe, to help with the mortgage problem—has, unfortunately, had a perverse effect.

Fourthly, can the Minister say anything to unfreeze properties—for example, those of a low height where the risk is much less?

This is a very difficult issue and I know that my noble friend the Minister, with his experience of local government, understands the issues and has been trying very hard. I welcome the considerable funds made available to deal with the most serious high-rise cladding issue and the progress that is therefore being made. He should also be thanked for his wider efforts to improve the housing sector and build more homes. However, the problem that I have described, with support from my noble friend Lord Shinkwin in Committee, is a very serious one and we need action now. As the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, will be winding up on this group, I should like to say that I, like my noble friend Lord Bourne, would appreciate a further meeting on how we tackle this matter before the new order and the building safety Bill proceed.

Fire Safety Bill

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 29th October 2020 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

2: Clause 2, page 2, line 7, at end insert—
“( ) Regulations under subsection (1) may not amend the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 to apply the Order to domestic premises in buildings under five storeys in height.”Member’s explanatory statement
This is a probing amendment to enable the House to discuss fire safety measures that apply to low-rise domestic buildings, which have a lesser fire risk, and how the powers under Clause 2 may be used to implement Grenfell inquiry recommendations.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, I am sorry that I was not able to speak at Second Reading. However, I am glad to rise to move Amendment 2, which is probing in nature but very serious. It reflects one of the problems that has arisen from actions taken following the Grenfell tragedy. One consequence of Grenfell is that cladding on many dwellings, especially high-rise flats, will have to be treated and/or removed if their safety is to be assured. Initially, statements by government Ministers implied that cladding on buildings of over 18 metres was in question, but subsequent remarks have implied that buildings of lower height could also be affected. The proposed order, of course, goes beyond cladding. It covers balconies and windows and the entrance doors to individual flats. These are often made of wood, as they have been since virtually the dawn of time, and the advice from consultants and so on is that they need to be replaced or fireproofed under the new regime.

All of this will be a very expensive process. Rough estimates reveal that the cost per dwelling can easily reach tens of thousands of pounds. In many cases, it is not clear from where the money for the changes needed will come. Freeholders, leaseholders and government look on in horror at the implications. As a consequence, a substantial part of the housing market is effectively frozen. Buyers will not purchase unless they can be assured that they will not be caught by these extra costs, or at least until any costs can be reliably quantified. Many people simply cannot move because their dwellings cannot be sold until the impasse is resolved.

The problem is aggravated by the use of the now-infamous external fire wall review form developed by the RICS, no doubt in an effort to be helpful. The perverse effect of this was debated in the other place. There is a shortage of people qualified to undertake such surveys and the delay leads to the collapse of house sales. So the young who want to move somewhere bigger, for example when they have a baby, the old who want to trade down and release capital, and the unemployed who want to move to get work elsewhere, are all frozen. Mortgage providers are unwilling to lend on what are now seen as distressed assets.

This is a nightmare. We, the Conservatives, are the party that believes in home ownership and has made promises on housing, which I stand behind 100%. I do not like to attack the Government, but this problem does not have negotiating ramifications. It is straightforward and domestic. The Government have a clear duty to minimise the problem and map a way forward out of the morass. Indeed, though they were made for the best of reasons, their statements created the problem in the first place.

My Amendment 2 deals with only a small part of the problem but Rome was not built in a day. Reducing the scope of a problem is worth while; we could do that in this Bill with my noble friend the Minister’s agreement. My thought is that the risk posed by cladding and balconies in low-rise buildings is much less than in high-rise ones. To be blunt, it is easier and quicker to get out if there is a fire, and it seems disproportionate to apply such onerous requirements to low-rise buildings. If we can make clear that buildings below a certain height—with fewer than five storeys, say—will not be covered by future requirements for removal or changes to cladding, that part of the market will be unfrozen, which would be a major step forward. I am open as to how this can be achieved, though limiting the height of buildings to which the new rules will apply is one obvious possibility.

I will also speak to Amendments 20 and 21 on an impact assessment. The Home Office produced an impact assessment as part of the consultation on the proposed new fire safety order, but regrettably not for the Bill itself. It does not touch on the troublesome dynamics that I have raised. It covers familiarisation costs for responsible persons, businesses and the public sector, ongoing assessments and audits by competent individuals and some remedial costs, although my impression is that these are underestimated. The impact assessment quotes a total of more than £2 billion, partly because of the huge number of premises involved, but it is striking that, of the 1.7 million premises on the central estimate, 1.596 million are below 11 metres and 87,000 are below 18 metres—hence my proposal.

When I headed up the deregulation unit—which we named the better regulation unit under its Labour chairman, the noble Lord, Lord Haskins—we were always worried about getting the detail wrong and imposing huge and needless burdens in response to disasters. This, I fear, is a living example; with the distractions of Covid, this could be a prime example of this deplorable tendency.

Further, we all care about fire safety; that is what this Bill is about. My late father-in-law was a fire officer, including during the Blitz. I am a well- known supporter on these Benches of health and safety; I have campaigned on the problem of faulty Whirlpool tumble dryers and worked with the then BEIS Minister responsible to tackle it. Now we must find an urgent way of coping with the terrible problem of the freezing of part of the housing market because of the Government’s statements. This might even be done through an amendment to this popular Bill.

We must find a way through. In pursuit of that, I have three detailed questions for my noble friend the Minister, broadly suggested to me by the National Residential Landlords Association. First, how do the Government propose that risk assessments for buildings of five storeys or fewer be undertaken? Secondly, do the Government agree that for properties with a lower risk, for example smaller properties in multiple occupation, there is scope for the responsible person to be defined as competent to undertake a fire risk assessment? Thirdly, there have been issues regarding the availability of qualified and appropriately insured fire engineers who are able to undertake safety reviews. What assessment has been made about the need to ensure that there are sufficient trained assessors and that professionals have access to insurance so that they can undertake the necessary assessment without concerns for their personal liability?

I very much look forward to the Minister’s comments and the debate. I beg to move.

[Lord Shipley (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I am grateful for these probing amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe. I understand her point: they are clearly important and they help our further consideration of the Bill. In particular, her identification of the need for trained assessors seems extremely important; I think that we will deal with that a little later this afternoon.

Amendment 2 relates to low-rise domestic buildings—that is, those of four storeys or fewer. I am not clear why, because they are lower than a high-risk block, they should be deemed a lower risk. Surely we are trying to stop fires breaking out; that is not related directly to the height of a building. Added to that is the fact that, sometimes, building height is quoted at different levels for different purposes. Sometimes it is done on the basis of height; sometimes it is done on the basis of the number of floors. I would appreciate some greater standardisation so that we do not face discussions on 18 metres or 11 metres, the number of floors and so on.

The noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, said—this is important—that the Government must map a way forward. I hope that the Minister will bring some clarity on this in his response. As the noble Baroness said, it is terribly important not to get the detail wrong. In our consideration of this amendment—as we know, it is a probing amendment—it would be helpful to consider it as part and parcel of our intention to get the detail much better than it has been in the past.

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[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, first, I thank all noble Lords who have participated in this debate, and I am especially grateful to my noble friend Lord Shinkwin for his very moving example. I also express my thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, and the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, for their support.

The Minister has confirmed that discussions are ongoing on insurance, warranties and other issues, which are important, but I point out that those relate largely to the future rather than the past. We have a past problem in this area—I describe it as “frozen”—which is obviously the reason for my probing amendment.

This afternoon, there has been a recognition that there is a problem here. Perhaps I could go backwards, thanking the Minister for his answers. I particularly thank him for his answers on the impact assessment, which were very satisfactory. On the website, you come up first with the impact assessment for the fire safety order, but that is the main impact assessment anyway. I was quoting extensively from it and I think that he will find it very useful, but it shows the volume of premises that we are talking about—those under 18 metres or 11 metres—so we have a problem.

The Government are rightly focusing a lot of attention on high-rise flats. The money that has been made available —I think that well over £1 billion was mentioned—is obviously welcome, and that has been focused on trying to get the cladding sorted as far as possible, because it is a great area of tragedy. However, the point about Committee is that you need to look at the detail of the regulations and make sure that you do not cause problems in other areas. Obviously, fires tend to start at the bottom of buildings—I very much understand that—but I think that you need to look at the risk, and my questions were specifically linked to that. It is a case of trying to make the system as sensible as possible so that, for example, responsible officers can, in appropriate circumstances, carry out risk assessments. At the moment, that does not seem to be happening. It seems that they are not doing it because they are worried and are trying to get in a consultant, and that leads to the “frozen” problem that I described.

I would be very happy to talk further about some of those points and the workstreams that the Government are looking at. I felt that the Minister was saying, “We are going to be very fierce on fire safety and I care about fire safety”, but if a lot of people suffer perverse effects as a result, you have to think about how you are going to help them too, and how you are going to deal with that.

That is why I was slightly disappointed in the response to the amendment. It is only a probing amendment, so the fact that it does not quite work is not surprising. I am not an expert in this area. However, I am an expert in trying to balance consumer and business interests to get sensible regulation through this Chamber by looking at the detail. I would be very happy to help in any way I can to try to make sure that we solve some of these difficulties, either through later amendments or by coming up with something particular here. I emphasise that this issue is urgent; it is not something that can be left for another year.

Amendment 2 withdrawn.

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[The Chairman of Committees (Lord Faulkner of Worcester) (Lab)]

I have had a request to speak from the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, I do not disagree that the amendment should be withdrawn. The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, my noble friend Lady Eaton and the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, have drawn attention to the problem that I raised earlier about leaseholders caught by the Government’s Grenfell-related changes being unable to afford repairs or waking watches and/or unable to sell their properties. In some cases, the leaseholders are joint owners, as my noble friend Minister has just said.

Will my noble friend agree to a meeting to map the way forward before Report? This could look at the options to see whether primary legislation—which I think he is reluctant to pursue—secondary legislation, fire brigade or health and safety guidance or changes to the regulatory codes would work. There has to be a risk assessment and we need to make sure that this is possible.

I have some experience of dealing with these fire difficulties. As noble Lords will recall, this used to be the responsibility of the fire brigade and then it was all changed. I oversaw that transition. I also know from experience in China how wrong you can get things, particularly if you do not consult. I remember that China did not consult on changes to fire safety laws. They were not aware that most modern premises had sprinklers. As someone has already said, sprinklers limit what you have to do with fire safety measures. It is a modern approach.

I should find a meeting helpful, perhaps to limit the number of amendments that it might otherwise be necessary for us to put forward on Report.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for making those points and representing the deep issues faced by consumers. Essentially, there are three. Thousands of leaseholders are facing the terrible situation that their property is valued at nothing. They have put in their life’s savings to buy a property, and they cannot remortgage or move. The pace of remediation has now slowed because of an inability to get assessments carried out by the relevant person or because they do not feel that they have insurance cover to do it. That is another issue. At the same time, because the pace of remediation has been affected, they face interim costs. I pointed out that they could be dramatically reduced, in most instances, by putting in an alarm system.

My noble friend is quite right—I have had these discussions with the insurance industry—that there are great measures, such as sprinklers, that reduce risk and ensure that a building is safer. That is why the Government legislated to put in sprinklers in all new builds above 11 metres. I am happy to meet my noble friend and any other noble Lords on these important issues, because we all share the objective of finding the right approach to deal with these great issues that face many hundreds of thousands of leaseholders in high-rise residential buildings up and down the country.