Children’s Wellbeing and Schools Bill

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Excerpts

Thursday 22nd May 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, I cannot resist picking up on what the noble Baroness, Lady Barran, said about the two children whose approach to education was so different. It happened exactly in my family. What I can tell noble Lords is that, as a parent, it makes life very interesting.

I particularly support the noble Baroness, Lady Spielman, and her Amendment 69. I also take this opportunity to strongly support Clause 4, and I will give two examples of its unbelievable importance. First, when I did the Cleveland child abuse inquiry, it was absolutely obvious that nobody was speaking to anybody—the police, social workers, paediatricians and the psychiatrists. Literally nobody was sharing information about anything.

Okay, that was a very long time ago. However, I was very recently at a conference where we were discussing certain aspects of safeguarding. A senior police officer told me that he was trying to work with Peterborough local authority, which would not speak to him about the issues he wanted to discuss. I have wondered ever since what on earth I could say about it, so I am raising it here today. It was last month that I was being told that.

The real problem is getting people to talk to each other. I understood and listened with great interest to the various problems that the noble Baroness, Lady Barran, raised, but at the end of the day, what really matters is that Clause 4 be agreed to with whatever alterations are necessary, because nothing could be more important than these two things: information sharing and sensible, adequate data.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, I am sorry not to have been able to speak at Second Reading, but I take a great interest in the effectiveness of public services and improving them where we can. I was sorry that there was not much discussion that day of the importance of information-sharing across agencies involved in social care, although the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox of Newport, spoke about it, and we have of course heard eloquently today from the noble Baroness, Lady Spielman, in introducing her amendment.

Of the 12 million children in the UK, about 400,000 are in the social care system, which is far too many. History and avoidable scandals show that in this sector, poor recording and sharing of information, as well as, of course, poor follow-up, are sometimes responsible for failures in our care system, and the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, has borne witness to that again today. This lets down children, young people and the families who are served, and it is bad for social services, which find it harder to recruit, and spend time fighting fires rather than improving people’s lives. As the noble Baroness, Lady Longfield, has already said, intervention needs to be timely.

The fallout from mistakes also increases the ever-rising cost of the system and delays essential appointments and training, so there needs to be much more success in getting things right first time and intervening early enough. All of that means the sharing of information in a timely fashion is critical to the reforms to social care. In scrutinising this Bill, we need to be sure that the system of data collection, use and aggregation to improve the system learns from the best, and we need to understand how much of that will be in subordinate legislation—a question my noble friend Lady Barran has already asked.

I support Amendment 41 and other probing amendments in my noble friend’s name. She is rightly seeking answers to some important questions on consent, on the threshold for information recording and sharing, and on the compliance cost across the many bodies and agencies involved, including, as she said, even childminders.

However, I want to go somewhere different. I read with particular interest page 219 in section 8.8 of Josh McAllister’s Independent Review of Children’s Social Care. The report, I believe, is the inspiration for much of the Government’s reforms. For today’s purposes, the proposal for a national data and technology taskforce is of particular importance. The case study on the positive experience in Bristol, using the Think Family Database, is instructive. It brought together data from 30 sources, including the council, the police, the DfE, the NHS, the DWP and social care itself. That is the kind of joined-up approach we need—and it is happening here and now. I just hope that this is not one of the areas with issues.

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[Baroness Smith of Malvern (Lab)]

My Lords, I rise to speak to the amendments in group six, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Barran. Amendments 44, 47 and 48 seek to require practitioners to keep records of decisions made when processing information under the new information-sharing duty. I completely agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Barran, that documenting such decisions is important for the reasons that she outlined. This principle is already embedded in the non-statutory guidance Information Sharing: Guidance for Practitioners and Managers, as well as in the Information Commissioner’s Office’s A 10 Step Guide to Sharing Information to Safeguard Children, both of which promote clear and proportionate record keeping.

In relation to the points that the noble Baroness made about smaller organisations having to carry this out, I shall read an extract from the non-statutory guidance that I think is helpful. It includes the advice:

“Record the reasons for your information sharing decision, irrespective of whether or not you decide to share information. When another practitioner or organisation requests information from you, and you decide not to share it, be prepared to explain why you chose not to do so. Be willing to reconsider your decision if the requestor shares new information that might cause you to regard information you hold in a new light. When recording any decision, clearly set out the rationale and be prepared to explain your reasons if you are asked”.


Furthermore, data protection legislation includes key principles such as lawfulness, transparency and, crucially, accountability, which require organisations to demonstrate compliance with data protection obligations.

Our plan is, as the noble Baroness surmised, to introduce statutory guidance covering matters such as appropriate record keeping. Agencies must have regard to the guidance in discharging the duty, which further strengthens the position of recording decisions. We think this strikes the right balance by ensuring that audit trails are in place, as she outlined, without placing unnecessary administrative burdens on practitioners who are already, as she said, working under significant pressure. I hope that has reassured the noble Baroness, Lady Barran, and that she will feel able to withdraw the amendment.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

Could the Minister perhaps show us an example of the kind of guidance that is already given to a childminder or a small primary school? Presumably that is going to be enhanced—I think she said that earlier. Are there, say, 30 questions? Is it just a small form? Is there an online option? Generation Z, of course, is increasingly keen to report online.

[Baroness Smith of Malvern (Lab)]

I did read an extract from the non-statutory guidance that already exists, Information Sharing: Advice for Practitioners Providing Safeguarding Services for Children, Young People, Parents and Carers. As I also said, there is the Information Commissioner’s Office’s A 10 Step Guide to Sharing Information to Safeguard Children. I am sure they are 10 straightforward steps.

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On the point about whether it would be possible to produce draft regs alongside this, for the reasons that I have outlined around both the current piloting and the issues that we are working through on that, it probably would be more appropriate for those regulations to be based on the learning that we have from that piloting and from working through those issues. So I am not going to commit to introducing draft regulations alongside this legislation, but I hope I have gone some considerable way towards reassuring the noble Lords about some of the details of the implementation and the scope of what is being proposed here. I hope that noble Lords will therefore feel able to withdraw their amendments.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I have a factual question. How many wrong NHS numbers are there each year, and is there a viable and reliable process for sorting them out?

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[Lord Hampton (CB)]

My Lords, I will be quick. In moving my Amendment 61, I put on record my thanks to Laura Anderson of the National Children’s Bureau, not only for her help on this amendment but for her heroic collating of the many briefings from the children’s charity sector for a group of interested Peers.

We have talked about the SUI a lot. We know that information sharing is urgently needed—we do not need any more serious case reviews to tell us so. We know that when a child is interacting with many different services, it is important these services communicate with each other, particularly in the case of, for example, disabled children who may need the support of health services, as well as special education provision in their school, as was mentioned by my noble friend Lady Finlay of Llandaff.

A single unique identifier can mean a better, more joined up assessment of a child’s needs and a better understanding of the impact that services make on a child’s progress and development. However, this benefit should be considered not just for individual children but children as a population group. A more holistic view of children’s needs across the local area will lead to better commissioning. A more holistic view of children’s outcomes will ensure we can evaluate what interventions work best. Yet currently, the legislation explicitly excludes research studies and evaluation from the mandated purposes of the SUI.

Using an SUI across anonymised, linked datasets could have a transformative effect on identifying risks across cohorts of children and conducting research about service impact. This would not add any considerable risk to children, as the legislation does not change or weaken any existing data protection but states explicitly that the duty to share information does not authorise or require the disclosure of information if the disclosure would contravene data protection legislation. The Government’s intention for the SUI appears focused solely on direct service provision. However, enabling local commissioners and researchers to use anonymised linked datasets could transform our understanding of the impact of particular interventions across traditional service boundaries.

Information is the new gold. We have already seen how relevant and rich data can be used to form policy in education and health, so why not take advantage of this new source of information? There seems to be a lot of saying that they are not going to be databases. Will the Minister define in her answer what she means by databases? I beg to move.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, I very much hope that the NHS number works, so that we can get on with data sharing. When I spoke in an earlier group, I explained the importance of feedback loops in a successful organisation. The amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Hampton, is about using the single unique data system to inform research and commissioning. I think he has a point. The precedent of government-supported HDR UK, which I spoke about in the earlier group, is highly relevant as we found a way to anonymise such data on a consistent basis for research purposes. Indeed, the Minister might find HDR UK a useful collaborator in speeding up her excellent work and avoiding Big Brother fears.

We have heard that the single unique identifier will not be used to create a giant database. I am therefore interested in how the Government can gather aggregated data, for example by NHS trust, social service area, education authority, type of family or medical condition. Examination of such group data can reduce future mistakes and costs, target resources and improve efficiency—all the things that I tend to talk about—and make social services and the police more effective. So I would appreciate an answer about how this can be done if we are ruling out a database—by letter if need be, because it obviously goes slightly beyond the scope of the amendment. I am grateful for all the information that has been given today. It has been very reassuring.

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

My Lords, I rise briefly to support the very good amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Hampton. If we are spending significant amounts of money on collecting this data and building a database and we have some of the best research facilities in the world, it seems to be sensible when looking at longitudinal studies to utilise that data properly.

My second and more prosaic point is that maybe I am missing something, but it seems to me that subsection (5) and subsection (14) are at variance with each other. They are quite loosely drafted in new Section 16LB. Will the Minister comment on that, because the great thing about the noble Lord’s amendment is that it has pointed out that there seems to be a discrepancy between the two subsections?

Visas: European Union Students

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Excerpts

Monday 4th November 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I am not going to pretend that I have, but I will try to get an answer for the noble Baroness.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I congratulate my noble friend on the proposal to extend the time that graduates of UK universities can stay in the UK from four or five months to two years. When is this likely to take place?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I am very happy to accept the congratulations from my noble friend. I understand that the extension will be in place next year.

Retailers: Business Rates

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Excerpts

Monday 8th April 2019 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to reduce business rates on retailers with physical premises so that they are charged less than those which trade online.

[The Minister of State, Department for International Development (Lord Bates) (Con)]

My Lords, business rates are an annual tax on non-domestic property. Bills are based on rateable value, which represents the annual rent the property would achieve if let on the open market, at a set valuation date, as assessed by the Valuation Office Agency.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I refer to my entry in the register of interests. Although anomalies remain, I am grateful for what the Government have done on small business rate relief, but it is not enough given the scale of the challenge in our towns and high streets. Because of the requirement to raise over £30 billion from business rates and the decline in the number of physical shops, the burden of rates is increasing for many retailers. Does the Minister accept that this is no longer appropriate, and that changes in taxation on business property should be carefully considered, perhaps with a freeze on the pernicious multiplier and a move to a framework that is more fit for the 21st century?

[Lord Bates]

My noble friend looked at this area when she was Commercial Secretary to the Treasury. As a result of that review in 2016, a number of changes were made that had a significant impact, such as doubling small business relief from 50% to 100% for those with a value less than £12,000, moving to more frequent revaluations, which were asked for, and moving the multiplier in inflation rates from the RPI to the CPI. All these things are making a difference. It is not that we cannot see the big problems on the high street at the moment, which is why the Chancellor announced his £1.6 billion package in the Budget of 2018.

Female Entrepreneurship

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

I would be happy to do that to expand but, briefly, the thought was that one of the barriers was in female access to venture capital. An interesting study on that identified bias in the system against female entrepreneurs. It therefore came up with some ideas, along with the British Private Equity & Venture Capital Association and Diversity VC, on how that could be addressed. I think we all recognise that the great research and data that we have seen in the report has given us the ideas to think about policy solutions for the future.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I would welcome my noble friend’s views on how we could use networking better. I found this enormously helpful in my own business career. For example, there were female mentors telling me what to do, and what not to do. In leading a female executive network across the world, when I was at Tesco, we used to discuss everything from childcare and juggling it, to how to get pay rises. Also, there is Cancer Research UK’s Race for Life each year; it was in running that that I first met the late Lady Jowell and many other noble Baronesses. These networking occasions really help to build confidence and we should do more for female entrepreneurs.

[Lord Bates]

Indeed, that was one of the things which Alison Rose brought out, as she is doing in her present role, particularly in the finance sector. I pay tribute to my noble friend for being one of the pioneer female directors along with my noble friend Lady O’Cathain, who was one of the first female directors of a British retail bank. Lots more needs to be done, but we are standing on the shoulders of some very impressive people.

Offensive Weapons Bill

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Excerpts

Report: 1st sitting: House of Lords
Tuesday 26th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Goschen]

My Lords, I listened with interest as the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, introduced his amendment. I am sure that all Members of the House are broadly sympathetic to what he seeks to achieve in terms of protecting shop workers. No one should be put in harm’s way through their employment if it can possibly be avoided. I understand what he is driving at with the thrust of the amendment.

I am interested in how the law copes with other circumstances where shop workers and other members of the hospitality trade, such as people in pubs and betting shops, have to make age-related decisions regarding their customers. For example, someone may want to buy a drink or glue, but such products are already age-restricted. I would have thought that similar circumstances to those described by the noble Lord of people being aggravated because they are not being sold those products could arise. It strikes me that there is nothing particularly new, per se, in the circumstances before us in the Bill. When my noble friend the Minister responds to the debate and the noble Lord has the opportunity to respond to her comments, perhaps both of them could consider how the current circumstances work; for example, what happens if a barman has to deny service to someone aged 17 because they have been asked for their identity documents and have produced a fake ID, which I understand is prevalent, and is any specific statutory protection applied to that worker? If not, why should this case be different?

The purpose of my intervention is to understand in rather more detail the current legislative circumstances surrounding people who have to make age-related decisions. My understanding is that younger people are used to being asked for ID; one has to look only in a tobacconist’s or an off-licence to see lots of signs saying that those aged under 21 should be prepared to justify their identity. It seldom happens to me, but it is possible. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, as some noble Lords know, my background is in retail, and I have experience of managing the sale of dangerous objects—such as knives—and of alcohol and glue in shops, as my noble friend mentioned. This is an important issue, and we all have a lot of sympathy with workers in this sector. It is also important that we get it right, and while the issue affects shop workers, it is important to look at it in detail and work out what sectors would be affected. There has been a call for evidence and a meeting of the National Retail Crime Steering Group to look into this matter. It is important to look carefully at these offences, and provide time for interested parties, such as those representing shops, the unions and other stakeholders, to come forward and look at the detail of the arrangements. That makes it difficult, given we have got to Report, to deal with it in this Bill.

We all recognise concerns raised by stakeholders. Indeed, the Bill is about trying to make sure that offensive weapons do not get into the wrong hands. I am sympathetic to more work being done on that, but it is important to look at both legislative and non-legislative options for this sort of proposal. I look forward to hearing my noble friend the Minister’s response to this important amendment.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for speaking to this amendment. I am particularly grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, for his tireless work throughout the Bill to raise awareness of the violence and abuse towards shop workers, often those in small corner shops who are on their own, late at night, with little protection and who face, as my noble friend Lord Goschen pointed out, quite abusive behaviour. I thank the noble Lord and representatives from USDAW for meeting me, and having a constructive discussion about how we can improve protections for shop workers, and whether there are any gaps in both the legislative and the non-legislative space that we can work on. I am concerned for retail staff who do not feel safe when they are carrying out their duties at work. As I have said previously, everyone has the right to feel safe at work.

We had a good debate on this matter in Committee, and I understand the strength of feeling on this issue—I am very sympathetic to it. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, was grateful to have a meeting with the Minister in the other place on this issue as well. Before I outline the Government’s work in this area, I want to be absolutely clear that we do have an extensive legislative framework in place to protect those facing abuse in the workplace. It ranges from civil tools and powers, including civil injunctions to address lower-level anti-social behaviour we often see, to criminal offences including harassment, common assault, assault occasioning actual bodily harm, and threats to kill in some rare cases. Where an offence is committed against a shop worker in the course of carrying out their duties, the courts can, quite rightly, take into account as an aggravating factor the fact that the offence was committed against a person serving the public. That, in part, answers my noble friend Lord Goschen’s point. In addition, the Sentencing Council is due to consult on an updated guideline on assault this summer.

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[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I totally understand the noble Lord’s point. He reminds me at every opportunity and I think that I will have written on my grave the “rogue landlords database”. However, I have to say that bringing forward the call for evidence will expose any gaps in the legislation. I appreciate, and I know that the noble Lord does as well, that we are going through a busy legislative time. However, we will provide opportunities to bring forward legislation should it be needed.

My noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe asked what the evidence will cover. As I have said, this was discussed at the extraordinary meeting of the National Retail Crime Steering Group on 12 February. We want to take into account the group’s feedback and to use the call for evidence to strengthen our evidence about the scale and severity of the issue. As she has said, we hear lots of anecdotal horror stories, but we want to look at the broad evidence. Any abuse of a shop worker while doing their job is absolutely unacceptable, but we want to understand in more detail how frequently people are the victims of serious crime. I turn to the point made by my noble friend Lord Goschen about what sorts of businesses we are talking about. The scope and the direction will be led by the National Retail Crime Steering Group.

We want to use the findings to consider what more we can do to ensure that shop workers have the protections they deserve. That is at the heart of the noble Lord’s point. If the call for evidence shows that there is a gap in the existing criminal law, we will give that serious consideration. The group also discussed the options for strengthening the existing workplan. It includes actions to support staff who report incidents to the police and to improve police recording. We have committed to providing £50,000-worth of funding for a sector-led communications campaign to help raise awareness. We appreciate that there will be a huge spectrum of awareness across the sector.

I am grateful to noble Lords for their work in raising awareness of the challenges faced by shop workers and indeed I am grateful to the representatives of USDAW who have taken the time to articulate these issues to me. I hope that our commitment to exploring this issue further through the call for evidence and the wider work being taken forward by the Home Office will reassure the noble Lord that we are taking the concerns raised about this issue very seriously. The fact remains, though, that until we have had the call for evidence and we have studied the responses, there is not sufficient existing evidence to support the need for any new offence as provided for in the amendment.

I hope that the noble Lord will be content to withdraw his amendment. I know that in taking time to raise these concerns with me that he is not trying to be troublesome. He is addressing a real concern from the retail industry and I hope that we can work together on this.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

I wonder whether my noble friend could comment on who sits on the National Retail Crime Steering Group if that is going to be important in carrying forward this work. I presume that the retailers’ unions will be represented, along with the police and other relevant people. If she is not able to answer the question, it would be helpful to have that information by way of follow-up because I think that there is a consensus across the House that it would be good to find a way forward in this area. However, we will want to make sure that the legislation covers the right areas and carries the right penalties.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Representatives of USDAW are part of the steering group along with staff from large retail organisations right down to small shop owners. It is important that we have a wide range of representation from organisations so that we can see the full spectrum of exactly what issues are involved. I am aware of my noble friend’s past employment with Tesco. Somehow I had assumed that a big organisation would suffer less abuse because the shops are covered by security officers, but that is not necessarily the case. I have witnessed this myself in big retail organisations, and to improve our understanding, we need representation from across the spectrum of those retail companies.

Trade Bill

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Excerpts

Committee: 4th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 4th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, 80% of the UK economy—in fact, I think the figure is 85%—comprises services. I support the noble Lords, Lord Stevenson and Lord Purvis, in bringing forward this probing amendment although, for the reasons given by my noble friend Lord Lansley, I am not convinced that we should change the Bill and make ourselves rule-takers on services. If noble Lords will allow, I would like to keep the issue of the free movement of people separate. The question is: do we lose as much from losing the single market on services? It is not very well developed at all. I know this because I tried to cut down barriers on services within the EU when I led the presidency work in BEIS in 2016.

Last week the Chancellor spoke at the UK Finance dinner, which I attended. I was sorry as a result of that—the timing was unhelpful—to miss the last group of amendments, of which mine formed part. The Chancellor talked about liberalising trade in services—a sort of WTO services round—going forward. Of course, this would also extend to the European Union if it were to happen.

I have two questions about services for my noble friend the Minister, the answers to which will help me when we consider the Bill on Report. First, can he elaborate on the Chancellor’s idea, or emerging Treasury ideas, of doing something on services beyond the European Union, which would help us in the European Union as well? Secondly, can he confirm that the Government’s proposed deal—the withdrawal agreement or the political declaration—would not get in the way of bilateral deals with third countries on services, given that the multilateralism that I love is very hard going? In other words, would we be able to conclude a deal with the US—again, very tough—or, perhaps more realistically, with the emerging and already emerged countries of Asia, where we are now selling a lot of services and where it seems that aligning some of the rules on services could be extremely valuable?

[The Minister of State, Department for International Development (Lord Bates) (Con)]

My Lords, on behalf of all those who have spoken, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Stevenson and Lord Purvis, for bringing forward Amendment 45, the purpose of which is to provide an opportunity for the Government to put some remarks on the record about our approach to services which, as we all agree, is of crucial importance. So, before coming to some of the specific questions that have been raised during this short debate, I will take advantage of that opportunity to set out the Government’s position as it now stands.

As my noble friends Lady McIntosh and Lady Neville-Rolfe, and indeed the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, said, the UK’s services economy is a global success story. Our internationally competitive industries play host to world-leading firms as well as thriving small and medium-sized enterprises, and we have undertaken significant engagement with the sector on issues related to EU exit.

I would like to reassure the House that the Government are seeking arrangements for services and investment that cover all modes of service supply—my noble friend Lord Lansley correctly referred to the variations; that provide substantial sectoral coverage, including measures on professional business services, which my noble friend Lady McIntosh referred to; that go well beyond both sides’ WTO commitments as set out in the General Agreement on Trade in Services, which my noble friend Lord Lansley also mentioned; and that build on the provisions in existing EU agreements.

Moreover, through the political declaration we have secured a commitment from the EU 27 that our future trading relationship will be ambitious, comprehensive and balanced, and will include market access commitments to ensure that service suppliers and investors do not face quantitative restrictions such as monopolies, economic needs tests or joint venture requirements, which my noble friend Lord Hamilton expressed concern about; national treatment commitments, to ensure that UK service suppliers and investors are not discriminated against by the EU 27 and vice versa, as my noble friend Lady McIntosh referred to; new arrangements on financial services, grounded in economic partnership, providing greater co-operation and consultation than is possible under existing third country frameworks; appropriate measures on the recognition of qualifications, as referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, to support UK professionals practising in the EU 27 and vice versa; arrangements that allow for temporary entry and stay in each other’s territories for business purposes, including visa-free travel for short-term visits, as the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, rightly identified from his extensive work examining the internal market as a member of the Select Committee; and mechanisms to promote voluntary regulatory co-operation to guard against the introduction of unnecessary barriers to services, trade and investment, to which my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe referred. I pay tribute to the work that she did at BEIS in seeking to remove those barriers.

We have also been clear that after we leave the EU, the UK will have an independent trade policy covering all aspects of goods and services. To deliver that objective, it will be important to retain regulatory freedom where it matters most for the UK’s services-based economy.

I turn to some of the points that have been raised.

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[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

Can my noble friend clarify the point about services and goods? I asked whether we would be able to continue to do deals on services if we had a tight agreement—a customs union or whatever —with the EU. He was saying that goods and services tend to be linked in trade agreements and are never separate. Would that mean that we could not have services agreements, assuming we got something quite tight on goods? That would obviously be a problem. I know that they are linked—often, the service for your car and the computer in it are as important as the car itself—but I had seen them as distinct in the WTO. If my noble friend could write to me on that, I would be very interested.

[Lord Bates]

I will be glad to do so. In a lot of such agreements, especially for the major manufacturers, the bulk of the value of the trade or the deal is the service package and the support provided thereafter. I will be very happy to write to my noble friend ahead of Report.

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[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering]

My Lords, I am grateful for this opportunity to debate whether Clause 9 and Schedule 4 should stand part of the Bill. I just want to raise one or two points that, as my noble friend the Minister will recall, arose during our meeting way back in October or November, for which I was extremely grateful.

I tabled my opposition to the clause and schedule immediately after Second Reading because a number of issues relating to the role and powers of the Trade Remedies Authority arise from the increasing threat from the volume of imported products. I am particularly concerned about bricks, tiles and ceramics due to my interest in, for example, the York brick company, which I had the honour to work with as the local MP. These products emanate from potentially unsustainable sources, often from developing countries, and they are having a negative impact on our domestic production, as seen through the latest retaliatory tariffs from the US and, subsequently, China. I have some general and some specific comments that I wish my noble friend to respond to. I am particularly grateful to the Law Society of Scotland for raising these issues.

Paragraph 12 of the report of the Select Committee on the Constitution sets out the concern that there is a singular lack of detail on the functions and powers of the Trade Remedies Authority and that enormous discretion is given to the Secretary of State in relation to the constitution of this body, the appointment of its members and its operations. In particular, I draw my noble friend’s attention to the committee’s conclusion that,

“in constitutional terms, creating and empowering an important public body in such a manner is inappropriate”.

In connection with Clause 9 and Schedule 4, can my noble friend indicate the length of appointment for members of the Trade Remedies Authority, and do the Government envisage these appointments being renewable and for a similar length of term? If we are inviting people to serve on this body, it is important that they are at least given security of tenure. That goes to the heart of their independence and impartiality, and it would detract somewhat from the ministerial discretion that currently lies with the Secretary of State. Under what conditions would the Government envisage the office of an official serving under the Trade Remedies Authority becoming inappropriate and how could it be removed? It would help the Committee to know that.

In addition, perhaps I may confirm with my noble friend that, in connection with the injury calculation which is the outcome of the Trade Remedies Authority’s conclusions, the regulation will be laid before the House by the affirmative rather than negative procedure.

I am sure that my noble friend does not need me to rehearse the importance of the bricks, tiles and ceramics industry. A total of 2.5 million people overall are employed in the UK manufacturing sector, and this is a very strong part of that industry. As regards ceramics covering tableware and tiles in particular, these have already been affected—or one could say protected—by the two EU trade remedies in place for ceramics. It is important to give a message to the industry this evening that we will create in the Bill similar provisions to those that exist in the European Union at present.

Can my noble friend the Minister confirm that the injury calculation will be by affirmative procedure and—as some of the Commons amendments did not cover this point on the economic interest and public interest tests—that the Government will put on record how these tests will be interpreted in court and by the authority going forward? This is purely intended as probing. I obviously wish Clause 9 and Schedule 4 to remain part of the Bill, but I wanted to make some of these general points before we go on to discuss the amendments in the next grouping.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

My Lords, I have some sympathy with my noble friend Lady McIntosh of Pickering but for a quite different reason. As I said all those months ago at Second Reading, we need a highly professional team to look after the UK’s trade interests, but I am not convinced that we need a new authority separate from the trade department. I may be out of date, but my recollection is that the work in Brussels is done by the Directorate-General for Trade, not by a special agency—and it seems to get along very well, as we keep hearing.

I might not be able to convince my noble friend the Minister, but I emphasise that the proposed body must be of a very special type. The agency, if we must have it, should be run by people who are independent-minded with Civil Service values, not representatives of any particular stakeholder sector. Such people must be able to stand up to the vested interests who will approach them in the way that they approach Brussels under the current arrangements. I remember lobbying DG Trade on bra quotas in Brussels. I have to say that I was one of many very fluent stakeholders interested in the cargos that were sitting on the sea and not arriving in the shops in Britain.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, we are dealing with a clause stand part amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh. But she and the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, have raised a number of points that actually come in the next group. I wonder if for the convenience of the House we should merge these groups and hear now the speech by my noble friend Lord McNicol, which I have had the privilege of seeing. It covers much the same ground as that covered by the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, and the noble Baroness, Lady Brown, will probably come in on the ceramics aspects. It might be easier to finish this group together, so I suggest that my noble friend Lord McNicol speaks next.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Purvis of Tweed]

My Lords, I wish to make two brief points in this large but important grouping. The first is in response to the point made by the noble Baroness and my noble friend Lord Fox. When the Secretary of State spoke at Second Reading of this Bill in the other place, he indicated that the Government’s position on the anti-dumping remedies regime would be public long before we considered this Bill. We are, to some extent, debating blind in not knowing what the Government’s proposals are. That is regrettable, so if the Minister can give some clarification, that would be very helpful.

The second point is really stimulated by the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, and the noble Lord, Lord Lansley: why are the Government continuing with Schedule 4 as it is currently drafted? As the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, said, the proposal would have been that the Secretary of State would appoint the chair of the TRA and then the chair would appoint the chief executive —that is in Schedule 4(2)(1)(a) and Schedule 4(2)(1)(c). If no chair had been appointed, the Secretary of State would appoint. In the Government’s Statement on 26 October, they announced the appointment of both the chair designate and the chief executive designate at the same time. I do not know how that interacts with this legislation, and on what basis the chief executive designate was appointed. I am not questioning those two individuals. If the intention was to have a truly independent body, the fact that the first chair had been the UK Trade & Investment representative raises some questions. I am not questioning the quality of the appointments. However, I am not sure how the fact that the announcement of both appointments was made on the same day interacts with the Bill, and on what basis both the chair and the chief executive were appointed as designate at the same time. As the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, said, either that is not consistent with the Bill, so the Government acted beyond how they said they would act, or perhaps we should just delete this aspect in its entirety for the sake of neatness.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

On Amendment 101A, I agree with proposed new subsection 1(c), where you have,

“a chief executive appointed by the Chair with the approval of the Secretary of State or, if the first Chair has not been appointed, by the Secretary of State”.

The latter has already happened, so, as the noble Lord said, that becomes redundant. However, I am not convinced that all the executive members should be appointed by the chair without reference to Ministers. I have been involved in lots of appointments in different bodies over time, and the fact of the matter is that normally appointments are put forward and are approved ministerially, and this helps make the appointments sensible, enduring and independent.

For the same reason, I do not agree with the suggestion of the noble Baroness, Lady Brown, that we should require representatives of different groups. I can see exactly what she is trying to achieve, which is to have good, sensible people who would care about economics, people and devolved Administrations. However, my own experience is that if you restrain yourself in this way, you find that you are looking for somebody who has to be in a specific category, maybe there is nobody of quality at that time—especially as the pay rates in quangos are quite low compared with other opportunities for these people—and you get yourself into difficulty. I would favour simplicity, and independence achieved by having a separate agency, whatever my views may be on that.

[Baroness Fairhead]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their contributions to this debate. In particular, I thank my noble friend Lady McIntosh for the first grouping, and the noble Lord, Lord McNicol, for the second. I confess that I was grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, for helping me merge these two groupings, but I was probably even more grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Brown, for saying that she would not extend that to the next grouping as well.

I will try to address these as best I can, given the significant number of elements that were raised. Clearly, a key priority of the Government is to help businesses expand their global presence. However, while we work to help increase exports, we must ensure—I hear complete agreement on this around the Committee—that our domestic industries are shielded from the damaging effects of unfair trading practices and unexpected surges in imports. That is exactly why the Government are setting up the new Trade Remedies Authority—TRA—to give that safety net to businesses, which is provided for by Clause 9 and Schedules 4 and 5.

My noble friend Lady McIntosh of Pickering asked how this related to the Constitution Committee’s report. I can confirm that the Government have responded to that report. The main functions and powers of the TRA are set out in the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act, and setting up the body, as we are doing in this Trade Bill, is normal practice.

Free trade does not mean trade without rules. The WTO allows its members to provide a safety net, which we are doing. This safety net usually takes the form of an increase of duty on imports of specific goods following an investigation. Trade remedies, as these increased duties are known, are vital to level the playing field and restore our competitive balance. That is critical in areas such as ceramics, steel, and a number of other sectors. Failing to put the trade remedy function in place would have a damaging effect on those industries and the UK economy more widely, and we cannot let that happen.

As several noble Lords have mentioned, this is currently an EU competence. Investigations, decisions and monitoring are carried out by the EU Commission on behalf of EU member states. Once the UK leaves the EU, the European Commission will no longer perform those functions. That is why we are creating the TRA. This will ensure that we can continue to provide that safety net and help protect the 2.5 million people who work in the ceramics industry, for example. The framework for our trade remedy system is set out in the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act 2018. My officials worked with UK industry, including the ceramics and steel industries, during the development of that framework.

My noble friend Lady McIntosh asked about secondary legislation on injury calculations. The detail of the technical assessments of the TRA will be set out in secondary legislation under the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act. This has already been passed by the other place, which agreed that the negative procedure is the appropriate scrutiny mechanism.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I read that a few moments ago and now I have lost it. I think it is on the merits and on the process. To that extent, because this is a probing amendment, I will not push this too hard and it is for the Government to decide. In my limited experience in your Lordships’ House, every time that I have led on a Bill we have come up against this question of what an appeal actually means. I have detected that the Government have gradually been moving away from merits-based appeals, because they seem to take up an awful lot of time, and argue that appeals done simply on a JR basis are becoming increasingly softer-edged, rather than being simply about the process. Therefore, the two come together and the legislation has tended towards being purely on the procedural elements.

I retain the rather purer view that there should always be an appeal system in some way, in which case it should not simply be limited to the procedures because that just restarts the clock. It should also include merits. But that is a matter for the Government to consider. The question was: if, in the other place, the Secretary of State has confirmed that there would be an appeal system, what is it and can we please have it clearly explained before we get to Report?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

Has the noble Lord considered whether one could have an appeal to the courts? Of course, on the EU model that we were discussing earlier, the appeal is to the ECJ.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I will get through this very quickly and then questions can flow in. Amendment 85, which has already been accepted, therefore sets out an appeals process for the Government to respond to. Amendment 86 relates to how these are disposed of and the procedures for that. The two go together and will be difficult to separate, but again the Government must take that forward.

We have already had reference to how recommendations from the TRA for action or no action would be based on two issues—an economic interest test and a public interest test—but we do not have any definition of those. They are obviously good ideas and sensible approaches, around which decisions can be placed, but the narrow question of what they constitute and, more importantly, how they would be kept in scope with how people’s views change over time, is not dealt with in the Bill. Therefore, Amendment 87, which deals with the public interest test, and Amendment 88, which deals with the economic interest test, set out not so much the detail of what they consist of but the process under which they might be organised.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Earl of Kinnoull]

My Lords, I do not want to comment on the two amendments I have signed. I want to urge some support for the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara. I have in front of me Article 13 of the 1994 agreement which supplements Article VI of GATT. Entitled “Judicial Review”, it says:

“Each Member whose national legislation contains provisions on anti-dumping measures shall maintain judicial, arbitral or administrative tribunals or procedures for the purpose, inter alia, of the prompt review of administrative actions relating to final determinations and reviews of determinations within the meaning of Article 11”.


It then goes on to say that the tribunal must be independent of the authorities that have made the determination. It is an international obligation for there to be exactly what the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, proposes in his amendments. I think we need to pick that up and put it in the Bill.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

My Lords, I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, for interrupting him. Of course, there is a requirement to have proper appeals, as has just been elegantly explained by the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, but I was interested in whether they had to be the subject of special tribunals or whether they could in fact be fitted into the existing court system. My main concern as a former business person is with speed. Sometimes tribunals, public interest tests and so on can be a field day for lawyers and the whole thing can take a very long time. That is not what we want. We want to be able to make sure that the interests of our industries and other players are properly protected.

[Lord Lansley]

The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, is absolutely right that the economic interest test is present in both Schedules 4 and 5 to the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act. As set out there, the test seems to me to be capable of being, and is required under the legislation to be, taken down to the level of individual industries, looking specifically at affected industries and consumers and the likely impact on particular geographic areas or particular groups. It seems to me that the economic interest test is already capable of being disaggregated in the ways that the noble Lord is calling for.

The noble Lord and I have joined together on the issue of the public interest test in the past. I am not sure that you can define it in advance—that is the difficulty with it. Trying to write down what public interest the Secretary of State has to weigh up seems to be intensely difficult, as distinct from the economic interest test. It might include defence industries and security interests, and we see that coming through in relation to competition. We also see it in broadcasting and competition regimes. There are a range of competition-specific public interests, and I do not think that we are necessarily looking to restrict the test in that way in this legislation. Frankly, we might be better off simply looking at it and, if there are particular public interests that have to be protected as time goes on, we should perhaps have the power to add to them by way of regulation, as is the case with competition legislation.

Police Funding Settlement

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Excerpts

Thursday 13th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend on this welcome investment in policing at strategic and local level, because both are important. I very much endorse her words of gratitude at this Christmas season for brave police men and women in our country.

I have two questions. Does my noble friend agree that better use can be made of digital techniques and information sharing in the fight against crime and in improving value for money in policing? Good digital methods can help to make money go further. Secondly, can she accelerate the cross-party work that she mentioned on offensive weapons, given the appalling incidence of knife crime that we see up and down the country and in the newspapers far too often?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank my noble friend for those questions. Her first point was about better use of digital techniques. In all the efficiency discussions that we have had with the police, that is one of the most important things. The advent of new technology means that the police can spend more time out on the streets fighting crime. As more efficient police services engage with this type of technology, we will see that realised in more police time.

My noble friend makes a good point about a cross-party approach to the Offensive Weapons Bill, which I look forward to discussing across the House. I know that we will have a constructive discussion about that before we debate the Bill and I look forward to hearing from her at Second Reading and beyond, and to her engagement in the process.

Economy: Budget Statement

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Excerpts

Tuesday 13th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interests in the register in a number of businesses that would benefit from a strong economy. As his predecessor on the Front Bench, I also express my sympathy for my noble friend the Minister in the testing task of responding to quite so many different concerns.

It is always difficult to know where to focus on these occasions and, in particular, whether to tackle the macroeconomic picture or microeconomics. Today I will devote myself to macroeconomics, with a couple of riders.

On the big picture, I want to lend my voice to those who say we are by no means out of the woods yet. The inheritance of the financial crisis and its dismal treatment by the then Labour Government lives on. Debt is now growing more slowly than GDP, albeit only just. However, we have not solved our fiscal problems; by declaring an early end to austerity and spending over £100 billion, the Chancellor has reduced his ability to cope with a crisis or a downturn. At the same time, he has promised another, tougher Budget if it is needed because of Brexit. If adopted, this would mean that we would have to impose expenditure cuts or increase taxes at a time when uncertainty will be rife and people will be blaming one another. This seems peculiar. What happened to prudence? A helpful Library Note tells us the worrying answer: the OBR expected debt to fall from the 2016-17 peak of 85.2 % of GDP to 83.8 % in the current financial year and then to 74.1% in 2023-24. Its graph shows that, as recently as 2001-02, debt was well below 30% of GDP. There is still a risk that overweening debt will cripple our grandchildren.

Our economic situation is comparatively weak and, to move on, I agree with the Red Book that the sustainable way to boost economic growth and prosperity is to increase productivity. The Chancellor chose to spend less time on this than usual, suggesting it had gone down the agenda. The truth is that, although there has been a slight ticking up recently, productivity has disappointed overall since the financial crisis and today’s ONS figures are a further wake-up call. The ONS statistical bulletin suggests that the usual spurt back to the trend rate of growth has not happened, perhaps because of a combination of hours per worker rising and weak output growth. My take is that it may also be due to a lack of the dynamism in new sectors such as we saw in information and financial services in the 1990s and in the noughties. Chapter 4 of the Red Book sets out most of the areas that can change the paradigm—innovation, investment, new technology, education and skills, and regional growth—but it is bitty. On current plans, as paragraph 1.13 says, productivity growth is expected to be 0.9% in 2020 and 1.2% in 2023. The trouble is that this is poor by historic standards, and the international comparisons are not encouraging. So what do we need to do?

First, I would point to enterprise, ambition and focus. I am clear that we need a more supportive approach to enterprise in this country. Sadly, both parties often kick business, and the immediate response to a problem is often to announce further regulation. The impact on economic dynamism and the huge costs cut into profitability and raise consumer prices. This appears to be barely considered in many government circles. Impact assessments are largely ignored, and the section of the Red Book on regulation is all about new interventions and controls. We need a change of attitude and a supportive climate for enterprise, especially for smaller businesses. After all, it is the taxes paid by businesses and their employees that pay for schools, welfare, the NHS and the rest of it. All that said, the Conservatives, however bad, are never likely to challenge the anti-business sentiment of a Corbyn-led Labour Party.

Secondly, there is investment. The Government are right to continue to set aside money for R&D, for infrastructure—as was rightly emphasised by my noble friend Lord Gadhia in his interesting speech—and for tech investment, and to do this right across the UK, for example in the northern powerhouse. The new metropolitan mayors can also be a really dynamic force and use government funding to leverage private investment. Private investment is in the doldrums because of Brexit and the helpful increased allowances announced in the Budget might, I think, encourage a post-Brexit bounce as businesses begin to spend the money sitting on their balance sheets. However, I am a bit depressed about the time that it takes in government to spend investment money. Broadband rollout has been disappointingly slow, and I just hope that we do not see the same delays with full fibre to premises and 5G mobile. I would add that I believe we have, for generations, been bad at infrastructure planning. When I stand on a crowded Tube—an increasingly common experience—I think back to the clear cost-benefit numbers that I remember as a case study in the university library and being told that the Treasury was against the proposed construction of the Victoria line, which is now obviously so vital.

Thirdly, we come to education, skills and management. The biggest long-term driver of productivity growth and international competitiveness is education. We inherited a disastrous situation, but I am glad to see the improvement in many schools, especially in London, thanks to Teach First, the introduction of phonics and the dynamic of competition from free schools and academies. However, the international PISA scores of 70 countries recorded by the OECD are depressing. We are still stuck at 27th for maths, 21st for reading and a better 17th for science. I am particularly concerned about the weakness of vocational education. The apprenticeship levy was meant to usher in a new German or Swiss-style dawn, but in fact so far it has increased business costs and reduced overall numbers. Therefore, I was very glad to learn of the review by the Exchequer Secretary and the Minister for Apprenticeships. I ask the Government to learn from employers big and small how to make this work. For many, including the board on which I sit, the levy is just a tax.

Finally, I would like to say something about retail, where I spent the heart of my career. It is a job creator and gives young people the chance to be part of a team and reach their potential in ways never imagined. It is a wonderful engine for social mobility, as Sir Terry Leahy reminded some of us again last week in a speech celebrating 30 years of Retail Week—the legacy of its first editor, my noble friend Lady Wheatcroft.

The Budget was a disappointment for retailers because the unfairness of the rating system was not tackled. The £940 million-worth of relief over two years for rates paid by small businesses was of course extremely welcome, but it is not transformational. With a very uncertain consumer outlook—confirmed by weaker advertising sales—margins are under pressure, and I had hoped for a bigger initiative. I commend the Chancellor for proposing a tax on the digital companies that are wrecking the high street, but here again it is perhaps too low and too slow.

In conclusion, I return to my central message. The Budget was a risky one. Let us hope that my worries are unfounded.

ONS New Crime Statistics

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Excerpts

Friday 20th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I have said that the Government recognise the genuine increase in serious, violent crimes. I have talked about our serious violence strategy. This very week my honourable friend in another place, Victoria Atkins, will be going out to schools to talk about the initiative #knifefree and the importance of young people not getting drawn into knife crime. We have a number of initiatives around this, including Operation Sceptre. I have outlined not only the funding settlement for this year but the Home Secretary’s priority for the next spending round, because he recognises the sheer strain that police have been put under—the changing face of the types of crime that people are committing and, of course, the strain that they have been under in terms of terrorist attacks. I will say something about police numbers in relation to serious violence. At the national level, most types of serious violence were far higher in 2000, with higher police numbers compared with the 1950s and 1960s, when police numbers were far lower. That is not to denigrate the points made about the police and the pressure they are under. I take this opportunity to thank the police for the very important work they do in keeping our communities safe.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, I endorse what my noble friend says about the great work done by the police. I am particularly concerned about the position in London, particularly in relation to knife crime. Does she feel that there is more that the mayor and his team could do to help in the fight against this appalling crime?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My noble friend makes a very valid point. Many people have pointed to the increase in knife crime and moped crime around London. This is not solely a job for the police: elected people such as the Mayor of London have their part to play. As I say, there are a number of initiatives going on in this area. The police are doing some incredible work, but everyone has their part to play.

Amesbury Incident

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Excerpts

Thursday 5th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank my noble friend for making that point. Perhaps the media should have guarded against naming the couple in the first place before their families had been informed, which is the reason that the Government have not named the couple. I have read all sorts of things in the media over the past 24 hours. Thank goodness I do not get my briefings from the media, else we might have heard all sorts of nonsense across the Dispatch Box this afternoon. I totally support a free press, but my noble friend is right: this reporting has been irresponsible.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I thank my noble friend and noble Lords on all sides of the House for expressing their support for the emergency services, who do such an amazing job in the circumstances. I especially endorse Salisbury hospital and its A&E. As a resident near Salisbury I have used it often and thought it was brilliant with the Skripals—to have the expertise in these awful weapons of mass destruction, which I think meant that they saved the lives of that wretched couple. I very much wish that the latest unfortunate incident will have a similarly good outcome.

I want to ask a different question about Salisbury itself. My noble friend mentioned that some things have been done to try to alleviate the hit on the shops and market of Salisbury from the incident, but I go there every Saturday. There are lots of closed shops. There was some help with parking. Can she either give us a little more detail or ask the MHCLG to write to us with details of what has been done for the people of Salisbury and may be done in future, because this is a double whammy?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I join my noble friend in paying tribute to the emergency services. It must be very frightening to go in to assist, knowing that this substance is so deadly, but trying to save lives at the same time. I agree with her that Salisbury hospital has done an incredible job saving the lives of the Skripals, and I hope it will save the lives of the couple involved in this incident.

I will ask the MHCLG to write to my noble friend about how it has helped the local economy following the previous incident and how it intends to bring confidence back to a place which must have been really badly shaken by this latest incident. She is absolutely right: help is badly needed for the town to get back on its feet.